11-21-2020, 02:00 AM | #1 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Hanford California
Posts: 45
|
Big Boys Heads
How many of these heads were produced and did they come with studs? I'm interested in buying some and slapping them on the 8ba I have but would like to know more about them. I read a guy that was producing them passed away and his shop was in bakersfield California but other than that I have no idea about these heads. Whats the compression on these heads?
|
11-21-2020, 02:14 AM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 6,645
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
__________________
Alan |
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) |
|
11-21-2020, 02:54 AM | #3 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 8,137
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Quote:
SEE > https://www.stromberg-bulletin.com/rare-flathead/
__________________
The only thing nice about being imperfect is the joy it brings to others.... "Silver rings, your butt! Them's washers!" "We shot our way out of that town for a dollar's worth of steel holes!" - from 'The Wild Bunch' - 1969 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NReUd2_0u0 Last edited by petehoovie; 11-21-2020 at 03:19 AM. |
|
11-21-2020, 03:45 AM | #4 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Hanford California
Posts: 45
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Yeah good article thanks dudes. But does anyone know the compression of these heads and do they have ports for water temp?
|
11-21-2020, 05:54 AM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Mildura ,Australia
Posts: 163
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Swarm, if one of the two larger holes just below the center water outlet go through too water should do the job for a temp sender .
|
11-21-2020, 07:17 AM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Masterton, New Zealand
Posts: 3,834
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
__________________
Unfortunately, two half wits don't make a whole wit! |
11-21-2020, 07:51 AM | #7 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Hanford California
Posts: 45
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
I just hope to find some lol
|
11-21-2020, 02:57 PM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,179
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Look to Tony Baron. He makes similar heads. These seem a little ridiculous how thick they are. Clean out the block right and that extra coolant isn't needed.
|
11-21-2020, 04:33 PM | #9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Southern Maine
Posts: 1,498
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
These look a little like the late Tom Hutchinson's heads. His said "Ford Speed Parts" on them, not many were made but the tooling must have gone somewhere.
|
11-21-2020, 05:31 PM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Palmer, Alaska
Posts: 1,575
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
I personally do not know much about these heads, but my brother has a set, still new unused. he may have some info on them. he may see this thread and answer some questions. he goes by Flatrod here on the Barn, and Flatrod 17 on the Hamb
|
11-21-2020, 07:18 PM | #11 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Hanford California
Posts: 45
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Look to Tony Baron. He makes similar heads. These seem a little ridiculous how thick they are. Clean out the block right and that extra coolant isn't needed
I looked him up online and couldn't find anything, does he have a website? These look a little like the late Tom Hutchinson's heads. His said "Ford Speed Parts" on them, not many were made but the tooling must have gone somewhere Yeah maybe I should have some tooling made up and cast my own heads, I have an idea but I need to figure out how to start the process I personally do not know much about these heads, but my brother has a set, still new unused. he may have some info on them. he may see this thread and answer some questions. he goes by Flatrod here on the Barn, and Flatrod 17 on the Hamb Hopefully he sees this, I might just send him a message |
11-22-2020, 09:58 AM | #12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Anchorage Alaska
Posts: 291
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Yes I have a set of unused Big Boys, and my brother, Alaska Jim has Tony Baron heads. I bought mine from Paul years ago, I do remember talking to him when I got them, but don't remember much else.
I can compare the two if you like, I do know the Baron's are around 92cc, I don't think the Big Boys are that big chamber wise. Thinking about it I think I do have some paper work somewhere, I'll look for it and report back. Last edited by flatrod; 11-22-2020 at 10:03 AM. |
11-22-2020, 10:36 AM | #13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Anchorage Alaska
Posts: 291
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
posting pics
|
11-22-2020, 10:49 AM | #14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 5,064
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Personally, I do not like the shape of these and see no need for the "extra" amount of water. They are just big and bulky to me. I have a set of Tony Baron's heads - my version is designed for a big pop-up piston. They are quite large as well, but a lot nicer looking head than the 'Big Boys' (obviously, just my opinion!).
While I tend to run Edelbrock heads on most of my recent builds, I still love the design/shape of the 39-48 Navarro heads - I like the way they taper down at the bottoms - similar to original 39-48 Ford heads. All my Navarro heads were manufactured by "Barney" - I've heard a few comments about some of the ones from H&H having manufacturing inconsistencies - but I have no first hand knowledge of this. If I was going to be buying a new set, I'd check them out for any chamber size/machining issues - and if they were not to Barney's quality, I'd not be running them. Buy Hey - I'm a perfectionist! PS: Tom Hutchinson was a good ole' flathead friend to me when I was growing up around flatheads - spent quite a bit of time with him and my first SCoT blower setup came from him - NOS. I paid $400 for it . . . was a lot of money for an 18 year old kid! LOL |
11-22-2020, 10:51 AM | #15 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Hanford California
Posts: 45
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Awesome thanks you Flatrod
|
11-22-2020, 10:53 AM | #16 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Hanford California
Posts: 45
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Quote:
|
|
11-22-2020, 11:09 AM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Anchorage Alaska
Posts: 291
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
B&S, there is no comparison between the Big Boys and Baron heads!! We have both, Other then thickness two different worlds! As you know.
|
11-22-2020, 11:11 AM | #18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 5,064
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
It is possible to make your own heads (out of billet aluminum) - if you can produce 3D CAD models, can generate the toolpaths and have full CNC milling machine equipment.
You have to make them as a "clamshell" design (two halves) - with water jackets milled out of the interiors, then use an o-ring material to seal all the various stud and plug hole locations between the two "sides" as well as around the exterior. We designed all our own heads for the FlatCad engine (blown flathead Cadillac) - is a lot of time and money (and we had our own CNC equipment). If you have those capabilities, the $$$ it takes to buy 4 big chunks of 6061 aluminum and access to the equipment, let me know . . . might be able to collaborate on a "winter project"! LOL Here are some pics of the FlatCad heads: Heads-006.jpg Heads-007.jpg Heads-005.jpg |
11-22-2020, 11:19 AM | #19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Lancaster PA
Posts: 535
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
B&S - Wow, beautiful parts.
|
11-22-2020, 11:23 AM | #20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 5,064
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
|
11-22-2020, 11:32 AM | #21 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Hanford California
Posts: 45
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Wow that looks awesome, your in Ohio do you know Todd in Salem
|
11-22-2020, 11:32 AM | #22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Charlotte NC KiWi-L100 available here
Posts: 2,960
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Stunning Dale. Simply stunning & a credit to all involved.
|
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) |
|
11-22-2020, 12:02 PM | #23 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Columbus, IN
Posts: 1,407
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
|
11-22-2020, 12:11 PM | #24 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,179
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Agreed. Really impressive.
|
11-22-2020, 12:27 PM | #25 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 5,064
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Are you talking about the guy that is working on a flathead block design? If so, I've communicated with him, but never met him. I'd love to see an aluminum block flathead that supports 3.5" bores, with DART style sleeves and maybe available in both a 3 and 5 main version.
|
11-22-2020, 12:39 PM | #26 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Hanford California
Posts: 45
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
|
11-22-2020, 12:41 PM | #27 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 5,064
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
FlatCad Chambers: I designed the chambers and pistons to mimic the Harley KR flathead race engine. As a purpose built race flathead, it is the most advanced of any flathead design that I know - and made up to about 1.5 HP per cubic inch on gas.
My neighbor built these engines and he was one of my mentors (like a second Dad to me). Anyway, I have KR cylinders, heads and cam designs . . . so I wanted to try some of this on our Bonneville engine. The engine made 650 HP on Alky. Here is a photo of the chambers and piston: Chamber_HandPolishedAndORinged.jpg IMG_0218.1.1 copy.jpg The pistons were designed in CAD and then ordered with flat tops, I then hand formed the "ramp" on each one - it is aligned with the transfer area. This is necessary or the sharp edge of the pop-up piston will "burn" under high boost (we run 21 lbs). I had the piston tops ceramic coated - same with the chambers and valve tops. |
11-22-2020, 12:49 PM | #28 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys
Posts: 10,316
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Beautiful work Dale. I guess there are other flatheads beside Fords.
I have one question : "Ol' Ron" is a proponent of moving the spark plug into the transfer area, and for myself, I prefer Edmunds heads because the spark plug is moved into the transfer area enough, allowing the use of extended tip plugs. The "KR" chamber seems to refute this, with the spark plug directly over the exhaust(?) valve. Why would this be? |
11-22-2020, 01:34 PM | #29 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 5,064
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Bottom-Preview.jpg
The better news is that if a 'Winter Project' happened to find a way to get going, I already have rough SolidWorks models to work from (though they are quite preliminary). |
11-22-2020, 01:50 PM | #30 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 5,064
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Quote:
I have a couple guesses: 1) The plug is cooled by the intake charge. 2) Given the design of the chamber, with the angled "shelf" area, my guess is they wanted the charge to fire above the valve (the "back" of the chamber) and then progress toward the angled shelf and piston. One of the reasons I think the shelf is angled (at a very specific angle), is that it uncovers the cylinder on that side . . . so the combustion is driven toward that side, down the cylinder, etc.. My guess is that it causes a "swirl" into the cylinder, which may increase the efficiency of combustion. I only wish I had a dyno and unlimited time to try different chamber designs. Really, I would like a 1 cylinder Flathead Ford to screw with! LOL |
|
11-23-2020, 09:41 AM | #31 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Chester Vt
Posts: 8,860
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
I have a set of Grancor heads that had a very intersting chamber for a pop up piston. but the plug was in the stock location. I used these heads on the Bovell engine with a 3 3/4 stroke piston on a 4" crank. Unfortunately the dydo wouldn't pick up the load. I shipped the engine to Cal where the truck was, and flew out there. No Truck and a firm disagreement with the owner. Flew home with out it. Never saw it or the money again.
Bummer, At least I have a picture of the chamber, and it does resemble the Harley chambe. the location of the plug has a lot to do with the flame front. The flathead has a very long flame front and placing the plug at the far end of the chamber allows the pressure in the chamber to denate the fuel charge. using the .050 piston to head clearance removes the vast majority of the AF over to the transfer ares with a high degree of turbulence, which will urn more of the Af mixture. The result is more power from less fuem. At least that's the theory. Having the plug away from any valves allow the use of a power tip plug. Another plus. If this doesn't improve power, it will sure improve economy. Gramps |
11-23-2020, 12:12 PM | #32 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Coral Springs FL
Posts: 10,942
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
B&S: You and your team are amazing. Those heads are beautiful.
A work of engineering art. It must be like magic when the CNC works its magic on a big chunk of 6061. Do the heads have to be heat treated after machining? |
11-23-2020, 09:21 PM | #33 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 5,064
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Quote:
I think the most painful part of the head project is that we did not have a mill big enough to put the block in and use the DRO to figure out the bore, water jacket and stud locations. I did all the deck surface, pan/girdle measurements, etc - using a 24" dial caliper! Now THAT took a long time . . . |
|
11-23-2020, 09:35 PM | #34 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Fort Gratiot, Michigan
Posts: 2,296
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Quote:
|
|
11-24-2020, 12:17 AM | #35 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Palmer, Alaska
Posts: 1,575
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
deleted
Last edited by Alaska Jim; 11-24-2020 at 12:25 AM. |
11-24-2020, 01:01 AM | #36 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Hanford California
Posts: 45
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
|
11-24-2020, 10:17 AM | #37 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Chester Vt
Posts: 8,860
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
When desiging a racing style combustion chamber for a flathead. I think the wedge style is the best. having a flat surface at an angle and a piston with a corrising angle. This allow a very hi compression without restricting flow. Navorro made a set like this bacl in 2007??? JWL worked on this car someone else had this back in the 60's, but I cant remember who?? Altho the HD chamber is a good one, the ports are alsoverywell designed and aid in the power output. Today we have coputer programs that can help us eliminate questionable designs. Back in the 80;s I spent allot of time on a flow bench looking for the "oly Grail" of port and chamber design. In a flathead the port doesn't stop at the valve. The valve is actually in the intake port, which ends at the cylinder.
On another note, supercharging has shown us just how bad the ports really are. I build the block assy for Ron Horrell, a 294 ci engine for the street . however it had a magnason blower assy. On the dyno it produced 300ft/lbs of torque at 3000RPM and 235 HP at 4500 rpm ON 3/5 lbs of boost. The blower was liminated at 5lbs. The intake port was cleaned up with a 1.6 valve. I like experimenting with these engines and I respect others that do the same and every year we learn more. Take care, be safe, and think Flatheads and you'll go to Heaven Gramps |
11-25-2020, 11:58 AM | #38 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Liberty, KY
Posts: 901
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Dale that is impressive work!
|
11-30-2020, 05:39 AM | #39 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Lancaster PA
Posts: 535
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Just saw photos of these iron heads on FB, with chambers sort of like the KR chambers.
|
11-30-2020, 08:23 AM | #40 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Chester Vt
Posts: 8,860
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Those look like the Grancor heads I had, mine were for an8BA head and NO Name on them or fins.
|
11-30-2020, 10:28 AM | #41 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: new britain,ct 06052
Posts: 9,390
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Those look kile KOGEL hi-comp heads, available in two diff comp ratios, cast iron finned with 25% increase in water capacity. Not many made. I've a pair on my 40.
Paul in CT |
11-30-2020, 10:39 AM | #42 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,179
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Yes, these are rare. I seem to recall an issue with them cracking, so I'd get them checked out before throwing them on a motor. It would be cheap insurance.
|
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) |
|
11-30-2020, 12:33 PM | #43 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 5,064
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Those are kind of cool - similar in concept the the KR heads.
|
11-30-2020, 01:51 PM | #44 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 8,137
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Quote:
__________________
The only thing nice about being imperfect is the joy it brings to others.... "Silver rings, your butt! Them's washers!" "We shot our way out of that town for a dollar's worth of steel holes!" - from 'The Wild Bunch' - 1969 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NReUd2_0u0 |
|
11-30-2020, 03:54 PM | #45 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: MI
Posts: 211
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Wow !!!
|
11-30-2020, 04:22 PM | #46 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Chester Vt
Posts: 8,860
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
|
11-30-2020, 04:48 PM | #47 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys
Posts: 10,316
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Are those from an Oldsmobile?
|
11-30-2020, 07:36 PM | #48 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Lancaster PA
Posts: 535
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
I'm having a hard time seeing the shape of the chamber directly above the piston. It sort of looks domed, but not as domed as a stock chamber. Does anyone else see that, or does it look flat to you?
|
11-30-2020, 07:58 PM | #49 |
Member Emeritus
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 16,132
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Looks flat to me and I would assume mated to flat top pistons.
|
12-01-2020, 01:10 PM | #50 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Chester Vt
Posts: 8,860
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Grancor combustion chamber
|
12-01-2020, 01:12 PM | #51 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Chester Vt
Posts: 8,860
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Wish I knew how to make the picture bigger.
|
12-01-2020, 01:25 PM | #52 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys
Posts: 10,316
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
That's a "thumbnail". I "Clicked" on it and it came up to a decent size.
You done good. |
12-01-2020, 06:39 PM | #53 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Chester Vt
Posts: 8,860
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
mtt
|
12-01-2020, 09:19 PM | #54 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Lancaster PA
Posts: 535
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
|
12-01-2020, 11:13 PM | #55 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Chester Vt
Posts: 8,860
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
Thanks, those are the heads that were onmy Bville engine. I wonder where they are now??
|
12-02-2020, 06:00 AM | #56 |
Member Emeritus
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Fitzgerald, Georgia
Posts: 2,204
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
The Grancor are the better design for flow/power.
|
12-02-2020, 09:26 AM | #57 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Chester Vt
Posts: 8,860
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
As you can see the heads have a sligth popup for the 3 3/4 stroke pistons. Also the piston clearance. I made a doming tool to equal the clearance. simple HC.
|
12-03-2020, 02:47 PM | #58 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 5,064
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
I like those chambers . . . wished I owned a set of those heads! Anybody got a "spare set" that they're not going to use???
|
12-10-2020, 04:07 PM | #59 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Lafayette, La.
Posts: 100
|
Re: Big Boys Heads
aren't the Rocket heads kind of a mirror image? That is they have a deeper trough on the exhaust side.
|
|
|
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) |
|