R10 Overdrive Issue

[fredv]

I have rebuilt a R10 overdrive and having an issue regarding the engagement of the OD. When the OD is not engaged with the control handle pulled out, the transmission works fine.
When the control handle is pulled in and when the car reach the speed the OD is supposed to engage, there is a noise which seems to be pinions clash in the OD unit.
The whole transmission have been rebuilt with NOS parts and all electral componants are new, except the solenoid (good used). The wiring is also new and follows the original electric control system.
The relay, kickdown switch, governor and solenoid are working when tested.
All the mechanical and electrical tests described in the shop manual have been successfully performed (OD lever position check, pawl engagement check, governor circuit check, solenoid circuit check, interrupter circuit check).
Note that the transmission has been not tested on the road, but with the car raised on stands.
One more thing, the oil capacity of the transmission is supposed to be 4 pints, but it seems that when I filled it, only 3 pints were sufficient (I filled from the top OD plug until the oil reach the top plug of the transmission case).
I hope there will be some OD experts here to help me to solve this problem.
Thank you for your help

[Johnnydidd]

try using a toggle switch on the selnoid only run it directly from the battery, if it works start hooking one item at a time.

[fredv]

Solenoid is energized and engages the pawl when the white governor wire is grounded with a jumper as described in the pawl engagement check procedure in the shop manual.

[rotorwrench]

R10 discription covers a lot of transmissions. Is this a Ford, Mercury, Lincoln, or some other type and what year is it? Did you overhaul it yourself (familiar to all internal parts)?

The reason I ask, is that there are some electrical differences that can have an effect and there are case differences between models.

If your solenoid is pushing the pawl up and the balk ring is stopping and there are noises, It would be time to take a good look at the planetary and sun gear for problems.

My old Mercury transmissions have to have the transmission and overdrive unit filled seperately. One won't carry through to the other on the ones I'm more familiar with.

[scrapiron]

You may need the rolling resistance of a road test to shift properly.

[charles in east texas]

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Scrapiron may be correct! Take it for a road check an see if that makes any difference.
It did for me one time. Charles

[Kahuna]

You do not need any load for that O/D to operate. If there are gear type bad noises, there is an internal problem.
All B/W Overdrives are similar, if not identical, in operation (other than parts differences between R-10 and R-11)

[packyusmc]

The passage that allows oil to reach the OD part of the trans maybe blocked causing the noise you hear. My T-85/R11 has a fill plug to add oil to the OD. Try that.

[fredv]

Thanks all for your answers.
It's a 55 Ford R10F transmission (T-bird) identical to the previous R10 OD transmissions and I overhaul it myself.
Kahuna is right, all Bord Warner OD are similar in operation.
I am familiar with Ford 3 speed transmissions but it is my first overdrive and I found that the overhaul of the transmission was quite easy.

The OD unit and transmission are connected for lubrication as I filled the OD unit plug and oil come out from the transmission filling plug.

The only test I did not perfomed yet is to check the ignition grounding contacts inside the solenoid.
To do so, the shop manual says that:
1 - the solenoid shall be removed from the transmission and attached to the adapter so that the solenoid stem can extend fully when the solenoid is energized.
2 - Connect the 2 wires and ground the governor wire to a jumper.
3 - with the engine running at fast idle, press the kickdown switch.
The engine shall stop.

I guess that this test shall be performed with no oil in the transmission as the solenoid is removed from the transmission and only attached to the adapter (in order to see if the solenoid stem extend fully).
Will it be possible to do this test with no harm to the transmission ?

This might be my problem, if the internal grounding contacts of the solenoid do not ground the ignition, the engine torque will not be interrupted and the planetary and sun gear might be unable to engage ?
Thanks again for ytour help.

[charles in east texas]

I would try the road test first. Chas

[JWL]

It sounds like the overdrive cannot engage because the throttle setting/load is not being sufficiently changed. The overdrive will not actually shift, at any speed, until the drive load is momentarily interrupted. This is done by accelerating to about 40 MPH and removing all throttle pressure for about 2 seconds and then resuming cruise or moderate acceleration patterns. This probably can be done more easily during actual road testing.

[fredv]

I will try road test.
I did the last check for ignition grounding contacts inside the solenoid (with oil in the transmission case only).
I remove the solenoid from the adapter, attached it to the frame, and ground the white wire from the governor.
With ignition key turned on, the solenoid stem pulled out as it should.
With the engine running, I press the kickdown switch and the engine didn't stop as it should.
Do you think this could be the problem ?
The shop manual says that if the engine doesn't stop, solenoid must be replaced
JWL, when you say drive load, do you mean engine torque ? I guess that the grounding contacts inside the solenoid are supposed to interrupt the ignition and engine torque to allow the OD to engage ??

[40cpe]

My take on the ground test is to ensure that the solenoid will ground the ignition so that the passing gear can kick in after the OD is already engaged. That set of ground points is closed and ready to ground the ignition when the kick down switch in pushed. The kick down switch opens the power to the solenoid and connects the ignition ground when pushed.

[rotorwrench]

The grounding action of the coil is momentary. It happens as the holding coil releases until it is fully released and opens the ground contacts.

The balk ring will not allow the overdrive pawl to engage unless the throttle is released which will then let the pawl go into the notch and lock the sun gear. The balk ring has to have some friction between it and the sun gear plate or it won't shift in. If the car is off the ground there could be a problem with shift in but it should still work just watching the speedo until the governor speed it reached. Bypassing the governor will allow it to shift in at any speed but may need a bit of rpm to work better. Using a direct solenoid switch would bypass all this stuff including the function relay.

If the function is normal on these parts and it still starts making noise, you have a problem in the planetary. There should be no noise from the planetary after shift into overdrive.

All the Borg Warner R10 electric overdrives function in the same manner but there are a lot of case differences. The first Lincoln ones were even torque tube drive units. Some had different reverse lock outs and some have lock out switches & some don't. By 1955 they had simplified the units a lot more. No lock out switch (rail switch) was used after mid 1951 on Mercury cars and maybe earlier on ford cars.

[fredv]

Thanks Rotorwrench, I agree that the OD shall engage even if the car is off the ground.
As I said, all tests described in the shop manual have been successfully performed, except ignition grounding contacts inside the solenoid.
The engine doesn't stop when I press the kickdown switch.
Do you think I shall purchase a new solenoid ?
There is no lock out switch on my OD.
FYI, balk ring is new as well as planetary, rollers and rollers cage and spring.

[JWL]

The ignition interrupt-ground switch is only used to return FROM overdrive engagement back to straight transmission drive. As mentioned previously, like going into "passing gear". The overdrive unit will not shift either up or down unless engine torque is temporarily removed from the driveline.

[scooder]

Try cleaning the contact points in the solenoid, sounds like no continuity through the ignition grounding contact points.
The overdrive has to see reverse torque to engage and disengage, as in the axle driving the trans, rather than the trans driving the axle. This is what happens when the ignition contact points are momentarily grounded on the road, in kickdown. And backing off the foot feed to change into overdrive. Not sure you can do this with out load (car driving on the road) the wheels up and just spinning, May not give adequate reverse torque.
Hope this helps,
Martin

[rotorwrench]

A person would be relying on the kinetic motion of the rear drive line instead of the entire weight of the car. This could have an effect on normal function but I can't answer that question. I just test drive them. If there is something wrong with the planetary, the damage is already done and it would be noisy. They have been known to lock up but you have to know whether it is functional or not in order to troubleshoot. It's not too bad a job to pull the overdrive and have a look in there if you have to. You just have to rubber band the sprag when it goes back on. I use the small rubber bands so they don't goo something up in there.

As scooder mentioned, just take to cap off the solenoid and check out the grounding points. There could be corrosion or something going on there. Most of the ones I've taken appart are in surprisingly good condition but it depends on where and how they have been stored.

[fredv]

Thanks, the solenoid contact points have already been cleaned and I will definitely go for a road test.
I am thinking to purchase a new solenoid as it seems that there is something wrong with it during the ignition grounding contacts check.
Below a few pictures when the OD was assembled













I will post pictures of the solenoid contact points later.
Thanks all for your help again.

[rotorwrench]

Everything looks pretty normal during assembly. The only thing not pictured is the planet carrier & shaft. That solenoid may have a weak input coil or a weak holding coil that won't keep engagement properly. The relay coil may also be weak or points dirty and not geting enough juice to the solenoid. Wiring condition is important too.

[fredv]

Thanks to confirm that everything looks normal during assembly, here are pictures of the planet carrier and output shaft assembled.





I'll take pictures of solenoid contacts.

[fredv]

Pictures of the solenoid contacts:







BTW, the original solenoid on the transmission when I bought it was a 12 volt (the car should have been converted to 12 volt) RBM 1AR11-62 (completely out of order) and I replace it with a good used (according to the seller) 12 volt RBM AR10B62A.
As it seems that I need to purchase a new solenoid, I am thinking to buy one 1AR11-62.
Any difference between the 2 references above ?

[Cecil/WV]

I'm not sure if I understood your test procedure correct or not, but you won't have a ground through the set of points that are used to momentarily kill the engine until the solenoid is energized. I have a solenoid that locks in the OD but won't kick down in the normal fashion because the spring on the top points is so weak that it never closes to make that contact.

[Cecil/WV]

The first thing i would do is turn on the ignition switch and ground the terminal marked as TH SW, normally the one on the top terminal on the relay. If I could hear the solenoid engage, then I would go for a test run and see what happens. If I heard the relay and not the solenoid, then I would look at the solenoid. If I heard nothing, I would jump the terminal on the other end of the relay to battery and see if I could hear the solenoid, thus confirming the relay is the culprit.

[fredv]

Thanks Cecil, I will try that this afternoon and let you know.

[scooder]

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Do you have continuity in the contact points that ground the ignition?
Martin.

[fredv]

Cecil, with ignition key turned on, I ground the TH SW terminal on the relay and both relay and solenoid clik.

I did ALL mechanical and electrical checks described in the Ford 58 shop manual (this is the one that I have but I suppose that it is acceptable for all cars with OD) and all tests were ok, except the interrupter circuit check.

The first part on the check was ok, I raised the car and ground the blue wire with orange band (the one connected to the kickdown switch). Then with the engine running at fast idle, I pushed the kickdown switch and the engine stops as it should.
This part of the test was successfull.

Then, to check the ignition grounding contacts inside the solenoid, I removed the solenoid and attached it to the frame in order to see if the solenoid stem can extend fully when the solenoid is energized.

The 2 wires to the solenoid were connected and I ground the governor wire.
With the engine running at fast idle, the solenoid stem extend fully, but when I pressed the kickdown switch, the engine doesn't stop as it should.
The shop manual says that if the engine doesn't stop, solenoid must be replaced.

So I am wondering that if the solenoid is faulty, this could cause the pinion noise (from planetary I guess) at the speed the OD is engaging.

[40cpe]

That grounding circuit ONLY interrupts the engine to DISENGAGE the OD. You have been advised to put the wheels on the ground and test drive the car. If it doesn't engage then, you can repair or replace the solenoid because you will eventually need to anyway. Then you will know if you need to go back into the OD section of the transmission.

I've not tried this, but if you have a helper to work the accelerator you can use a screwdriver or similar to manually push the OD pawl and see if it will engage then. This might give you some indication of the effectiveness of the solenoid to engage the pawl.

[Cecil/WV]

Originally Posted by fredv

Cecil, with ignition key turned on, I ground the TH SW terminal on the relay and both relay and solenoid clik.

I did ALL mechanical and electrical checks described in the Ford 58 shop manual (this is the one that I have but I suppose that it is acceptable for all cars with OD) and all tests were ok, except the interrupter circuit check.

The first part on the check was ok, I raised the car and ground the blue wire with orange band (the one connected to the kickdown switch). Then with the engine running at fast idle, I pushed the kickdown switch and the engine stops as it should.
This part of the test was successfull.

Then, to check the ignition grounding contacts inside the solenoid, I removed the solenoid and attached it to the frame in order to see if the solenoid stem can extend fully when the solenoid is energized.

The 2 wires to the solenoid were connected and I ground the governor wire.
With the engine running at fast idle, the solenoid stem extend fully, but when I pressed the kickdown switch, the engine doesn't stop as it should.
The shop manual says that if the engine doesn't stop, solenoid must be replaced.

So I am wondering that if the solenoid is faulty, this could cause the pinion noise (from planetary I guess) at the speed the OD is engaging.

I think it is time for a road trip, as others have suggested. When the OD engages on the road, if it won't kick down by depressing the pedal, assuming that the switch is adjusted correctly, you can kick it down be momentarily cutting the ign switch off and on as quick as possible while holding the gas pedal down enough to at least have a load on the transmission. If that is the only way to kick it down, then you need to look at the top points in the solenoid.

[fredv]

Thanks, I will go for a road test hoping that the OD will engage without clash...

[fredv]

One more question, what kind of oil is recommended for such Borg-Warner overdrive transmission? I use SAE 80-90 transmission oil for basic Ford 3 speed transmission, but I read in the Borg Warner instruction manual that engine oil SAE 40 or 50 can also be used ?

[CarlG]

Back when these were new, in my Dad's '56 Fairlane, we would commonly just turn the ignition switch (key) off and quickly back on again to disengage the OD. Served the same purpose as the kickdown switch without flooding the carb with the accelerator pump.

[rotorwrench]

The Lubricant that was recommended back in the day was GL-3 SAE 80 or 90 in hot weather. GL-3 lubes are way long ago superseded by GL-4. Sta-Lube has SAE 85/W90 that fits the bill. NAPA carries this product. It's also available in SAE 140 but that's a bit thick for an overdrive.

SAE 50 motor oil is the same viscosity as SAE 90 gear lube since there are not graded the same way but it has very little pressure additives but more than the GL-1 lubricants. I'd use GL-4 rather than GL-1 given the choice but GL-1 will work under mild use. Another choice is SAE 40 or SAE 50 motor oil. It is as close as you can get to the original lubricants used for the B&W ODs.

[fredv]

Thanks for the information Rotorwrench.

[fredv]

I have tested the car on the road and everything seems to be the same when I tested the transmission off the ground.
With the OD desengaged manually with the dash control pulled out, the transmission is working properly.
With the dash control pulled in and in second gear, I reached the speed the OD is supposed to engage (40-45 km/h), and again, I heard this pinion noise from the OD unit I suppose.
The OD does not engage and I can't hear the solenoid click (although I might be difficult to hear the solenoid click when the car is on the road).
The car seems to freewheel as I can't feel engine brake at that speed .
The governor seems to work as if it doesn't, the electrical circuit of the OD will not be energized.
The fuse on the relay doesn't blow.
Maybe the solenoid doesn't have enough power to engage the pawl into the blocker ring

[Mike51Merc]

Originally Posted by fredv

I have tested the car on the road and everything seems to be the same when I tested the transmission off the ground.
With the OD desengaged manually with the dash control pulled out, the transmission is working properly.
With the dash control pulled in and in second gear, I reached the speed the OD is supposed to engage (40-45 km/h), and again, I heard this pinion noise from the OD unit I suppose.
The OD does not engage and I can't hear the solenoid click (although I might be difficult to hear the solenoid click when the car is on the road).
The car seems to freewheel as I can't feel engine brake at that speed .
The governor seems to work as if it doesn't, the electrical circuit of the OD will not be energized.
The fuse on the relay doesn't blow.
Maybe the solenoid doesn't have enough power to engage the pawl into the blocker ring

Why don't you just bypass the relay and governor and "hot wire" the solenoid to test it?

[rotorwrench]

The solenoids have a heavy engagement coil and a holding coil that kicks in after the solenoid engages fully as long as the operating relay is giving juice. If the holding coil isn't functioning well, the unit may not hold the plunger out far enough to engage the pawl. The pawl pushes against the blocker ring until you let off the throttle. The rolling torque of the car allows the blocker to reverse just enough for the pawl to push on into the ring slot and lock the sun gear. It is normal to have freewheeling action when the overdrive is not locked out.

You may need to try another solenoid that is known to be in working condition.

[scooder]

Freewheeling is only normal below governor cut in speed with the cable in. Not speeds above cut in speed.
Just to clarify.
Martin.

[fredv]

Thanks both for your input, I purchased a new solenoid and will try with this one. Martin, yes, freewheeling is only below cut in speed.

[rotorwrench]

The freewheeling clutch allows the car to coast when you let off the throttle. This is the freewheeling that I'm refering to and it will coast easily whenever the overdrive is engaged and below the cut in speed. When locked out, the motor brakes the car whenever you let off the throttle just like a non overdrive transmission. In overdrive, the coasting is limited above 28MPH but it isn't full engine braking either. The OD ratio still pushes against the normal transmission gearing so it does have a limited braking effect.

If you park a car with one of these transmissions, it's a good idea to put it in reverse or lock the transmission out. My brother tried to use a maladjusted emergency brake to hold our 51 Merc on a hill once and the car got away, rolled down a hill, and crashed into a brand new 64 Mercury Monterey. The owner of the Monterey was not happy. The old 51 got a bent grill protector out of the deal and the 64 Monterey owner got a new car.

[Bill S]

When I was using a 6 volt system I had a problem with the solenoid pulling in. I ran an extra wire to it using the stock wire with the new wire. Use a 10 gauge. After that I did not have a problem.

[fredv]

I tried with the new solenoid (NOS) and nothing new.
With the car on the road and at the speed of approximately 30 mph, I can't hear the solenoid click, just pinion noise from the OD.
The transmission doesn't shift into overdrive.
I performed again the ignition grounding contact test and again, the engine doesn't stop when I pressed the kickdown switch.
As I never drove a car with such overdrive, can you hear the solenoid click when the OD is engaging when you drive the car ?
Maybe the problem is related to the wiring

[40cpe]

I haven't driven an electric OD car in quite a while. I only remember hearing the relay on the firewall click. Both the relay and the solenoid kick in at the same time, so you will probably only hear the louder of the two.

I had a switch on mine that would ground the governor terminal so I could engage/disengage the OD at will. If I was sitting still and grounded the governor terminal, I could hear the solenoid kick in.

I'm sorry you are having problems with the car because the OD really is nice when it is working correctly.

FWIW, Here is a link to the Early V8 site where someone is asking for troubleshooting advice. There is a picture of a tool to simulate the solenoid.
http://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/vie...=18&Topic=7817

[fredv]

Thanks 40cpe,
When I ground the TH switch terminal on the relay with a jumper, I can hear both relay and solenoid clicking, while when I drive the car, I cant' hear anything.
I tested the solenoid on the bench applying power on the blue wire and it works.
I will need to go to the wiring again and repeat all tests in the shop manual.
Thanks to confirm that it is nice to drive when it's working ....

[donald1950]

your govenor could be bad or the kick down swutch could be bad

[scooder]

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You can test the governor on the bench. I use a continuity tester and a drill motor.
Lightly clamp the governor in the vice, put the end of the governor drive ( below the gear) in the chuck and a continuity tester connected to the governor case and to the wire terminal. As you speed up the drill, the continuity tester will sound when you get it up to speed. Then go quiet as you slow down.
See what happens.
Martin.

[fredv]

Kickdown switch is new and I already tested the governor on the car, engine and transmission running on stands, with a lamp. Governor is working.

[donald1950]

if the govenor works (puts out a ground signal at 28mph), the relay works under control of the govenor and solonoid works under control of the relay and the OD unit works on the bench then when driving over 28 mph and you hear the relay and solonoid energize, just back of the gas and you will feel the unit drop into gear and feel a little compression braking untill you accelerate. if you dont hear the relay operate check all your wireing by tracing one wire at a time... that is exactly how mine works in my 53 car.... i have owned 7 cars with ODs and have found all kinds of crazy stuf wrong with the wireing. even has a weak relay that would not energize teh solonoid and a bad ignitions switch that would not pass enough current to operate teh solonoid... PM me with a phone # and i can talk with you if you wish. the transmission always worked after teh other problems were sorted out....

[rotorwrench]

The wiring for these old overdrives lives in a wet weather invironment. Most of the old cloth wired systems had plastic tubing to help protect the wires but it didn't last a long time under harsh conditions.

New wiring available should be carefully scutinized for quality and proper gauge of wire, proper terminal installation, and when problems arrize with it, it should be tested with an ohm meter for continuity. If you haven't already hot wired the solenoid to the battery as was previously suggested, then you should try that and see if it will kick in to OD. It's best to rig it with a switch so you can control it and shut it back off. Even new switches should be tested with an ohm meter when problems arrize. Just because they are new doesn't mean they are working properly. Test everything.

There are at least three different length operating plunger rods in the different solenoids. You have to make sure you have the correct length operating plunger rod. I think there are 1-inch, 1.25-inch, and an even longer one for the convertible cars. I think Ford used the 1-inch protrusion plunger rod. I have a tool for manual ingagement of the pawl that can be made from an old plunger rod. With a tool like this you can manually engage the pawl and feel for it dropping into the gear ring when the throttle is let off for shift while being operationally tested on jack stands. This would also make sure the mechanicals are working inside the transmission.

[fredv]

Thanks all for your input.
As I said, wiring is new as I fabricate it myself with the proper gauge according to the Ford wiring diagram.
I compared the lenght of the plunger on the 3 solenoid that I have and lenght is the same on the 3.
The car was originally not equiped with the OD, so I purchase all items.
The only thing that is not Ford original is the relay, it's a standard relay.
The weird thing is that each componant that I tested seems to work individually, but when I drove the car, nothing happened.
I follow all checks in the shop manual, and everything works, except when I test the solenoid grounding contacts.
The shop manual says that, with the solenoid attached to the adapter and the white wire from the governor grounded, engine shall stop when the kickdown switch is pushed.
When I push the kickdown switch, I can hear the solenoid and relay click, meaning that the solenoid is no more energized, but engine doesn't stop as it should.

When I drive the car and reach 28 mph, I left off my foot of the gas pedal and the OD does not engage.
If I keep my foot on the gas pedal above 28 mph, I can hear little pinion noise from the OD unit.

Donald, thanks for your proposal, but I am in France so it might be difficult to talk about that, and my technical English is not perfect...
I will go back to the wiring diagram and try to test all componants again.

Rotorwrench, could you indicate how to hot wire the solenoid and if there will be no harm to the solenoid, as I don't want to dammage it (these little things are not cheap!).
I can make such tool, as I have an old plunger...
Thanks again for your help.

[Mike51Merc]

fredv,

You say "standard relay". The OD relay needs to be a high current continuous duty relay that is triggered by ground.

[rotorwrench]

Those overdrive relays will pass more current than a lot of modern relays are capable of. Make sure your operating relay will pass enough current to properly operate the solenoid.

Any source of direct battery power to the solenoid operating terminal should make it energize (big click). The solenoid has a ground path through the transmission & engine. It should also have a good ground path back to the battery if its grounding strap attaches to the engine like many ford cars do.

[donald1950]

i think rotor wrench may have it. you need correct parts. and a ford relay may be dificult to find in france but thats what you should have....

[40cpe]

You can connect it directly to a good voltage source to eliminate the relay. Use heavy wire, preferably 10 ga but at least 12 ga. If you wire it through a quality toggle switch, use one rated for at least 30 amps.

Connect to a source that can supply adequate voltage and current such as at the battery or at the starter solenoid.

[fredv]

I know that an original relay will be better, but the relay that I have is energizing the solenoid during the tests. The click sounds the same when the solenoid is tested directly with the battery and threw the relay...
How can I check if my relay pass enough juice to the solenoid?
If I hot wire the solenoid for test, I connect the blue wire to the battery using a switch to activate it. What about the orange wire on the solenoid?

[Mike51Merc]

Originally Posted by fredv

I know that an original relay will be better, but the relay that I have is energizing the solenoid during the tests. The click sounds the same when the solenoid is tested directly with the battery and threw the relay...
How can I check if my relay pass enough juice to the solenoid?
If I hot wire the solenoid for test, I connect the blue wire to the battery using a switch to activate it. What about the orange wire on the solenoid?

The orange wire is the "engine killer" connection for the kickdown switch. You don't need to connect it to anything for this test.

To hot wire the solenoid, just get a wire with a set of alligator clips and connect it to the solenoid feed wire and the battery (or a nearby power source like the heavy voltage regulator wire).

If your relay is not rated for continuous use (like a headlight relay compared to a horn relay), the relay can overheat causing several problems.

Sorry but none of this really explains your grinding sound. From my limited experience, the OD either works or it doesn't work.

[fredv]

Thanks for the tip, I will try that also.
You're right, none of this explains the grinding sound, but I want to be sure that the electric controls are working before remove the transmission from the car and overhaul it again.
So today, I repeat all electrical checks, I removed the governor fom the transmission and test it on the bench, it's working.
I checked the kickdown switch, it's working.
I check the pawl engagement with the balk ring gear, with the solenoid cover removed, and the governor grounded, the solenoid is energized and stem move as it should (1/8 inch):



When I turned the drive shaft by hand, the solenoid stem move again (3/8 inch) and the pawl engage the balk ring gear as the drive shaft is locked in both directions:



I came to the conclusion that my relay is good (at least for test), that the governor is working, that the solenoid also works.

This is the relay that I am using:



This is the wiring diagram that I used to make my wiring system (except that the relay fuse is 15 amps as my car is 12 volt and I do not have rail switch on my OD).



I still don't understand why I can't hear the cliks from relay and solenoid when I drive the car on the road.
It seems that each electric system is working individually, but the whole system doesn't work...

[40cpe]

That relay looks much like a factory OD relay. I don't know how much noise is in the interior of your car while on the road but road noise could drown the clicks out. The relay is sure to be closing to put enough juice to the solenoid to make the grinding sound. If you suspect it is not closing, run your test meter leads to the relay and take it for a drive. Or install a pilot light. Or by-pass it with a toggle switch.

[fredv]

The relay only looks like factory relay but it is not.
One thing that I noticed during the checks is that when ignition is on, the black terminal on the relay have juice before and after the fuse (from the coil), and TH SW terminal on relay (red on my wiring) have juice too.
When I ground the TW SW terminal, both relay and solenoid are clicking.
Sure it not easy to hear clicks while the car is on the road.
Can you detail how to install pilot light?
You might have noticed that I am not an expert with electrics ...

[40cpe]

To wire a pilot light to monitor the presence of voltage you ground the negative side of the bulb and run the positive wire to the point you want to monitor. The wires can be reversed unless it is an LED bulb. You can run the hot wire from the bulb to the wire on the relay that feeds the solenoid. Or you can carry the pilot bulb hot wire all the way to the solenoid connection if you want to be sure voltage is getting all the way to the connection.

[40cpe]

I see you said you have the OD relay feeding from the coil terminal. You need to be certain you have adequate size wire from the ignition switch to the coil and there is not a resistor ahead of your feed to the coil and relay.

If you want to by-pass all the circuitry feeding the relay you can install a temporary heavy wire from the battery post to the relay. Temporarily by-passing the ignition shouldn't cause any problems because the relay only energizes when speed is reached to the road or the relay grounded.

[fredv]

Thanks for the explanation regarding pilot lamp, I was thinking about something more complicate.

Originally Posted by 40cpe

I see you said you have the OD relay feeding from the coil terminal. You need to be certain you have adequate size wire from the ignition switch to the coil and there is not a resistor ahead of your feed to the coil and relay.

Yes, relay is feeded from the battery terminal of the coil, as indicated in the wiring diagram.
I don't think there is a resistor ahead, but size of the wire between the ignition switch and coil might be an issue...
I use gauge 14 from coil to relay and I think wire from ignition switch to coil terminal should be gauge 18.

Originally Posted by 40cpe

If you want to by-pass all the circuitry feeding the relay you can install a temporary heavy wire from the battery post to the relay. Temporarily by-passing the ignition shouldn't cause any problems because the relay only energizes when speed is reached to the road or the relay grounded.

Ok, I agree that relay shall energized the system when governor contacts closed at 28 mph.
When I tested the relay with ignition switch on, I had juice on feed terminal (from coil), and on TH SW terminal too (is that normal?)

When I ground TH SW terminal on the relay, both relay and solenoid are clicking.
It's indicate that relay and solenoid are working?

[fredv]

I took the car on the road this morning, with the test lamp connected to the solenoid terminal of the relay.
With the dash OD control handle pushed in (automatic position), the light burns at 28 mph approx. and I can hear the click of the solenoid when I listen carefully.
Just after the lamp burns, the grinding noise starts.
When I slowed down the car, the light stops burn at 22 mph meaning that governor and relay are working) with a little noise.
I stopped the car, I pulled the OD control handle out (locking mechanicaly the OD), and the lamp starts burn again at 28 mph and stop burn at 22 mph.
There was no grinding noise, but still little noise at 22.
It should mean that the electric system still works when the OD control handle is pulled out, as there is no rail switch on my transmission to shut down the electrical system.
Is it normal that the solenoid is always energized above 28 mph even if the OD is manually disconnected?
Then, I disconnect the ignition terminal from coil on the relay and after that, no noise at all from the transmission.
Did I miss something in the wiring diagram, and how the rail switch is replaced to cut the juice from the system above 28 mph ???

[Cecil/WV]

When I was having intermittent trouble with my OD, i mounted a truck clearance light under the dash with an alligator clip that could be moved under the hood. I clipped it to the terminal going to the solenoid and when the OD wouldn't engage, I could tell if the power was going through the rely or no. No light, relay problem, Light on, solenoid problem.

[40cpe]

Fred, the governor switch terminal will have a voltage reading on it if not grounded by the governor because it is the opposite end of the coil that is energized at the wire from the coil. Once grounded, it creates the magnetic field that pulls the points closed to energize the solenoid.

You are correct that the electrical system of the OD works when the handle is pulled out. It is normal. I don't think you can install a rail switch if there is no provision for it on the housing, unless you find a housing with provisions for it. You can install a manual switch to interrupt the governor circuit if it bothers you.

[Mike51Merc]

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Later OD systems omitted the rail switch entirely. I guess they decided it just was unnecessary.

It sounds like your electrical system is fully functional, but (besides the grinding) you haven't told us if it is upshifting and downshifting.

I think you have a mechanical problem.

[rotorwrench]

The shift rail blocks the function of the overdrive operating pawl when you pull the cable control out. It is also blocked while in reverse since the lever inside the transmission also controls the shift rail. The rail switch was only there to open the circuit so there would be no electrical energy wasted during manual transmission operation. I think the rail switch may have also started having reliability troubles so they just deleted it on further production after 1951.

You may have a problem with the ring & gear plate assembly or its interface with the sun gear where for some reason it's not locking the sun gear up like it should when the pawl engages it.

[fredv]

Seing the wiring diagram without switch rail, it seems obvious that the solenoid is always energized above 28mph whenever the dash control handle is pushed or pulled, but I was thinking that I missed something.
Thanks for the clarification.
The transmission is working without grinding when the dash control handle is pulled AND the OD electrical system not energized (with the power source from coil disconnected on the relay).
There is a grinding with system energized at the speed the OD is supposed to engage, and little noise when the car speed falls below 22mph (with the dash control pulled or pushed), no noise at all when electrical system is disconnected.
The rail seems to be operative, as it disconnect manually the OD.
Regarding electric controls of the OD, the only thing that I found is that when the solenoid is attached to the adapter for grounding contacts check with the white wire from the governor grounded, engine shall stop when the kickdown switch is pressed but it didn't.
I checked with the used solenoid and the new, and engine didn't stop.

The pawl engage the blocker ring during the test.
Ring and gear plate assembly were changed during transmission overhaul.

[Mike51Merc]

Originally Posted by fredv

Seing the wiring diagram without switch rail, it seems obvious that the solenoid is always energized above 28mph whenever the dash control handle is pushed or pulled, but I was thinking that I missed something.
Thanks for the clarification.
The transmission is working without grinding when the dash control handle is pulled AND the OD electrical system not energized (with the power source from coil disconnected on the relay).
There is a grinding with system energized at the speed the OD is supposed to engage, and little noise when the car speed falls below 22mph (with the dash control pulled or pushed), no noise at all when electrical system is disconnected.
The rail seems to be operative, as it disconnect manually the OD.
Regarding electric controls of the OD, the only thing that I found is that when the solenoid is attached to the adapter for grounding contacts check with the white wire from the governor grounded, engine shall stop when the kickdown switch is pressed but it didn't.
I checked with the used solenoid and the new, and engine didn't stop.

The pawl engage the blocker ring during the test.
Ring and gear plate assembly were changed during transmission overhaul.

The kickdown "engine killer" only works when the solenoid is engaged. That's what the orange wire is for.

[rotorwrench]

The ignition coil is only grounded for a split second. The time it takes for the solenoid to disengage which happens very quickly. If it is not getting it's momentary ground, then there is an open circuit somewhere. There may not be a good ground path or the solenoid is not going to full extension far enough to close the point set. There may br something blocking the pawl from shifting all the way in.

If you try a manual engagement of the overdrive by pushing the pawl in by hand, that would be the last mechanical test you could do to check function. If it still won't go into overdrive, it will be time to either pull the overdrive tail housing or pull the transmission and open it up on the bench.

[fredv]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

the solenoid is not going to full extension far enough to close the point set. There may be something blocking the pawl from shifting all the way in.

I was thinking about something like that too. I will repeat the pawl engagement check again and measure exactly the lenght of the plunger.

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

If you try a manual engagement of the overdrive by pushing the pawl in by hand, that would be the last mechanical test you could do to check function. If it still won't go into overdrive, it will be time to either pull the overdrive tail housing or pull the transmission and open it up on the bench.

I will try to engage the OD by hand with a tool made from an old solenoid stem. I can't just pull the OD tail housing, I need to remove the whole transmission from the car....

[Bruce Compton, Canada]

I had a similar problem with my '54 Merc .The previous owner had connected the wire to the coil to the wrong side of the coil. Bruce

[Cecil/WV]

The OD pawl has a taper on the end that engages and I am wondering if it is in backwards,ie, needs to be flipped over?? Although, I'm not sure you could pull the cable out if it was Just thinking out loud. I do think that, unless its the wrong solenoid, that the problem is internal.

[fredv]

Solenoid is correct and electrical system is working.
It seems that the pawl engages the blocker ring when I'm turning the driveshaft by hand, but not when the engine is running.
I added a switch between the governor and the kickdown switch to cut the juice when the OD is manually disconected.

Here is what I found in the Borg Warner instruction manual:

Improper position of blocker ring:

1 - Occasionally, either in assembly at the factory or in service operation, the internal parts of the OD unit may have been rotated with the solenoid removed and the pawl withdrawn from its normal location. This may cause the blocker ring to rotate, so that its two lugs are not located with respect to the pawl. The solid portion of the blocker ring may be in alignement with the pawl, which will prevent full engagement of the pawl with the sun gear control plate.

2 - To test for this condition, remove solenoid cover, pull dash control knob out, roll the car 2 feet forward. Push dash control in, turn ignition switch on. Then, ground TH SW teminal of relay, and watch movement of center stem of solenoid. It should not move more than 1/8 in. when solenoid clicks.
Then, with the relay terminal still grounded, shift into low gear, and roll car forward by hand. Solenoid stem should then move an additional 3/8 in. as the pawl engages fully. These two tests indicate proper blocker action. Unless both tests are met, the blocker ring is probably not in the correct position.

3 - Rather than dissamble the entire OD unit, this condition may be corrected externally. With the transmission in neutral, and the dash control pulled out, move car forward one full turn of the propeller shaft. Then, loosen the two solenoid capscrews as far as possible, without removing and pull solenoid out as far as it will go, and hold it there while the propeller shaft is turned forward about 1/8 turn. Then push solenoid in and tighten capscrews.

I did the test 2 and it seems that the solenoid stem moves much more than 1/8 in. when energized, opening the 2 solenoid contacts.
Then, I shifted into 2nd gear and turn the propeller shaft by hand, and the solenoid stem moves again engaging the pawl as the propeller shaft was blocked in both directions.

The fact that the solenoid stem moves more than 1/8 when energized might be my problem.
Any ideas about that?

[40cpe]

The instructions read "should not move more than 1/8 in". Instruction #3 seems fairly simple. Why not try it?

[fredv]

I did it this afternoon with no result, the pawl and the solenoid stem doesn't move when I pulled out the solenoid.
I took the car for a drive, and no change.

[Gary Duff]

fredv

I have been following your problem here. From one of the photo's
I can see that the snap rings are missing that locate the shifting
sleeve on the sun gear. This would allow the sleeve to slide with
the shift fork and not bring the sun gear with it. Overdrive needs to
come apart. The grinding noise is the sun gear not traveling far
enough to engage.
Gary

[40cpe]

Originally Posted by Gary Duff

fredv


I can see that the snap rings are missing that locate the shifting
sleeve on the sun gear. This would allow the sleeve to slide with
the shift fork and not bring the sun gear with it.
Gary

I'm anxious to see how this plays out, and I know Fred is too. Fred has said that the transmission locks up/freewheels normally. That indicates that the sun gear is traveling on the shaft. Kinda looks like there is a lock ring on the side of the shift collar but it is hard to tell from the photo.

Fred will sort it out eventually. Most would have already given up.

[fredv]

Thanks for your support 40cpe. I will have to sort it out, these transmissions are almost unknown here in France.
Gary, the sun gear was not disassembled when I overhauled the transmission, so I would rather go for a problem related to the blocker ring...

[fredv]

I did all checks again and OD still doesn't engage.
I will drive the car without OD this week and remove the transmission from the car and overhaul the OD section again next week, unless someone find the solution. I do think the problem is related to the blocker ring...

[40cpe]

just curious, did you try to engage the pawl manually?

[Cecil/WV]

The last time i had mine apart, after reassembly, I energized the solenoid on the bench and made sure the OD worked okay. Just turn the input shaft and check the speed of the output shaft.

[fredv]

I didn't try to engage the pawl manually, as it seems to engage when I tested the solenoid.
I will definitely test the transmission on the bench with the solenoid energized to be sure that the OD is working properly, I hate doing 2 times the same job!
Could you detail how you check that? just turn the input shaft by hand I guess?

[fredv]

One more thing, I've tried to drive the car with the OD control knob pushed in, but with the electric control system disconnected. The result is that the car freewheels at all speeds with no engine brake at all. This is normal I guess?

[40cpe]

yes, normal.

[Cecil/WV]

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Originally Posted by fredv

I didn't try to engage the pawl manually, as it seems to engage when I tested the solenoid.
I will definitely test the transmission on the bench with the solenoid energized to be sure that the OD is working properly, I hate doing 2 times the same job!
Could you detail how you check that? just turn the input shaft by hand I guess?

Spin by hand and you can tell the difference by watching the shaft turn

[Cecil/WV]

Also, it wont free wheel if engaged.

[fredv]

Ok, thanks for your replies, will keep you posted...

[fredv]

I removed the transmission from the car today, opened the OD, and found that the blocker ring has rotated and the pawl withdrawn from its normal location during assembly with the solenoid removed so that its two lugs were not located with respect to the pawl.



This seems to be the issue... Luckily, there is no visible damage caused by this mistake. I will carefully install the blocker ring, pawl, control plate and solenoid together to avoid these parts to rotate again during assembly.
I would like to thank all of you for your support and will keep you informed when the transmission will be ready

[40cpe]

I knew you would find it. You are going to be Sooo glad you stuck with it the first time it drops into overdrive and quietens the engine.

[Ol' Ron]

I;ve been following this thread, because I had a similar problem with a rebuild unit in a 50 Merc. on a long trip the OD Broke (Planetary). I replaced the Trans OD assembly with a T-85 BG from a 55?? Merc. Not sure of the year. I've been told this trans was user into the mid 60's with a dual bolt pattern bolt mounting for early and ;ate bell housings. I say this only to let people know a much stronger Trans with OD is available for the 8BA

[scooder]

Glad you found it, and good perseverance.
I didn't think the pawl could move out (down) far enough to let the blocker ring turn as far as yours has. Surprised me.
Well done.
Martin.

[fredv]

Martin, this is exactly what I think, I don't know how the pawl could have moved down enough to allow the blocker ring to turn, but it does, as there is a slight spot on the exterior of the ring showing that the pawl has touched the ring in that position
The transmission has been assembled, any ideas how to test it to be sure that everything is in order before put it back on the car?

[fredv]

After assembly of the internal parts of the OD, and before put back the housing, I checked the engagement of the OD.
Transmission in 3rd and turning the input shaft by hand, with the pawl engaged, the control plate and blocker ring doesn't turn and sun gear stand still.
When I turn the input shaft of the trans, output shaft turns freely in counterclockwise direction (viewed from rear), but locks the transmission when turned clockwise, when the output shaft is fully pushed in the planet carrier.
When the output shaft is not fully pushed in the planet carrier (the planer carrier pinions are in line with the edge of the ring gear), it turns freely in both directions
Is it normal or I miss something again?

[Cecil/WV]

I put on an earlier post how to check it on the bench by using the electrical components with a battery hooked to the solenoid, after complete assembly.

[fredv]

I remember your post, and I checked the pawl engagement with the solenoid energized with a battery and it works, the pawl engage the blocker ring, but this time, the problem seems to be related to the rollers and ring gear.
I assembled the rollers using a rubber band, and I thought that the rubber band might be too thick and block the output shaft, so I use heavy grease to hold the rollers during assembly.
After that, this is the same, with the trans in 3rd, the pawl engaged, the output shaft turns counterclockwise, but locks the whole transmission when turned clockwise.

[40cpe]

Fred, The transmission is supposed to lock up like that. Some of the early cars had a hill holder switch under the clutch. When you came to a stop on a hill you would put the trans in low and push the clutch down all the way to engage the hill holder. The hill holder would engage the OD and keep the car from rolling back on a hill, When the clutch was released, the OD dropped out and the car would pull off. If you release the pawl, the output shaft will turn both ways.

[fredv]

Thanks 40cpe, but I am not sure if I described correctly the situation, it's not really easy to explain such technical potential issues, and more to explain it in English for me....
I was meaning that with the trans in 3rd (direct drive) or in 2nd, the pawl engaged and the rail in OD position, it is not possible to turn the input shaft of the transmission clockwise (viewed from the rear of the trans). The input shaft and output shaft are turning counterclockwise, but when turning clockwise, everything is locked.
When the pawl is released from the control plate and blocker ring, everything turns in both directions.
Sorry to ask for more explanation, but I don't understand how it can work when the car is in motion. Thanks all for your help again.

[40cpe]

When the car is in forward motion and in OD, the shaft turns counterclockwise, except in reverse when the OD is locked out. Google "Studebaker hill holder". You might have to sort through a few hits, but the lock up in OD is how the hill holder operated.

You are doing a good job with your English

[fredv]

Thanks for your support 40cpe, I try to explain the best I can, but sometimes it's no so easy to find words. I will try to figure it out tomorrow, it's time to sleep for me now...

[40cpe]

I gave you bad info to google the hill holder, All the references are to a hydraulic valve. I clearly remember Studebaker having a tab on the clutch pedal to activate the hill holder switch. My Dad only had Studebakers with overdrive.

On my '57 Ford with OD I installed a manual switch to engage/didengage the OD at will. Approaching a stop on a hill while the OD was engaged would prevent it from rolling backwards. I'm confident that yours is working correctly.

[rotorwrench]

The hill holder was related to the braking system to hold a pressure check valve by means of a clutch linkage.

The one way clutch in the overdrive allows for freewheeling at low speed but only in one direction of rotation. This allows the car to coast during low speed when the engine rpm is less than the output shaft speed so the overdrive sun gear can rotate freely after it disengages (the sun gear rotates the opposite direction of the output shaft so it has to disengage the rest of the transmission through the freewheeling clutch. In operation the sun gear is locked and the transmission turns the planet cage to effect the overdrive of the pinion driven ring gear.

These transmissions don't act the same way on the bench as they do in the vehicle with all the different rotational forces acting on them. With the overdrive disengaged, you should be able to turn the input shaft by hand and see the output shaft rotate. When you manually engage the overdrive pawl on the bench, you would have to simulate the rotational force of the car pushing back on the output shaft to even get it to fully engage (the sun gear has to rotate backwards to open the slot on the blocker ring). You would then have to rotate the input to overpower the torque of the output. It might take more rotational torque than you can apply by hand force alone.

If you have it assembled correctly, it should work just fine.

[fredv]

Thanks for the detailed explanation Rotorwrench.
Well, I finished the assembly of the trans this morning and put it back on the car this afternoon, took the car for a drive and .... it works just fine!

I drove the car in 2nd gear, the car freewheels, the test lamp burns at approximately 45km/h (my odometer is in Km/h), I left the foot off the gas pedal, and the trans shift into 2nd OD.
I try to keep the 2nd gear until 55-60 Km/h, then left the foot off, the trans shift into 2nd OD, then put the trans in 3rd and I think it should be 3rd OD.
I tried the kickdown, mash the pedal to the floor and the trans shift into direct drive, same thing when using secong gear.
Anyway, I drove the car for 20 Km only, but everything seems to work fine.
I used my good used solenoid, so now I have a NOS solenoid in stock!
It's great to feel the trans automatically shifting into OD!

Regarding lubricant, only GL5 80W90 was available at the shop in my place, I used this kind of trans oil in Ford trans without OD.
Rotorwrench advised me to use GL4 or motor oil SAE50, but what kind of motor oil, as most of motor oil seems to contain additives?

Anyway, I will drive the car for a longer ride tomorrow.
I would like to thank all of you for your replies, and especially 40cpe, Rotorwrench and Cecil for their kind support.

[40cpe]

congratulations! Now enjoy it.

[rotorwrench]

Straight grade SAE 40 or SAE 50 motor oil does have additives but mostly anti-foaming and corrosion protection. The modern motor oils don't have much of the zink phosphate stuff (ZDDP) and I don't think that would be a problem even at the levels they had before 1992. Any name brand you can find should be OK.

Have fun
Kerby, aka rotorwrench

[Planojc]

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So what was the final conclusion on how to avoid this type of problem on a rebuild? It looks like you should never rotate gears with the solenoid removed.

[Drbrown]

Re OD lubricant I may be confused and perhaps because the OD installation in my car is different from the unit being discussed in this thread.

I have an R10 Borg-Warner OD installed in drive tube about 8 inches forward of the differential. To fill the OD, an old-timer B-W mechanic told me to remove the solenoid and fill plug then fill the unit with 140W gear oil until it came out the fill plug hole (which I have been doing).

(In this arrangement, the bearing and seal in the front end of the B-W OD unit supplements/replaces the standard Ford bearing and seal normally found mid-way in the drive tube, and also provides a shaft bearing and seal adjacent to the front of the differential)

So interpreting this thread, I'm thinking that perhaps using a lower viscosity lubricant in an OD is okay when the OD is attached to the transmission (?)

PS: Type GL3/4 140W gear oil as avail from NAPA.

[fredv]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

Straight grade SAE 40 or SAE 50 motor oil does have additives but mostly anti-foaming and corrosion protection. The modern motor oils don't have much of the zink phosphate stuff (ZDDP) and I don't think that would be a problem even at the levels they had before 1992. Any name brand you can find should be OK.

Have fun
Kerby, aka rotorwrench

So what will be the better choice, transmission oil GL5 80w90, or motor oil SAE50?
Any inconvenience to swap from trans oil GL5 80w90 to motor oil SAE50?
I had fun this morning during 50Km, after adjustment of the kickdown switch, everything works fine, that's great!

[fredv]

Originally Posted by Planojc

So what was the final conclusion on how to avoid this type of problem on a rebuild? It looks like you should never rotate gears with the solenoid removed.

Well, I still don't know how the control plate and blocker ring could have rotate during assembly, as when the pawl and the plate are in place, there is not enought clearance between the pawl and the adapter to allow the pawl to withdraw from its normal position between the lugs of the blocker ring

[rotorwrench]

GL-5 hypoid gear lube has an extreme pressure additive that eats into the wear faces and deposits a conversion coat that adds extra pressure capability to those surfaces. These additives have sulphur, phosphorous, boron, and sometimes chlorine compounds that can get acidic under high temperatures. The problem is it has a tendency to rapidly deteriorate any yellow metals like brass, phosphor bronze, or other copper based alloys. It also affects the surfaces of the freewheeling unit rollers and drum that could cause slippage of the one way clutch. All of the instructions I have ever read about the Borg Warner overdrives mention not to use hypoid lubricants with extreme pressure additives.

Some of the newer additives have less acidity but it is hard to tell just what is in there by looking at the package. The makers of these products don't advertise what they put in there since it is proprietary to their brand.

[Cecil/WV]

Boy! It is good to hear that it is working. Now, enjoy driving it.

[scooder]

Nice car, simca vadette? Does it have the V8 60 init?
Martin.

[fredv]

Originally Posted by scooder

Nice car, simca vadette? Does it have the V8 60 init?
Martin.

Yes, Ford France Vedette Versailles and then Simca Vedette Versailles, as Simca purchased Ford France in November 1954. Only around 1,000 of these cars were produced under Ford brand, but originally, it's a French Ford.
Engine is based on the V8 60 flathead but none of the parts are common with the original American engine.
I have 2 of these cars, one 56 sedan and one 56 hardtop coupe (this is the one I have adapted the overdrive transmission).
I will open a thread on French Ford-Simca cars of these years if some of you are interested.

[fredv]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

GL-5 hypoid gear lube has an extreme pressure additive that eats into the wear faces and deposits a conversion coat that adds extra pressure capability to those surfaces. These additives have sulphur, phosphorous, boron, and sometimes chlorine compounds that can get acidic under high temperatures. The problem is it has a tendency to rapidly deteriorate any yellow metals like brass, phosphor bronze, or other copper based alloys. It also affects the surfaces of the freewheeling unit rollers and drum that could cause slippage of the one way clutch. All of the instructions I have ever read about the Borg Warner overdrives mention not to use hypoid lubricants with extreme pressure additives.

Some of the newer additives have less acidity but it is hard to tell just what is in there by looking at the package. The makers of these products don't advertise what they put in there since it is proprietary to their brand.

The Borg Warner manual says indeed that under non circumstances should hypoid transmission oil be used in the overdrive, but in Ford Manual, it says that transmission oil should be used
What type of lubricant are you using?
What do you think about motor oil?
As my OD is now working fine, I don't want to ruin it with improper oil.
Thanks very much.

[scooder]

Originally Posted by fredv

Yes, Ford France Vedette Versailles and then Simca Vedette Versailles, as Simca purchased Ford France in November 1954. Only around 1,000 of these cars were produced under Ford brand, but originally, it's a French Ford.
Engine is based on the V8 60 flathead but none of the parts are common with the original American engine.
I have 2 of these cars, one 56 sedan and one 56 hardtop coupe (this is the one I have adapted the overdrive transmission).
I will open a thread on French Ford Simca cars on these years of some of you are interested.

I'd be interested, I saw one in Malta when I was a boy, wanted one ever since. Later happened upon one in a scrap yard. To far gone, the little V8 was still bolted in but someone already had a deposit on it, so didn't get that.
I'm in England, so one-day I'd love to flick over the channel and find me one. Got to many cars at this time, so maybe later.
Only seen sedan ones, love to see and hear mote about you hardtop coupe please.
Martin.

[Planojc]

Somewhere I read that All Overdrives use 80-90w weight oil. Do NOT use synthetic oil.

[fredv]

Originally Posted by Planojc

Somewhere I read that All Overdrives use 80-90w weight oil. Do NOT use synthetic oil.

What do you mean "weight oil"?

[rotorwrench]

Originally Posted by fredv

The Borg Warner manual says indeed that under non circumstances should hypoid transmission oil be used in the overdrive, but in Ford Manual, it says that transmission oil should be used
What type of lubricant are you using?
What do you think about motor oil?
As my OD is now working fine, I don't want to ruin it with improper oil.
Thanks very much.

In the 1940s/50s GL-3 mild EP lubricant was available that had natural EP additive and may have been animal (fatty acid) or lead based. When GL-4 specification was released, it had a lesser content of the EP additive used in GL-5 and is considered safe for yellow metals but I don't know how safe for the freewheeling clutch. I wouldn't be afraid to use GL-4 type.

I use aircraft engine oil (Aeroshell 100W) since I work in the aviation trade. It is 100 grade, SAE 50 ashless dispersant oil. I have to give you warning about aircraft oils for this purpose. Some are available that have Tricresyl Phosphate or TCP and you DO NOT want this type. Shell markets this oil in the USA as AeroShell 100W plus (+) but I don't know how they market this oil in France. You can use straight mineral type oil that is used for engine break in or an ashless dispersant oil but don't use any with the Lycoming additive TCP in there since it will make the freewheeling clutch slip. Regular automotive SAE 40 or 50 motor oil is generally 80 grade but would work fine in an overdrive if you can find some.

"Weight" is a term used or abused for viscosity index here in the USA but is not an accurate description of an SAE grade.

[fredv]

This is well noted, thanks very much for this very useful information.

[fredv]

I found this GL4 80W90 transmission oil in another shop, I think it will fit:



I drove the car for 180 Km now with no issues, everything works fine, but I will drain the trans and fill it with this GL4.

[40cpe]

Originally Posted by fredv

I drove the car for 180 Km now with no issues, everything works fine, but I will drain the trans and fill it with this GL4.

How does the little V8 handle the overdrive? Can you tell any difference in the fuel mileage yet?

[fredv]

Originally Posted by 40cpe

How does the little V8 handle the overdrive? Can you tell any difference in the fuel mileage yet?

The little V8 handle the overdrive very well, 1st until 20km/h, 2nd until approximately 50km/h, shifting into 2nd overdrive and then 3rd overdrive.
2nd and 2nd OD are very useful for city driving and hilly roads. 3rd OD is perfect for cruising at 100-110 km/h. At this speed, the car is very silent.
I am more than happy with it.
No long trip yet, so it's difficult to say regarding fuel mileage economy, but it will certainly reduce fuel consumption.

[fredv]

Just to keep you posted, more than 1.000 miles with the overdrive and no issues, just a real pleasure to drive with it. Thanks to all of you again.

[scooder]

Good stuff, glad your enjoying it.
Martin.

[40cpe]

Thanks for the update Fred. I'm glad you stayed on course because the OD really adds life to the car and smiles to the drive.

[Cecil/WV]

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Wonderful!

[fredv]

Originally Posted by 40cpe

the OD really adds life to the car and smiles to the drive.

This is exactly what I feel when I drive the car !

[fredv]

Just to keep all of you posted, I have now 3.700 km on the odometer, and no issues with the overdrive, the small French flathead handle the OD very well, just a lot of fun to drive!
A picture of the car that I took yesterday:

[40cpe]

I see some Ford Victoria and Oldsmobile Rocket influence in the styling. Maybe some Nash in the grill area. Nice Car!!

and thanks for the update. I'm glad the little v8 and the OD are compatible.

[fredv]

Thanks too for your help 40cpe. Although it is a French Ford, style is 100% Dearborn design!