Water seal on a 32 roof?

[jim1932]

What is the mechanics of the seal between the soft roofing material and the metal? I have a spot with a slight leak, and want to fix it correctly before I put a new headliner in.

[DavidG]

The tricky part of making a spot repair is identifying the real source of the leak as it may be some distance from where the water damage shows up in the headlining.

In answer to you specific question, directly beneath the channel that encircles the opening in the roof of your car is a bed of hard wood that the steel outer retaining channel is nailed to. A foundation of chicken wire is attached to that same wooden framework, followed by a layer of sturdy canvas covering only the chicken wire, followed by padding (only to edges of the canvas), followed by the outer fabric. The steel outer channel is pressed down into the channel recess over the outer fabric and was originally tacked in place with the tacks passing through the outer fabric into the wood. A rubber strip is then inserted into the opening to fill the opening in the channel and cover the heads of the tacks.

Originally there was a sealer used beneath the outer fabric around perimeter both above and below the fabric. I go a step further and use a sealer to cover all of the unused openings in the steel channel and the tack heads.

In your situation where it is unlikely that you will know exactly where the leak originates, I'd re-seal the entire top on both sides of the steel channel and depending on what exists in the center of the channel, seal on both sides of the rubber inserts inside the channel and in any joints in the rubber channel. Your could use a wide range of sealers ranging from dum-dum to a fine bead of black silicone.

The photo below is of an original piece of the steel retainer channel.

[Bader]

David,does someone reproduce the rubber spline that goes in the channel and covers the tack heads?

[DavidG]

Yes, at least a year or so ago. The source that I used was Dennis Carpenter and I believe that it is also carried by LeBaron Bonney.

Unless it has been revised, it does the job, but not as well as the original. The original was artificial leather covered rubber whereas the reproduction is just rubber and is narrower, flimsier, and not quite the same cross section as the original. It's another one of those "if you're going to make it, why not make it right" questions.

[johnboy34]

That repo rubber is made for the repo aluminum channel, it does work in the original channel like David has said. Install it with urethane windshield sealer, don't over do it, and it will seal great.

[jim1932]

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Originally Posted by DavidG

The tricky part of making a spot repair is identifying the real source of the leak as it may be some distance from where the water damage shows up in the headlining.

In answer to you specific question, directly beneath the channel that encircles the opening in the roof of your car is a bed of hard wood that the steel outer retaining channel is nailed to. A foundation of chicken wire is attached to that same wooden framework, followed by a layer of sturdy canvas covering only the chicken wire, followed by padding (only to edges of the canvas), followed by the outer fabric. The steel outer channel is pressed down into the channel recess over the outer fabric and was originally tacked in place with the tacks passing through the outer fabric into the wood. A rubber strip is then inserted into the opening to fill the opening in the channel and cover the heads of the tacks.

Originally there was a sealer used beneath the outer fabric around perimeter both above and below the fabric. I go a step further and use a sealer to cover all of the unused openings in the steel channel and the tack heads.

In your situation where it is unlikely that you will know exactly where the leak originates, I'd re-seal the entire top on both sides of the steel channel and depending on what exists in the center of the channel, seal on both sides of the rubber inserts inside the channel and in any joints in the rubber channel. Your could use a wide range of sealers ranging from dum-dum to a fine bead of black silicone.

The photo below is of an original piece of the steel retainer channel.

So if the channel is raised at the joint would that indicate either the nail has rusted out or pulled out? Can I pull the rubber out and put it back? Or is it a total redo if you mess with it? The channel is original, the rubber top is probably repop from the 60's. Still looks great though.

[DavidG]

Jim,

If the top was replaced as you indicate, perhaps the steel channel was bent when it was removed and not straightened when reinstalled.

Maybe you'd get lucky and be able to reuse the rubber insert, but the odds are likely against you if it is 50+ plus years old and has had extensive exposure to the sun.

[jim1932]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Jim,

If the top was replaced as you indicate, perhaps the steel channel was bent when it was removed and not straightened when reinstalled.

Maybe you'd get lucky and be able to reuse the rubber insert, but the odds are likely against you if it is 50+ plus years old and has had extensive exposure to the sun.

50 Plus years sitting in a garage. Not driven at all from 73 to when I got it and I have only put about 20 miles on it. So, age but no sun. to be clear on the terminology, there is the rubber panel, then there is the part that goes into the channel to hold it in. Is that correct? Do both of those parts come in the kit from Lebaron Bonney? The big cover is in good shape and fits nicely, would hate to mess that up, but got to keep the water out.

[Frank Miller]

What is the material like? Seeing you're replacing the headliner nothing but a top notch job on the outer roof should be considered. With the using of sealers and what not i would think now is the time to do it.

[DavidG]

Jim,

The steel channel in the photo that I posted above is what retains the fabric in the stamped-in recessed area in the perimeter of the roof opening. The rubber insert that fills the opening in the steel channel is a finishing touch. As I indicated above, the reproduction rubber insert does not fit tight enough to prevent water from bypassing it. Hence the need for sealer both above and below the steel channel to achieve waterproofing.

For what it is worth, I tend to agree that if you're replacing the headlining, then you should give serious consideration to replacing the top insert fabric. There's no guarantee that you'll find the leak without starting from scratch and you'll want to kick yourself if after all of your efforts your new headlining ends up stained from a water leak.

[jim1932]

Dave,

The top insert "Fabric" is a rubber sheet isn't it?

[petehoovie]

Spray it with that black 'FLEX SEAL' as seen on TV.....Seriously....

[DavidG]

If it's the original, which it looks to be, it's artificial leather (a predecessor to vinyl). If it was replaced, it is likely vinyl. It is not uncommon for a top sealer to have been applied somewhere along the way which might give it the appearance of rubber, but again it does not appear to be the case. So, based on your photo it is not a rubber sheet.

[jim1932]

OK, how do I tell if it's original? If it is I will try to keep it, if not I will just get a new Lebaron one.

[DavidG]

Post a closeup well-focused photo or two at the edge sowing both the top insert material and the retaining channel and we'll give you are two cents worth,

[jim1932]

These are all I have at home.

[DavidG]

Jim,

The underside photo is interesting in that everything looks original, but there's a layer of padding above the layer of canvas that shows in the photo so that photo reveals nothing about the outer layer. The outside photo is not close enough and focused enough to draw any conclusions about the originality of the material. The retaining channel and the insert in that channel look to be strong candidates to be the original, so the odds are good about the insert material, but it would still be a guess without a better photo.

[jim1932]

Finally got a few photos. It leaks where the strips join.

[jim1932]

Original?

[PeteVS]

This is what a previous owner used to eliminate the roof leaks on my brother's '32 Tudor. If you do use roofing cement, be sure to mask off the glass or else it's a bear to scrape it off so you can see out.

[DavidG]

Your top material appears to be a replacement of the original.

[jim1932]

so where is it lifted (at the seam in the tack strip)....doet that look like it just needs a couple new nails?

[DavidG]

Nails per se likely won't solve the problem, which is likely caused by a lack of an effective sealer. You could apply some sealer first and then try tacking down the affected area and it might work. Likely, however, is that the existing tacks lost their adhesion due to the deterioration of either the tack or the underlying wood. Small screws (#2 or 3) would likely be a better bet than tacks.

[32 ford barn]

From the looks of your tack strip picture it looks like a complete strip down and rebuild to get it right.

[jim1932]

Now that I know it is not the original roof, I will tear it all out (carefully)and replace it with a Lebaron Bonney kit.