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Old 12-22-2015, 06:56 AM   #81
BRENT in 10-uh-C
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Default Re: Not much demand for Model As at any price or is it antique cars in general?

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As time passes there probably be less and less demand. How is the demand for model T's
My opinion of your firearm analogy may be flawed. Put a firearm out in a cold, damp garage or barn and see how it deteriorates. On the flip side, put a Model-A inside your clean, climate-controlled house and see how well it does!

With regard to Model-Ts, ...their demand is likely just as strong, -if not stronger than the As are. There are 3 major contributing factors for the steady interest level. 1st, the pricing level is of such where they are affordable for any pocketbook. Generally speaking, the older the year model, the more $$ they fetch. For example, where a '27 Touring may be worth $7.5k, an '09 Touring is worth $50k. This allows an enthusiast to easily find one in their price range.
2nd, most Model-T owners are less 'picky' about how authentic their car is, -and more forgiving of their fellow T-owners unauthentic car. Many (i.e.: most) Model-A restorers are quick to "judge" another Model-A to see what is correct and what is not. 3rd, the Model-T clubs have done a great job of promoting touring with the family, and as such, it is easier to get a younger family involved in the hobby. As such, you often see 2 and sometimes 3 generations all on a Model-T tour together.
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Old 12-22-2015, 10:14 AM   #82
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Default Re: Not much demand for Model As at any price or is it antique cars in general?

Autoweek lists the best and worst cars for appreciation/depreciation. Model A's are neutral.


http://autoweek.com/article/classic-...n=awdailydrive
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Old 12-22-2015, 10:31 AM   #83
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Default Re: Not much demand for Model As at any price or is it antique cars in general?

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Can it be that our young sprouts are too busy with their phones to care about our hobby? Perhaps they are drunk on entertainment, and it's just TOO HARD to work on vintage cars or read a book? Or am I just being cynical?
You're not being cynical at all. Last summer our school took a group of high school kids that were in French class, to France. Plenty to see there in the way of history. Anyway one of the chapperones told us that whenever she would look around the bus, NOT ONE SINGLE kid was looking out the window at the scenery or thinking about what they were visiting. EVERY single one had their nose stuck in an I-Phone laughing and showing each other things they had found. Finger swiping and tapping the phone screen. Not one paid any attention to why they were there.

Pathetic.
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Old 12-22-2015, 10:32 AM   #84
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Default Re: Not much demand for Model As at any price or is it antique cars in general?

Notice how the "decreases" were in your average cars, while the "increase" were in Porsche, Aston Martin, Ferrari and Lamborghini

This tells me the "increases" were driven by big money, disposal money, and not your average Joe collectors disdain for pre-war or classic vehicles, and there are way way more Average Joe's then there are the richy Rich collectors, this indicates a slump in the funds available to the average Joe to buy the collector/hobby car.
I still see this as an economic issue rather then a demand/desirability issue.
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Old 12-22-2015, 10:41 AM   #85
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Default Re: Not much demand for Model As at any price or is it antique cars in general?

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I still see this as an economic issue rather then a demand/desirability issue.
Bingo!
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Old 12-22-2015, 10:42 AM   #86
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Default Re: Not much demand for Model As at any price or is it antique cars in general?

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Notice how the "decreases" were in your average cars, while the "increase" were in Porsche, Aston Martin, Ferrari and Lamborghini

This tells me the "increases" were driven by big money, disposal money, and not your average Joe collectors disdain for pre-war or classic vehicles, and there are way way more Average Joe's then there are the richy Rich collectors, this indicates a slump in the funds available to the average Joe to buy the collector/hobby car.
I still see this as an economic issue rather then a demand/desirability issue.
You make a good point Keith and are probably correct to a large degree.

If you want to read some startling news about the forecasted American economy check out Malcolm Berko's thoughts on where we are heading because of what has been happening the last few years. The spring of 2017 is going to be the start of some pretty rough times for most of us. Granted Economics is a blurred 'science' but Malcolm Berko has been pretty accurate in all the years I've read his columns in the papers. Hope he's wrong on this one
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Old 12-22-2015, 10:46 AM   #87
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Default Re: Not much demand for Model As at any price or is it antique cars in general?

I can see another big depression coming, like a car down a dusty road (hard to miss), maybe that's why I got me a Model A, if we are going into a depression...might as well dress the part.
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Old 12-22-2015, 10:48 AM   #88
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Old 12-22-2015, 11:06 AM   #89
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Default Re: Not much demand for Model As at any price or is it antique cars in general?

Interesting thread. I agree, I think demand is sluggish for them. I had a conversation with some guys in the MAC club yesterday and it seems like most people will buy the cars they grew up with. For the most part now, thats baby boomers and muscle cars. I really hope demand doesnt fall off as those who grew up with the model A begin to become more scarce. Honestly I would have not thought to buy one unless there was already one in the family, which was the case. Us gen xers grew up with cars that are basically sedans, [read as Camry and Civic] so we have to go back a few decades to find something of interest.
That said, they are approaching 100 years old in the next few decades, and I do suspect that will mean something for the value. My value is in family ownership, but it may never reach appreciated financial value. They also turn heads on a dime, which is of interest. When mine was unloaded 3 people working in lawn service stood in reverence, mouths agape.
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Old 12-22-2015, 04:56 PM   #90
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Default Re: Not much demand for Model As at any price or is it antique cars in general?

This is an endless debate and there is truth to most everything that has been written.

I see both positives and negatives. The Model A community has two excellent and very active clubs, which means there are lots of Model A owners out there. There are also a number of suppliers for parts and all manner of publications to tell you how to work on the cars. A fabulous resource. Most Model A owners are getting pretty old, but there are younger people coming along who are buying the cars. Not a lot, but a few. My 27 y.o. son loves my Model As and loves working on them, but he is one of the few of his cohort group, it seems.

Tastes do change. The antique market is pretty soft. Some things, like china and furniture, don't bring good prices. I had a nice set of old Haviland china from an estate and I asked the appraiser what it might bring? It would be good for target practice, he said. Younger people don't want anything that can't be put in a microwave or a dish washer.

I am a child of the 60s and my first driveable car was a 56 Chevy. I liked the car, but I have little interest in buying a replacement.

I bought my first Model A since I was a teenager in the last few years when I had time, some spare cash and a garage to keep it in. I see a few guys in their 50s starting to buy them plus a few in their 30s. We will see what happens. None of us has much control over this other than sharing our enthusiasm for these cars and teaching people about them.
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Old 12-22-2015, 05:17 PM   #91
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Default Re: Not much demand for Model As at any price or is it antique cars in general?

In my case, this is my retirement project. I was lucky to get my Model A for free. I will never get back what I am putting into it. Oh well, it sure is a cool project!!!!!
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Old 12-22-2015, 06:47 PM   #92
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Default Re: Not much demand for Model As at any price or is it antique cars in general?

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In my case, this is my retirement project. I was lucky to get my Model A for free. I will never get back what I am putting into it. Oh well, it sure is a cool project!!!!!
Free?...Free you say?

How about you sell it to me and I will double your money...guaranteed
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Old 12-23-2015, 07:29 AM   #93
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Default Re: Not much demand for Model As at any price or is it antique cars in general?

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My opinion...and this comes from a recent lengthy conversation with a gentleman in the business of buying and selling antique cars...He said the people out there that have the money to pay top dollar for cars are either older people, or guys who don't have time to work on cars all the time and want something they can get in and drive to wherever they want, long trips or whatever...hot rodded stuff or antiques with small blocks is where the money is being spent right now. Not saying there aren't people out there that still like a stock model A. That's just where the market is right now.

I'll second your opinion. My wife and I live in the country, have more than enough money, but spend most of our hours working. Our A coupe and T speedster seldom see the road when compared to our '66 F85 and '64 Comet. Traffic today is unforgiving and it takes too long to go anywhere. The speedster is neater than shit but I can no longer rationalize keeping it and going to sell it to fund the Comet build. We love the stock A but am working on the wife to go a different direction. Basically boils down to lack of time.
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Old 12-23-2015, 09:37 AM   #94
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The big surprise for me on the drop list is the BMW 2002

thought they were still going gangbusters..............!
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Old 12-23-2015, 12:15 PM   #95
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Default Re: Not much demand for Model As at any price or is it antique cars in general?

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Traffic today is unforgiving
This is a big issue in my opinion.

I was a member of MAFCA 3 years before I was old enough to drive. I bought my first Model A in 1974 and drove it for years. I never thought twice about driving it for hours on the freeway.

In more recent years I have grown increasingly nervous driving my latest A, much as I truly loved it. I long since stopped driving on the highway, it was simply too scary with cars zipping around me at insane speeds. It's one thing to be able to drive 65, it's something else to stop at that speed with skinny 21" tires and mechanical brakes, even though they were in excellent shape and adjusted properly.

But even the back roads around town have become problematic. For years I made daily runs to the local post office, where I had a PO Box for my home-based business, and except for bad weather I always drove the A. One day I was too lazy to pull it out of the garage and hopped into my Honda instead. Barely a mile later I was rear-ended while stopped at a crosswalk, by someone in a Dodge Ram who was distracted while texting on a cell phone (yes, the police reported spelled it out). The driver never even touched the brakes before ramming into me at 40mph. My car was thrown 25' onto a sidewalk. It was totaled and I was seriously injured, and still suffer from it almost 7 years later. The point of this long rambling story? I can't stop thinking about what would have happened to me if I'd been in the Ford that day, as I normally would have been. The car would have collapsed into kindling and I wouldn't be here to talk about it.

That incident colored my thinking for the next few years whenever I would drive the A. Then this year I had to undergo a couple of neck surgeries, in part resulting from that accident. I was left with restricted range of motion, making it hard to turn to look at traffic around me -- already difficult enough in a blindback Fordor. I finally realized that it was time for me to accept reality and let my treasure go. I was no longer able to handle it safely.

That's when I found how weak the market was. Long story short, I opted to simply donate the car to the California Auto Museum in Sacramento. Not an ideal ending but definitely a feel-good one.
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Old 12-23-2015, 12:51 PM   #96
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Default Re: Not much demand for Model As at any price or is it antique cars in general?

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This is a big issue in my opinion.

I was a member of MAFCA 3 years before I was old enough to drive. I bought my first Model A in 1974 and drove it for years. I never thought twice about driving it for hours on the freeway.

In more recent years I have grown increasingly nervous driving my latest A, much as I truly loved it. I long since stopped driving on the highway, it was simply too scary with cars zipping around me at insane speeds. It's one thing to be able to drive 65, it's something else to stop at that speed with skinny 21" tires and mechanical brakes, even though they were in excellent shape and adjusted properly.

But even the back roads around town have become problematic. For years I made daily runs to the local post office, where I had a PO Box for my home-based business, and except for bad weather I always drove the A. One day I was too lazy to pull it out of the garage and hopped into my Honda instead. Barely a mile later I was rear-ended while stopped at a crosswalk, by someone in a Dodge Ram who was distracted while texting on a cell phone (yes, the police reported spelled it out). The driver never even touched the brakes before ramming into me at 40mph. My car was thrown 25' onto a sidewalk. It was totaled and I was seriously injured, and still suffer from it almost 7 years later. The point of this long rambling story? I can't stop thinking about what would have happened to me if I'd been in the Ford that day, as I normally would have been. The car would have collapsed into kindling and I wouldn't be here to talk about it.

That incident colored my thinking for the next few years whenever I would drive the A. Then this year I had to undergo a couple of neck surgeries, in part resulting from that accident. I was left with restricted range of motion, making it hard to turn to look at traffic around me -- already difficult enough in a blindback Fordor. I finally realized that it was time for me to accept reality and let my treasure go. I was no longer able to handle it safely.

That's when I found how weak the market was. Long story short, I opted to simply donate the car to the California Auto Museum in Sacramento. Not an ideal ending but definitely a feel-good one.
That pretty much sums up the situation these days. I live in the country and can still drive my tudor with some degree of confidence, but it makes me nervous to drive on the state roads, and I would not go on the highways like I used to when people drove slower and watched where they were going. I haave a few MGs and they will keep up with traffic,and will stop well, but they are small, and the giant SUVs worry me. I find that I drive these collectable cars less and less as time goes on. I was looking at photos of model A wrecks on my computer the other day, and they really fold up and squash the people inside in a serious crash. I would never have a rumble seat car again, and the rear seat in a sedan is also a dangerous place. I still like to drive around town, and my son borrows Charis's roadster pickup for the summer, and he also lives in the country where he can enjoy the back roads.
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Old 12-23-2015, 01:24 PM   #97
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Yep, CT is brutal. We limit our "A" driving to early Sunday mornings and carefully selected back roads in the area. I would imagine the "T" Speedster, when finished, will see even more limits - neighborhood and local parade usage unless we trailer to somewhere to participate in a group event. I bought that car to have something to build, and driving it is not that important to me. It might even end up in the basement with my gas and oil stuff. I am a big MG fan also but when we wanted a sports/GT type car we went with the Mercedes SL due to a bit more bulk and power in part for comfort on long runs but also to have a fighting chance with today's traffic. That car sees a lot of weekend use.

So I can kind of see the logic Slackcat is using. Wife and I are still working FT and lots of hours, so time is limited. In fact, I shelved the speedster project due to having no time to restore or build as planned. Keeping it though, as something I really want to do eventually. So we bought the "A" because even if we don't use extensively, my main interest is still in prewar cars. The roadster feels more agile than the tudor we had, it is a tad quicker and easy to see around, which does make it easier in traffic.

But back to values and demand. Couple of observations on age - At least half the T people I have networked with are younger than I am, and a lot of speedster projects going on out there. This is tied I think, to the sportiness of a speedster as well as the resurgence in brass cars in general - a good way to get into that era without spending $$$ for a 40 HP big brass car. We wanted (still do) to see if we liked brass era cars.

In Model "A"s - if I think about the 5 or 6 closest to me in town, all but one belong to an owner plus or minus my age of 52, so not everyone my age is into musclecars only.

Ronn, I find it hard to believe the BMW 2002 is not appreciating. That would buck a general trend on 60s - 70s Euro cars that a lot of collectors NOT into American Muscle like. Did you ever sell your SL? Got my Hagerty renewal suggesting I add to the coverage on mine as it is a "quickly appreciating colector car" while they made no such suggestion for the Fords. I think that is correct, these cars are flat, IMO, have been since we got our first A in 2001. But flat is fine with me, I don't plan on funding my retirement with these - or the SL for that matter.

I think an improved economy might see appreciation for the Model A, especially top cars and body styles. Short of that my guess is the market looks like it does now, seems like a good car at a good price (those who follow the market know what's reasonable I think, in most cases) will sell. Long time A people likely recall when these commanded a bit more - especially when figuring in inflation, but this cycle is not unusual in the market. I saw a really respectable looking '57 T-Bird on CL yesterday for $20K - in my back yard. Dang....
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Old 12-23-2015, 02:09 PM   #98
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I would not go on the highways like I used to when people drove slower and watched where they were going.
This brings up something else I've noted over the years. Aside from today's cars having much more acceleration and speed than those of the 70s, when I was driving my A on the freeway, we are also dealing with a vastly increased number of drivers who are distracted and not watching what they're doing. A lot of people are overconfident with the safety of their high-tech new cars and take risks they might not have done 40 years ago.

The other thing about driving a distinctive antique car today is that I find myself running into two sorts of people. First are the ones who see any old car and become aggressive, making damn well sure that they won't get stuck behind some geezer in a slow jalopy. I've had some scary close calls with people passing dangerously and cutting me off to get around me. On the opposite extreme there are the people who absolutely love the car, to the point of not watching the road because they are staring so intently at my car. That's almost as scary as the first scenario. I'm glad (some) people appreciate old cars but it makes me nervous seeing the guy ahead of me intent on his rear-view mirror rather than his windshield.

That said, I am guilty of the same distraction whenever I see any cool antique car on the roads today. It's hard not to get excited by such a rare sighting.
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Old 12-23-2015, 02:23 PM   #99
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Default Re: Not much demand for Model As at any price or is it antique cars in general?

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This brings up something else I've noted over the years. Aside from today's cars having much more acceleration and speed than those of the 70s, when I was driving my A on the freeway, we are also dealing with a vastly increased number of drivers who are distracted and not watching what they're doing. A lot of people are overconfident with the safety of their high-tech new cars and take risks they might not have done 40 years ago.

The other thing about driving a distinctive antique car today is that I find myself running into two sorts of people. First are the ones who see any old car and become aggressive, making damn well sure that they won't get stuck behind some geezer in a slow jalopy. I've had some scary close calls with people passing dangerously and cutting me off to get around me. On the opposite extreme there are the people who absolutely love the car, to the point of not watching the road because they are staring so intently at my car. That's almost as scary as the first scenario. I'm glad (some) people appreciate old cars but it makes me nervous seeing the guy ahead of me intent on his rear-view mirror rather than his windshield.

That said, I am guilty of the same distraction whenever I see any cool antique car on the roads today. It's hard not to get excited by such a rare sighting.

So true to all of it, that's one reason why I installed the LED tail lights, third brake light, turn signals and I drive with my high beams on...YOU WILL SEE ME!
I used to follow that old credo "loud pipes save lives" when I rode my Harley, running straight pipes for 45 years...people did hear me coming and going.
But I'm not real keen on that idea with my Model A
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Old 12-23-2015, 02:47 PM   #100
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Default Re: Not much demand for Model As at any price or is it antique cars in general?

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Terry mentioned street rod values...... although I don't follow them a buddy that does told me once that you can really take a 'bath' on selling a street rod, that you can and will loose a ton of cash.
You see it in Hemmings and other markets all the time:

"Have over $80,000 in receipts, Just finished it. $45,000 or make offer."

I just don't understand how these street rod guys spend all that time and money to build a street rod and then sell it just a few months after completing the project. They need the money for next street rod build. The cycle continues.
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