Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Model A (1928-31)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-18-2019, 11:55 AM   #21
Terry, NJ
Senior Member
 
Terry, NJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bucks Co, Pa
Posts: 3,740
Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

I forgot to mention I had heated the cylinder walls to expand them. However, I was afraid of too much heat cracking the cast iron so perhaps they weren't heated enough to be effective.

I believe it (the bind) is at the rings. Why? Because of the short time it took to bind up. I started the engine and it took about fifteen seconds (Maybe only 10) to lock up completely. I don't see any scoring in the cylinders from a broken ring. The crankcase was full of fresh oil. I can't explain it and I'm not sure I can cure it.
Terry
Terry, NJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2019, 12:26 PM   #22
George Miller
Senior Member
 
George Miller's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 2,975
Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

It could be a bearing was to tight.
George Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 01-18-2019, 12:57 PM   #23
Fred K-OR
Senior Member
 
Fred K-OR's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Stayton, Oregon
Posts: 3,806
Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

I would think, like mentioned above, taking it back to the builder if possible would be the best option
__________________
Fred Kroon
1929 Std Coupe
1929 Huckster
Fred K-OR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2019, 01:38 PM   #24
holdover
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: SW Virginia near the Blue ridge Parkway
Posts: 674
Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

Being it was running I suppose in neutral, that should eliminate the trans and rear. But a lose bolt jamming the flywheel could lock it. I am sure you tried the screwdriver deal on the starter ring trying to turn it both directions. The run a few times then the lock up is curious, wish I was there to help you. Please post the findings and good luck with getting it running again.
holdover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2019, 02:05 PM   #25
DHZIEMAN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Sunrise Beach, Mo
Posts: 439
Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

As the stuck engine issue is described, it kept getting worse till the engine locked up. Something was not getting lubrication or something was too tight to start with. It has to be piston or crankshaft related. This is one of those things that just is very difficult to deal with without getting to the heart of why no lube was getting to where it was supposed to be. It is my hope, getting this engine broken down will get to a economical solution, and I would bring this car back to the engine guy who built up the engine and have him deal with it.
DHZIEMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2019, 02:49 PM   #26
ronn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: NNNNNNNNJJJJJJJJJJ
Posts: 6,758
Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
isnt this the 2nd engine this has happened to?


??????????????
ronn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2019, 02:55 PM   #27
40 Deluxe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: now Kuna, Idaho
Posts: 3,774
Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry, NJ View Post
I forgot to mention I had heated the cylinder walls to expand them. However, I was afraid of too much heat cracking the cast iron so perhaps they weren't heated enough to be effective.

I believe it (the bind) is at the rings. Why? Because of the short time it took to bind up. I started the engine and it took about fifteen seconds (Maybe only 10) to lock up completely. I don't see any scoring in the cylinders from a broken ring. The crankcase was full of fresh oil. I can't explain it and I'm not sure I can cure it.
Terry
Was this the first start after rebuild or first start after sitting for a long time? If so , you should have pulled the distributor and poured a quart or so of oil in the opening to lube the main bearings. If not, the mains will run dry until the oil pump primes itself, starts pumping oil and fills the tappet chamber enough for that thick, cold oil to start running (by gravity only) down the tubes that feed the mains. It's possible that the mains ran dry long enough to seize.
Or, maybe the dipper tray had a pinhole or two in it and a rod or two ran dry and seized before any oil got there.
40 Deluxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2019, 03:26 PM   #28
George Miller
Senior Member
 
George Miller's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 2,975
Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry, NJ View Post
I forgot to mention I had heated the cylinder walls to expand them. However, I was afraid of too much heat cracking the cast iron so perhaps they weren't heated enough to be effective.

I believe it (the bind) is at the rings. Why? Because of the short time it took to bind up. I started the engine and it took about fifteen seconds (Maybe only 10) to lock up completely. I don't see any scoring in the cylinders from a broken ring. The crankcase was full of fresh oil. I can't explain it and I'm not sure I can cure it.
Terry
If it was the rings you should have seen marks on the cylinder walls.. Most likely a main bearing was to tight.
George Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2019, 05:10 PM   #29
Terry, NJ
Senior Member
 
Terry, NJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bucks Co, Pa
Posts: 3,740
Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

George, I don't know if it makes a difference, but this engine has insert bearings.
Ronn, No this is the same one, just a continuing saga.
I would like to take it back , but it's been 5 or 6 years since I had him do the work and I don't know how hard ($) he would hit me. and I paid enough money to him already. It was north of 5 grand when I had it done then. Moral of the story, You don't get your money's worth when you pay a lot for supposed quality! You get screwed even harder!
Terry




Quote:
Originally Posted by George Miller View Post
If it was the rings you should have seen marks on the cylinder walls.. Most likely a main bearing was to tight.
Terry, NJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2019, 05:37 PM   #30
J Franklin
Senior Member
 
J Franklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 5,947
Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

Terry, how can you blame the rebuilder when you don't even know what the trouble is?
J Franklin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2019, 05:51 PM   #31
Pete
Senior Member
 
Pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wa.
Posts: 5,374
Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

...

Last edited by Pete; 01-19-2019 at 03:09 PM.
Pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2019, 06:39 PM   #32
1crosscut
Senior Member
 
1crosscut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Posts: 1,905
Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

Hmmm... did the builder forget to install the oil pump.
__________________
Dave / Lincoln Nebraska
1crosscut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2019, 11:32 PM   #33
Terry Burtz, Calif
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Campbell,CA, USA
Posts: 313
Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

With the conversion to inserts, separate thrust bearings are needed. This is modern engine design practice.

These thrust bearings are in the form of 2 half circles that are not rigidly attached, but need to have an anti-rotation feature.

My guess for the cause of your locked engine is that you have a thrust bearing problem where the thrust bearing has climbed out of its anti-rotation feature, and as a result, your crankshaft rear main bearing thrust is bound up.

Many machine shops that do the conversion for inserts use a round head screw that is screwed into the cylinder block and a corresponding hole in the thrust bearing half to prevent thrust bearing rotation. A much better choice would be to use a fillister head or socket head screw with a slightly larger hole in the thrust bearing half.
Terry Burtz, Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2019, 12:36 AM   #34
J Franklin
Senior Member
 
J Franklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 5,947
Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post
Who should he blame, his dentist?
He doesn't know what or why, it's too early to lay blame. Maybe the installation or startup procedures were faulty
J Franklin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2019, 07:18 AM   #35
Dave in MN
Senior Member
 
Dave in MN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Jordan, MN
Posts: 1,410
Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

Post #29: The engine has inserts. If the engine has aluminum insert bearings, lack of oil at the rear main bearing will lock the engine up as you described. I rebuild engines and after locking up a higher output engine I was building for myself, on a break-in stand a number of years back, I ran some tests on the insert bearings and the clearances needed.

From my experience with stock gravity oiling, to be trouble and leak free, the rear main clearance needs to be between .0018" - .0022". My methods of measuring, assembly and choice of lubricants likely make/made a difference during the tests.

I used the same engine that locked up for the tests using the same assembly lube, methods of measurement and thrust clearances. I only changed the insert bearing clearance to the main journals. I then ran the engine with a heavy dyno load on the fresh bearings. With too little rear main clearance the aluminum bearing material would weld itself to the journal. Upon teardown, the insert could be removed with a brass punch and the remaining aluminum stuck to the journal could be removed with an acid brushing. the journal was not destroyed.

Terry, It will be interesting to see what you find when you open it up. Please keep us posted.

Last edited by Dave in MN; 01-19-2019 at 07:39 AM.
Dave in MN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2019, 07:20 AM   #36
George Miller
Senior Member
 
George Miller's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 2,975
Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry, NJ View Post
George, I don't know if it makes a difference, but this engine has insert bearings.
Ronn, No this is the same one, just a continuing saga.
I would like to take it back , but it's been 5 or 6 years since I had him do the work and I don't know how hard ($) he would hit me. and I paid enough money to him already. It was north of 5 grand when I had it done then. Moral of the story, You don't get your money's worth when you pay a lot for supposed quality! You get screwed even harder!
Terry
The rear main insert needs to be reworked so the oil can get to the back of the bearing. or you have to leave more clearance. if not the insert will lock up and spin. Any of this is just a guess at this point. With out being there it is hard to say.
George Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2019, 06:20 PM   #37
Kohnke Rebabbitting
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: 60615,330th Ave.,Clare, Iowa, 50524
Posts: 1,457
Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry, NJ View Post
I forgot to mention I had heated the cylinder walls to expand them. However, I was afraid of too much heat cracking the cast iron so perhaps they weren't heated enough to be effective.

I believe it (the bind) is at the rings. Why? Because of the short time it took to bind up. I started the engine and it took about fifteen seconds (Maybe only 10) to lock up completely. I don't see any scoring in the cylinders from a broken ring. The crankcase was full of fresh oil. I can't explain it and I'm not sure I can cure it.
Terry
NO HEAT, Terry !

Being you had it running, the only way the pistons are stuck, is they don't have enough clearance, and if that is the case, WOW !

So at this point, The motor ran, then slowed down, and stopped, and now stuck. Sounds like smeared bearings!

Herm.
Kohnke Rebabbitting is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2019, 11:04 PM   #38
Railcarmover
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 1,262
Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

I like the 'heating of the cylinders'... what did you do?take a torch to the side of the block?amazing..
Railcarmover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2019, 07:16 AM   #39
chap52
Senior Member
 
chap52's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Marana Arizona
Posts: 1,771
Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

Had one jam up when the ring gear slipped out of place in one spot. Wedged against the housing and I could only turn engine backwards a half turn or so.
Believe that the well aged ring gear was over powered by the torque of my 6vt starter running on 12vt.
Just another "rabbit trail" to consider. Chap
chap52 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2019, 10:00 AM   #40
Bikerider58
Member
 
Bikerider58's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: SoCal
Posts: 53
Default Re: OK! Oldtimers, Gimme your best answer, Stuck Engine

5 or 6 years since rebuild; insert bearings; had been sitting before starting last summer.

Oil should flow due to summer. (It was not 40 degrees out)
How many total miles since rebuild? Most would assume you drove it around after installing the fresh engine, did you?
How long had it been sitting; since the previous summer, 6 months, or a few weeks?
Bikerider58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:33 PM.