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Old 10-24-2020, 11:15 AM   #1
mike42
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Default 1940 Brake Bleeding

Got everything reassembled and I have filled the new master about 20 times and still no hard pedal. Using speed bleeders. Does it normally take this long to get a firm pedal ? Am I doing something wrong ?

I only replaced the front cylinders and shoes.

Thx....Mike
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Old 10-24-2020, 11:41 AM   #2
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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Got everything reassembled and I have filled the new master about 20 times and still no hard pedal. Using speed bleeders. Does it normally take this long to get a firm pedal ? Am I doing something wrong ?

I only replaced the front cylinders and shoes.

Thx....Mike
Not certain if you are doing anything wrong or not.

Did you have a good pedal prior to replacing the shoes and cylinders? If so, we can pretty much eliminate a defective master.

You must start at the right - rear cylinder. Bleed that and move to the left - rear. Then the right - front and finally the left - front.

Be 100% certain the master NEVER runs low. If it does, you will instantly introduce air in to the system.

Speed bleeders? If the method I'd just described does not work, I'd suggest you remove the speed bleeders and get a helper to manipulate the brake pedal.

Pump the pedal at a "normal" pace about five or six times and HOLD it down until you have opened and subsequently closed the bleeder. Check fluid in master and top off as necessary.
Repeat.
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Old 10-24-2020, 11:45 AM   #3
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Did you bleed all 4 wheel cylinders? Look up previous threads on this subject.
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Old 10-24-2020, 11:51 AM   #4
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

It looks like Kube replied ahead of me. Follow his advice.
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Old 10-24-2020, 12:31 PM   #5
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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Got everything reassembled and I have filled the new master about 20 times and still no hard pedal. Using speed bleeders. Does it normally take this long to get a firm pedal ? Am I doing something wrong ?

I only replaced the front cylinders and shoes.

Thx....Mike
Speed bleeders generally only require 2-3 slow pumps to purge the line and then close the bleeder.

Is the pedal to master cylinder rod correctly adjusted?
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Old 10-24-2020, 12:53 PM   #6
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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I did not start in the rear which I will do now. The pedal goes right to the floor and i did have hard brakes before but some of the cylinders were frozen. New cylinders in front only. I have no leaks anywhere. Are you saying to shut off the bleeders each time i fill the master ? I must have filled the master 20 times and nothing yet. I screw the cap on each time, but pedal goes to the floor. I’ll check to see if it needs adjustment next. I’m keeping the master filled the best i can. I do have one drum off right now. Should i reinstall it during this process ?

Thx mike
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Old 10-24-2020, 01:21 PM   #7
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Mike: Are you using the correct procedure for bleeding all for wheels? Yes, you do shut off each speed bleeder each time you fill the master cylinder and Yes, you must bleed the brakes with the drums on the car and brake shoes adjusted so the shoes are not retracted far away from the drums .

Too far away and the shoes will not give any resistance to pedal pressure. That's the way I do it. In fact, I adjust the brakes BEFORE I bleed them to avoid this problem.
As you may know, you do them in this order:
LR, RR,LF, RF. Here is a helpful video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VMV51FUA7A

Here's what the Speed Bleeder folks say:
http://www.russellperformance.com/mc/speed-bleeders/
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Old 10-24-2020, 01:23 PM   #8
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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I did not start in the rear which I will do now. The pedal goes right to the floor and i did have hard brakes before but some of the cylinders were frozen. New cylinders in front only. I have no leaks anywhere. Are you saying to shut off the bleeders each time i fill the master ? I must have filled the master 20 times and nothing yet. I screw the cap on each time, but pedal goes to the floor. I’ll check to see if it needs adjustment next. I’m keeping the master filled the best i can. I do have one drum off right now. Should i reinstall it during this process ?

Thx mike
You have to shut OFF the bleeder after each time you bleed the line.
That is, slow pump to get fluid in the catch can.
Then close the bleeder and then proceed to next line and do the same.
Fill the master as required.
( I supect that you never closed the bleeders)
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Old 10-24-2020, 01:47 PM   #9
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

You can't bleed brakes with the drum off, so that would be a place to start. There is nothing for the brake shoes to push against.
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Old 10-24-2020, 02:00 PM   #10
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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You can't bleed brakes with the drum off, so that would be a place to start. There is nothing for the brake shoes to push against.
Really? All you are doing is bleeding air from the line, does not have to push on anything.
The return springs are sufficient.

Wonder how one manages to bench bleed master cylinders without brake shoes.
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Old 10-24-2020, 02:11 PM   #11
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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Really? All you are doing is bleeding air from the line, does not have to push on anything.
The return springs are sufficient.

Wonder how one manages to bench bleed master cylinders without brake shoes.

I believe my quote is perhaps the best way I am able to respond...
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Old 10-24-2020, 02:43 PM   #12
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Okay back to square one. No I didn’t put on a drum. No I didn’t start at the rear. No I didn’t shut off speed bleeder after each time I filled the master. Will do going forward.

I’m going to have a Jack Daniels and start all over in morning.

Thx........Mike
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Old 10-24-2020, 02:46 PM   #13
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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okay back to square one. No i didnít put on a drum. No i didnít start at the rear. No i didnít shut off speed bleeder after each time i filled the master. Will do going forward.

Iím going to have a jack daniels and start all over in morning.

Thx........mike
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Old 10-24-2020, 03:55 PM   #14
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Mike, wish you were my neighbor.
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Old 10-24-2020, 04:16 PM   #15
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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Mike, wish you were my neighbor.
You are a twisted man!

Seriously though...you and I would have fun
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Old 10-24-2020, 05:42 PM   #16
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Jack and I have been good buddies for about 40 years ! Some guys see a shrink......but I have him to talk too. Works for me !

I’ll be in the barn in the morning getting back into it.

Thx.....Mike
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Old 10-24-2020, 05:58 PM   #17
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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Originally Posted by 34PKUP View Post
Really? All you are doing is bleeding air from the line, does not have to push on anything.
The return springs are sufficient.

Wonder how one manages to bench bleed master cylinders without brake shoes.
Ok, I will modify my post. I have never attempted to bleed brakes without the drums on and the way I bleed them it would not work. I put a lot of pressure on the brake pedal, and thus the hydraulics, and it would over power the return springs.
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Old 10-25-2020, 02:19 AM   #18
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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Originally Posted by mike42 View Post
Iím going to have a Jack Daniels.

Thx........Mike
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Originally Posted by 19Fordy View Post
Mike, wish you were my neighbor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kube View Post
Seriously though...you and I would have fun
I BELIEVE Jim was referring to "mike42", as HE had the "Jack", Jack! You just do that ol' Korbel Kool-Aid!

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Old 10-25-2020, 02:55 AM   #19
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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Really? All you are doing is bleeding air from the line, does not have to push on anything.
The return springs are sufficient.

Wonder how one manages to bench bleed master cylinders without brake shoes.
Really? The return springs are sufficient FOR WHAT? They're NOT sufficient to retain a wheel cylinder's pistons and cups if someone unfamiliar with the general procedure (as "mike42" readily admits to) attempts to 'stroke' the pedal TOO far when a drum is NOT installed so as to limit piston travel created via pedal over-stroke.

Another thing that anyone bleeding brakes should be aware of is NOT to stroke the pedal such that the piston bottoms-out in the MC.

Bench bleeding has NOTHING to do with brake shoes. The process is intended ONLY to completely void the circuitry within the MC of any air.



DD
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Old 10-25-2020, 04:14 AM   #20
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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Really? The return springs are sufficient FOR WHAT? They're NOT sufficient to retain a wheel cylinder's pistons and cups if someone unfamiliar with the general procedure (as "mike42" readily admits to) attempts to 'stroke' the pedal TOO far when a drum is NOT installed so as to limit piston travel created via pedal over-stroke.

Another thing that anyone bleeding brakes should be aware of is NOT to stroke the pedal such that the piston bottoms-out in the MC.

Bench bleeding has NOTHING to do with brake shoes. The process is intended ONLY to completely void the circuitry within the MC of any air.



DD
How much pressure is being is being exerted on the wheel cylinder when the bleeder is open and the brake pedal goes to the floor?
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Old 10-25-2020, 05:10 AM   #21
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Atmospheric pressure only, that's why whoever is helping doesn't let the pedal up until you close the bleeder and tell them to let up. If not you suck air back into the slave cylinder and/or line when they let up on the pedal.
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Old 10-25-2020, 06:05 AM   #22
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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Atmospheric pressure only, that's why whoever is helping doesn't let the pedal up until you close the bleeder and tell them to let up. If not you suck air back into the slave cylinder and/or line when they let up on the pedal.
The original poster has installed 'Speed bleeders' so sucking air back into the system is not a factor.
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Old 10-25-2020, 06:23 AM   #23
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Coopman...that Korbel note was funny as I had a guy in Germany who drank that and I always stayed with the Jack.

So....my brake pedal has gone to the floor several times in this long process. Have I created some damage in doing so ?

Drum is going on this morning and I'm going to start the process over again.

Once again.....you fill the master.....pump the pedal.....and turn off the speed bleeder as you refill the master and then turn on the bleeder while I pump the pedal again ? Am I getting that correct ? It's 33ļ here now and I hope I don't have to start drinking again this morning !!

Thx much..... Mike
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Old 10-25-2020, 07:38 AM   #24
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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Coopman...that Korbel note was funny as I had a guy in Germany who drank that and I always stayed with the Jack.

So....my brake pedal has gone to the floor several times in this long process. Have I created some damage in doing so ?

Drum is going on this morning and I'm going to start the process over again.

Once again.....you fill the master.....pump the pedal.....and turn off the speed bleeder as you refill the master and then turn on the bleeder while I pump the pedal again ? Am I getting that correct ? It's 33ļ here now and I hope I don't have to start drinking again this morning !!

Thx much..... Mike
With the Speed bleeder open, pump the pedal 2-3 times, close the bleeder. (do this just once)
You should not have to add brake fluid at this point but check it and add if necessary.

NOW go to opposite side and do the same.
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Old 10-25-2020, 08:49 AM   #25
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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Ok, I will modify my post. I have never attempted to bleed brakes without the drums on and the way I bleed them it would not work. I put a lot of pressure on the brake pedal, and thus the hydraulics, and it would over power the return springs.
Bleeding brakes without the drums on is pretty risky, Easy to blow your wheel cylinders apart.
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Old 10-25-2020, 09:01 AM   #26
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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34PKUP: How much pressure is being is being exerted on the wheel cylinder when the bleeder is open and the brake pedal goes to the floor?


You seem to use a different method of bleeding brakes than I do. I have never used speed bleeders or any other aids like that. Been doing brakes from the time I was around 14 and have never had the slightest problem bleeding them. The way I have always done them you apply a lot of foot pressure on the brake pedal, crack the bleed screw, then retighten it. I'm sure there are other ways to go about it, but so far I'll stick with what has worked 100% of the time for me.

Last edited by JSeery; 10-25-2020 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 10-25-2020, 09:10 AM   #27
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Never having used Speed-bleeders; how do you tell when there are no more air bubbles?
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Old 10-25-2020, 09:19 AM   #28
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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You seem to use a different method of bleeding brakes than I do. I have never used speed bleeders or any other aids like that. Been doing brakes from the time I was around 14 and have never had the slightest problem bleeding them. The way I have always done them you apply a lot of foot pressure on the brake pedal, crack the bleed screw, then retighten it. I'm sure there are other ways to go about it, but so far I'll stick with what has worked 100% of the time for me.
By all means, you should continue using whatever method works for you.
'Speed bleeders' are a different animal.
The pedal is depressed while the bleeder is open and without pre-pumping to build up pressure.
Then, after a few pumps and with the pedal in the return position, the bleeder is closed without ever putting pressure on the wheel cylinder.
This is possible because the bleeder has a check valve built in so that on the back stroke no air is allowed to be sucked back into the system, like standard bleeders that have to be closed after each stroke.
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Old 10-25-2020, 09:21 AM   #29
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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Never having used Speed-bleeders; how do you tell when there are no more air bubbles?
By looking at the clear drain tube, if you choose to.
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Old 10-25-2020, 11:09 AM   #30
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Mike 42: When you get done bleeding you'll probably want to adjust your brakes for optimum performance.
This thread tells how. I use a 2 x 4 and a bathroom scale as a pedal jack.
Don't forget to also adjust your emergency brake.
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...40+ford+brakes
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Old 10-25-2020, 11:49 AM   #31
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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How much pressure is being is being exerted on the wheel cylinder when the bleeder is open and the brake pedal goes to the floor?
To reiterate my post #11:
I believe my quote is perhaps the best way I am able to respond...
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Old 10-25-2020, 02:27 PM   #32
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

I think BEFORE I bled the brakes I would adjust them??
Paul in CT
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Old 10-25-2020, 02:41 PM   #33
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

W O W..... 32 posts, just to bleed f-n brakes? I just finished brakes on a 52 Willys, starting with a completely 'open', 'empty' system. Took about two of those small cans. Never knew I had to know all that is posted here. Whew... I'm exhausted.
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Old 10-25-2020, 03:08 PM   #34
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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W O W..... 32 posts, just to bleed f-n brakes? I just finished brakes on a 52 Willys, starting with a completely 'open', 'empty' system. Took about two of those small cans. Never knew I had to know all that is posted here. Whew... I'm exhausted.
Funny/Sad/Spot-on! WHEW....I feel kind'a 'whooped' now, too! DD
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Old 10-25-2020, 03:14 PM   #35
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Guys I worked on it today and it’s getting better but we have snow coming in northern Michigan the next couple days. Barn not heated so I think this will have wait til Spring. I appreciate all the help and I’ll be back in touch. I saved all this info to refer to in Spring.

Thx.....Mike
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Old 10-25-2020, 03:48 PM   #36
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Mike, Wow, i looked on the map and you are pretty far North. Can you buy a little space heater and get the job done before spring?
I know that's easy for me to say living in FL where its 78 right now.
Any neighbors who could help you?
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Old 10-25-2020, 04:34 PM   #37
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W O W..... 32 posts, just to bleed f-n brakes? I just finished brakes on a 52 Willys, starting with a completely 'open', 'empty' system. Took about two of those small cans. Never knew I had to know all that is posted here. Whew... I'm exhausted.
Can't disagree with that!
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Old 10-25-2020, 04:49 PM   #38
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Fordy..... I live on a big Lake up here and only have a couple of neighbors through the Winter season. In fact we have 2 ladies pass away this last month and there’s really no one around. I’ll probably try to work a little bit with the heater I’ve got but it’s pretty cold and snow tonight and morning. I’ll advise.

Thx........Mike
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Old 10-25-2020, 06:54 PM   #39
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

speedbleeders are one of the best things I ever bought. After reassembling the diff and installing it I pumped the pedal slowly, always slowly and not all the way to the floor on a single circuit system. Cracked the far RHS bleeder open and I heard a rush of air, then a further 5 pumps making sure the clear tube has fluid with no air lock it off over to the other side 5 pumps done! Didn't even worry about the front, nice hard pedal and all done myself, easy.
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Old 10-25-2020, 07:40 PM   #40
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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speedbleeders are one of the best things I ever bought. After reassembling the diff and installing it I pumped the pedal slowly, always slowly and not all the way to the floor on a single circuit system. Cracked the far RHS bleeder open and I heard a rush of air, then a further 5 pumps making sure the clear tube has fluid with no air lock it off over to the other side 5 pumps done! Didn't even worry about the front, nice hard pedal and all done myself, easy.
I believe pushing pedal SLOWLY is the 'key' element here. DD
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Old 10-26-2020, 11:37 AM   #41
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

I'll second what Talkwrench said... I installed a set of speed bleeders on my 40 and they worked great! Took about 10 mins. to get the brakes bled, and not having to listen to the wife, girlfriend or daughter bitch about having to pump the pedal was priceless.
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Old 10-26-2020, 12:28 PM   #42
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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I'll second what Talkwrench said... I installed a set of speed bleeders on my 40 and they worked great! Took about 10 mins. to get the brakes bled, and not having to listen to the wife, girlfriend or daughter bitch about having to pump the pedal was priceless.
You got both? You lucky dog!
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Old 10-26-2020, 01:41 PM   #43
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

I always considered brake bleeding a social event!!!
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Old 10-26-2020, 02:54 PM   #44
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I always considered brake bleeding a social event!!!
But don't forget "social distancing"......6 ft. and the mask! Bleed-on! DD
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Old 10-26-2020, 05:23 PM   #45
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But don't forget "social distancing"......6 ft. and the mask! Bleed-on! DD
Drivers seat to wheel cylinders should do it.
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Old 10-26-2020, 06:53 PM   #46
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I always considered brake bleeding a social event!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN View Post
But don't forget "social distancing"......6 ft. and the mask! Bleed-on! DD
Bought these a couple of weeks ago, think they are capitalizing on current events.
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Old 10-26-2020, 06:54 PM   #47
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

I've never had the pleasure of working with non-US brake parts, but from the post here on the Barn it appears they can have multiple issues.
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Old 10-27-2020, 02:39 PM   #48
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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You got both? You lucky dog!
Not at the same time... I always knew better than that
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Old 10-27-2020, 04:10 PM   #49
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

I'm surprised no one has mentioned using a pressure bleeder. If you can borrow or rent one, that is the best way in my opinon.
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Old 11-01-2020, 08:31 AM   #50
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

There is a God ! First.....he invented Jack Daniels.........second I’m finally getting some pedal pressure after starting at rear wheel, but then I went to the front right. No leaks, but some pressure. Ordered new rears from C&G and will be here Monday.

Getting 3” of snow here today so I may not be able to start on the rears.

Thx all......Mike
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Old 11-01-2020, 01:27 PM   #51
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

RIGHT rear, LEFT rear, LEFT front, RIGHT front. JMO
Paul in CT
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Old 11-01-2020, 02:23 PM   #52
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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There is a God ! First.....he invented Jack Daniels.........second Iím finally getting some pedal pressure after starting at rear wheel, but then I went to the front right. No leaks, but some pressure. Ordered new rears from C&G and will be here Monday.

Getting 3Ē of snow here today so I may not be able to start on the rears.

Thx all......Mike
Sounds like progress, but something is still not correct. Bleeding brakes should not be that big a deal at all.
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Old 11-01-2020, 03:08 PM   #53
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

It shouldn't but some of the struggles are familiar. Without speed bleeders I messed around for weeks.
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Old 11-01-2020, 04:51 PM   #54
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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right rear, left rear, left front, right front. Jmo
paul in ct
Nope! RR, LR, RF, LF

Probably just a typo.
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Old 11-01-2020, 06:38 PM   #55
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Nope! RR, LR, RF, LF

Probably just a typo.
Thats not how we do it "Down Under"
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Old 11-01-2020, 06:46 PM   #56
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Start with wheel cylinder farthest away from the master cylinder and end at the closest.
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Old 11-01-2020, 08:07 PM   #57
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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Thats not how we do it "Down Under"
Is this how y'all do it "Down Under"? DD

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Old 11-01-2020, 09:07 PM   #58
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

I think it would help future generations if we again taught auto mechanics in our high school shop classes. All this "needless bleeding" would stop.
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Old 11-01-2020, 09:38 PM   #59
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Is this how y'all do it "Down Under"? DD

Damn that would make it so much easier!
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Old 11-02-2020, 05:00 AM   #60
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

You guys are beautiful !! LOL

The only reason I went from right rear to right front is that I already had jack stands set up on both. Too lazy to take jack stand down and use at left rear. Plus it was 25ļ out yesterday with 45 mph wind gusts !!

We got 4" of snow yesterday and we're now going to be in the 50's and 60's later this week. Unreal and stupid, but...that's Michigan weather. I'll be back at it again this week some more.

I know this shouldn't be this tough to do, but when you've never done it before it's not all that easy.

Thx all....Mike
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Old 11-02-2020, 10:00 AM   #61
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Mike42:

Here is the correct order for bleeding drum brakes starting with the wheel farthest from the master cylinder and then bleeding each of the other wheels in decreasing distance order from the master cylinder.

1.Right Rear 2. Left Rear 3. Right Front 4. Left Front

Bleeding Process
Begin at the wheel furthest from the driver and proceed in order toward the driver. (Right rear, left rear, right front, left front.) While the actual sequence is not critical to the bleed performance it is easy to remember the sequence as the farthest to the closest. This will also allow the system to be bled in such a way as to minimize the amount of potential cross-contamination between the new and old fluid.
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Old 11-02-2020, 06:29 PM   #62
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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Mike42:

Here is the correct order for bleeding drum brakes starting with the wheel farthest from the master cylinder and then bleeding each of the other wheels in decreasing distance order from the master cylinder.

1.Right Rear 2. Left Rear 3. Right Front 4. Left Front

Bleeding Process
Begin at the wheel furthest from the driver and proceed in order toward the driver. (Right rear, left rear, right front, left front.) While the actual sequence is not critical to the bleed performance it is easy to remember the sequence as the farthest to the closest. This will also allow the system to be bled in such a way as to minimize the amount of potential cross-contamination between the new and old fluid.
We would never be able to agree. Farthest, nearest, whatever, I've NEVER been able to understand what difference it makes. 'Course, I'm new to this game. I only have about 65 years into it so far. Referring to my post #33, and starting with a completely open, clean, 'no-fluid-in-it' system, and with all the bleeder screws OUT, here's all I did... Bled the M/C (It was fresh and empty, too.) 2. Gave couple pumps to m/c, and see where fluid comes out. It came out of RF. 3. Put bleeder back in RF, loose, gave it one more pump, close RF bleeder. (No helper, working alone.) 4. Repeat step 2. Fluid came out RR. 5. Repeat step 3. 6. Repeat step 2 & 3 (LR). 7. Repeat again (LF). 8. DONE. I've got a firm pedal. And, what the heck if I missed a little air. It's going to work it's way out, anyway.
'Course, I have other ways of doing it, too. When I'm working on modern cars, and simply flushing the system, I use a vacuum pump system, working through a glass jar. That way I'm able to see when the contaminated fluid ends, and fresh fluid starts. For this scenario, I finish with a couple of aggressive pumps on the pedal, in attempt to flush whatever wheel cylinder I'm working on.
And, for really difficult systems, and only once have I done this, I have pumped the fluid backwards. An aircraft mechanic taught me this, many years ago.
And, if I happen to have a helper, I've done the 'hold the pedal down, let me pop the bleeder, close it'.
Worse situation I've run into, is 'home-builts', where the fabricator routed a line from a high-mounted m/c, down to the frame, then, somewhere along the plumbing path, the line was routed higher (usually to go over something). This creates a place for air to collect, and a spongy pedal. Air won't work it's way out of one of these 'trapped' high spots. I have a friend with a Bonneville Studebaker, with the brakes plumbed this way. And, he is always fighting a spongy pedal. He can bleed, and bleed, and get a firm pedal one day. Next morning, it's spongy.
Obviously, lengthy, windy opinion.
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Old 11-02-2020, 07:41 PM   #63
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Anyone have the Ford Training manual telling exactly how the Ford Lockheed Style brakes were to be bled, including the wheel sequence?
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Old 11-02-2020, 08:10 PM   #64
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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Worse situation I've run into, is 'home-builts', where the fabricator routed a line from a high-mounted m/c, down to the frame, then, somewhere along the plumbing path, the line was routed higher (usually to go over something). This creates a place for air to collect, and a spongy pedal. Air won't work it's way out of one of these 'trapped' high spots. I have a friend with a Bonneville Studebaker, with the brakes plumbed this way. And, he is always fighting a spongy pedal. He can bleed, and bleed, and get a firm pedal one day. Next morning, it's spongy.
It is a fairly common practice to place several loops into the brake lines near the master cylinder to reduce stress on them. I add them on all of my installs. The way I bleed brakes (which I thought was the way everyone did it until this thread, LOL), this doesn't present the slightest problem.
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Old 11-03-2020, 02:26 AM   #65
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

In response to post 64...
Sorry, I don't have a training manual. I have two manuals that are identified as published by Ford Motor Company, one from 1942, and one from 1948. Neither exactly address your question, but rather, use words like "repeat at the other three wheels". (not an exact quote)

edit... in an effort to address the question in post 64, I've looked at more manuals. I have found several manuals that specify 'sequence'. Just one example is the 1950 Motor's Manual. It says "Start at the wheel cylinder to which the brake fluid travels the greatest distance from the master cylinder (right rear wheel)." Further on it says "repeat the process on the other wheels in turn, always moving to the wheel which is the greatest distance from the master cylinder of those remaining to be bled."
(... a 'windy' way of agreeing with post 62.)
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Old 11-03-2020, 08:46 AM   #66
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Guys...going to be in the 60's this coming weekend up here in Northern Michigan so I'll have the chance to get at this again.

Fordy I ran a copy of your write up and will start sometime later this week.

Thx all....Mike
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Old 11-03-2020, 02:03 PM   #67
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Took some time to jack up the right rear wheel and hooked up the bleeder and all of a sudden the rear wheel cylinder started shooting fluid all over the place !! Glad I ordered new rear cylinders. Weather is nice so I thought I'd take the chance. All I can surmise is that the new master put out more pressure than the old one and that was a weak point.

I bought one of those rear hub removal tools and will try to take off the drum another day.

Sure a lot of drama related to all this !! Geez....

Thx...Mike
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Old 11-03-2020, 02:46 PM   #68
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

I had this issue when i replaced all the cylinders and the master in my 48 plymouth special deluxe. The original master always had a 2 pump pedal once I did the cylinders and new shoes all around. The new master was a three pump pedal. Drivable, but a little scary.

The fix? Jack up the car and adjust the brakes with the adjusting cam so they just spin by hand with tension. Bleed the brakes, and redjust a slight turn. I have a one pump pedal now, and after 5 miles of driving the brakes didnt catch anymore.
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Old 11-03-2020, 03:22 PM   #69
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

This thread should get a special "Longest Running Question" award. But, that's fine if it helps solve the problems.
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Old 11-03-2020, 04:14 PM   #70
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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All I can surmise is that the new master put out more pressure than the old one and that was a weak point.
Thx...Mike
The MC does not "create" pressure. Your foot, the length of the lever, and MC's bore diameter is what creates pressure! You DID have the drum MOUNTED on the axle when this occurred, right? DD
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Old 11-05-2020, 05:10 AM   #71
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Fordy .....this has really been a learning curve for me. I’m 78 years old and have been in the automotive business since I was 21, but only did one brake job ! I drag raced with Ford in early 60’s but it was always about engine and trans stuff. I love this stuff !

Coop .....yes drum was still on and the leakage poured out the bottom of drum and backing plate. New rear cylinder arrived yesterday and will try to install with new shoes in next few days if weather holds up.

Thx......Mike
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Old 11-05-2020, 09:09 AM   #72
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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Fordy .....this has really been a learning curve for me. Iím 78 years old and have been in the automotive business since I was 21, but only did one brake job ! I drag raced with Ford in early 60ís but it was always about engine and trans stuff. I love this stuff !

Coop .....yes drum was still on and the leakage poured out the bottom of drum and backing plate. New rear cylinder arrived yesterday and will try to install with new shoes in next few days if weather holds up.

Thx......Mike
The bad/junk wheel cylinder was most likely your problem all along.
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Old 11-05-2020, 10:20 AM   #73
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I used that special tool to pop off the drum from axle and yes it was a pretty good "POP" !! I thought at first I broke something. All is fine there, but the drum will only come off about a 1/2" and is stuck. Is there anything special I can do to bring it home. Brake Drum Puller maybe ? If so who would sell them. I'm making a career of all this for God's sake !

Seery I'm sure it was.

Thx...Mike
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Old 11-05-2020, 11:11 AM   #74
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Mike, I admire and respect your tenacity and your love of the hobby. To remove the "popped" drum turn the top adjusters so shoes are all the way "in". Also turn the bottom adjusters so shoes retract.

Make sure emergency brake is released all the way. Also, "whack" the sides of the drum with a lead or brass hammer to "shake the shoes" and loosen the drum. Some folks try to use a long screwdriver as a lever to pry off the drum side or side a little at a time. Not sure this is the best idea, though.
Hang in there. You will prevail.
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Old 11-05-2020, 12:43 PM   #75
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Once it pops, they are loose. It is the shoes that are hanging up now, and there may be a lip worn on the edge of the drum that doesn't help.

"I'm making a career of all this for God's sake !"

Consider it a hands on training course, 4 year collage in some cases!
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Old 11-05-2020, 03:00 PM   #76
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Fordy and Seery thx. I'll try this. I also am looking for a drum puller online to try that too. I sure hope I don't turn 80 before I get this all done !!!

Thx again....Mike
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Old 11-05-2020, 04:56 PM   #77
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Mike the best hub puller is the KRW style that Winfield Tool Works made. Perhaps there is a Fordbarner in MI that will let you borrow theirs. Winfield doesn't make them anymore. Wish you lived closer, you could use mine. Whatever you do, do not use the old style universal hub puller with the 3 legs.
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Old 11-05-2020, 07:05 PM   #78
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I used that special tool to pop off the drum from axle and yes it was a pretty good "POP" !! I thought at first I broke something. All is fine there, but the drum will only come off about a 1/2" and is stuck. Is there anything special I can do to bring it home. Brake Drum Puller maybe ? If so who would sell them. I'm making a career of all this for God's sake !

Seery I'm sure it was.

Thx...Mike
"Fordy and Seery thx. I'll try this. I also am looking for a drum puller online to try that too"

Ok, now I'm confused, you used a drum puller and it worked, but now you're looking for a drum puller??? Once the drum "pops" loose, that is it for the puller, after that it is a question of getting the drum off of the brake shoes. This can sometimes be a chore, but there is no puller involved.

Did you not like the puller you used?
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Old 11-05-2020, 07:12 PM   #79
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Mr. Seery: I was thinking the same thing. Once a drum is "pulled" there's no such thing as a second puller.

MIKE: If possible, post photos of what you are dealing with.
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Old 11-06-2020, 09:13 AM   #80
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Fordy and Seery.....BINGO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Once I turned in the brake adjustments it started to move. I kept tapping the drum and guess what....the damn thing fell off !!!!

NOW....you would not believe the mess of fluid and sludge and crap that is in there. I have a big clean up job before I even think of replacing the shows and cylinder. It is such a damn mess

I think these are the original brake shoes.

Okay...I'm leaving you guys alone for awhile. I have a big clean up to do.

Thx again for everything.....Mike
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Old 11-06-2020, 09:36 AM   #81
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Mike, Great news. Take photos of everything BEFORE, DURING and after you remove the brake shoes. Also, the lower adjusters ride in brass "cam" washers so make sure you clean them really well with brake cleaner. I reassemble the adjusters screws/nuts and cams with a dab of anti seize compound. If you remove them, be sure to take photos of how they are assembled. Be sure to properly reinstall the two bottom adjusters so that the little "dots" on them line up properly in order to adjust your brakes.

When you reinstall the drum, don't forget the little fiber washer/ gasket that fits under the axle nut washer. If you don't have one, make one out of a piece of leather, like from an old belt. Don't use serrated vise jaws on the emergency cable as you will fray and weaken the cable. Look at post # 6 here.
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...xle+nut+washer

and here

http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/F...rbrakeassy.jpg

Last edited by 19Fordy; 11-06-2020 at 09:47 AM.
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Old 11-06-2020, 12:35 PM   #82
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

I bought a Winfield about 6 years ago and never used it. I used that to pop the drum, but it would not pull out. Once I adjusted the brakes as told to.....I just tapped lightly around the drum while pulling on it and it fell off ! I just needed to do the brake adjustment thing.

I plan on taking pictures as I looked over all the mechanisms and also drawings I got online. I think that will be a chore too !

Just got back from shop in town and they don't know if they can turn these drums. Might have to buy new, but hate to do that as there's still a lot of meat on the originals. We'll see in time, but I need to get all the shoes and cylinder out first and clean up this mess. Went through 2 cans of brake cleaner so far. I've never seen anything like this before. Gooey sludge all over the place. The shoes are soaked with fluid and oil and sludge. If I could post a photo I would, but never had any luck doing that sorry !!

Thx for all the info and I now have to start lawn clean up of leaves and acorns. Good weather here right now at 66ļ degrees and that's good for Northern Michigan this time off the year.

Mike
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Old 11-06-2020, 12:49 PM   #83
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

You can email me any photos you want posted: jseery@ymail.com
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Old 11-06-2020, 12:50 PM   #84
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Even if you buy new drums they need to be turned after put on the hub, the turning limitations are most likely they don't have a machine the rear drums fit on because the arbor on newer machines is too large to fit through the axle taper
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Old 11-06-2020, 01:17 PM   #85
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If I could post a photo I would, but never had any luck doing that sorry !!
Mike
I continue to find it difficult to comprehend why it seems so hard for some folks to post pictures on this FordBarn. If you were able to post your avatar picture as below, you have the capability of posting your brake (or ANY other) pictures. If you will choose the "GO ADVANCED" window to post with, you will see the PAPER CLIP icon.....( ) at the upper, center of that window, just to the right of the white SMILEY FACE. If you can access that PAPER CLIP, posting pics on the 'Barn is a piece of cake! OR...e-mail your pics to me or JSeery and we'll post 'em for ya. Hell, we need to see all those leaves in your yard! DD





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Old 11-06-2020, 01:36 PM   #86
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Mike: You can legally "turn" stock 40 brake drums to 12.060 in. inside dia.
DO NOT THROW AWAY YOUR used BRAKE SHOES as some of the reproduction shoes have the bottom adjuster holes in the correct location. Buy new shoes from a Fordbarner, if possible or a high quality parts company. Do NOT exchange your old shoes when you buy new ones! Keep them, just in case new ones are "bad". You can always turn them in later. In fact, you might want to keep them as they are becoming rare.

When all done, don't forget to adjust your emergency brake.

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Old 11-06-2020, 01:39 PM   #87
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

The posting problems are almost always file size.
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Old 11-06-2020, 02:41 PM   #88
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

This is the reduced diameter arbor that is used on an Ammco brake lathe to turn the rear drums as compared to the standard arbor in the foreground.

I sent this picture to one fellow and he showed it to the guy at the brake shop; who it turned out had the small arbor; but didn't realize what it was for.
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Old 11-06-2020, 02:51 PM   #89
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

If you pulled hard on the brake shoes you might have bent the retaining clips and guides. I just rebuilt some brakes and had to straighten those parts. If they are bent hopefully you will be able to just carefully tap them back straight as I was able to do.

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Old 11-06-2020, 03:24 PM   #90
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Coop......you don't want to see the leaves that fall here. I have 30 oak trees and 15 pines. All on 1.5 acres on Otsego Lake up here. It is a never ending job in the Fall.

As far as sending photos....I have used 3 cans of brake cleaner already to just see what I have here. It was packed with runny sludge, so I really can't show you now what a mess it was. The 3rd can finally got me to a point to start looking at the mechanism and what lays ahead for me. More later....thx
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Old 11-06-2020, 03:32 PM   #91
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Fordy .....I have not thrown anything away yet, as I could not even see what all I had until I washed it all off. Once I get it cleaned I'll be able to match the new shoes with the old. I bought the whole braking kit from C & G about 6 years ago. The fronts all seemed to match up okay. I hope the rear will be the same. Didn't have to send back as an exchange. I already threw out the fronts and didn't look to see if they had a Ford Logo on them These rears MUST be original. The car has 86,000 original miles and I'm the 3rd owner in 80 years. can you imagine that ?? Once I get things all cleaned up I plan on taking photos and disassembly piece by piece. I could NOT see the complete wheel cylinder because of the sludge build up !

Thx.....Mike
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Old 11-06-2020, 03:32 PM   #92
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Mike, All that brake cleaner will dissolve paint off backing plates, etc. Be sure to repaint
prior to reassembly. Take your time and do a super, duper job. This thread has been so long I forget if you have already removed front drums and inspected everything. If not, be sure to do so.
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Old 11-06-2020, 03:33 PM   #93
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Mart.....I didn't bend anything. As soon as I turned the adjusters it fell off while I was tapping the drum ! It surprised the hell out of me !

Mike
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Old 11-06-2020, 03:37 PM   #94
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Fordy .....The fronts ....I washed them also with Brake cleaner and they were pretty clean. I wiped every down after I wire brushed but didn't paint. I bought a case of brake cleaner. I may have to buy another case !!

Mike
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Old 11-06-2020, 03:39 PM   #95
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Rich B.......thx for that photo. They were telling me that I would have to remove the bearings and seal and have the hub pressed out before turning. I'm in the process of cleaning up the drum. It too was loaded with grease, dirt and sludge !

Thx
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Old 11-06-2020, 03:41 PM   #96
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Kurt....I may be buying new drums, but the meat on originals is really pretty thick. The Shop told me to save them at all costs as it is good metal and not what you buy today !!! Sound familiar ?

Thx
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Old 11-06-2020, 03:43 PM   #97
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Guys....thanks to all for this drama ! The drum is off and the leaves picked up for the day and in Northern Michigan it's boozing time and my buddy Jack Daniels is calling ! Just sayin'.....

Mike
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Old 11-06-2020, 04:25 PM   #98
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Coop......you don't want to see the leaves that fall here. I have 30 oak trees and 15 pines. All on 1.5 acres on Otsego Lake up here. It is a never ending job in the Fall.
Ha.....We have 2-1/4 acres here with just over 80 trees....many huge Yellow Pines, along with some Red Oaks and seven Cedar trees. We know all about pine straw and leaves in the fall. Glad you got your drum off without any further ado. DD
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Old 11-07-2020, 07:52 AM   #99
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Morning .... I remembered I did take one photo after I used 3 cans of brake cleaner. I'll send to your emails. Look at the sludge that is still hanging from right shoe. The whole thing was filled with sludge and crude !

I tried attaching here but I don't know what to do.

Mike
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Old 11-07-2020, 07:55 AM   #100
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Don't have your email addresses sorry !
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Old 11-07-2020, 08:19 AM   #101
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Hi Mike, this is a good post on attaching pictures:


https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...cture+advanced


Glenn
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Old 11-07-2020, 08:37 AM   #102
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Morning again....quick question....the shops in my town say I need to remove the hub before they can chuck the drum for turning. I assume that I need to get someone with a press to remove correct ?
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Old 11-07-2020, 09:31 AM   #103
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Then you are at the wrong place, the original studs are swaged (like rivited), just pushing the studs out can damage the hub and drum, the swaged area needs to be cut ---
there is a small arbor for some modern machines that can be used ---or find someone with old barrett, that machine has adapters that fit in the wheel bearing, don't even have to remove the seal,
drums should be turned after mounted on the hub
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Old 11-07-2020, 10:23 AM   #104
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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Morning again....quick question....the shops in my town say I need to remove the hub before they can chuck the drum for turning. I assume that I need to get someone with a press to remove correct ?
Not a good plan! I am sure they are correct, "they" can not do the job with the drum attached to the hub, but that doesn't make it a good idea from your prospective. Need to find someone that has the proper equipment to turn the banjo era Ford drums.
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Old 11-07-2020, 10:28 AM   #105
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Mike; Don't let just any old shop "learn on your drums". Do your homework. Here's a thread that may help.
Kurt is correct.
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...e-hubs.229242/
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Old 11-07-2020, 10:30 AM   #106
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Quote:
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Morning again....quick question....the shops in my town say I need to remove the hub before they can chuck the drum for turning. I assume that I need to get someone with a press to remove correct ?
You need to find a shop with the right equipment.

Did anyone mic the drums to check the ID?

If there was enough of a lip to hang the shoes; they may very well be worn out.

You can't just press the studs out as the are swaged in place.

If the shop doesn't know this; then they won't have the tools to cut
the swage and swage new studs in place.

If they are worn beyond limits; new drums are in order.

New drums are cast and don't use swaged studs. Hubs need to be fitted with press in studs.

If all else fails, while pricey, a set of Boling Bros drums along with a set of their hubs is something to think about.
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Old 11-07-2020, 01:00 PM   #107
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Are they worn out? If not too bad they might be able to be used without being skimmed. Some photos and measurements would be useful. The back brakes are not as critical as the front ones.

Skimming isn't always a necessity and then having extra problems associated with trying to get them skimmed may be able to be avoided.

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Old 11-07-2020, 02:22 PM   #108
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Don't have your email addresses sorry !
Mike.....My e-mail is:

roundmotor@outlook.com

The guys above are all right......DO NOT separate that drum and hub. That shop obviously hasn't a clue, and may very well render your drums useless. I have heard that shops doing old Beetle brakes have an arbor that will work. AND, don't forget that drum resto outfit in Illinois. I can find their contact if you desire!! DD
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Old 11-07-2020, 03:05 PM   #109
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Coop.....sent you a photo ! I’ll get back later on the other guys comments. I’ve been outside all day.

Thx......Mike
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Old 11-07-2020, 03:16 PM   #110
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Coop.....sent you a photo ! Iíll get back later on the other guys comments. Iíve been outside all day.

Thx......Mike
TA-DA....here you go! DD

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Old 11-07-2020, 03:27 PM   #111
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Mike. Before you do anything, "mike" the ID of each drum and then go from there. You might find that the drums are still good to use. If there is a tiny ridge use a hand file and remove it.

You can be sure that "back in the day" drums didn't need hubs removed to turn the drums. That would be too costly and labor intensive. Be patient and find the right shop. There are folks who still have those brake lathes.

I have used the Boling Brothers replacement drums and hubs. They are excellent. Not cheap.
If you end up buying them reuse your old wheel bearings as the new reproduction bearings are of dubious quality.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_6082small.jpg (58.9 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6083small.jpg (57.2 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_5549 (Small).jpg (38.2 KB, 8 views)

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Old 11-08-2020, 04:28 AM   #112
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Morning Gentlemen .....It was a long day yesterday cleaning up this place and also my Grand Daughters made a visit and there was wine and pizza and well....you know where that time goes !

First ...Coop thx for posting that. I know you guys can't imagine how dirty this drum and brake was, but this is after 3 cans of spray and I wire brushed it also. There was sludge and crap so bad I could not see the parking brake mechanism. I took a few minutes yesterday to wire brush and spray again. It's looking better. I have to believe that these brakes were never changed since build date May 1940.

Glenn ....thx for the link on posting. Ive used computers since '87 and I never had so much trouble attaching a photo. Strange....! I'll be trying again.

Right now I plan on getting all the brake area cleaned and new brakes installed. I will then address the drum. There is still good strong material thickness left to be turned and yes I plan on taking my time with this. I have always tried to keep the old parts if possible and to repair them so it's still original. I cleaned up the drum and there is a very slight ridge on the edge. Understand that the town I live in is not Detroit where there are a lot of machine shops I could turn to. I'm limited to a certain degree, but once I get the new shoes installed I can address the drum issue. I'll have all Winter to do that, as the weather is turning bad next week and I would not be out in the barn too much longer. Not heated.

I sincerely appreciate all the help on this very much ! If it wasn't for you guys and YouTube I would still be trying to get the damn drum off !!

One last question for the day....I read all the notes regarding the drums and can the lug heads be ground down and then be pressed out and then the hub just comes off or does that also have to be pressed out ? The worst thing that could happen is to buy new, but would like to save the original hubs if at all possible. I had no bearing noise at each wheel. This car rolls pretty sweet and very solid, but most of it's life was sitting in a barn all during the World War II and then from 1957 to 1987 and then 1992 til 2012 in another barn until I bought it. I'm a very lucky guy to have found it. I love this shit.....!!

Going to make coffee....

Thx again all......Mike
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Old 11-08-2020, 09:21 AM   #113
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Hi Mike,


What a mess!


I posted a step by step image document on posting attachments. I added to the existing thread I posted above. The direct link is this:


https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showp...8&postcount=18


Glenn


PS Don't press the hubs out!!
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Old 11-08-2020, 10:09 AM   #114
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Mike: LISTEN TO glennpmm. Don't press the hubs out.

"MiC" the drum ID and then if it is below 12.060 in. use it. From what you say that car has sat for so much of it's life that the drums are probably still good to use. Measure the ID and find out first BEFORE doing anything rash.

From the looks of the photo V8 posted the brake shoes don't have much wear.
I bet you can use the drums "as is".

Last edited by 19Fordy; 11-08-2020 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 11-08-2020, 11:36 AM   #115
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Glenn and Fordy .....

Removed the old seal and took out the bearing and cleaned all that crap out of there. I will measure the ID this afternoon. It has a "very small ridge" (1/64) around the inner cirumference(sp) and has grooves in the brake area but they are not real deep ! I'm hoping that now I have everything apart that maybe they can chuck it on a lathe to turn and take a skin cut. I'll know Monday as I really don't want to remove the hub.

I'll take a photo and try the link Glenn sent me later today. Still cleaning up leaves since it's 70ļ day in Northern Michigan. Very unusual for this time of the year !

Early this morning I sprayed the brake area again and wire brushed it all out. It's getting cleaner each time I do it. I'll be taking that apart on Monday and clean and paint the backing plate.

Thanks all and more later.

Mike
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Old 11-08-2020, 11:51 AM   #116
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Problems with photo posting is almost always because of file size! Get the file size correct and it should be a piece of cake. When people send me photos to post for them they tend to be in the several Mb range!! They need to be around 500Kb max.
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Old 11-08-2020, 12:10 PM   #117
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

It might not be necessary to skim. The brakes will bed in to the drums after some use.
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Old 11-08-2020, 01:24 PM   #118
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Oh Boy......I just came back from the barn and started to unbolt the wheel cylinder.....guess what...only "ONE" bolt was holding it in place !!!! I wash it all again....and brushed and the brake shoes are stamped FORD script. There is also an 88 stamping next to it or it's a reverse B and the right next to it is a regular B.

Seery.....I took a photo of the ridges in the braking service and will attempt to send a photo.

Mart.....the ridges are not deep like the fronts. I'm going back to the shop in morning to see if they can chuck it now that the seal and bearing is removed. That seal was all chewed up !! Hell of a time getting it out though, but in finally broke loose. Photos later if I can make it work !!

Thx....Mike
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Old 11-08-2020, 01:35 PM   #119
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

If they can't be turned, do as Mart above says. JMO
Paul in CT
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Old 11-08-2020, 01:46 PM   #120
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31Flam.......I just may do that after I talk with the guys in town in morning. Thx

Fordy....I just MIC'd the ID diameter and it's almost on 12.06 as best as I can see. I went across the top of the ridges in braking surface. These drums are the originals as there is still an outer crust from casting around the edges. I would like to save.

Seery.....File is too big to send a photo !

Thx....Mike
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Old 11-08-2020, 01:52 PM   #121
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Quote:
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Seery.....File is too big to send a photo !

Thx....Mike
The file is so large you can't send it as an email??? Might need to tame the camera/phone down, LOL.

Really no reason to take pictures at that pixel level.
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Old 11-09-2020, 02:17 AM   #122
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

.

This is Mike42's really nice Ford tractor that he just finished restoring recently. Cool young tractor driver, for sure! DD

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Old 11-09-2020, 10:53 AM   #123
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Went into town and talked with 4 shops and no one has an arbor small enough to chuck the small hub hole. Going to go with Mart's suggestion and go from there.

Thx....Mike
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Old 11-09-2020, 11:11 AM   #124
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

mike42:

Here is a thread that you must read. It deals specifically with your drum turning problem.
Very informative.

Then PM the folks in the thread who may be able to help you. Get phone numbers so you can really discuss your situation. Lots of folks don't like to spend time on the keyboard 'pecking out" replies. Too time consuming.
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34184
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Old 11-09-2020, 04:40 PM   #125
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Hey Fordy thx ........

I got everything removed in the brakes. The mess under all that stuff is just incredible. I keep saying that but geez what a damn mess.

The links for parking brake a swaged to the shoe bracket. Is there a work around to fit on new shoes ?

Thx for the info.

Mike
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Old 11-09-2020, 04:56 PM   #126
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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Parking brake links should be held by a pin with a circlip groove. You then use a deformable horseshoe clip in the groove. The pins for the rear shoes which take the main lever are longer than those for the front shoes.
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Last edited by Mart; 11-09-2020 at 05:02 PM.
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Old 11-09-2020, 05:49 PM   #127
19Fordy
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Mike 42: Not sure what you mean when you say, "The links for parking brake a swaged to the shoe bracket. Is there a work around to fit on new shoes ?"
The only thing swaged is the little ball at the end of the E-Brake cable that is swaged to the cable end.

If you are talking about how to "unhook or release" the parking brake cable ball end from the the brake lever, you first loosen the parking brake cable under the car where there is a cable tensioner attached to the cable. With the tension released, you pull the cable so it slips out of it's receptacle on the brake lever. WRAP THE CABLE WITH A PIECE OF LEATHER OF HOSE TP PROTECT IT FROM GETTING FRAYED OR DAMAGED by vise grips. Here's several photos that may help. Don't forget to install the rubber boots on the emergency brake tube BEFORE you reassemble the cable into position. Also the little metal spring retainer clip.
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Old 11-10-2020, 01:14 AM   #128
mike42
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Fordy.......I’m referring to the links that are attached to the brake shoes that operate the parking brake. The new shoes do not have those links and the ones on the old shoes appear to be held onto the shoes by a swedged stud.
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Old 11-10-2020, 05:08 AM   #129
51 MERC-CT
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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Fordy.......Iím referring to the links that are attached to the brake shoes that operate the parking brake. The new shoes do not have those links and the ones on the old shoes appear to be held onto the shoes by a swedged stud.
The links are supposed to be attached using #2105 and #2107 that are each held in place by #2106 horseshoe clip.
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Old 11-10-2020, 07:07 AM   #130
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Another picture for you Mike
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Old 11-10-2020, 09:47 AM   #131
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Mike: As I recall you can remove those 'links" (pins) with a drift punch and a hammer.
Then reuse them.
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Old 11-10-2020, 11:17 AM   #132
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Merc, Glenn and Fordy many thx !!

I had to soak the old shoes in a cleaner last night and then took to a Powerwash to clean up all the gunk and sludge. These shoes I'm assuming are the originals from 80 years ago. The shoes are riveted and have the Ford Script stamped on each one.

I have work to do now and won't bother you for awhile. I do appreciate all the help !!

Regards.....Mike
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Old 11-12-2020, 12:19 PM   #133
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

I'm baaack !!

Mart.....where did you get those pins ? I had to grind away a weld puddle in order to remove them from the links.

Also....Did I read somewhere that the spindle should we wiped "very" clean as well as the as the area in drum that the spindle slides into ? I have cleaned the bearing and repacked it and installed the bearing with a new seal and clip that holds it all together..

Today may be my last at decent weather so I want to try and get as much done as possible. Snow is coming along with wind and rain !! Lovely....!

Thx again for all the help.

Mike
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Old 11-12-2020, 12:28 PM   #134
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

.

The tapered end of the axle (spindle?) should be CLEAN & DRY. No form of lubricant or "Never Seize" should ever be used on a tapered-fit application. It is intended to function just like a "Morse" taper does. This is one reason that the big drum-retention NUT really needs to be so tight. That perfect, pressed-together taper is what actually forms the bond which allows the transmission of torque....the slotted key DOES NOT transfer that driving torque. So, DRY and TIGHT it is! DD
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Old 11-12-2020, 12:39 PM   #135
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Hi Mike,

Many places sell them. I like Joe's Antique in Massachusetts.

ORDERS & INFORMATION: 1-508-278-3980
Toll Free: 1-800-508-3980 24 HOUR FAX: 1-508-278-2766
Email: joesantique@charter.net
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Old 11-12-2020, 01:55 PM   #136
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Coop and Glenn.....Guys this is Great !!!!!!!

Thx very much and I promise not to bother you for awhile !!!!!!

My fingers are crossed though !

Mike
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Old 11-12-2020, 04:10 PM   #137
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

I think you have it under control now ;-)
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Old 11-14-2020, 05:33 PM   #138
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Glenn yes I do and got it all assembled today as tomorrow is rain and snow.

I sincerely appreciate all the help on this. I’ll do left rear in Spring.

Thx ........Mike
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Old 11-14-2020, 06:35 PM   #139
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

One wheel a season, you'll be done in no time!
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Old 11-15-2020, 05:24 AM   #140
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Seery....I already had the fronts completed, but I was sitting there today after I got everything done and I started thinking....crap....I have the left rear now to do in Spring !! I hope I don't have the same mess as the right rear !!

Mike
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Old 11-23-2020, 09:06 AM   #141
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

One last question and I promise not to bother you again.....put the drum on and put in that small gasket & washer....screwed the bolt on and if I tighten too tight in order to get the cotter pin in....the wheel is tight to turn the wheel. If I back it off just a touch so I can put in the cotter pin......the wheel turns fine.
Sooooo...question is .....would the nut be too loose by just backing it off a bit ?

Thx....Mike
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Old 11-23-2020, 09:31 AM   #142
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Old time mechanics didn't have torque wrench pretty much there was snug --snug up the pan bolts tight--tighten the head nuts ,and good and tight--put a pipe on the wrench and jump on it.
the rear axle nuts are in the range of good and tight
Can you tell if it is rubbing on the shoes ,or backing plate, there can be a ridge in the drum rubbing on the edge of the shoes, --for this chamfer the edge of shoes with file, if rubbing on backing plate look for bent backing plate if it only rubs at one spot, worn taper on axle or hub if all around, they have shims for this at the parts places
??Is the axle keyway worn, --the key fit loose in groove, there can be burrs that need to be addressed
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Old 11-23-2020, 11:06 AM   #143
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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One last question and I promise not to bother you again.....put the drum on and put in that small gasket & washer....screwed the bolt on and if I tighten too tight in order to get the cotter pin in....the wheel is tight to turn the wheel. If I back it off just a touch so I can put in the cotter pin......the wheel turns fine.
Sooooo...question is .....would the nut be too loose by just backing it off a bit ?

Thx....Mike
You did not say whether you are talking about the front or rear but assuming it is the front wheel bearing adjustment, this is generally the procedure.
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Old 11-23-2020, 11:17 AM   #144
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike42 View Post
One last question and I promise not to bother you again.....put the drum on and put in that small gasket & washer....screwed the bolt on and if I tighten too tight in order to get the cotter pin in....the wheel is tight to turn the wheel. If I back it off just a touch so I can put in the cotter pin......the wheel turns fine.
Sooooo...question is .....would the nut be too loose by just backing it off a bit ?

Thx....Mike
Hey Mike.....You say...."the wheel is tight to turn the wheel". Did you mean to say something like:

"If I tighten the NUT enough to line-up the holes, neither the wheel nor axle will turn"?

And then, if you loosen the nut ONE notch, the wheel and axle WILL turn?

IF THIS is what is happening, I would think that there is a problem that needs, at the least, some serious scrutiny. Kurt addresses some real possibilities in post #142 above. It's hard for me to imagine tightening that nut only one notch's worth, and having enough effect that it moves the drum inboard enough to hinder rotation. Almost makes me consider a cracked hub in that drum, or possibly even a crack at the inboard end of the axle keyway, and man, I hope it ain't THAT. Generally, I wouldn't feel badly about loosening the nut ONLY one notch (although you ain't supposed to), but there is certainly something ELSE going-on there that needs to be rectified. But WTF do I know? Happy Thanksgiving, Mike! DD






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Old 11-23-2020, 11:22 AM   #145
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

[QUOTE=51 MERC-CT;1955310]You did not say whether you are talking about the front or rear but assuming it is the front wheel bearing adjustment, this is generally the procedure.

MERC....Mike had been working on the RIGHT, REAR. He previously said that he had already done the fronts. DD
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Old 11-23-2020, 12:07 PM   #146
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Mike, I know this sounds stupid but, gently install the drum and hub without the keyway and see what happens.
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Old 11-24-2020, 04:48 AM   #147
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Guys thx....want to get this buttoned up before the snow storm today.

Coop...yes exactly as you stated. If I tighten to be able to insert cotter pin the wheel will not turn. If I back it off just a bit and insert pin it's turns fine.

I had no probs with front. The nut happen to be almost inline with cotter pin hole !

Thx all very much !

Mike
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Old 11-24-2020, 08:35 AM   #148
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

No good, Mike. The nut needs to be extremely tight. and everything still needs to be free to turn.

You need to tighten it as much as you can and still be able to turn it. You can then pull it apart and look to see what is rubbing.

Have you adjusted them carefully taking into consideration the lower eccentric pivots?

Having it loose would be ok for just manoeuvring around the yard but for proper on road use you need the nuts very tight.

Loose nuts on the road lead to axle keyway fatigue and cracking and ultimately axle failure.

Mart.
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Old 11-24-2020, 09:06 AM   #149
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Mart.....going out today when it gets a little warmer (23ļ now) to tighten things up.

Thx for the info.

Mike
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Old 11-24-2020, 09:08 AM   #150
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Mart ....PS ...yes I have adjusted lower pivots to open.
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Old 11-24-2020, 02:05 PM   #151
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Yes, very tight. "tighten nut 356074-S to 200-220 foot pounds; then continue to the next castellation providing final resultant torque does not exceed 275 foot pounds.”

It is not the key that keeps the hub from rotating on the axle, it is the pressure on the taper from the nut. The tapers need to be very clean, smooth and dry when the hub is installed.
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Old Yesterday, 08:37 AM   #152
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

Guys....we got 5" of snow yesterday and I didn't get out to the barn. I've made a copy of all this and will pursue it as soon and things clear up.

Thx...Mike
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Old Yesterday, 11:37 AM   #153
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

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Guys....we got 5" of snow yesterday and I didn't get out to the barn. I've made a copy of all this and will pursue it as soon and things clear up.

Thx...Mike
Hey Mike..........It's 61įF here. Gonna be 72į this afternoon. NO snow here!

Yeah, I know....I KNOW! DD
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Old Yesterday, 01:08 PM   #154
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Default Re: 1940 Brake Bleeding

79 degrees here in south FL. 1 PM. Happy Day before Thanksgiving.
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