Brake Overhaul

[DJ S]

At a recent club meeting, we got to talking about doing a brake job over the winter. I've heard that brake jobs on Model As can get pricey real quick, so I was wondering how much it would cost to do a complete brake job? In addition to cost, what are the things that should be looked out for?

[Great Lakes Greg]

I just sent my hubs on a round trip to Brattons for new cast drums. Shipping and parts alone was $1000. Yikes!

[burner31]

There IS...ANOTHER option.

[Mel Gross]

I really don't understand why more of you don't try us out for all of your brake needs.

We have cast iron drums, relined shoes. e bands.

We rebuild backing plates and can swedge our drums on your hubs.

Ask on this website and see how others feel about our product, quality of work performed, turn around time, and customer service.

Call or email if interested

Randy Gross
[email protected]
714-292-8660

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by Mel Gross

I really don't understand why more of you don't try us out for all of your brake needs.

We have cast iron drums, relined shoes. e bands.

We rebuild backing plates and can swedge our drums on your hubs.

Ask on this website and see how others feel about our product, quality of work performed, turn around time, and customer service.

Call or email if interested

Randy Gross
[email protected]
714-292-8660

Everything I have heard about Randy has been good. As with any vendor search for his name in the archives. Your are correct that it can get expensive but you first need to take everything apart and see what needs to be replaced. The first thing you need is to be sure you have a good puller for the rear hubs. I like the KR Wilson reproduction from Winfield Tool Works but there are probably less expensive ones out there that will work just as well. Check the archives. The wrong puller can ruin the axle/hubs any may not even work in the long. If they come off easy they probably weren't tight enough, look carefully for cracks in the axles. The right puller is expensive so try to borrow one or VanPelt rents them, http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/flathead_home.htm Be careful the puller may not work with all hubs, post a picture of your hubs (both hubs as they may be different.

Charlie Stephens

[CarlG]

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The rear hub puller I got from Mitchell works great and will accommodate both styles of hubs.

[TomballMottershaw]

In a budget to rebuild the braking system give yourself $700 wheel.
When all is done this is not far off, if you already have cast Iron drums and new bearing/races.... you are 60% done.
My stock brake rebuild setup cost $3k, and my backing plates were in OK shape.
With this stock setup, I can stop at the limit of the narrow tires, very little fade over 10 full stops from 45mph. The cast Iron drums... really help.

Stopping the car is a critical function, that keeps you driving the car.

And don't neglect the parking brake either.

[burner31]

Originally Posted by Mel Gross

I really don't understand why more of you don't try us out for all of your brake needs.

We have cast iron drums, relined shoes. e bands.

We rebuild backing plates and can swedge our drums on your hubs.

Ask on this website and see how others feel about our product, quality of work performed, turn around time, and customer service.

Call or email if interested

Randy Gross
[email protected]
714-292-8660

How about a website so we can check things out?

[Kevin in NJ]

Here in lies the problem with the Model A brakes.

They are not easy, cheap for quick to properly rebuild the system to make them work like factory.

It really requires some specialized tooling.
From proper riveting tools to a machine to get the shoes the right size and centered. Plus they really require a bunch of quality new parts to ensure even action.

Having my own special tooling I can do all the areas myself, but others have options.

If I have this figured out properly (Mel or someone else please correct me if I am wrong).......

Luckily the A is really a precision built machine in many areas.

So a drum can be replaced and cut to size and then a backing plate properly loaded with all new parts.
The backing plate can be set up on an axle or spindle and the shoes can be cut and centered on the backing plate for the drum.

So you get 4 drums and 4 backing plates. You just have to bolt them in place matched together. Then do the correct brake adjusting procedure to get the rods set up properly.

This takes a lot of the problem areas out of your hands and gives you a best possible set up.

There are ways to do brakes good using tools at home, but they may not turn out as well as you could get. So the expense has a big payoff in the end as you end up with great brakes.

Of course, you could try to accumulate the proper tools. A kick riveter is a nice tool and you can spend up to $200 to get one. Individual shoe grinders are running $200+ (shipping is killer). The best tool, the Barrett Brake Doktor, typically run in the $400 range for a complete unit. Try and find the proper tool for swaging the drum to the hub. Plus the 40 ton press it takes. Then there may be other tools needed to change the plates in the backing plates and so on. You also have to know how to use the tools properly, that is a lot of time there.
So the $$$$ it cost to have various places supply you with finished backing plates and drums is not so bad.

Generally speaking, a properly rebuilt set of brakes will likely last the rest of your life and maybe a couple of grand generations. So the return on investment (stopping when you need it and lasting a long time) is pretty good.

[160B]

Originally Posted by DJ S

At a recent club meeting, we got to talking about doing a brake job over the winter. I've heard that brake jobs on Model As can get pricey real quick, so I was wondering how much it would cost to do a complete brake job? In addition to cost, what are the things that should be looked out for?

As far as to watch out for use the Model A Ford Mechanics Handbook Volume I, $36.00.
https://mafca.com/cart/index.php?productID=166

I finished installing cast iron drums on my 1931 68B this spring. I spent a total of $690 +, and did a lot of the work myself. With the help of a club member who has a press, I removed the steel drums and installed the CI drums on my hubs. I also had the roller tracks welded up and ground to the correct dimension. I have my own Ammco 1750 brake centering tool and I centered the brake shoes. Here is a list of my expenditures. I have brakes !!!!

Cast iron Drums from Mel Gross $325
Relined brake shoes locally $180
Cost to have the drums trued to the hub $60
Wheel bearings and seals $125

[mshmodela]

Originally Posted by CarlG

The rear hub puller I got from Mitchell works great and will accommodate both styles of hubs.

Carl,

Is this like your's ?

http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/universal-hub-puller

[Tom Endy]

Originally Posted by Mel Gross

I really don't understand why more of you don't try us out for all of your brake needs.

We have cast iron drums, relined shoes. e bands.

We rebuild backing plates and can swedge our drums on your hubs.

Ask on this website and see how others feel about our product, quality of work performed, turn around time, and customer service.

Call or email if interested

Randy Gross
[email protected]
714-292-8660

Certainly my recommendation. Many Model A folks here in Southern California have done business with Randy and are pleased with his quality service and reasonable cost.

Tom Endy

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by mshmodela

Carl,

Is this like your's ?

http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/universal-hub-puller

Yes it is. If you look at the instruction page, it even says Mitchell on it.

[bunnyc]

A couple months ago I rebuilt my brakes. EVERYTHING new/rebuilt from the brake pedal to the wheels. New cast drums on original hubs.
Didn't keep track of exact costs; didn't really want to know.
I'd estimate somewhere around $2000- 2500 for the job.
Randy Gross is your best choice for the cast drums. Can't say enough good about him.
Whatever it cost it was worth it. I have great brakes now.
The biggest difference is less brake fade after repeated braking.

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by Mel Gross

I really don't understand why more of you don't try us out for all of your brake needs.

We have cast iron drums, relined shoes. e bands.

We rebuild backing plates and can swedge our drums on your hubs.

Ask on this website and see how others feel about our product, quality of work performed, turn around time, and customer service.

Call or email if interested

Randy Gross
[email protected]
714-292-8660

Probably next winter's project, engine is this winter

[BUDB]

I just received a pair of drums from Randy. I sent my hubs to him. Turnaround was very quick and the work was first class. Highly recommend!

[billy myers]

dj I can help u call me 8608835290

[larrys40]

comprehensive brake job is a 30 -40 hour job when you know what you are doing .
It would include tear down, cleaning, blasting all parts, evaluating use and condition of original parts and replacements required. Relining all shoes, drums replaced/reworked as desired, all bushings , shafts, levers, brake rods , restored/replaced as per specs as new
Labor cost is whatever your respective restorer / service shop may charge per hour plus parts.
Brakes are one of my fortes and I know them well.
Its wise to do the job correctly the first time. If you do the labor yourself it will probably be 1k in parts including new drums. If you farm out the labor I believe my hour range is very fair. It's not like going to Midas for a modern brake job
Larry Shepard

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by larrys40

comprehensive brake job is a 30 -40 hour job when you know what you are doing .
It would include tear down, cleaning, blasting all parts, evaluating use and condition of original parts and replacements required. Relining all shoes, drums replaced/reworked as desired, all bushings , shafts, levers, brake rods , restored/replaced as per specs as new
Labor cost is whatever your respective restorer / service shop may charge per hour plus parts.
Brakes are one of my fortes and I know them well.
Its wise to do the job correctly the first time. If you do the labor yourself it will probably be 1k in parts including new drums. If you farm out the labor I believe my hour range is very fair. It's not like going to Midas for a modern brake job
Larry Shepard

MIDAS now thats funny

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by larrys40

... It's not like going to Midas for a modern brake job

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

MIDAS now thats funny

It doesn't take much to get to $1K on a modern car even at Midas, Mineke, or even Sears anymore. Add that to the lack of quality of work coming from either of these places, I prefer to source my modern car work elsewhere.

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by CarlG

It doesn't take much to get to $1K on a modern car even at Midas, Mineke, or even Sears anymore. Add that to the lack of quality of work coming from either of these places, I prefer to source my modern car work elsewhere.

my response was geared more to the quality of work.... but then again since they work partly commission and i have had many individuals come here after they tried to hammer them on what was needed the whole situation is a joke

[larrys40]

Ok guys , taking ribbing in my comparison of new car brake work vs model a comprehensive rebuilding / restoration . Ill choose my comparison more wisely next time !!
Larry

[wrmayne]

Randy Gross is great. Please go to him for cast iron drums. You will not regret it. You will not be disappointed with quality or price.

[wgmatt]

Originally Posted by Mel Gross

I really don't understand why more of you don't try us out for all of your brake needs.

We have cast iron drums, relined shoes. e bands.

We rebuild backing plates and can swedge our drums on your hubs.

Ask on this website and see how others feel about our product, quality of work performed, turn around time, and customer service.

Call or email if interested

Randy Gross
[email protected]
714-292-8660

I bought drums from Randy and he rebuilt my backing plates also. Great guy to work with and mine Town Sedan actually STOPS. I feel much safer. He doesn't need a website - just give him a call.

[Floats]

Hi DJ,
I cant answer your question regarding costs. Here in South Africa every thing imported is X 3. I am not talking exchange rates. We pay the US price, the US shipping price as well as the South African import duties. Thumb suck, three times the US costs, before we talking 14 of our Rands to a US$.

However, in an attempt to answer your question, RANDY GROSS at [email protected] is your man.

[Chris H]

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I just rebuilt my brakes this summer and used Mel Gross CI drums, linings, and had him rebuild the backer plates. Randy Gross does excellent work and has it done when he says it will be done. I can not praise him enough! Great work! Thanks Randy.

[1930pu]

Call Randy Gross, I talked to him a couple of times before sending my hubs to him, super guy to talk to and fast turnaround, great job on the drums and I got the correct shoes, the brakes work better than ever, I would use him again... Jim

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Mel Gross

I really don't understand why more of you don't try us out for all of your brake needs.
Randy Gross

I see one of the problems is that folks don't know what ya got... No websire, no catalog, ads?

With the other vendors it's all laid out in front of them, different parts, prices, services available, pictures.

When I bought my drums from Bratton's it didn't even occur to me to call you even tho I've seen you mentioned numerous times on "The Barn" and your closer to me.

[Tom Endy]

Originally Posted by Y-Blockhead

I see one of the problems is that folks don't know what ya got... No websire, no catalog, ads?

With the other vendors it's all laid out in front of them, different parts, prices, services available, pictures.

When I bought my drums from Bratton's it didn't even occur to me to call you even tho I've seen you mentioned numerous times on "The Barn" and your closer to me.

In the Model A hobby there is a "guy" for every aspect of the Model A. Many that have cottage industries don't advertise. You hear about them by word of mouth. When someone like Randy does good work at reasonable prices, the word spreads fast.

Tom Endy

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by Tom Endy

In the Model A hobby there is a "guy" for every aspect of the Model A. Many that have cottage industries don't advertise. You hear about them by word of mouth. When someone like Randy does good work at reasonable prices, the word spreads fast.

Tom Endy

Tom, I'm sure everything you say is true but the thing is I had a Bratton's Catalog in front of me when I ordered my hubs and drums and saw I could order them assembled I could see other parts I would need to order at the same time. I could also see the prices right there in the catalog so I could plan my budget.

I wasn't trying to "Bad Mouth" Randy in any way, just trying to answer his question (In my case anyway.) " why?? "

Originally Posted by Mel Gross

I really don't understand why more of you don't try us out for all of your brake needs.

[larrys40]

The quality of the brake job is not only in the parts, how they are mated,restored,replaced, but also in the re-assembly of the various parts and components and adjusted properly to make everything work as they were when new.
I just completed a brake re-rebuild and repair on a car that had new brattons drums, roller tracks replaced (unkown roller tracks and by whom/ incorrect dimensions) new bratton shoes with linings, drums scored, rear brake actuating levers half frozen, etc.. and in short the car was purchased and the brakes albeit with many new parts were non-existent in function.
Linings had to be redone, roller tracks machined to proper dimension, drums turned, shoes arced, bushings/shafts replaced as necessary, and more.. and then properly set up and adjusted. They are now awesome and will skid to a stop.

It's about knowing and understanding what you are doing. I don't think that it's as simple as sending off your assemblies and getting them back and slapping them on. I would still always center to "your axle housings/car) and make sure all is true and arced and of course assembled to ensure all is correct. That includes front brake operating shafts, spindle bolt brake pins/wedges, if a pill is needed, brake rod clevis drilled for oversize or repaired back to standard... brake cross shaft and rod restoration and more. I can't imagine a " brake job in a box" with unfamiliar installation as good as one that is done by a skilled restorer/"A" mechanic.

I think it's great the augmentative services that are available out there from the various suppliers but I think it's better to get the right help in doing the whole job from dis assembly to restoration to re-assembly and setup/adjustment to ensure optimum performance.
After completing the recent re-restoration of brakes on a recent local acquisition of one of our members my bet would be with the skilled person from start to finish ...
I realize depending on location and expertise in your area that may not be possible...and of course labor cost... but then good brakes are important to stay alive.
Too many people say how poor Model A Brakes are when they can actually be skidding to a stop in time if needed.
Just my 2-cents worth.

Larry Shepard

[stewwolfe]

I did the brakes on my 68C last summer, with Bratton's CI drums at a cost of a little more than 2K. This year I did my Roadster, using Randy Gross' CI drums at a cost of a little more than 1K. Randy was great to work with and has top quality drums. We had a tool made, borrowed a 50 ton press, and swedged the hubs on to our drums ourselves. It's not that hard with the proper tooling, but you have to have the tooling. The biggest problem with using Randy, if you are on the east coast, is shipping cost, but I still suggest using him for your brake parts. The most important thing is that you replace or rework all the worn parts.


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[dennis lumbert]

I met Randy Gross last summer when I still lived in Ca. He turned some rear cast iron drums for me which I previously had purchased from another vendor.He is committed to doing the best job he possibly can and is very well equipped to supply parts/ rebuild backing plates/install new drums.I now live in Ar. But will be calling him for any brake needs in the future on my A. I thank you also Randy. Dennis Lumbert

[c125bob]

I used Randy as well, good to work with and quality parts. Worth the shipping !!