R10 Overdrive Issue

[fredv]

Thanks to confirm that everything looks normal during assembly, here are pictures of the planet carrier and output shaft assembled.





I'll take pictures of solenoid contacts.

[fredv]

Pictures of the solenoid contacts:







BTW, the original solenoid on the transmission when I bought it was a 12 volt (the car should have been converted to 12 volt) RBM 1AR11-62 (completely out of order) and I replace it with a good used (according to the seller) 12 volt RBM AR10B62A.
As it seems that I need to purchase a new solenoid, I am thinking to buy one 1AR11-62.
Any difference between the 2 references above ?

[Cecil/WV]

I'm not sure if I understood your test procedure correct or not, but you won't have a ground through the set of points that are used to momentarily kill the engine until the solenoid is energized. I have a solenoid that locks in the OD but won't kick down in the normal fashion because the spring on the top points is so weak that it never closes to make that contact.

[Cecil/WV]

The first thing i would do is turn on the ignition switch and ground the terminal marked as TH SW, normally the one on the top terminal on the relay. If I could hear the solenoid engage, then I would go for a test run and see what happens. If I heard the relay and not the solenoid, then I would look at the solenoid. If I heard nothing, I would jump the terminal on the other end of the relay to battery and see if I could hear the solenoid, thus confirming the relay is the culprit.

[fredv]

Thanks Cecil, I will try that this afternoon and let you know.

[scooder]

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Do you have continuity in the contact points that ground the ignition?
Martin.

[fredv]

Cecil, with ignition key turned on, I ground the TH SW terminal on the relay and both relay and solenoid clik.

I did ALL mechanical and electrical checks described in the Ford 58 shop manual (this is the one that I have but I suppose that it is acceptable for all cars with OD) and all tests were ok, except the interrupter circuit check.

The first part on the check was ok, I raised the car and ground the blue wire with orange band (the one connected to the kickdown switch). Then with the engine running at fast idle, I pushed the kickdown switch and the engine stops as it should.
This part of the test was successfull.

Then, to check the ignition grounding contacts inside the solenoid, I removed the solenoid and attached it to the frame in order to see if the solenoid stem can extend fully when the solenoid is energized.

The 2 wires to the solenoid were connected and I ground the governor wire.
With the engine running at fast idle, the solenoid stem extend fully, but when I pressed the kickdown switch, the engine doesn't stop as it should.
The shop manual says that if the engine doesn't stop, solenoid must be replaced.

So I am wondering that if the solenoid is faulty, this could cause the pinion noise (from planetary I guess) at the speed the OD is engaging.

[40cpe]

That grounding circuit ONLY interrupts the engine to DISENGAGE the OD. You have been advised to put the wheels on the ground and test drive the car. If it doesn't engage then, you can repair or replace the solenoid because you will eventually need to anyway. Then you will know if you need to go back into the OD section of the transmission.

I've not tried this, but if you have a helper to work the accelerator you can use a screwdriver or similar to manually push the OD pawl and see if it will engage then. This might give you some indication of the effectiveness of the solenoid to engage the pawl.

[Cecil/WV]

Originally Posted by fredv

Cecil, with ignition key turned on, I ground the TH SW terminal on the relay and both relay and solenoid clik.

I did ALL mechanical and electrical checks described in the Ford 58 shop manual (this is the one that I have but I suppose that it is acceptable for all cars with OD) and all tests were ok, except the interrupter circuit check.

The first part on the check was ok, I raised the car and ground the blue wire with orange band (the one connected to the kickdown switch). Then with the engine running at fast idle, I pushed the kickdown switch and the engine stops as it should.
This part of the test was successfull.

Then, to check the ignition grounding contacts inside the solenoid, I removed the solenoid and attached it to the frame in order to see if the solenoid stem can extend fully when the solenoid is energized.

The 2 wires to the solenoid were connected and I ground the governor wire.
With the engine running at fast idle, the solenoid stem extend fully, but when I pressed the kickdown switch, the engine doesn't stop as it should.
The shop manual says that if the engine doesn't stop, solenoid must be replaced.

So I am wondering that if the solenoid is faulty, this could cause the pinion noise (from planetary I guess) at the speed the OD is engaging.

I think it is time for a road trip, as others have suggested. When the OD engages on the road, if it won't kick down by depressing the pedal, assuming that the switch is adjusted correctly, you can kick it down be momentarily cutting the ign switch off and on as quick as possible while holding the gas pedal down enough to at least have a load on the transmission. If that is the only way to kick it down, then you need to look at the top points in the solenoid.

[fredv]

Thanks, I will go for a road test hoping that the OD will engage without clash...

[fredv]

One more question, what kind of oil is recommended for such Borg-Warner overdrive transmission? I use SAE 80-90 transmission oil for basic Ford 3 speed transmission, but I read in the Borg Warner instruction manual that engine oil SAE 40 or 50 can also be used ?

[CarlG]

Back when these were new, in my Dad's '56 Fairlane, we would commonly just turn the ignition switch (key) off and quickly back on again to disengage the OD. Served the same purpose as the kickdown switch without flooding the carb with the accelerator pump.

[rotorwrench]

The Lubricant that was recommended back in the day was GL-3 SAE 80 or 90 in hot weather. GL-3 lubes are way long ago superseded by GL-4. Sta-Lube has SAE 85/W90 that fits the bill. NAPA carries this product. It's also available in SAE 140 but that's a bit thick for an overdrive.

SAE 50 motor oil is the same viscosity as SAE 90 gear lube since there are not graded the same way but it has very little pressure additives but more than the GL-1 lubricants. I'd use GL-4 rather than GL-1 given the choice but GL-1 will work under mild use. Another choice is SAE 40 or SAE 50 motor oil. It is as close as you can get to the original lubricants used for the B&W ODs.

[fredv]

Thanks for the information Rotorwrench.

[fredv]

I have tested the car on the road and everything seems to be the same when I tested the transmission off the ground.
With the OD desengaged manually with the dash control pulled out, the transmission is working properly.
With the dash control pulled in and in second gear, I reached the speed the OD is supposed to engage (40-45 km/h), and again, I heard this pinion noise from the OD unit I suppose.
The OD does not engage and I can't hear the solenoid click (although I might be difficult to hear the solenoid click when the car is on the road).
The car seems to freewheel as I can't feel engine brake at that speed .
The governor seems to work as if it doesn't, the electrical circuit of the OD will not be energized.
The fuse on the relay doesn't blow.
Maybe the solenoid doesn't have enough power to engage the pawl into the blocker ring

[Mike51Merc]

Originally Posted by fredv

I have tested the car on the road and everything seems to be the same when I tested the transmission off the ground.
With the OD desengaged manually with the dash control pulled out, the transmission is working properly.
With the dash control pulled in and in second gear, I reached the speed the OD is supposed to engage (40-45 km/h), and again, I heard this pinion noise from the OD unit I suppose.
The OD does not engage and I can't hear the solenoid click (although I might be difficult to hear the solenoid click when the car is on the road).
The car seems to freewheel as I can't feel engine brake at that speed .
The governor seems to work as if it doesn't, the electrical circuit of the OD will not be energized.
The fuse on the relay doesn't blow.
Maybe the solenoid doesn't have enough power to engage the pawl into the blocker ring

Why don't you just bypass the relay and governor and "hot wire" the solenoid to test it?

[rotorwrench]

The solenoids have a heavy engagement coil and a holding coil that kicks in after the solenoid engages fully as long as the operating relay is giving juice. If the holding coil isn't functioning well, the unit may not hold the plunger out far enough to engage the pawl. The pawl pushes against the blocker ring until you let off the throttle. The rolling torque of the car allows the blocker to reverse just enough for the pawl to push on into the ring slot and lock the sun gear. It is normal to have freewheeling action when the overdrive is not locked out.

You may need to try another solenoid that is known to be in working condition.

[scooder]

Freewheeling is only normal below governor cut in speed with the cable in. Not speeds above cut in speed.
Just to clarify.
Martin.

[fredv]

Thanks both for your input, I purchased a new solenoid and will try with this one. Martin, yes, freewheeling is only below cut in speed.

[rotorwrench]

The freewheeling clutch allows the car to coast when you let off the throttle. This is the freewheeling that I'm refering to and it will coast easily whenever the overdrive is engaged and below the cut in speed. When locked out, the motor brakes the car whenever you let off the throttle just like a non overdrive transmission. In overdrive, the coasting is limited above 28MPH but it isn't full engine braking either. The OD ratio still pushes against the normal transmission gearing so it does have a limited braking effect.

If you park a car with one of these transmissions, it's a good idea to put it in reverse or lock the transmission out. My brother tried to use a maladjusted emergency brake to hold our 51 Merc on a hill once and the car got away, rolled down a hill, and crashed into a brand new 64 Mercury Monterey. The owner of the Monterey was not happy. The old 51 got a bent grill protector out of the deal and the 64 Monterey owner got a new car.