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Old 11-26-2020, 09:13 AM   #1
jrvariel48
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Default Gear ratio's and final drives

Is there a calculation to find out how a rear ratio affects transmission gearing?
Let's say my 1st gear is a 4.03 and my rear ratio is a 3.25. If I were to change the rear ratio to a 3.50, how would that affect the 4.03 number? I have a T5 behind my flathead. My most notable problem is 3rd gear. The following comments for 1st, 2nd and 3rd would be at WOT. 1st gear revs up very fast(4.03), 2nd gear is perfect at 2.37, but 3rd gear (1.49) is really slow bringing up the rpm. By the time I hit 5000 rpm, I'm doing 85 mph! When I back off the throttle, 4th gear is good at 1.00. I can't really get into 5th gear (.76) without going 80 mph which I have no desire to do. So now I wondering if changing the rear ratio will do me any good. Open to suggestions.
Happy Thanksgiving!
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Old 11-26-2020, 09:35 AM   #2
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Default Re: Gear ratio's and final drives

Here's video of what the gauges are doing from 1st to 3rd gears

https://youtu.be/hLhduoRgSDM
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Old 11-26-2020, 09:48 AM   #3
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Default Re: Gear ratio's and final drives

You need Camaro or Mustang trans gears.......talk to V8COOPMAN.....he’s advised me on ways to change to better ratios for my T-5........Mark
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Old 11-26-2020, 11:43 AM   #4
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Default Re: Gear ratio's and final drives

Joe, to figure overall ratios simply multipy the transmission gear ratio X the rear gear ratio. Your 4.03 X 3.25 will be 13.09:1 overall. Changing to a 3.50 first will be 14.1:1 and be virtually useless IMO.

As mentioned above, the Mustang ratios are much better, especially combined with a rear gear that works best for your desired cruise rpm. It's really the only way to have both ends of the gear ratio spread work well.


The next best choice (IMO) would be to use 4.11 rear gears and simply skip 1st gear, essentially making your trans a 4 spd. Then the ratio spreads will be a lot better for spirited driving than they are now, and cruise in 5th will be just a bit lower rpm than 4th is now.



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Old 11-26-2020, 12:50 PM   #5
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Default Re: Gear ratio's and final drives

Hi Joe
I have two thoughts.
First considering how your engine pulls initially it looks like you have the S-10 T-5 if that's correct that first gear is extremely low being from the truck. If you go to a lower rear axle ratio your going to find first gear will be now to low the RPMs will come up extremely fast and of course this would continue to second and you would see a little improvement in third. The best way to eliminate the lag in third would be a close ratio transmission with the .76 fifth gear that would work perfectly.
Second thought the camshaft C/L may not be set correctly for what your doing. If its in the area of over 110 then in my opinion that will cause the lazy ness. Now this opinion I'm sure is going to open up a lot of other opinions and of course another thought hurt your economy.
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Old 11-26-2020, 04:21 PM   #6
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Default Re: Gear ratio's and final drives

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RR hit it right on th numbers. Engine torque trans ratios and final drive, is part of the "Plan ahead" theory. The S-10 trans isn't a good choice in the first place, and to pull an OD of any kind you have to have some torque.
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Old 11-26-2020, 06:02 PM   #7
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Default Re: Gear ratio's and final drives

.

Some of you know that I have written a bunch on this forum concerning these T5 transmissions. One thing that I have attempted to emphasize over and over, and over again is the fact that in 98% of cases, you DON'T WANT an "S-10" T5 "TRANSMISSION", even though "S-10" is the 'buzzword' that sticks in everyone's mind. Almost ALL of the S-10 transmissions have a 4.03 1st gear ratio, and the other three gear ratios are quite widely-spaced.

NOW.....what MOST folks really want is a slick-shifting, reasonably-strong, modern transmission with the benefit of having an OVERDRIVE to help keep the RPMs under control going down the Interstate....PLUS, having that shifter come up in a position farther forward, closer to where Henry's shifters came-up in '39 and earlier Fords. SHIFTER LOCATION should be the ONLY reason to think "S-10".....PERIOD! The S-10 transmissions have a tail shaft housing made with the shifter receptacle in the "farthest-forward" location. The gears in the rest of the S-10 case SUCK. 1st gear (4.03) is akin to a "granny" gear. 2nd, 3rd and 4th are wide-apart, ratio-wise. The early Camaro V8-specific T5s have a 2.95:1 first gear, with the rest being of a close-ratio scheme. In fact, the ratios in this trans are slightly better spaced (ratio wise) than the old Muncie close-ratio 4-speeds that Chevy put behind performance Corvette engines.

So, the only parts you want anything to do with are the "S-10" tail shaft HOUSING (seen below) as well as the top lid with shortened shift rod. They bolt right on to the Camaro transmission case, or, you can assemble the Camaro gear set in an S-10 transmission case! S-10 GEAR SETS SUCK! DD









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Old 11-26-2020, 11:50 PM   #8
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Default Re: Gear ratio's and final drives

Why isn’t the T-170 talked about enough. Sure, there are 3 different gear ratios. What’s better then a overdrive with near stock shifter position. I would lean more towards going this route then a T-5 for early Fords.
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Old 11-27-2020, 03:03 AM   #9
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Default Re: Gear ratio's and final drives

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Originally Posted by clo View Post
Why isnít the T-170 talked about enough. Sure, there are 3 different gear ratios. Whatís better then a overdrive with near stock shifter position. I would lean more towards going this route then a T-5 for early Fords.
Go find a friend with an early GM muscle-type car or Vette that has a close ratio four speed MUNCIE transmission in it. Take a ride and shift that thing through ALL FOUR gears somewhat authoritatively, and you'll understand just how nice it feels keeping the engine revs in the tight power band that one extra gear (4-speed vs 3-speed) affords. Fact of the matter is that MANY guys don't get these cars out on the freeway that often. I know that that fully-synchronized extra gear is more important to me than the over drive feature. And the T5 offers BOTH!

Just for yuks, the pictures below show the location of the shifter on a T5 we adapted to a flathead engine/torque tube in a '35 Ford pick-up. Link to the build thread BELOW if you're interested. If you use the S-10 tail shaft housing like most guys do, the shifter will even be about two inches farther forward than in this picture. We built this Camaro T5 (pictured) using a Jeep 4X4 tail shaft housing for adaptation to the torque tube. DD


https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=206955




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Old 11-27-2020, 04:00 AM   #10
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Default Re: Gear ratio's and final drives

I still like the 37% overdrive t170 with the close drive setup. Itís a good match behind a Flathead. The shifter position is closer to stock then a t-5. If that matters to some. You have to find the right overdrive ratio.
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Old 11-27-2020, 07:19 AM   #11
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Default Re: Gear ratio's and final drives

Thanks to everyone that responded!

Cadil1ac512-That sounds like a feasible idea and probably the cheapest! I'll definitely explore that a little more. Thanks

clo-I have to stick with what I have in the car now and make adjustment and corrects from there. That's a great option for those putting something together!
Thank you

Ronnieroadster-You're right about 1st gear, it's 4.03. Although I do have a 0.76 final ratio the car seems to lug in 5th gear so I usually stay in 4th gear. For this, what cadillac 512 is saying, could be looked into. I know it defeats the purpose of a 5 speed, but I need to do what I need to do without a huge expense right now. That may change. Here's my other gears: 2nd 2.37 3rd 1.49 4th 1.00
As far as the cam is concerned, how do I know what my setup is? I have an L100B cam. I can tell you the specs, but I don't know how the C/L was set up. Thanks

Ol' Ron-Looking back at when I put this car together, I should've paid closer attention. I went through 3 motors since I bought the car. I had no idea back then that the car would wind up with a blower motor.
Live and learn as they say Thanks for your input

V8COOPMAN- Can you give me numbers for specific trans numbers from the Camaro or Mustang (1352-XXX)?
I'm not looking to pull the trans just yet, but if I do, I'd like to know what's available. I'm know there's no one size fits all, I just want better drivability if possible. I found out my trans is a bit of a Frankenstein. The main case was changed because of a large crack to a 1352-065-913 which is a 83-87 NWC Camaro/Firebird, but it was machined to accept the WC gear set that it came with. Tail is from a 93+ WC S-10
and the top cover is a 86-93 plain style.Thank you.
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Old 11-27-2020, 10:03 AM   #12
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Default Re: Gear ratio's and final drives

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Originally Posted by jrvariel48 View Post

V8COOPMAN- Can you give me numbers for specific trans numbers from the Camaro or Mustang (1352-XXX)?
I'm not looking to pull the trans just yet, but if I do, I'd like to know what's available. I'm know there's no one size fits all, I just want better drivability if possible. I found out my trans is a bit of a Frankenstein. The main case was changed because of a large crack to a 1352-065-913 which is a 83-87 NWC Camaro/Firebird, but it was machined to accept the WC gear set that it came with. Tail is from a 93+ WC S-10
and the top cover is a 86-93 plain style.Thank you.
There are tables that list all the different gear ratios, I work with Ford T5s, but there are tables for the GM units as well.

The first chart is not readable, but you can find them online. Keep in mind that you have to match the input shafts, they are different!

The best combination, IMO, is a low rear axle ratio and close transmission gears with a higher 1st gear ratio. Gearing like is in the later Camaros (and Mustangs, but different input shafts) is close to the original Ford gearing and paired with rear axle ratios similar to the original gearing is the winning combination for fun driving. Again, IMO.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg T5identifier.jpg (17.5 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg S10 Gear Ratios.jpg (90.8 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg t5_spec_chart.jpg (79.2 KB, 11 views)

Last edited by JSeery; 11-27-2020 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 11-27-2020, 04:36 PM   #13
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Default Re: Gear ratio's and final drives

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Originally Posted by JSeery View Post
There are tables that list all the different gear ratios, I work with Ford T5s, but there are tables for the GM units as well.

The first chart is not readable, but you can find them online. Keep in mind that you have to match the input shafts, they are different!

The best combination, IMO, is a low rear axle ratio and close transmission gears with a higher 1st gear ratio. Gearing like is in the later Camaros (and Mustangs, but different input shafts) is close to the original Ford gearing and paired with rear axle ratios similar to the original gearing is the winning combination for fun driving. Again, IMO.
Thanks JSeery, you always have great info!
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Old 11-27-2020, 07:54 PM   #14
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Default Re: Gear ratio's and final drives

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Originally Posted by jrvariel48 View Post
Thanks to everyone that responded!



V8COOPMAN- Can you give me numbers for specific trans numbers from the Camaro or Mustang (1352-XXX)?
I'm not looking to pull the trans just yet, but if I do, I'd like to know what's available. I'm know there's no one size fits all, I just want better drivability if possible. I found out my trans is a bit of a Frankenstein. The main case was changed because of a large crack to a 1352-065-913 which is a 83-87 NWC Camaro/Firebird, but it was machined to accept the WC gear set that it came with. Tail is from a 93+ WC S-10
and the top cover is a 86-93 plain style.Thank you.
Joe....This is an old site that is about as complete and easy to read as I've ever found. Link below!

http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Bo...T5-ID-Tags.htm

You say that your main case takes WC gears. Remember, Ford or GM gear sets will fit in any T5 case. I think you need the 2.95 1st gear "CLOSE RATIO" gear set. Considering what you say about 5th gear having a hard time of it, you probably need to stick with a "0.73" or even an "0.80" 5th gear. Look at tag numbers 1352-195, and 1352-225 in this list. The #195 Camaro gear set will have a 27-spline output shaft. The #225 Ford gear set will have a 28-spline output shaft. And, considering which OD ratio you decide on, and the possibility that your drive shaft yoke is the other spline count, you should be able to run the Chevy gear set on the Ford Main shaft, or visa versa!

My opinion....FWIW....2.95 1st gear set, 0.80 OD, and a 3.50-ish rear gear! Does this help ya any? DD







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Old 11-27-2020, 08:03 PM   #15
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Default Re: Gear ratio's and final drives

I have the T-170 fron a mid 70's F150 6 cyl in my 47 pu truck. The engine is a 270.4ci stock flathead with EAB heads Gm dist and 2gc carb. Rear axle is a spicer 44 wposi and 3.73 gearsThe drivability of this beast is fantastic for my driving in Vermont. If i lived in the mid west, i'd go for a 3.55 rear. The stock EAB cam pulls from 1500 to 4K and sounds very good, MY engine was a salvaged 276 with Egge 3 5/6 + .020 3 ring pistons. Everything else is stock.
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Old 11-28-2020, 05:18 AM   #16
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Default Re: Gear ratio's and final drives

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrvariel48 View Post
Here's video of what the gauges are doing from 1st to 3rd gears

https://youtu.be/hLhduoRgSDM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flatford8 View Post
You need Camaro or Mustang trans gears.......talk to V8COOPMAN.....heís advised me on ways to change to better ratios for my T-5........Mark
Joe.....I just noticed your short video a little while ago. It is very telling. I believe you said (and it sounds like) you are starting off in 2nd gear. That sounds painfully obvious by the big drop in RPMs each time you shift. And, that is another trait of the "suck-ass" gear ratios of that "S-10" transmission. The ratios are just spaced too far apart to keep the revs from falling drastically each time you shift.

We know that your 4.03 1st gear is worthless. You're starting off in 2nd, which is a ratio of 2.37 to 1. With that 3.25 rear end, that's a pretty stiff overall ratio of 7.70 to 1....pretty damned steep. If you had a close ratio Camaro-type 2.95 1st gear along with your 3.25 rear, you've bumped-up to a 9.59 to 1 ratio....a very comfortable range for a performance 1st gear ratio. And with the subsequent 2nd, 3rd ratios of the close-ratio gear set (Camaro), the RPM drop between shifts is much less, keeping the revs much tighter in the power band all the way through 4th gear.

It's very likely that your 5th (OD) gear is a 0.72 ratio. I believe you've said that it felt like 5th gear was lugging the engine down. There is an available 0.80 5th gear in a Ford T5, but it MAY be difficult to find one of those "used". I'm thinking that an .80 OD would probably be just right for your set-up, even KEEPING that 3.25 rear gear. I'm sure that you would rather NOT need to be changing the rear gears. So, here's what I'm thinking you might consider.

I would start building a replacement trans exactly the way you want it. There are a lot of ways that you can do that. Keep in mind that there are MANY T5 parts sources on the ol' interweb. Lots of parts on eBay in particular. There are T5 specialists around the country, but not many of those giving bargain basement pricing. They can be a source for that one special piece that you might end-up needing, though. Don't forget the likes of Craigslist for complete transmissions.

I think I would attempt to find an '88 or later World Class Camaro V8 (gotta be from a V8 for the 2.95 gear set) transmission. That SHOULD match the bolt pattern on the front of your current case. Unfortunately, that trans is going to have a .73 OD ratio, essentially what you have now. There is a Mustang 5th gear-pair which will yield an .80 OD ratio in a close ratio gear set. The small gear is 20-tooth, and the large gear is 32-teeth. But, the small gear is of the 28 internal spline Ford-type (whereas the Camaro SMALL OD gear is 27-spline internal). You would need to go on eBay and purchase a separate Mustang-type 28-spline, WC (World Class) main shaft "used". They normally don't wear out, and it fits with and replaces the Camaro shaft just perfectly. You would also have to swap your drive shaft yoke for a 28-spline Ford yoke. But, you'll have one very fine, and I believe perfectly-tailored 5-speed that you're gonna love once you row through the gears a couple of times. Just so happens that there is an eBay vendor that currently is listing his last set of heavy-duty ".80 to 1", WC Mustang OD gears for a steal of a price. Those normally went for I believe $263 from another T5 specialty outfit. Try this link below! If the link doesn't work, it's eBay Item #173985041792.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mustang-T5-....c100005.m1851

That's about the best advice I have to offer. If I can help, hollar! DD







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Old 11-28-2020, 07:30 AM   #17
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Default Re: Gear ratio's and final drives

V8COOPMAN Thank you for the wealth of knowledge!! Let me tell you what I have.
The video shows me running from 1st to 3rd gears. Here's my gears:
1st 4.03
2nd 2.37
3rd 1.49
4th 1.00
5th 0.76
Rear ratio 3.25
My input shaft is an 1 1/8" X 26 spline. Ram 10 1/2" diaphragm style pressure plate
One thing that may or may not make a difference is that I have an aluminum flywheel.
I don't want to pull the trans right now as I just got it in the car in the spring. I'm not opposed to doing that
I just want to make sure I do my homework this time.

I'm going out for a ride today and I'll report back with MPH/RPM's in 3rd, 4th and 5th gears
How feasible is it to do what cadillac512 suggested and install a 4.11 ratio and forget about 5th gear? How will that change my ratios? It's a cheaper alternative. It defeats the purpose of a 5spd, but I'm not able to get into 5th gear at this point.
How will that change my ratios?
Thanks,
Joe
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Old 11-28-2020, 08:50 AM   #18
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Default Re: Gear ratio's and final drives

Your ratios now:

13.09-7.70-4.84-3.25-2.47


With 4.11 gears:


16.56-9.74-6.12-4.11-3.12




With Coopman's proposed trans gears and keeping your 3.25 rear gears:


9.58-6.30-4.35-3.25-2.63



Obviously 1st is worthless, but the rest are much improved. You can see the decent match between Coop's setup and using your trans (skipping 1st) with 4.11 rear gears.Yes it's a compromise but better than what you have now, and lots less money and time if that's a consideration.
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Old 11-28-2020, 09:45 AM   #19
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Default Re: Gear ratio's and final drives

Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillac512 View Post
Your ratios now:

13.09-7.70-4.84-3.25-2.47


With 4.11 gears:


16.56-9.74-6.12-4.11-3.12




With Coopman's proposed trans gears and keeping your 3.25 rear gears:


9.58-6.30-4.35-3.25-2.63



Obviously 1st is worthless, but the rest are much improved. You can see the decent match between Coop's setup and using your trans (skipping 1st) with 4.11 rear gears.Yes it's a compromise but better than what you have now, and lots less money and time if that's a consideration.
Terry
Thank you Terry! That translates very well!
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Old 11-29-2020, 06:53 AM   #20
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Default Re: Gear ratio's and final drives

Went for a ride yesterday & here's what I have for engine rpm and mph:

So the cars sweet spot is 2100-2500 rpm. 2300rpm/60mph is perfect which is where I usually drive. When I go slower with a lower rpm, the engine seems to lug. When I step on the throttle in that rpm range, the car pulls great. Even when I go light on the throttle, the engine is very responsive.

3rd gear 1.49 ratio

30mph/1800rpm
40mph/2300rpm
45mph/2700rpm
50mph/3000rpm

4th gear 1.00 ratio

50mph/1800rpm
55mph/2100rpm
60mph/2300rpm
65mph/2500rpm
70mph/2700rpm

5th gear 0.76 ratio

60mph/1800rpm
65mph/2000rpm
70mph/2200rpm
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