|
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
02-05-2019, 11:23 AM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Maine
Posts: 224
|
Preservation vs Restoration
I am interested in hearing thoughts on preservation vs restoration. Consider a rare model, Model A, in close to original unrestored condition. Some areas are, as would be expected, rough, ie. top and interior material; but it has all original parts and there is no rust. This particular car could very easily be brought back to original unrestored condition with a modest investment and searching for original materials. Conversely, it is such a solid car it could be restored to the highest level, no patch panels no fillers.
Even the rarer Model A's will come on the market occasionally, I have not seen one come on the market in this condition in the last few years since I have been search for this particular model. I know the trend in the market is for unrestored originals. I have seen many beautifully restored examples of this model come on the market, and some very rough unrestored examples missing most, if not all of the hard to find components. Ten or fifteen years ago, the prevailing thought would be to restore, even more so given the cars solid condition. But...they are only original once, just seems unfortunate to tamper with that. Any thoughts? |
02-05-2019, 11:33 AM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 6,340
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
It is only original once. Without seeing the car, my OP is, go thru it and make mechanically safe and enjoy. There are enough restored cars or cars that were started and never finished out there now. Depending on your age and income, to restore is going to take how long? A couple, 5, 10, 20, never?
__________________
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! |
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) |
|
02-05-2019, 12:00 PM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: NNNNNNNNJJJJJJJJJJ
Posts: 6,787
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
you can see the car listed on Mafca= A400
|
02-05-2019, 12:39 PM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 6,340
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
How about a link for us that do not go to that site.
__________________
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! |
02-05-2019, 01:20 PM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Kritter Krick, Flaw-duh
Posts: 1,158
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
I think this is the one ronn means - scroll down to the A400 near the bottom: https://www.mafca.com/cl/cl-v-sale.html |
02-05-2019, 01:48 PM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Annandale, VA
Posts: 150
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
|
02-05-2019, 01:58 PM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Kritter Krick, Flaw-duh
Posts: 1,158
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
From a dollars and cents viewpoint, the car you describe likely would bring more money restored, although it might not make a profit or even recover investment. I understand the "it's only original once" argument. But the second it left the assembly line, it was no longer original. The first time someone slid into the seat, started the engine, shifted gears, applied the brakes, etc, it started incurring wear. It may have had all its original parts but it was no longer factory original. Yes, that’s an extreme definition but it’s nonetheless true.
Seems to me the question is whether to keep the car as is, with the 90 or so years of history it has accumulated, or restore it as closely as possible to how it left the factory (given that some original materials may be “unobtainium”). Both have merit. In the case of the car you describe, there are restored examples. So my preference is to do only enough to make the car safely and reliably operable and minimize further deterioration. But that brings up a couple more questions. If the goal is to preserve the car as is, should it become a “trailer queen" to prevent (impossible) or at least minimize further deterioration? Or should it be driven as it was intended to be? The latter will eventually require replacement of some of the car's parts, making it less original. And there’s an even thornier question: assume the car is the ONLY surviving example…preserve or restore? |
02-05-2019, 02:39 PM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: now Kuna, Idaho
Posts: 3,779
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
My (admittedly extreme) take: Unless you can come up with the original air for the tires, it will never be factory original, nor ever be a 100% restoration to original! It will just have an original appearance!! And, what about the original fingerprints of the employee that first drove it out of the factory??
|
02-05-2019, 02:51 PM | #9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,375
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
It seems that any time there is a gathering of Model A's it is the completely original cars that attract the most attention.
|
02-05-2019, 03:20 PM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: NNNNNNNNJJJJJJJJJJ
Posts: 6,787
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
thanks Chud, yes that be it.
almost easier to take an old restoration car and give it the "look" of patina. Then you at least already have a driving vehicle. Cost being about the same, easier to make a good car look worse then to bring this one up in condition. |
02-05-2019, 03:32 PM | #11 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern Tennessee
Posts: 11,509
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Quote:
Steve, I know you and I have discussed this car some awhile ago, and my thoughts on your particular question(s) is, -it really not that cut & dried. Great opinions above and I will add my 2 cents. The hobby from my perspective has blossomed over the past few decades where there is not one particular genre that is right or wrong any more. "Survivor" used to mean something totally different than what it does today. "Restored" used to mean something totally different than it does today. Included in that is restorations capabilities of car owners (i.e.: skills, resources, funds, etc.) used to be totally different than what they are today, ...so all those differences added up means there is a market for every types of Model-As in all types of conditions. Your vehicle will likely appeal to a buyer who wants to own it as-is, -or possibly someone who is a hobbyist restorer with possibly limited skills who is looking for an easier restoration. The biggest thing you need to do is find THAT person that loves the vehicle for the genre it represents as that person is the one that will spend the most money on it. Best wishes. |
|
02-05-2019, 08:44 PM | #12 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: SoCal
Posts: 47
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Not really a direct answer to the question asked but....
One of my favorite cars is a 65 fuel injected corvette an acquaintance owns. He bought it in 68 and has driven it once a week to work and occasionally on weekends ever since. The lacquer is checked, it's never been painted. The carpet and seats are worn. Motor/trans have never been apart. While the FI unit has been serviced, its never been restored just maintained. What an awesome car. It would be a crime to tear it all apart to make it look pretty and new. Others, unless its a truely unique model, that have been used and abused. Restore em. modify em. It's the owners car to do with as they want. |
02-05-2019, 09:35 PM | #13 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: thorofare, NJ
Posts: 32
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Find them fix them drive them. have fun!
|
02-05-2019, 09:55 PM | #14 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Takoma Park, MD
Posts: 2,817
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
I wish there were more photos. It looks pretty good, but that price seems quite reasonable. I vote for preservation, but it really depends on what you are starting with. You are in the same state, so you have probably seen it in person. You can also buy it and decide exactly what to do later.
|
02-05-2019, 11:36 PM | #15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Farmington MI
Posts: 284
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
I'm new to this forum, but have be with my Model A for 60 years. I do enjoy reading the widely varied opinions on the subject of original vs restored. My other "hobby" is Antique Outboard Motors, trust me in our club (aomci.org) we have exactly the same discussion and varied opinions on the subject. The best advice seems to be the same... it's your car/ outboard do with it what gives you satisfaction. My personal opinion, I appreciate an un-molested original. All it takes to make a "100 point" car/ outboard is a fat checkbook, it took 80 years to make an original.
Joe B |
02-06-2019, 01:26 AM | #16 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Lone Jack Missouri
Posts: 381
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
I am with Shark 81. My car is a mutt but I love it and it's mine
Sent from my SM-J701M using Tapatalk |
02-06-2019, 05:36 AM | #17 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: langley, wa.
Posts: 642
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Quote:
|
|
02-06-2019, 07:49 AM | #18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Innisfil, Ontario Canada
Posts: 1,174
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
My thoughts are that if you find a low mile original car then I would work on preserving it just for the details in the car. In the future it would be a great reference when someone is restoring there car. Sometimes you just have to look at something to get it right. Picture, articles, etc just don't give you the right info. JP
|
02-06-2019, 08:20 AM | #19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: FRESNO, CA
Posts: 12,560
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Much "PATINA" is attributed to some LAZY BUM, that won't clean his car!!!----NLOL
Most of the rhetoric I've read is the SAME Old B.S. that has been REPEATED & REPEATED!!! Get a LIFE, & start a fresh train of thought, on the subject!!! Bill Bored
__________________
"THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF" |
02-06-2019, 08:22 AM | #20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: North Eastern MD
Posts: 486
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
That is a nice looking car. IF it were mine, I would go the 'preservation' route if that's what youre into. I like to see a nice original car. Although this is on the higher end of the 'A' scale, its not a Delahaye or Duesenburg. It wouldn't hurt the value if a few upgrades were done. New top and interior for one thing, and upgraded/rebuilt mechanicals for drivability. The wood would have to be near perfect as well. From the outside it looks pretty nice, but if the wood is rotted that would change the equation.
|
02-06-2019, 08:27 AM | #21 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Liberty, KY
Posts: 900
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Go the preservation route then if doesn't suit you restore it. You can always restore but you can never go back!
|
02-06-2019, 09:06 AM | #22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Alberta
Posts: 930
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
If you are buying it as an investment expecting to make money on it, leave it as is. The more money you put in, the less likely you will get it back out in most cases. However, if you are buying it because you want it, then do whatever will make you enjoy it the most.
|
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) |
|
02-06-2019, 09:08 AM | #23 |
BANNED
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 1,262
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
"Restored"? just what does that mean? a 3 color car with wide whites and turn signals?.Modifications 'for touring' allowed?.There was a time when 'restoring' model a's and racing Hubley cars was in fashion,nowadays the clubs are geriatric,cant tell you how many younger owners come to one meeting and never return..Look no further than the hotrod pages on facebook,the guys needed to keep the hobby alive..30 to 50 somethings with money..are buying older restorations and hotrodding them.The new blood didn't have a father regale them with stories of 5 dollar A's run on drain oil..nope,they see sexy,and a 3 color model a with wide whites driven by a guy with velcro sneakers aint sexy..Get hip,the patina cars and modifieds are the way of the future.Bangers,FAST and TROG are where the future lies,the only hope for a dying tradition..model A's with stock components need to evolve,or they all will fall to the saw..
|
02-06-2019, 09:09 AM | #24 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: upstate NY near Mass border
Posts: 789
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Post 6, Paul; I am doing a CCPU the same as what you are doing except I can't bring myself to change to a Weber or Hydraulic brakes. The brake question has been addressed here many times but the wheels can only slide just so hard regardless of how you accomplish it. I would suggest that you look into using tongue oil and turpentine with four ought steel wool over the rusty finish. Patina 101. Good luck, Jack
|
02-06-2019, 09:12 AM | #25 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wheeling, WV - U.S.A.
Posts: 241
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
The unrestored cars ALWAYS get more attention when you take them out, IMHO.
Brian W. |
02-06-2019, 09:28 AM | #26 |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 74
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
|
02-06-2019, 10:34 AM | #27 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Connecticut Shoreline
Posts: 1,823
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
I would think that what really matters is making you happy. No matter what you do there will be people agreeing and disagreeing. That’s just life.
A very well cared for Model A, that is priced right, will be able to find a new home. There are a lot of Model A’s and there is a lot of junk out there. I would get all the mechanicals in good order and go from there. I always tell people that’s it’s a hobby. Something like owning a boat. The reason we have them is for enjoyment. If your looking at it as an investment? I would recommend you look someplace else. Enjoy. |
02-06-2019, 10:59 AM | #28 |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 74
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Yes, do what makes you happy and don't worry about anyone else
|
02-06-2019, 12:04 PM | #29 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Annandale, VA
Posts: 150
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Hey Jack -
I will try it. What ratio tongue oil to terps would be good? Thanks. Bj |
02-06-2019, 01:58 PM | #30 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Kritter Krick, Flaw-duh
Posts: 1,158
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Quote:
As has been pointed out in this thread, "original" means different things to different people. I agree it means what came out of the factory but my definition ends there. Seat upholstery with a hole worn in it may have been originally installed in the car but it is no longer as it left the factory. |
|
02-06-2019, 02:03 PM | #31 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Kritter Krick, Flaw-duh
Posts: 1,158
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Quote:
Well, nobody twisted your arm to make you read it but feel free to add that fresh train of thought. |
|
02-06-2019, 11:46 PM | #32 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 70
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
I think its all subjective. To me restoration can be preservation. To replace worn out pieces with new pieces keeps the vehicle running and around for many more years.
With talk about history of the vehicle. I think if you take a decent car and restore it is making your own history and the next possible owner could feel the same way about preserving it. With my grandfather's truck that I have now I plan to keep it the way it looks as long as possible. But that is because I have my own history with the vehicle. I will fix/repair what needs to be fixed. The one thing I plan to keep completely off limits is the writing on the side. Getting the cab repainted, redoing the engine, or any other updates wouldn't bother me. If I didn't have a connection to it I would want my own history to be made that I can enjoy. A vehicle's history may not be known to you and all you are left to do is wonder about it. Fix it, change it, add to that history. |
02-07-2019, 08:12 AM | #33 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: upstate NY near Mass border
Posts: 789
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Paul; I use half and half, but it is not very scientific. Jack
|
02-08-2019, 06:32 PM | #34 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: So Minn
Posts: 1,565
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
|
02-09-2019, 10:10 PM | #35 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Manawatu, New Zealand
Posts: 1,416
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Quote:
But as you say beauty is the eye of the beholder and it is your car. Karl
__________________
Such a fine sight to see-Its a Girl, My Lord, in a Flatbed Ford slowin' down to take a look at me. |
|
02-09-2019, 10:40 PM | #36 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 2,332
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Do not know why, but am usually drawn to the "imperfect" A's. Guess I like seeing the bumps/bruises, imperfect paint, etc. and wonder how they got that way. And also marvel at how 90 year old, rusty, leaky parts are still somewhat functional.
I like the restored ones too, but not trained to notice the intricacies of what is a high point restoration, or notice different methods used to restore or make them look new. They are still beautiful though. |
02-10-2019, 12:57 AM | #37 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: now Kuna, Idaho
Posts: 3,779
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Quote:
Properly adjusted mechanical brakes will slide all four wheels. Properly adjusted hydraulic brakes will slide all four wheels. Seems to be just a matter of personal preference! I will add that a hydraulic conversion with a dual master cylinder that is not properly set up will lose all its brakes with just a small leak in either front OR rear. |
|
02-11-2019, 04:10 AM | #38 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 7,496
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Quote:
__________________
I'm part of the only ever generation with an analogue childhood and a digital adulthood. |
|
02-11-2019, 11:52 AM | #39 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: now Kuna, Idaho
Posts: 3,779
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Quote:
I did mean a dual master cylinder. The problem is that total pedal travel has to be the same as original or the pedal will hit the floor before the brakes are applied in case of a leak. If you've ever blown a hose, you noticed that the pedal went to about an inch off the floor before you had any brakes! That is normal. If a dual master is mounted in an early car and has less pedal travel than OEM or pedal ratio is different, the pedal will likely hit the floor before you have any brakes! |
|
02-12-2019, 06:23 PM | #40 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central FL, USA
Posts: 1,137
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Enclosed is a pic of my '31 deluxe roadster: Virginia. From what I know of her history. She was "refurbished" in the early 50's. A "B" block was added,
also paint, top/side curtains and maybe the interior. On the driver's side door post is an oil change sticker from 1957, showing about 90,000 some miles. The odometer still works and now shows around 110,000. I've completely rebuild the brakes and done some other needed mechanics. To keep the car save to drive. Unfortunately, the interior was completely shot. A friend of mine redid it for me. Not authentic, but it looks right. I'm thinking of selling her. I want a nice older restored "A". One I can put a lot of miles on and not worry about losing its originality. Bob-A |
02-13-2019, 08:46 AM | #41 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: North Eastern MD
Posts: 486
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Bob-A, that is a beautiful car. While im not crazy about rat rods, or rust waxed cars, that is my idea of a nice preserved car. Though it may have been repainted in 1950 and not original, it still looks really nice. Its too bad im a year or so away from actually thinking about a purchase!
|
02-17-2019, 01:33 AM | #42 |
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Cucamonga, CA
Posts: 21
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
|
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) |
|
02-17-2019, 05:16 AM | #43 |
BANNED
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Walla Walla, Washington USA
Posts: 6,066
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
So I bought this very early 1929 (Feb) Tudor about 10 years ago or there abouts...It was either me or a hot rodder.
Things that were noted when I bought it... 1. It was repainted at some time in its life BUT it was repainted the same color as it was originally; 2. The fabric top was replaced at some time in it's life BUT with the same type of material that it was originally; 3. Shocks were reproductions BUT replaced with originals that were restored; 4. Cast Iron sediment bowl was cracked so I replaced it with a original that was not cracked; 5. The chassis was so covered with crud of dirty hard grease in most spots you could not see the grease zerks in lots of places or anything else as that goes; 6. Upholstery is in its original condition as most other things still on the car. I decided to remove the body, take everything off the frame and come back with it by cleaning it up taking great care as not to remove most of the original paint that was originally put on the chassis parts, replacing parts, as bearings and bushings, with good unrestored parts that still retained the original finish except as noted above if need be, and just tried to keep it in it's original shape/condition the best I could except for the nice shinny restored items (shocks and sediment bowl). So...did I restore the car or did I preserve the car? I would estimate that overall it is about 85% still in its original condition but what do I know??? Pluck Last edited by Steve Plucker; 02-17-2019 at 05:21 AM. |
02-17-2019, 07:32 PM | #44 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Sunrise Beach, Mo
Posts: 439
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Quote:
|
|
02-18-2019, 08:27 AM | #45 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: North Eastern MD
Posts: 486
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Quote:
|
|
02-18-2019, 08:31 AM | #46 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: North Eastern MD
Posts: 486
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
|
02-18-2019, 10:33 AM | #47 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 8,099
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
It looks good , Bob !!!
|
02-22-2019, 03:07 PM | #48 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Central FL, USA
Posts: 1,137
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
To all who have complemented my "A", Virginia. Thank you very much!
She is such a nice car and runs super sweet. I just can't make up my mine as to whether to sale her or not. The 'ol lady and I are thinking about moving into a smaller place and are starting to down-size. What to do, what to do..... Bob-A |
02-22-2019, 03:54 PM | #49 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: So Minn
Posts: 1,565
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Quote:
Bob, keep it until you can't drive it anymore. "Downsizing" doesn't include the things you enjoy and will miss. That is called "dying" and since you can still remember all the words and where they go in a sentence it doesn't look like you are near the Pearly Gates yet. |
|
02-22-2019, 08:40 PM | #50 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 7,496
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Quote:
__________________
I'm part of the only ever generation with an analogue childhood and a digital adulthood. |
|
02-23-2019, 03:18 AM | #51 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Alberta
Posts: 930
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Quote:
The critics all like our records just fine But they seem a bit confused Is it folk or rock or country Whoa, seems like everybody cares but us........ However, in your case I would just go with "unmodified" if anyone asked. Last edited by Licensed to kill; 02-23-2019 at 03:27 AM. |
|
02-23-2019, 03:25 AM | #52 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Alberta
Posts: 930
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Another thing that all this "restored vs preserved" reminds me of is an old saying regarding originality about the guy selling Daniel Boone's personal tomahawk. "It's the actual tomahawk that Dan'l himself carried but has been restored over the years. The head's been replaced twice and the handle's been replaced 4 times".
|
02-23-2019, 03:29 PM | #53 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wakarusa, IN
Posts: 928
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Quote:
__________________
http://MODELABASICS.com/ How Things Work on a Model "A" Ford Fordbarners, Feel free to use the pictures on my site to answer questions and create tutorials/tech articles. |
|
02-23-2019, 05:00 PM | #54 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Alabama
Posts: 8,099
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
Quote:
I've got to agree with Dennis . I would keep it !!!!!!! |
|
02-24-2019, 10:10 AM | #55 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: massachusetts
Posts: 19
|
Re: Preservation vs Restoration
bottom line do what makes YOU happy!!!!
|
|
|
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) |
|