'38 Ford gear oil flowing from trans to diff??

[Will D]

'38 Ford with 3 speed toploader. When I pulled the rear drums to inspect the brakes I discovered the left brakes coated in gear oil. Upon checking the rear diff fluid, it was over filled. When I checked the transmission it was low on gear oil. My question being, would you think the inner axle grease seals are toast and need to be replaced or did it leak as a result of diff being over filled and just push past?

Pressuming the seal in the torque tube needs to be replaced? Or is there another seal at the back of the trans that would cause the flow to the diff?

It appears to be Mac's 600 gear oil(or steam cylinder oil) that was in it, not sure tho just judging from reading I've done and the extreme thickness...

[Terry,OH]

Very unusual for the trans fluid to move, it is usually the rear diff. fluid due to a dropped front end. You may be best to keep the fluid in the trans with a sealed rear bearing on the U-joint side of the trans. There is also a seal at the front of the torque tube that must be bad. Along with the seals inside the rear diff. axle housings. Do not use 600 W gear oil. Is your vehicle stored in a location that raises the front end of the vehicle?

[JM 35 Sedan]

I've taken a good number of these early Ford banjo rears ('35-'40) apart in over 60 years of playing with these old Fords, and probably 9 out of 10 times, those axle housing lip seals were bad/worn out, or "toast" as some say. Granted, these seals can be a royal "pita" to remove and install new ones. It's also quite difficult to determine the condition of these seals while trying to see and examine them through the large diameter opening of the axle housing, so therefore, in many cases, I believe some folks just ignore replacing these seals while rebuilding, or making other internal repairs to these banjo rears.

IMHO, if/when these rears are removed and torn down for any reason, it's best to just go ahead and replace all three of these seals at the same time.

[Will D]

Terry,OH no, stored in garage with level floor.

Sealed rear bearing on u joint side of trans, is that a stock/original part? Or something special I need to track down?

Yes I drained out all the 600, will use proper gear lube. After I pull rear and replace seals...

[JM 35 Sedan]

Another thing I've noticed when working on these rears is...some folks like to pump lots of chassis grease into the zerk fittings at the small end of the axle housings.
• First, this is not the best grease for the drum/axle housing bearings. It's best to hand pack those bearings with a fiber filled grease, such as, Sta-Lube 3131.
• Second, when chassis grease is pumped into the rear wheel bearings, it's possible to get separation of the oil and other materials used in that lube during heated conditions. This oil will sometimes bleed through the hub/drum bearing seal, and coat brake shoes and other braking components with that oil that some mistake for gear lube oil coming from the rear banjo, and through the axle housing seals. I've seen this numerous times.

[Will D]

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JM 35 SEDAN if I remove the zerk fitting from the middle of the torque tub, is that centered over the middle bearing(is there one?) And is there another seal right there? When I poked a little hook tool in the zerk hole, what looked like little pieces of deteriorated rubber came out...

[Terry,OH]

Since you have a torque tube center Zerk, it is at the center support bearing. That bearing is surrounded by rubber support. Thhe ere is no seal at that location. For the bearing your going to have to search. The MRC 306SG, Federal 1306CG, and the Nachi 6306ZZENR are some of the bearings for the rear of the transmission. Talk to someone at a bearing supply house and see what they recommend. It's hard to believe your transmission is the source of this oil!

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by Will D

JM 35 SEDAN if I remove the zerk fitting from the middle of the torque tub, is that centered over the middle bearing(is there one?) And is there another seal right there? When I poked a little hook tool in the zerk hole, what looked like little pieces of deteriorated rubber came out...

*I started this reply but got sidetracked and then came back and finished the post. So I've repeated some things already posted by Terry*

Yes, that zerk is there to lube the center of drive shaft support bearing, and it keeps that bearing in place inside the torque tube. That bearing is encased in a rubber support material that also helps hold the center brg in place.
If you're pulling pieces of rubber thru the threaded hole for the zerk, it's a good possibility that center bearing needs replacing. The original replacements for the center bearing are difficult to find, but Skip Haney in Punta Gourda, FL sells a repro version.
I'm pretty sure Michael Driskell of 3rd Gen Automotive in Tennessee told me he uses sealed bearings in the rear of his early 3spd transmissions, and he most likely sells them as well.

[rotorwrench]

Folks have made tube baffles to fit inside the torque tube but they are to keep the rear axle lube from going forward when folks install dropped axles and not so much for reverse flow. Oil from the U-joint housing is generally not a major problem but like anything, problems can creep in for one reason or another. That shaft damper bearing would likely not like a lot of oil going back there. The rubber donut around the bearing would act as a dam and get soft if bathed in oil all the time.

The slinger ring or baffle on the rear of the main shaft just in front of the rear main shaft carrier bearing will usually keep most of the oil in there unless it gets overfilled. A person can put a sealed bearing in there but I've never had any problems with a seal on just the aft side of the bearing. I like gear lube to get to those bearings. Grease won't last as long as bath oiling will. Most greases have a shelf life of around 4-years. On the helicopters, we pull the seals and regrease them every 24-months but they are a lot easier to get to than the main shaft bearings are in an old Ford.

[Will D]

Terry, OH I am only assuming the oil is making its way from the tranny to the diff. I've had the car for 3 years, drove it minimally for 2 summers and its sat all last year. I am new to old fords and was timid about getting into it mechanically but have now delved right it.

On level ground - When I pulled the diff upper fill plug, half a quart of oil poured out. I can't imagine how the previous owner might have got so much more in above the fill hole, just presuming it came down from tranny. Maybe it didn't and the missing oil from tranny is just from driving and it self lubricating the underside of the car from the clam shell.

[Will D]

There was clear evidence of oil when I pulled the zerk fitting out of the middle of torque tube. The whole car is stock, no suspension modifications.

[Will D]

JM 35 SEDAN out of all the rears you have worked on have you ever pulled one while leaving the spring attached to the cross member? Tried to piece together bits of info from the forums, can you or anyone else clarify if this is the correct method?

After front tires are blocked -
1. Support frame with jack stands
2. Support and lift diff to stretch the spring back out
3. Install spring spreader(wrap with chain for added safety)
4. Continue to extended spreader until shackle link points straight down(tension should now be off shackle link)
5. Remove only one shackle link
6. Retract and remove spring spreader
7. Undo last spring shackle
8. Ready to slide/roll out from under car(granted clam shell and u joint are disconnected along with speado cable and brake links)

Does the speedo cable unthread at end of cable or do I need to remove the 2 bolts and plate it is attached to?

When the frame is on jack stands and the rear is hanging, what is the approx measurement difference from this to when the spring is spread with the spreader for shackles to be undone?

Thank you for all the help guys, it is greatly appreciated!

[JM 35 Sedan]

Will, I normally remove and install these rears by leaving the spring attached to the rear, and then dismantle the spring until just the main leaf is attached by the shackles, then remove the shackle links and final leaf of spring.

I leave the cable attached to the speedo turtle and just remove the two bolts holding the turtle to the torque tube.

[blucar]

As a general rule many people, including service tech's over fill the trans and rear end.
If the plug is pulled from either of units and oil flows out, the unit is over full.
When I worked in the auto service industry, 1940's/50's the proper way to check the oil level in a trans/diff was to remove the plug, stick your index finger into the hole to the first knuckle, the tip of the finger should barely touch the oil.

[Will D]

Managed to get the rear pulled and disassembled this weekend. Used JM 35 Sedan method to remove the spring, worked stellar.

Between the transmission, torque tube, rear diff and axle housings there was around 1.5 gallons of gear oil and grease. Majority in the rear and torque tube.

All the seals are original, well worn and due to be replaced. Inner axle/ bell end of torque tube.

My next dilemma is the modified roller bearing race in the bell end of the torque tube. Came across a thread Tubby had the same roller bearing race in his unit. Hoping to hear back from him as to his solution.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=209034)

[Will D]

Turns out I didn't finish the thread.....Tubby just left his in along with the old seal. I'm.going to need to remove and replace mine as there is a large pitted/rusted spot, or try and find another torque tube so I can use split bearing race.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Will, If it comes to needing to replace torque tube, I have a bunch of them.
Also, if you replace the bearing and race at front of torque tube, make sure the race is a quality part, made using the correct material. Some of the new replacement split races are made of incorrect (too soft) material, that is nothing like the original hardened split outer sleeve bearing that has a dimple that locks into the front mounting diameter of torque tube. Also, if you can't find this bearing and outer race as new parts, I also have a bunch of these in good used condition.

[Will D]

I managed to get the center bearing, modified roller bearing sleeve, and grease seal out of the torque tube.

Had to pull the rubber and spring out of the seal first. The largest pipe I could fit thru the bearing sleeve and grease seal was 1 3/16" OD, as it wasn't optimal width I had to move the end around the bearing a bit to work it out. I was then able to rig a 1 1/8" socket on the end of the first pipe I used to run back thru the torque tube and drive out the grease seal and bearing sleeve. The sleeve came out a lot easier than I expected.

From what I can tell, the torque tube was not machined to fit the sleeve. The sleeve is the same diameter as the grease seal and I can still see the indentation for the proper split bearing sleeve with the dimple. I think they may have just put in a smaller roller bearing to compensate for the thickness of the sleeve. I don't know the diameter of OEM roller bearing tho. Waiting for ecklers to be open to find out, I'm on PST time....

Unless anyone knows the outside diameter of OEM torque tube roller bearing?

[35fordtn]

There was a unique 68 prefix sleeve and smaller OD bearing which is the sleeve shown in your photo. I have them NOS but never encountered them in the wild. I believe you can just discard it and go back with the original split race and a new larger OD bearing as most all cars had.

[Will D]

Originally Posted by 35fordtn

There was a unique 68 prefix sleeve and smaller OD bearing which is the sleeve shown in your photo. I have them NOS but never encountered them in the wild. I believe you can just discard it and go back with the original split race and a new larger OD bearing as most all cars had.

Awesome, thank you.

JM 35 SEDAN I Sent you a PM if you can let me know what your asking for sleeve and bearing.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Originally Posted by Will D

Awesome, thank you.

JM 35 SEDAN I Sent you a PM if you can let me know what your asking for sleeve and bearing.

Will, I responded back to you via Fordbarn pm earlier today. I'll double check to make sure it actually went out.

[19Fordy]

For info. about torque tube center bearing read this:
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...center+bearing

Here's what my original 40 Ford center bearing looked like in 2017 when I replaced it. The car was "raked" and banjo oil went into torque tube and dissolved the rubber encasing the bearing. It was just a pile of "goo" with a metal bearing hiding inside. The outside grease fitting does line up with a "lube hole" in the bearing rubber casing.

OEM bearings (3rd photo) are impossible to find and if you do find one be prepared to "
step up" to some high dollars, like several hundred dollar bills.

Installing the OEM bearing requires a special KR Wilson tool. Otherwise, it's extremely difficult to do. Best to go with Skip's bearing. Cheaper and easier to install. Good luck.

[Will D]

Thanks 19Fordy. That's quite the goo pile. Mine wasn't quite that bad, the rubber in the center was ok but the outside 1/4" on both sides was dissoled/dissolving. I'm waiting to receive replacement from Skip. I almost choked on the price after converting from our VERY poor Canadian dollar, I can't imagine OEM bearing pricing...

[Will D]

Would it be wise to install a zerk in the torque tube to lubricate the front roller bearing? Currently there is not one, the closest zerk is in the clam shell. There is one on the attached photo were I'm thinking one should be on my torque tube, I'm assuming the pic is of a hollow drive shaft given the width(taken from VP website).

Pack the bearing and install as is or install zerk?

[rotorwrench]

It should get enough lubricant from the U-joint cavity overflow. Ford had it designed that way so they didn't put a zerk in most I've seen. I'm not sure how easy it would be to put one in the average Ford torque tube. The bearing and outer race take up a lot of the room in there. The grease fitting would have to be pretty shallow in the depth it protrudes if one is installed. The speedometer drive is also mounted pretty close there. It can be removed if someone wants to put some lube in there.

[Will D]

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Originally Posted by rotorwrench

It should get enough lubricant from the U-joint cavity overflow. Ford had it designed that way so they didn't put a zerk in most I've seen. I'm not sure how easy it would be to put one in the average Ford torque tube. The bearing and outer race take up a lot of the room in there. The grease fitting would have to be pretty shallow in the depth it protrudes if one is installed. The speedometer drive is also mounted pretty close there. It can be removed if someone wants to put some lube in there.

Thanks rotorwrench. I'll leave as is.

The good ol waiting game now...all parts, pieces, gaskets and seals in mail and enroute. Can't wait to get this thing back together!

[JM 35 Sedan]

Keep us posted Will...and good luck!

[Will D]

So..... I've got the differential back together. New seals, carrier bearings/races and new to me, used axles. I reused the pinion, ring gear and pinion bearings/race as they were in great shape. Was quite the task but with the help of a couple resources I found online, vern tardels book and numerous threads/forums from the fabulous folks on the ford barn and hamb it's together and waiting for paint to cure/harden before finally assembly of torque tube, spring and finally into the car. I ended up purchasing a 12ton hydraulic press(luckily on sale) which made the job so much easier and cost effective.

Upon further inspection I decided to replace the spring shackles. To say this job is a PITA is an understatement! The ones in the spring came out with the hydraulic press no problem. But the ones in the axle housing were a different story. I made a hand press with some scraps I had kickin' around which helped for the left side but not so much the right. After hammering out the bolt, the hand press pushed out the metal sleeve with ease. However, the right side not so much. It would not budge! I ended up using the hacksaw method to cut into it, once I was thru enough I wedged in a screw driver to curl the sleeve enough to put in some penetrating fluid. I was then able to press it out. The handle on the press pictured is really of no use, was on the threaded rod already, I just used a long wrench over the stub for leverage.

Can't wait for final assembly and installation! At least I still have some summer left to hit the road!

[Will D]

Pretty excited to test the results of my transverse leaf spring lubrication experiment. Due to location and current covid situation I was not able to acquire any "slip plate" and am not a big fan of the Teflon strips for my leaf spring. The only dry lubricant available is an airosolized graphite, thinking it wouldn't last long I decided to get creative and try something different.

I mixed 26grams dry flake graphite powder with 625ml tremclad oil based gloss paint. I made a mini paint mixing tool for my drill and very slowly added the graphite while mixing the paint.

All the leaves were separated and taken down to bare metal. After applying an etching primer I applied the first coat of pre mixed graphite/paint. After allowed to dry and cure a second coat was applied. This time before paint was allowed to dry I shook 6.5g of dry flake graphite evenly over each leaf. This was done to both sides of each leaf(except bottom of last leaf and top of first leaf). Once the leaves cured and hardened they were assembled and sprayed as a whole with the same paint but without the graphite.

Will keep you posted as to the final results.


After first coat of paint/ graphite mix


After second coat of paint/ graphite mix and dusted with flake graphite.

[Will D]

New spring shackles finally arrived, no thanks to Canadian customs who held them for over a week. Between multiple other projects and the honey do list, I managed to get it all assembled today. Tomorrow I can instal it into the car If all goes well new rubber going on early in the week, get insurance and on the road by next weekend.

[RKS.PA]

Will, this has been quite a project for you!!! Nice job from the looks of your pictures.
I went through a similar process with my '39 and because I didn't have a shop press, made a great connection with a machine shop and machinist! Your description of the spring perch removal brought back old "memories" !!

Best of luck!!

[David J]

What direction did you install the front driveshaft seal ? Some have installed these backwards .

[JM 35 Sedan]

Nice job Will!! Waiting to hear final results on road test!!

[Zeke3]

Great looking rear axle. I still have to tackle that job. Be sure to install an anti-squeak pad for the rear spring, between the spring and the crossmember.

[Will D]

Originally Posted by David J

What direction did you install the front driveshaft seal ? Some have installed these backwards .

1. Driveshaft seal: Sharp edge/open spring side facing U joint.
2. Inner axle seals: Sharp edge/ open spring side facing differential.
3. Drum brake seal: Sharp edge/ open spring side facing toward roller bearing.

Originally Posted by Zeke3

Great looking rear axle. I still have to tackle that job. Be sure to install an anti-squeak pad for the rear spring, between the spring and the crossmember.

Thank you Zeke3. I did install an anti-squeak pad between the spring and crossmember.

Got it all bolted back in and new brake cables installed. Tomorrow after work I can adjust the brakes and put the floor back together in the cab. A guy could really use 3 other hands to install the clam shell....

The driveshaft and u joint lined up well. I had the diff sitting on a 4 wheel dolly with a just enough clearance between the spring and cross member. One i got it aligned and started from the top side I was able to hold onto the rear bumper, with my feet on either side of the diff on the axle housings it pushed right on/together.

One more step closer

[David J]

Results of quiz = 100% .

Good job !

[Will D]

Road test went Great! no issues, funny noises or leaks. I managed to get off work early today and get insurance. Put on 80 miles and had a blast! Sure missed driving er. Just about got a deer on the way home, thank God he didn't stop, just trotted right across. Sure made my heart jump

Thank you to everyone who helped with direction, advice and parts! Sure wouldn't have got her back together without all the great help on the Ford Barn

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Will D

Thank you to everyone who helped with direction, advice and parts! Sure wouldn't have got her back together without all the great help on the Ford Barn

Is this a great place, or what? DD