The Ford Barn

AAzz44 · 06-13-2020, 08:36 AM

Recent Model A Owner and I am having some troubling issues.

This past week I installed a new Zenith 1 – Air Balanced Carburetor, with the Hi Boy Air filter(from Macs). After installation I noticed the car would idle rough and backfire.

Thinking it could be an issue with the distributor I decided to check the timing and completed that task using the NuRex tool and instructions.
Now I cannot get my car to start at all. The very first try all I heard was an extremely loud pop, like a backfire. On the second attempt more loud popping sounds out of the tail pipe with some smoke.
I also noticed when I hit the Starter and let go the starter will not shut off unless I step on it again. Its as if its sticking.

At that point I gave up not knowing what to try next.

Any ideas what may be going on here?
Did I mess up on the timing?

I am at a loss. Appreciate any help one could provide.

Mike A

Jacksonlll · 06-13-2020, 09:47 AM

Time it again, and be sure.
If it was running before you put the new carb on, there was no need to retime it.

wmws · 06-13-2020, 09:51 AM

I would start by taking the air filter off for the time being. See if it will start. If still back firing retime the engine. There are a million posts here on how to do that. Once you are certain it is timed correctly try starting again. If still backfiring put the old carb back on and see if it will run. If it does run you know something is wrong with that new carb. Do one thing at a time so your know what caused a problem.

30 Closed Cab PU · 06-13-2020, 09:56 AM

How did it run before installing the new carb/air filter?

If at TDC cylinder 1 the rotor should look like the below, pointing to the distributor contact cylinder 1 spark plug

When Timing it did you place the spark advance lever fully up/retarded before performing the Nurex timing.?

Did you gap the points before timing it.?

Used the timing pin method?

When it backfired was it a loud shotgun sound, or more of a slight popping sound?

Purdy Swoft · 06-13-2020, 11:05 AM

The rotor should point exactly like the picture in post number 4 with no counter clockwise movement . The distributor shaft turns in the counter clockwise direction when the engine runs . The least amount of clockwise back lash retards the timing . Points gap effects timing . The spark happens when the points begin to open . More gap advances because it causes the points to open quicker . Where the rotor tip points is where the spark is sent . When the rotor tip points like the above picture , the points gap should be adjusted so that the points are just starting to open . where the rotor tip points and the points gap need to work together for correct timing . Factory specs are anywhere from eighteen to twenty two thousands .

Purdy Swoft · 06-13-2020, 11:16 AM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

If the new carburetor is adjusted TOO LEAN it can cause backfire . Try opening the GAV a bit and see if it helps . The air adjust screw helps control idle .

wmws · 06-13-2020, 11:35 AM

[QUOTE=Purdy Swoft;1898701]The rotor should point exactly like the picture in post number 4 with no counter clockwise movement . The distributor shaft turns in the clockwise direction when the engine runs . The least amount of counter clockwise back lash retards the timing .

Purdy. I think you meant to say the distributor shaft turns in a counter clockwise direction. At least when viewed from the top.

AAzz44 · 06-13-2020, 01:32 PM

How did it run before installing the new carb/air filter?
It ran, but it ran rich with a rough idle. Also tended to backfire when coasting. This is rthe reason I thought it needed to be timed.

If at TDC cylinder 1 the rotor should look like the below, pointing to the distributor contact cylinder 1 spark plug?
It was pretty close to looking like that picture. Although move it a 1/4 of an inch to the left and it would be closer to mine.

When Timing it did you place the spark advance lever fully up/retarded before performing the Nurex timing.?
Yes

Did you gap the points before timing it.?
No. Is this a must? The only tool I have is the Nu-Rex Wrench. What would I need to do that?

Used the timing pin method?

When it backfired was it a loud shotgun sound, or more of a slight popping sound?
Loud.

I did just realize watching the YouTube video on timing with the Nu-Rex wrench, I made the mistake and took the Distributor cover off. Therefore when I turned the wrench twice, and lined up the "triangle", I stopped it on the #4 Spark Plug and not the #4 contact on the cover. I am guessing this could be the problem?

Also, If I already turned it twice but trying to time it, how do I go about timing it again? Do I start from Step 1 and turn twice again?

Thanks,
Mike A

Purdy Swoft · 06-13-2020, 01:51 PM

[QUOTE=wmws;1898712]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

The rotor should point exactly like the picture in post number 4 with no counter clockwise movement . The distributor shaft turns in the clockwise direction when the engine runs . The least amount of counter clockwise back lash retards the timing .

Purdy. I think you meant to say the distributor shaft turns in a counter clockwise direction. At least when viewed from the top.

You are correct , I meant to say that the distributor shaft turns in a counter clockwise direction . Thanks for bringing this to my attention . I will go back and correct my mistake .

Bob C · 06-13-2020, 02:08 PM

Take a look at the timing instructions on Marco's site.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140902...hop/timing.htm

ronn · 06-13-2020, 03:42 PM

almost sounds like a stuck valve.........

30 Closed Cab PU · 06-13-2020, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aazz44

how did it run before installing the new carb/air filter?
it ran, but it ran rich with a rough idle. Also tended to backfire when coasting. This is rthe reason i thought it needed to be timed.

if at tdc cylinder 1 the rotor should look like the below, pointing to the distributor contact cylinder 1 spark plug?
it was pretty close to looking like that picture. Although move it a 1/4 of an inch to the left and it would be closer to mine.
something is wrong here, with the timing pin in the cam gear dimple the rotor should be as shown in the picture. Need to try this again and resolve this before going further. This is how cylinder 1 tdc is set/referenced so you can time dist cam/points properly.

when timing it did you place the spark advance lever fully up/retarded before performing the nurex timing.?
yes

did you gap the points before timing it.?
no. Is this a must?

for accurate timing set, yes. You get the points to open maximium, use a feeler gauge to measure the points gap an adjust for .016 - .020 inch gap.

used the timing pin method?

When it backfired was it a loud shotgun sound, or more of a slight popping sound?
loud.

i did just realize watching the youtube video on timing with the nu-rex wrench, i made the mistake and took the distributor cover off. Therefore when i turned the wrench twice, and lined up the "triangle", i stopped it on the #4 spark plug and not the #4 contact on the cover. I am guessing this could be the problem?

with tdc cylinder 1 located via the the timing pin/cam gear dimple, rotor in correct position. Remove the rotor, leave the dist body on (with 4 contacts), loosen the cam screw and follow instruction on the nurex. The tool uses contact 4 which is cylinder 4/spark plug 4. To review, cylinder 1 is closest to the radiator, cylinder 4 is closest to the fire wall.

also, if i already turned it twice but trying to time it, how do i go about timing it again? Do i start from step 1 and turn twice again?

easiest to explain is with cam screw slightly loose, turn 2 full turns again clockwise, use the nurex tool to keep cam from turning further while tightening the cam screw.

another tip is to remove all the spark plugs, when hand cranking you do not fight the compression of the cylinders.

wade

thanks,
mike a

111

AAzz44 · 06-13-2020, 07:56 PM

Ok. So tried placing my motor at TDC. View the photo attached on where it ended up.
So now my question is how do I get it to #4?

30 Closed Cab PU · 06-13-2020, 08:25 PM

If absolutely sure the timing Pin is in the dimple, sometimes to make it easier to find the dimple a mod is to file the end of the timing pin to more of a point instead of a rounded end.

The position of the rotor is set by 2 mechanical references.

Loosen the screw that hold the distributor in. Manually try turning the rotor, it should not turn. If it turns the distributor shaft is not mating properly in the block.

The distributor runs off the timing gear/shaft. If the distributor has been out, it may reassembled incorrectly. Pull the distributor. The end of the shaft that goes in the block is keyed. Looking at the end of the shaft. At 1st glance it looks like a half moon, if you look closely it is more 1/3 - 2/3 moon. When putting back in it fits/seats in only one way. While the distributor is loose, apply slight pressure on the rotor and turn it till it drops slightly. When putting in the distribitor the foot of it that sits on the Block, on the bottom of the foot there is a protrusion/dimple that locates the dist to the block.

The second is the Crank gear and timing gears have timing marks that are supposed to align. If these are worn/chipped/ bad the timing has slipped.

30 Closed Cab PU · 06-13-2020, 08:36 PM

Actually, the rotor is supposed to be pointing to Cylinder 1 at TDC. You are off by more that 1 cylinder.

The Nurex wrench uses Cylinder 4 as a reference for the cam/points timing, even though the rotor points to cylinder 1 using the timing pin- yes it is confusing.

1crosscut · 06-14-2020, 07:33 AM

From what I'm reading you used the NuRex without the distributor body in place and put the pointer on the NuRex wrench against the #4 spark plug.
If so you will need to re-set the timing again WITH the distributor body in place and put the pointer on the NuRex wrench against the post on the distributor body that the wire for #4 spark plug attaches to.
Instead of using the timing pin to find the dimple I always use a short phillips screw driver to find the dimple.

wmws · 06-14-2020, 09:23 AM

At this point I think you are confused and have the timing way off. I would suggest that you contact a Model A club in Houston and get some help. Don't be bashful about asking for help. That is part of the fun of these old cars, helping each other out. We were all new to Model A's at one point so we understand your dilemma.

chap52 · 06-15-2020, 09:50 AM

I agree with it being a timing issue. Lot's of posts on proper timing procedure. But, if it ran with the old carb and would not start with the new carb why did you decide to tinker with the timing. We have all chased the wrong rabbit at least once.
At the very least, take a deep breath and follow the Nu-rex instructions to get it timed with the distributor body on. This should get you close enough for it to start/run.
Now go back to the issue that first caused the no-start issue. Remove carb air filter, try to start... Replace new carb with old one. If it starts you have found the culprit.
These "A's" did not originally come wit air filters and the small added restriction to air flow can be corrected with carb adjustments. If this card was advertised as balanced and ready to run I would contact the folks you got it from. But first make sure you have the timing set right.
Don't get frustrated, take a deep breath, and as always, "enjoy the adventure"... Chap

katy · 06-15-2020, 10:10 AM

Throw that Nurex wrench away and set the timing the Ford way, as described in the link in post #10.

ryanheacox · 06-16-2020, 12:49 PM

Yup, take a breather.

I think the simplest thing to do would be, once you have the engine at TDC, take the rotor off, loosen the cam screw just enough to turn the cam, put the rotor back, make it match the picture in post #4, take the rotor off, tighten the cam screw. Should be timed close enough to run at that point.

06-13-2020, 09:47 AM	#2
Jacksonlll Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Michigan-- Member of Oakleaf of MARC Posts: 1,686	Re: No Start - Loud Pops Time it again, and be sure. If it was running before you put the new carb on, there was no need to retime it.

06-13-2020, 09:51 AM	#3
wmws BANNED Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Coatesville, Pa Posts: 719	Re: No Start - Loud Pops I would start by taking the air filter off for the time being. See if it will start. If still back firing retime the engine. There are a million posts here on how to do that. Once you are certain it is timed correctly try starting again. If still backfiring put the old carb back on and see if it will run. If it does run you know something is wrong with that new carb. Do one thing at a time so your know what caused a problem.

06-13-2020, 11:05 AM	#5
Purdy Swoft Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alabama Posts: 8,099	Re: No Start - Loud Pops The rotor should point exactly like the picture in post number 4 with no counter clockwise movement . The distributor shaft turns in the counter clockwise direction when the engine runs . The least amount of clockwise back lash retards the timing . Points gap effects timing . The spark happens when the points begin to open . More gap advances because it causes the points to open quicker . Where the rotor tip points is where the spark is sent . When the rotor tip points like the above picture , the points gap should be adjusted so that the points are just starting to open . where the rotor tip points and the points gap need to work together for correct timing . Factory specs are anywhere from eighteen to twenty two thousands . Last edited by Purdy Swoft; 06-13-2020 at 01:58 PM.

06-13-2020, 11:16 AM	#6
Purdy Swoft Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alabama Posts: 8,099	Re: No Start - Loud Pops Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) If the new carburetor is adjusted TOO LEAN it can cause backfire . Try opening the GAV a bit and see if it helps . The air adjust screw helps control idle .

06-13-2020, 11:35 AM	#7
wmws BANNED Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Coatesville, Pa Posts: 719	Re: No Start - Loud Pops [QUOTE=Purdy Swoft;1898701]The rotor should point exactly like the picture in post number 4 with no counter clockwise movement . The distributor shaft turns in the clockwise direction when the engine runs . The least amount of counter clockwise back lash retards the timing . Purdy. I think you meant to say the distributor shaft turns in a counter clockwise direction. At least when viewed from the top.

06-13-2020, 08:36 AM	#1
AAzz44 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 28	No Start - Loud Pops Recent Model A Owner and I am having some troubling issues. This past week I installed a new Zenith 1 – Air Balanced Carburetor, with the Hi Boy Air filter(from Macs). After installation I noticed the car would idle rough and backfire. Thinking it could be an issue with the distributor I decided to check the timing and completed that task using the NuRex tool and instructions. Now I cannot get my car to start at all. The very first try all I heard was an extremely loud pop, like a backfire. On the second attempt more loud popping sounds out of the tail pipe with some smoke. I also noticed when I hit the Starter and let go the starter will not shut off unless I step on it again. Its as if its sticking. At that point I gave up not knowing what to try next. Any ideas what may be going on here? Did I mess up on the timing? I am at a loss. Appreciate any help one could provide. Mike A

06-13-2020, 01:32 PM	#8
AAzz44 Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 28	Re: No Start - Loud Pops How did it run before installing the new carb/air filter? It ran, but it ran rich with a rough idle. Also tended to backfire when coasting. This is rthe reason I thought it needed to be timed. If at TDC cylinder 1 the rotor should look like the below, pointing to the distributor contact cylinder 1 spark plug? It was pretty close to looking like that picture. Although move it a 1/4 of an inch to the left and it would be closer to mine. When Timing it did you place the spark advance lever fully up/retarded before performing the Nurex timing.? Yes Did you gap the points before timing it.? No. Is this a must? The only tool I have is the Nu-Rex Wrench. What would I need to do that? Used the timing pin method? When it backfired was it a loud shotgun sound, or more of a slight popping sound? Loud. I did just realize watching the YouTube video on timing with the Nu-Rex wrench, I made the mistake and took the Distributor cover off. Therefore when I turned the wrench twice, and lined up the "triangle", I stopped it on the #4 Spark Plug and not the #4 contact on the cover. I am guessing this could be the problem? Also, If I already turned it twice but trying to time it, how do I go about timing it again? Do I start from Step 1 and turn twice again? Thanks, Mike A

06-13-2020, 02:08 PM	#10
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 8,743	Re: No Start - Loud Pops Take a look at the timing instructions on Marco's site. https://web.archive.org/web/20140902...hop/timing.htm

06-13-2020, 03:42 PM	#11
ronn Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: NNNNNNNNJJJJJJJJJJ Posts: 6,785	Re: No Start - Loud Pops almost sounds like a stuck valve.........

06-13-2020, 08:25 PM	#14
30 Closed Cab PU Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 2,332	Re: No Start - Loud Pops If absolutely sure the timing Pin is in the dimple, sometimes to make it easier to find the dimple a mod is to file the end of the timing pin to more of a point instead of a rounded end. The position of the rotor is set by 2 mechanical references. Loosen the screw that hold the distributor in. Manually try turning the rotor, it should not turn. If it turns the distributor shaft is not mating properly in the block. The distributor runs off the timing gear/shaft. If the distributor has been out, it may reassembled incorrectly. Pull the distributor. The end of the shaft that goes in the block is keyed. Looking at the end of the shaft. At 1st glance it looks like a half moon, if you look closely it is more 1/3 - 2/3 moon. When putting back in it fits/seats in only one way. While the distributor is loose, apply slight pressure on the rotor and turn it till it drops slightly. When putting in the distribitor the foot of it that sits on the Block, on the bottom of the foot there is a protrusion/dimple that locates the dist to the block. The second is the Crank gear and timing gears have timing marks that are supposed to align. If these are worn/chipped/ bad the timing has slipped.

06-13-2020, 08:36 PM	#15
30 Closed Cab PU Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 2,332	Re: No Start - Loud Pops Actually, the rotor is supposed to be pointing to Cylinder 1 at TDC. You are off by more that 1 cylinder. The Nurex wrench uses Cylinder 4 as a reference for the cam/points timing, even though the rotor points to cylinder 1 using the timing pin- yes it is confusing.

06-14-2020, 07:33 AM	#16
1crosscut Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Lincoln, Nebraska Posts: 1,907	Re: No Start - Loud Pops From what I'm reading you used the NuRex without the distributor body in place and put the pointer on the NuRex wrench against the #4 spark plug. If so you will need to re-set the timing again WITH the distributor body in place and put the pointer on the NuRex wrench against the post on the distributor body that the wire for #4 spark plug attaches to. Instead of using the timing pin to find the dimple I always use a short phillips screw driver to find the dimple. __________________ Dave / Lincoln Nebraska Last edited by 1crosscut; 06-14-2020 at 09:47 PM. Reason: clarification

06-14-2020, 09:23 AM	#17
wmws BANNED Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Coatesville, Pa Posts: 719	Re: No Start - Loud Pops At this point I think you are confused and have the timing way off. I would suggest that you contact a Model A club in Houston and get some help. Don't be bashful about asking for help. That is part of the fun of these old cars, helping each other out. We were all new to Model A's at one point so we understand your dilemma.

06-15-2020, 09:50 AM	#18
chap52 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Marana Arizona Posts: 1,776	Re: No Start - Loud Pops I agree with it being a timing issue. Lot's of posts on proper timing procedure. But, if it ran with the old carb and would not start with the new carb why did you decide to tinker with the timing. We have all chased the wrong rabbit at least once. At the very least, take a deep breath and follow the Nu-rex instructions to get it timed with the distributor body on. This should get you close enough for it to start/run. Now go back to the issue that first caused the no-start issue. Remove carb air filter, try to start... Replace new carb with old one. If it starts you have found the culprit. These "A's" did not originally come wit air filters and the small added restriction to air flow can be corrected with carb adjustments. If this card was advertised as balanced and ready to run I would contact the folks you got it from. But first make sure you have the timing set right. Don't get frustrated, take a deep breath, and as always, "enjoy the adventure"... Chap

06-15-2020, 10:10 AM	#19
katy Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Red Deer, Alberta Posts: 5,042	Re: No Start - Loud Pops Throw that Nurex wrench away and set the timing the Ford way, as described in the link in post #10. __________________ If you don't hear a rumor by 10 AM, start one!. Got my education out behind the barn!

06-16-2020, 12:49 PM	#20
ryanheacox Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Northwest CT Posts: 1,092	Re: No Start - Loud Pops Yup, take a breather. I think the simplest thing to do would be, once you have the engine at TDC, take the rotor off, loosen the cam screw just enough to turn the cam, put the rotor back, make it match the picture in post #4, take the rotor off, tighten the cam screw. Should be timed close enough to run at that point.