The Ford Barn

hastingsman · 07-12-2018, 05:07 PM

Got my '29 coupe in March and took my first rumble seat passengers for a spin last week. They reported a grinding noise (?) from the driver's side rear and the hub was much warmer than the other side. I had previously noticed that the passenger side rear wheel turned much harder than the others, so I pulled both rear hubs.

The passenger side brake adjuster just turns without moving the shoes at all, and the driver's side adjuster won't move at all. I shot PB Blaster on it today in hopes of loosening something up.

I don't know that a brake adjustment is even needed to fix the issues, but I would like to be able to adjust them regardless. I wanted to start by backing them off and driving the car with a rumble seat passenger, as I can't hear the noise from the cab.

What does the brake adjusting wedge turn to move the shoes? Am I looking at a big job to replace the wedge if need be? And, how do I determine if the wheel bearings are the culprit and need replacing?

Thanks so much for any suggestions you may have. This car is fascinating to me, but I am a Model A virgin when it comes to repairs.

1955cj5 · 07-12-2018, 06:22 PM

This is what your brake adjusting wedge looks like....it is really a cone that spreads the brake adjusting shafts as you screw the wedge in further. This pushes the shoe closer to the drum.

https://www.brattons.com/brake-adjusting-wedge.html

Brattons also has diagrams. This one is of the front brake assembly but you can see the wedge #14 and shaft #16. If you double click on the small views shown below the large one you can zoom on the parts.

https://www.brattons.com/assemblies/...-assembly.html

The rear brakes also have an e-brake band not shown in the above diagram.

You should consider getting a repair manual such as Les Andrew's Volume 1. All the vendors carry them.

https://www.brattons.com/model-a-mec...ook-vol-1.html

Can you post pictures?

hastingsman · 07-13-2018, 07:34 AM

Thanks much for the info. I ordered the suggested book last night. The brake set up looks a bit complicated with the emergency brake in the midst of it all, but we shall see.

I will try to figure out how to post pics, especially the drums. Might be able to detect brake drag from the photos, tho it looks pretty good to me. There was some brake dust present when I pulled the hub on the driver's side.

If these pics post, it's passenger side shots first, then driver's side.

1930artdeco · 07-13-2018, 10:06 AM

Morning Hastingman and welcome.

I am going to assume you are totally new to Model A's and maybe being a mechanic-not sure. That being said, since the car is new to you and it sounds like you have a brake issue, I would totally disassemble the rear brakes. This will allow you to start from ground zero and inspect every part. What kind of shoes/drums do you have? I have bonded on cast iron and they squeak (drives me nuts). But if you have woven on cast iron that stuff will wear out your drums fast.

The adjuster wedge should move the shoes out and if they don't the threads may be stripped which means a new backing plate. Not sure how to spin test the rear bearings.

Mike

100IH · 07-13-2018, 11:07 AM

I would hold off on tearing into the brakes until thorough visual. Metal to metal should be obvious if that is the issue, other dragging contact might be visible as well. Gather all the helpful hints that your car can give you first.

hastingsman · 07-13-2018, 12:35 PM

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Hey- I appreciate the suggestions and. yes. I am new to very old Fords and a hobby mechanic, certainly not God's gift to the world of auto repair. I will await the arrival of the repair manual I ordered and attack the problem then. It kills me to let it sit 'cause it's a blast to drive, but I want to avoid further damage.

Not certain of what type shoe/drum combo is on the car. I THINK I've figured out how to post pics (finally), will try again with this post. Again, if this works, the first pics are passenger side followed by driver's side.

hastingsman · 07-13-2018, 12:38 PM

'29 Model A coupe rear brakes and hubs

Will N · 07-13-2018, 01:02 PM

Looks like your drum is rubbing against the pins on the parking brake linkage. Most likely cause is that the taper on the axle and hub. After years of wear, the hub/drum can slide too far down the axle and get too close to he brake parts. Really quite common. The vendors sell a shim that fits around the axle taper to take up some of the wear, which will keep the drum far enough away from the brakes.

1955cj5 · 07-13-2018, 02:27 PM

Like Will N Said.....

But here is a link to the shims. I used them on my ccpu and they solved the rubbing problems..

https://www.brattons.com/axle-shims-2.html

Randy
.

1955cj5 · 07-13-2018, 02:37 PM

And while you are at it

These are often missing....

https://www.brattons.com/axle-hub-gaskets-2-pcs.html

They go on the axle after the hub is on but before the big washer and castellated nut....

.

1930artdeco · 07-13-2018, 03:47 PM

I would have your drums turned as well and they 'look' like they are cast iron.

Mike

hastingsman · 07-13-2018, 04:04 PM

Could it be as easy as shims and gaskets and turning drums? You boys have given me fresh hope for a fix that I can perform myself. Thanks so much for the input. I will be busy ordering parts and finding a shop to turn the drums.

Bob C · 07-13-2018, 05:23 PM

Those look like steel drums to me and if they are they are probably worn out.
Ford did not turn the steel drums.

Bob

Tom Wesenberg · 07-14-2018, 12:35 AM

Sand off the rust, but don't turn steel drums.
Clean dry taper, and you may have to add a shim or two.
Clean and regrease the wheel bearings.

hastingsman · 07-14-2018, 06:47 AM

Latest plan: sand drums, apply light coat of primer or paint to track future rubbing. Clean axles, apply ordered shims when they arrive. Repack wheel bearings. Pray to the Car Gods.
Check to see how the wheels are turning, drive car, pull hubs to check for anything rubbing on inside of drums.
Hope the PBBlaster loosens the brake adjuster. Tear down brake system when ordered manual arrives if necessary, replace parts as needed.
This should be fun!

chap52 · 07-14-2018, 07:27 AM

There are lot's of good videos posted on You Tube. Just type in Model A in the search box. This will keep you busy while you wait on your order. Always align the posts with the information in your new Les Andrews Manual.
Post ANY questions you may have on this Forum, someone knows how to deal with your issue and will help you out. May be a knowledgeable Barner or Model A group in your neighborhood.
Most importantly, "Enjoy The Adventure", Chap

100IH · 07-14-2018, 09:16 AM

How hard was it to get the hubs to "pop" off of the axle taper. How chewed is the axle and the I.D. of the hub. Keys will shear and axles will spin in the hub and cause this. Also wear at the carrier and the axle gear in the differential. Use the shims, one step at a time for now. How are the threads on the end of the axle? 90 ft/lbs on the nut when reinstalling. There are new hubs and drums available now but not axles.

hastingsman · 07-15-2018, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chap52

There are lot's of good videos posted on You Tube. Just type in Model A in the search box. This will keep you busy while you wait on your order. Always align the posts with the information in your new Les Andrews Manual.
Post ANY questions you may have on this Forum, someone knows how to deal with your issue and will help you out. May be a knowledgeable Barner or Model A group in your neighborhood.
Most importantly, "Enjoy The Adventure", Chap

That's good advice, and I like the invitation to ask questions. So- let me ask this: while I'm waiting for parts and a repair manual, I decided to attempt to raise the radiator for a better fit on the hood.

The bolts at the base of the radiator have springs on them-?-. I plan to replace the bolts with longer ones and install shims, but I'm curious as to why there are springs present.

Thanks again- Jon

1955cj5 · 07-15-2018, 10:43 AM

The springs are supposed to be there as you probably guessed.

https://www.brattons.com/radiator-mo...-bolt-set.html

The set above includes rubber pads that go between the radiator and the frame.

My truck has a later front cross member so the area where the radiator mounts is lower than a '29 ought to be.

I needed two rubber pads on each side to get the radiator to the proper height.

I suppose the springs are there to allow some movement/flex of the radiator..a hard mount might eventually fatigue the radiator lower tank and cause a leak.....

When you get the radiator out a picture of your front cross member should help identify it as a '29 or a later version........

07-12-2018, 06:22 PM	#2
1955cj5 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Boise, Idaho Posts: 1,578	Re: Newbie having brake (?) issues This is what your brake adjusting wedge looks like....it is really a cone that spreads the brake adjusting shafts as you screw the wedge in further. This pushes the shoe closer to the drum. https://www.brattons.com/brake-adjusting-wedge.html Brattons also has diagrams. This one is of the front brake assembly but you can see the wedge #14 and shaft #16. If you double click on the small views shown below the large one you can zoom on the parts. https://www.brattons.com/assemblies/...-assembly.html The rear brakes also have an e-brake band not shown in the above diagram. You should consider getting a repair manual such as Les Andrew's Volume 1. All the vendors carry them. https://www.brattons.com/model-a-mec...ook-vol-1.html Can you post pictures? __________________ Early '29 CCPU that had a 4-speed, but not any more.......in the family since '62

07-13-2018, 07:34 AM	#3
hastingsman Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: 35 miles south of Grand Rapids, Mi Posts: 16	Re: Newbie having brake (?) issues Thanks much for the info. I ordered the suggested book last night. The brake set up looks a bit complicated with the emergency brake in the midst of it all, but we shall see. I will try to figure out how to post pics, especially the drums. Might be able to detect brake drag from the photos, tho it looks pretty good to me. There was some brake dust present when I pulled the hub on the driver's side. If these pics post, it's passenger side shots first, then driver's side.

07-13-2018, 10:06 AM	#4
1930artdeco Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lynden, Wa Posts: 3,552	Re: Newbie having brake (?) issues Morning Hastingman and welcome. I am going to assume you are totally new to Model A's and maybe being a mechanic-not sure. That being said, since the car is new to you and it sounds like you have a brake issue, I would totally disassemble the rear brakes. This will allow you to start from ground zero and inspect every part. What kind of shoes/drums do you have? I have bonded on cast iron and they squeak (drives me nuts). But if you have woven on cast iron that stuff will wear out your drums fast. The adjuster wedge should move the shoes out and if they don't the threads may be stripped which means a new backing plate. Not sure how to spin test the rear bearings. Mike __________________ 1930 TownSedan (Briggs) 1957 Country Sedan

07-13-2018, 11:07 AM	#5
100IH Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: SW Idaho Posts: 970	Re: Newbie having brake (?) issues I would hold off on tearing into the brakes until thorough visual. Metal to metal should be obvious if that is the issue, other dragging contact might be visible as well. Gather all the helpful hints that your car can give you first. Last edited by 100IH; 07-14-2018 at 09:00 AM.

07-13-2018, 12:35 PM	#6
hastingsman Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: 35 miles south of Grand Rapids, Mi Posts: 16	Re: Newbie having brake (?) issues Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Hey- I appreciate the suggestions and. yes. I am new to very old Fords and a hobby mechanic, certainly not God's gift to the world of auto repair. I will await the arrival of the repair manual I ordered and attack the problem then. It kills me to let it sit 'cause it's a blast to drive, but I want to avoid further damage. Not certain of what type shoe/drum combo is on the car. I THINK I've figured out how to post pics (finally), will try again with this post. Again, if this works, the first pics are passenger side followed by driver's side.

07-12-2018, 05:07 PM	#1
hastingsman Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: 35 miles south of Grand Rapids, Mi Posts: 16	Newbie having brake (?) issues Got my '29 coupe in March and took my first rumble seat passengers for a spin last week. They reported a grinding noise (?) from the driver's side rear and the hub was much warmer than the other side. I had previously noticed that the passenger side rear wheel turned much harder than the others, so I pulled both rear hubs. The passenger side brake adjuster just turns without moving the shoes at all, and the driver's side adjuster won't move at all. I shot PB Blaster on it today in hopes of loosening something up. I don't know that a brake adjustment is even needed to fix the issues, but I would like to be able to adjust them regardless. I wanted to start by backing them off and driving the car with a rumble seat passenger, as I can't hear the noise from the cab. What does the brake adjusting wedge turn to move the shoes? Am I looking at a big job to replace the wedge if need be? And, how do I determine if the wheel bearings are the culprit and need replacing? Thanks so much for any suggestions you may have. This car is fascinating to me, but I am a Model A virgin when it comes to repairs.

07-13-2018, 01:02 PM	#8
Will N Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,100	Re: Newbie having brake (?) issues Looks like your drum is rubbing against the pins on the parking brake linkage. Most likely cause is that the taper on the axle and hub. After years of wear, the hub/drum can slide too far down the axle and get too close to he brake parts. Really quite common. The vendors sell a shim that fits around the axle taper to take up some of the wear, which will keep the drum far enough away from the brakes.

07-13-2018, 02:27 PM	#9
1955cj5 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Boise, Idaho Posts: 1,578	Re: Newbie having brake (?) issues Like Will N Said..... But here is a link to the shims. I used them on my ccpu and they solved the rubbing problems.. https://www.brattons.com/axle-shims-2.html Randy . __________________ Early '29 CCPU that had a 4-speed, but not any more.......in the family since '62

07-13-2018, 02:37 PM	#10
1955cj5 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Boise, Idaho Posts: 1,578	Re: Newbie having brake (?) issues And while you are at it These are often missing.... https://www.brattons.com/axle-hub-gaskets-2-pcs.html They go on the axle after the hub is on but before the big washer and castellated nut.... . __________________ Early '29 CCPU that had a 4-speed, but not any more.......in the family since '62

07-13-2018, 03:47 PM	#11
1930artdeco Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lynden, Wa Posts: 3,552	Re: Newbie having brake (?) issues I would have your drums turned as well and they 'look' like they are cast iron. Mike __________________ 1930 TownSedan (Briggs) 1957 Country Sedan

07-13-2018, 04:04 PM	#12
hastingsman Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: 35 miles south of Grand Rapids, Mi Posts: 16	Re: Newbie having brake (?) issues Could it be as easy as shims and gaskets and turning drums? You boys have given me fresh hope for a fix that I can perform myself. Thanks so much for the input. I will be busy ordering parts and finding a shop to turn the drums.

07-13-2018, 05:23 PM	#13
Bob C Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: So Cal Posts: 8,750	Re: Newbie having brake (?) issues Those look like steel drums to me and if they are they are probably worn out. Ford did not turn the steel drums. Bob

07-14-2018, 12:35 AM	#14
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Newbie having brake (?) issues Sand off the rust, but don't turn steel drums. Clean dry taper, and you may have to add a shim or two. Clean and regrease the wheel bearings.

07-14-2018, 06:47 AM	#15
hastingsman Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: 35 miles south of Grand Rapids, Mi Posts: 16	Re: Newbie having brake (?) issues Latest plan: sand drums, apply light coat of primer or paint to track future rubbing. Clean axles, apply ordered shims when they arrive. Repack wheel bearings. Pray to the Car Gods. Check to see how the wheels are turning, drive car, pull hubs to check for anything rubbing on inside of drums. Hope the PBBlaster loosens the brake adjuster. Tear down brake system when ordered manual arrives if necessary, replace parts as needed. This should be fun!

07-14-2018, 07:27 AM	#16
chap52 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Marana Arizona Posts: 1,776	Re: Newbie having brake (?) issues There are lot's of good videos posted on You Tube. Just type in Model A in the search box. This will keep you busy while you wait on your order. Always align the posts with the information in your new Les Andrews Manual. Post ANY questions you may have on this Forum, someone knows how to deal with your issue and will help you out. May be a knowledgeable Barner or Model A group in your neighborhood. Most importantly, "Enjoy The Adventure", Chap

07-14-2018, 09:16 AM	#17
100IH Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: SW Idaho Posts: 970	Re: Newbie having brake (?) issues How hard was it to get the hubs to "pop" off of the axle taper. How chewed is the axle and the I.D. of the hub. Keys will shear and axles will spin in the hub and cause this. Also wear at the carrier and the axle gear in the differential. Use the shims, one step at a time for now. How are the threads on the end of the axle? 90 ft/lbs on the nut when reinstalling. There are new hubs and drums available now but not axles.

07-15-2018, 10:43 AM	#19
1955cj5 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Boise, Idaho Posts: 1,578	Re: Newbie having brake (?) issues The springs are supposed to be there as you probably guessed. https://www.brattons.com/radiator-mo...-bolt-set.html The set above includes rubber pads that go between the radiator and the frame. My truck has a later front cross member so the area where the radiator mounts is lower than a '29 ought to be. I needed two rubber pads on each side to get the radiator to the proper height. I suppose the springs are there to allow some movement/flex of the radiator..a hard mount might eventually fatigue the radiator lower tank and cause a leak..... When you get the radiator out a picture of your front cross member should help identify it as a '29 or a later version........ __________________ Early '29 CCPU that had a 4-speed, but not any more.......in the family since '62 Last edited by 1955cj5; 07-15-2018 at 06:16 PM.