Stearing sector problems

[pinball73]

Ok guys & gals! some time I put a post on hear about too much slack or play in the center going down the road. I finally got time to take it apart & this is what I find! to start with it is a seven tooth sector in a 1929 two door sedan. I have replaced the cross shaft, the worm gear & the bushings top & bottom. it should be a good sector, right? after tearing it down I find I have slack between the worm gear & the cross shaft. it can not be adjuster out with the adjustment screw on the removable cover. hear is what is blowing my mind! what ever is left of it. after close inspection I find the worm gear teeth are bottoming out on the cross shaft gear. after some work with a caliper & mike I find that the teeth on the cross shaft are just about .2000 taller than they are on the old gear I replaced & not as wide at the base of the teeth. have I just bought one or two bad gears & installed them? they were new from Snyders when they were installed. this one has really got my goat! any body had a problem like this or is it just my good luck.

[MAG]

The 7 tooth design is not as adjustable as the 2 tooth. I have rebuilt some 7 tooth boxes and was never able to get the lash to zero at the center. That is not the case with the 2 tooth. Rebuilt several and have never had one I could not to get to zero last at Center. Admit some were more difficult to doubt always got them right.
Try to find a 2 tooth for 29 car. They are available. Some have splines for steering wheel and open segment.

[Mike Peters]

I rebuilt a 7 tooth sector recently with a new worm and sector shaft and had the same result. Steering lash isn't bad, but not zero either. So are the repro sectors and worms the problem?

[kenparker]

Look at the bottom end of the steering shaft - the long rod the steering wheel is attached to. The bottom end of the shaft is what rides in/on the lower bushing. If the shaft is worn then the bushing cannot keep the shaft - and its worm gear centered with the sector. The shaft will ride up and down and left and right which translates to free play as it moves to contact the sector. A few thousands here makes a BIG difference. I will measure an original unworn shaft later and repost the diameter the lowere end of the shaft should be. That is unless someone else posts it first. kenp

[pinball73]

Originally Posted by Mike Peters

I rebuilt a 7 tooth sector recently with a new worm and sector shaft and had the same result. Steering lash isn't bad, but not zero either. So are the repro sectors and worms the problem?

I am beginning to think that they are the problem! i think the worm gear teeth are little longer or the worm gear is a little larger diameter, causing it to bottom out on the cross shaft gear teeth & not allowing it to be adjusted as it should be.

[pinball73]

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ok let me run this by you! i have access to a good machine shop & i am wondering if i can have then to reduce the circumference of the worm gear so it will not bottom out on the cross shaft teeth! this would let me adjust it into a tighter mash & maybe reduce the center lash! what does ever one think about this?

[Arlyn Bieber]

Unless I am restoring for 500 points I would never attempt to restore a 7 tooth box. Been down that road!!!! Henry changed to a 2 tooth for a reason. I suggest you do the same. Forget trying to machine the pieces to make them fit, use your money to restore a 2 tooth box.

[kenparker]

update on measurment of 7 tooth steering shaft. .748 dia. A worn shaft (bearing surface) will let your worn bottom out on the sector. Check it out with calipers. kenp

[pinball73]

Originally Posted by Arlyn Bieber

Unless I am restoring for 500 points I would never attempt to restore a 7 tooth box. Been down that road!!!! Henry changed to a 2 tooth for a reason. I suggest you do the same. Forget trying to machine the pieces to make them fit, use your money to restore a 2 tooth box.

well I think ever one is right about the seven tooth sector! I did go to a machine shop & we removed probably 6000 of a inch off of the worm gear & buy the way the gear was out of round quite a bit! this stopped it from digging in on the bottom to the cross shaft & seems to make it turn a little easier, but I still have the free lash in the center, not as bad as it was but more than I like. I have just about come to the conclusion that the teeth on one or both gears are not machined quite wide enough to make them mash right! not for Shure if the original henry parts are this way or if t is just after market

[mfarley]

Originally Posted by kenparker

A worn shaft (bearing surface) will let your worm bottom out on the sector.

I HATE it when this happens...

[pinball73]

Originally Posted by mfarley

i hate it when this happens... :d

murphys law! I think he lives with me!

[daren007]

You will not get there with a seven tooth, Nature of the beast. With the two tooth you can virtually remove all play at center. You will start to have play as you go off center but at this point it is not a issue as the worm and sector is loaded from the wheels now into a turn. A win win deal.

[pinball73]

Originally Posted by daren007

You will not get there with a seven tooth, Nature of the beast. With the two tooth you can virtually remove all play at center. You will start to have play as you go off center but at this point it is not a issue as the worm and sector is loaded from the wheels now into a turn. A win win deal.

Well I don't know what to do? do I just put it back in the car & live with what I have got or do I try to run down a two tooth sector? I have a friend not too far from me that might have one! may just give him a call. if he does not have one I think I may just bite the bullet & put mine back in the car & live with it. will let every body know which way I went a little later.

[denniskliesen]

Either find a 2 tooth for a late 29 or buy a steering box from Randy Gross. Just curious btw, did you buy your worm gear with or without the gear installed on a new shaft?

[pinball73]

Originally Posted by denniskliesen

Either find a 2 tooth for a late 29 or buy a steering box from Randy Gross. Just curious btw, did you buy your worm gear with or without the gear installed on a new shaft?

I just bought the gears separate & installed it on the steering shaft my self , I installed all the bushings & bearings along with the new cross shaft. basically the only thing I did not replace was the steering shaft.

[pinball73]

I can live with what I have got! but I just don't like it. it is just not right.

[larrys40]

I agree with Arlyn that if you can find a 29 2 tooth column it is best. They are hard to find. I have redone a number of 7 tooth’s and had good results. I usually try and find NORS old stock replacement or NOS Ford sectors if possible. The quality of them are usually decent. wolhert brand etc.
Larry

[hazelhoff]

If the slack in the 7 tooth column is too much ... take a saw and cut the welding of the house. Then put the house into the wrench. Close it just enough to loose the slack. Then weld again.
Repop parts just don’t fit, so we have to be creative....

[Tom Wesenberg]

The original 7 tooth in my 28 Phaeton is in good shape, even though I haven't worked on it yet, and about 20 years ago I bought a 7 tooth with steering wheel that has no slop at all. It must have been removed from a very low mileage car early in it's life.


The bottom cover on the 7 tooth has brass shims that can be removed to reduce end play in the steering shaft which holds the steering wheel in place. I bought an NOS lower bushing and housing from Little Dearborn about 10 years ago for my 7 tooth, but don't know if I will need it yet.


Bert's has lots of good original parts. I stopped there the other day on my way home from Arizona, as I passed through Denver. I bought some hard to find original 28 parts from Steve at Bert's. 1-800-321-1931

[pinball73]

What should I expect to pay for a two tooth sector if I find one? this might simplify my decision on what to do

[denniskliesen]

I think it's sometimes a hit and miss on new parts for a 7 tooth. I replaced the steering shaft with the worm gear as one piece in my early 29 and was able to get the play out of it. The lower bearing housing new reproduction was machined way off, the flange was too thick. I decided to reuse my original with some help cleaning it up and it works fine. The repo housing could be used with the help of a good machinist by turning the face of the flange to remove the amount of the thrust end play and place the worm gear centered over the sector shaft.
Edit: I just thought of something else. Did you put the thrust washer in between the housing and the sector shaft? Another thing to keep in mind is the new thrust bearings on the sector shaft are the same bearing used on the front axle king pins. I've read where they are not the same thickness as the original thrust bearings and need to be shimmed to get close to original thickness. I remember having to shim them when I replaced my king pins.

[pinball73]

Originally Posted by denniskliesen

I think it's sometimes a hit and miss on new parts for a 7 tooth. I replaced the steering shaft with the worm gear as one piece in my early 29 and was able to get the play out of it. The lower bearing housing new reproduction was machined way off, the flange was too thick. I decided to reuse my original with some help cleaning it up and it works fine. The repo housing could be used with the help of a good machinist by turning the face of the flange to remove the amount of the thrust end play and place the worm gear centered over the sector shaft.
Edit: I just thought of something else. Did you put the thrust washer in between the housing and the sector shaft? Another thing to keep in mind is the new thrust bearings on the sector shaft are the same bearing used on the front axle king pins. I've read where they are not the same thickness as the original thrust bearings and need to be shimmed to get close to original thickness. I remember having to shim them when I replaced my king pins.

I replaced every thing other than the case & the bottom plate where the lower bushing is. the problem seems to be the width of the teeth on either the worm gear out the cross shaft or both. when you have them both out & in your hand you can see the slack between the two. I am not talking about a lot of slack, but 3 or 4000 of a inch. but when it is all to gather & your hand is on the searing wheel it adds up to way too much slack. it has to be in the new reproduction gears I think! at least this is all I can come up with.

[denniskliesen]

Oh now I think I understand what you are saying. The tooth bottoms before it makes contact with the other teeth. Like a fan belt that is too narrow for the pulley. Did you have to ream or hone your new bushings for the steering shaft?

[Bill G]

Pinball, it sounds like you are going down the proverbial rabbit hole.

[pinball73]

Originally Posted by Magicbox51

Pinball, it sounds like you are going down the proverbial rabbit hole.

Yes I think I am & the rabbit done gone. till I figure out just what I am going to do I think I will put it back on the car, just for now! may either try to find a set of original Henry gears or a two tooth sector which I am finding out are both hard to find.

[Tom Wesenberg]

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I'll bet Bert's has what you need. I stopped in on my way home from Arizona last Tuesday, and Steve has tons of original parts. 1-800-321-1931

[100IH]

Pinball73. Clarity is everything in a discussion like this. A good subject and good responses. You need to get a grip on how to express the measurements. On line 22 you say 4000 as a measurement. If the missing desimal is supposed to be before the 4, your getting near 1/2". I'm sure that's not what you mean. If the decimal was just after the 4, you would be indicating 4". even worse. It's all about the zeros and then the decinal. Four thousandths of an inch is written .004 More zeros after implies that the level of accuracy is Infinitely more exact like Extremely precise. 3 zeros says you are using some sort of electron microscope and reading something like a millionth inch. So here goes, 1 thousandth inch is .001, 10 thousandths inch is .010, A great thing to learn and unless folks haven' been a machinist, it's something foreign and new. Just an attempt to help the discussion along. Happy to help and good luck with the box.

[larrys40]

Originally Posted by pinball73

Yes I think I am & the rabbit done gone. till I figure out just what I am going to do I think I will put it back on the car, just for now! may either try to find a set of original Henry gears or a two tooth sector which I am finding out are both hard to find.

Looks like you are In Missouri, as am I. I dropped you a PM. Call me when you get a chance. I am also in the Model A News, restorer magazine.
Larry Shepard

[Mulletwagon]

Did my 31 Tudor come with a seven or two tooth ? I have about 30 degrees of play on the wheel. Is this too much or typical ? I can still steer between the goal posts but it takes some rocking.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Mulletwagon

Did my 31 Tudor come with a seven or two tooth ? I have about 30 degrees of play on the wheel. Is this too much or typical ? I can still steer between the goal posts but it takes some rocking.

Your 31 came new with a 2 tooth steering, and 30* is definitely too much play. I like about an inch or less at the steering wheel rim.