Rivets vs Bolts

[FirstA]

I am working hard on my 29 CC Pickup and the cab is the present project. I have taken two cabs apart, picked the best parts and off to the sandblast shop next week. I keep trying to convince myself that replacing some rivets with bolts on reassembly would be so much easier and I am not building a show / points pickup. Is this totally wrong to do for a fun driver vehicle? I haven't found anything on this by searching the Forum. Comments on this should be fun.

[Kevin in NJ]

Rivets are functional.

Rivets swell to fill holes and do not allow the part to slide with respect to each other. But they allow movement which in the body can translate to chipped paint and noises. The rivets also allow for misaligned holes.

Is it critical on the body? Maybe not....

But really, how hard is it to rivet once you get set up. With the few miles may put on their cars they are less likely to see a problem. You are more likely to get squeaks from the metal being allowed more movement then with rivets.

So it is not always about points correct.
It is about understanding the engineering that went into the design of the car.

[Rock Hornbuckle]

My area of Mechanical/Structural Engineering.....
If you choose to use rivets, I would suggest finding a dealer that sells Huck Rivets and fasteners. Kenworth truck uses them on their frames. Best rivets ever developed. Many different sizes and strengths. If you choose to use bolts, Google, "American Bolt Corporation Grade markings". I personally have used both rivets and Grade 8 bolts on frames, grade 8 bolts range from 120,000 (proof loads) to 150,000 psi tensile strengths. Bolts will require drilling to a unifrom hole size (to eliminate mis-alignment) then use a very snug size bolt with grade 8 lock washers, and torgue to grade 8 specs.

'29 coupe
'31 Fordor 2-window
'55 F-100

[MikeK]

If you must (and i'm not condoning it) for sheet metal (not frame) use either torx or hex standard button head or flange button head cap screws and either distorted thread flange nuts or flex-top expanding hex locknuts. Avoid nylon insert type locknuts, they slip with normal summer-winter temp. cycles. Both should be Mil spec or at least grade 5. Choose a plain, black oxide or yellow cad. finish, all take paint well. Avoid Stainless, it is much weaker and has paint bond issues.

If two thread pitches are available for the diameter you need, example: 10-24 & 10-32 ; 1/4-20 & 1/4-28, always go with the finer thread. Even though the nuts are self lock, use locktite.LINK 1 LINK 2

[Ed in Maine]

To me this is a very good question. I tremble every time I come across an application that requires using a rivet to complete the assembly. The reason is I do not have a torch and other forming tools or the expertise to make a factory looking joint. You will say, "get with the program and get the tools you need to do the job right." This restoration hobby is always a trade-off of doing it as original or as best you can because of the cost. Many of the tools you would like to have are more than what you would like to spend and then once you have them, they will sit in the storage cabinet for the rest of your life. Part of the hobby is developing the expertise and methods to make the best and safest possible restoration with the resources that you are willing to commit to the project.

Back to rivets. I recently used my mig welder on a rivet and I was quite pleased with the results. Have your hammer and forming tools at the ready. Heat the end of the rivet with the arc until red hot and then quickly belt the rivet with a two pound hammer. With practice you will end up with the nicest formed rivet. Obviously with large frame rivets, you may need additional heat from a torch. Enjoy the hobby, Ed

[FirstA]

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Thanks everyone. Ed, you made the bet point about the tools. I do not have tools for rivets, a torch, a mig welder or much help. Could buy what I need but then most of it would set around. Still considering options.
Richard

[Fred K-OR]

Richard, I may expose myself as a sloppy re-builder (which I am), but I have used bolts on both my redoing of my coupe and huckster. Both are drivers and not tour type rigs. But I used "proper" bolts when I replaced rivets. That is using the right type of bolt so that it does not "stick out" as a bolt. There are some rather flat head bolts that look like rivets and a number of other flat head type bolts that I found work well for me. So it depends on what you want to do. So go for it.

[darrylkmc]

Originally Posted by Ed in Maine

To me this is a very good question. I tremble every time I come across an application that requires using a rivet to complete the assembly. The reason is I do not have a torch and other forming tools or the expertise to make a factory looking joint. You will say, "get with the program and get the tools you need to do the job right." This restoration hobby is always a trade-off of doing it as original or as best you can because of the cost. Many of the tools you would like to have are more than what you would like to spend and then once you have them, they will sit in the storage cabinet for the rest of your life. Part of the hobby is developing the expertise and methods to make the best and safest possible restoration with the resources that you are willing to commit to the project.

Back to rivets. I recently used my mig welder on a rivet and I was quite pleased with the results. Have your hammer and forming tools at the ready. Heat the end of the rivet with the arc until red hot and then quickly belt the rivet with a two pound hammer. With practice you will end up with the nicest formed rivet. Obviously with large frame rivets, you may need additional heat from a torch. Enjoy the hobby, Ed

Ed in Maine

I am wondering if this is a typo and that you actually used a TIG (tungsten electrode) to transfer heat and not MIG (wire feed) to heat the rivet.

Darryl in Fairbanks

[Kevin in NJ]

For body rivets you can use a buck you make out of a chunk of scrap metal. You can get a used air chisel bit and make a waffle pattern with a dremel. Then you need a el cheapo air hammer.

You might also need a helper with the buck.

No heat, no welder and little cost. I did buy a waffle tool, but I did not realize how easy it would be to make.

[Roadster62]

Rivets now save you the regrets of not installing them at a later date. Google Big Flats Rivet Co. for all the info and hardware you'll need. Bob

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by FirstA

Thanks everyone. Ed, you made the bet point about the tools. I do not have tools for rivets, a torch, a mig welder or much help. Could buy what I need but then most of it would set around. Still considering options.
Richard

Richard, most can counter your comment by saying that usually when we purchase a tool, we find other uses for that tool that makes it a prudent purchase. A Rivet gun makes a nice air hammer (--but not the other way around) and there are always uses for that tool. A torch is always something that comes in handy. Being creative in finding friends who have the needed tools, --or finding someone who can benefit by you helping them and you use their services (labor) to help you. In all honesty, I have never heard anyone regret they repaired/restored something correctly, ...but sadly the same cannot be said if the circumstances are reversed. .
..
.

[FirstA]

Thanks everyone. The Ford Barn is great!

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

FirstA,
In a heartbeat I would use properly installed bolts/nuts/washers in hidden areas. They're not gonna' fall out & leave your truck in a heap on the road, even if you drive it another 84 years!
I think rivets are sometimes over rated. Ford trucks, a few years ago had FRAME rivet problems, like squawk/pop/groan!! I feel that rivets were used a lot because they were CHEAP/QUICK!!
Just look at the SMALL amount of rivet material spread around the hole as compared to a quality nut, washer, etc! I'd use BLUE Loctite also, it just makes me "FEEL GOOD"! (WHAT! me worry??NAW!) Bill W.

[CarlG]

The Model A hobby is all about providing excuses to buy more tools.

[dave in australia]

Once you buy some tools, then you can make your own tools for one off jobs with the bought tools. But then, I have been playing with cars for more than one restoration, so I see tools as an investment.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

FirstA,
In a heartbeat I would use properly installed bolts/nuts/washers in hidden areas. They're not gonna' fall out & leave your truck in a heap on the road, even if you drive it another 84 years!
I think rivets are sometimes over rated. Ford trucks, a few years ago had FRAME rivet problems, like squawk/pop/groan!! I feel that rivets were used a lot because they were CHEAP/QUICK!!
Just look at the SMALL amount of rivet material spread around the hole as compared to a quality nut, washer, etc! I'd use BLUE Loctite also, it just makes me "FEEL GOOD"! (WHAT! me worry??NAW!) Bill W.

Bill, what areas on a AA cab are "hidden"?

[wrndln]

I agree rivets should be used. It is not that hard to install them once you get the right tools. I think bolts look cheesy and don't work a well as rivets. If Ford used rivets, there was probably a good reason, as they could have used bolts like they did in many other places. I think some people are just scared or unsure of themselves in trying to rivet panels back together.
Rusty Nelson

[Logan]

Rivets should be used, but nuts and bolts will be fine. If I didn't have the tools necessary to do the job I would use nuts and bolts. And if there's a spot where a rivet is suppose to be that "shows" on the outside. You could use a carriage bolt, just grind off the little letter and numbers stamped into the top of it.

[JBill]

I riveted in my front cross member just using a Mapp gas torch from Ace Hardware and a bucking bar made from the heavy axle of a junked farm disc. It wasn't that hard. But, I've never done sheet metal rivets which I suspect might be a whole different thing.

[wrndln]

Most sheetmetal rivets are installed cold with a waffle tool. You need at least a 3X rivet gun and not a air hammer to do the best job.
Rusty Nelson