Getting to Know an Old Jalopy Roadster and Making It Work

[hotrod937]

Got this 1931 A off eslay. Bought sight unseen in person and went off what I was told by the seller. Putting faith in strangers is a real exercise in humanity. The car showed up supposedly built and ready to drive. I was told it's an old hot rod found as is with cracked Winfield (replaced with stock head by seller) It's solid with a little rust, bad floor work, two 97's and a Wico JEM. Very nice chassis with z and fresh looking motor. These are the old good things..


The car is put together not so well and leaking from seemingly everywhere. When we attempted to get it running and it wasn't wanting to run at all. First step was looking inside the tank. Found a mouse nest of cotton in there and assumed it's also in the carbs. Got another tank and fully rebuilt the carbs with all Stromberg parts. Here's the carb rebuild vids.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2FHaX8pIJc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KoQv7jOjtk


Now it runs and will stay running. Time to take it for a drive up and down our culdesac. OMG! I knew mech brakes might be a handful but this was insane. Car was wildly uncontrollable when stopping. It locked up random tires and sent you in many directions.
Here's video of the car running and driving after the carb rebuild. Notice the brakes are funky..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3H6x2BTctI\

After reading everything I could find on mech brakes I was confident in my ability to get them working. I made a call to an old timer friend of mine in the local A club who not only gave me some good advice but let me take out his restored 5 window to see how an A should run and stop.


The drums and shoes were newer looking and it looked like all four corners had springs kits. The adjusters are funky and the working hardware should probably be replaced. I made my wood pedal tool and found that the pedal didn't engauge the rears. I took off the drums and found the rod for the e brake was engaging the main shoes and the pedal engaged the worn and glazed e brake shoes. I switched the rods around adjusted all 4 corners per online recommendations. The rods hooked up wrong and the rats nest in the gas tank among other things lead me to believe that whom ever put this car together didn't know what they were doing.

So now the car runs and stops amazing. I took it out on the main road to find that the car breaks up bad after running down the road. It pops, misses and back fires. It's the timing. I played with the timing and it purs like a kitten in the driveway but after getting out down the road it continues to break up. I sanded the points in the Wico and set the gap at .019. Car seemed to run amazing but keeps getting out of time.

While playing with the mag and watching the rotor I noticed there is a massive amount of play in the turning action of the body to how the rotor moves. Took it apart to find the drive rod is very worn. also the drive on the mag is worn and I'm assuming the oil pump gear drive is also sloppy.

So I break out the Macs catalog to order the parts and a full gasket set. The oil leak is still pouring and I believe there's preasure building up in the case. My cap is good with tabs in place and no wool inserted. It drips a little sometimes after running and others times it pours. I never let the oil get past half way between f and add. The car got severely out of time the last test drive and I limped it home about a mile popping and banging. I didn't hear any pining and the plugs looked just right. So in my desire to want things to be right and knowing the dumb mistakes a previous owner had made I decided to pull the motor and just check everything over on my own. Currently the motor is sitting on a tire and tonight I'll mount it up on a stand and pull the pan. Here's my farm raised neighbor helping me pull the engine. Took us about an hour.



Side note: as for the look of the car, I can't stand how it sits with the z kick in the frame. I want a stock dropped axle for now until I find a stock frame. After I get this thing running, steering and stopping how it should, I'll probably do a frame up mild resto on it and fix the body up and make everything nice.

[Big John]

another period hot rod will bite the dust.....

[luckyal]

Not to be cynical but I sure hope you did not pay to much !!
Al

[Vanspeed]

I like it! I had a similar 29 that I dragged out of a basement in Downtown Detroit. It is now living somewhere in Northern California.

[todd3131]

I have a restored 31 roadster that is very nice but I do like the heck out of this one. It is a fun car and the mechanical work is the kind that can be fun to fix if it were mine I would be tempted to find a set of 32 rail to put under it.
Todd

[1931 flamingo]

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I like ! ! Period perfection. Ck the timing gears as long as you've got the engine out. Keep us posted.
Paul in CT

[29ModelA]

I'd drain the oil and put the proper amount in keeping in mind what stays in the dipper tray. It may be getting overfilled.

[hotrod937]

I was thinking that we might be overfilling it. I've since drained the oil and pulled the motor. Pretty sure we were overfilling the rad also as it was coming out of the overflow. Seems to like being 3/4 full.

Side note: Not sure about how strict you guys are round here. I mostly live on the no holds barred, member's police themselves Pirate4x4. I'm also active on the HAMB, Practicalmachinist, hotrodders, hondatwin and several other boards. I understand what this board is and was told to come here from the HAMB board as my cars issues are mostly stock. I know that most A guys would scrap my car as it's not the club car standard. I'm sure when I take it to my friends above with the stocker A he will probably drop right there where he stands when he see's how hacked this car is. We probably paid too much but it's what was available when the money was ready to be spent. I'd also hate to take a nice one and gut it up. I'd rather take a rough one and make it nice.

Back to the topic at hand. What do you guys know about the oil pump gear and the 4 thou and 10 thou oversize? How do I know which one to get. I guess I'll just measure the slop and see how bad it is. What are your thoughts. I'm going outside right now to take the thing apart and would like to order some parts tonight from Macs. Thanks.

[gz]

Chances are the 10 thou one will work just fine. For example, on a 1929 tudor I just got running, I had enough play in the distributor I could rotate the rotor about 20-25 degrees. I installed the 10 thou oversize gear and completely got rid of the play. I actually bought both oversize gears from Snyders and tried them both. They took back the one I did not use.

Initially, you may want to remove the magneto and replace it with a stock distributor. A stock distributor is easier to time and does not have as many variables that can go wrong like the magneto does. Get the car running well with the stock distributor, and, in the meantime, have your magneto professionally rebuilt by someone who really understands magnetos and then re-install it. You might also find you don't really need or want the magneto.

Nice looking roadster. It is rare to buy a car that doesn't need any work-despite what the seller says. Keep at it and you'll have neat looking and driving car when your done. I certainly enjoy my 1928!

[George Miller]

I think you will find that you are running out of gas at high speeds. You need a fuel pump with your set up.

[Step-down]

HotRod937 I enjoyed reading your thread, A breathe of fresh air. Looks like your enjoying the Hell out of this project ....

[QGolden]

Originally Posted by hotrod937

I'd also hate to take a nice one and gut it up. I'd rather take a rough one and make it nice.

Welcome, I agree with your philosophy, my current project is one that has been cobbled together, and then orphaned many times by many previous owners. For me it will be a Speedster, and the sum of its parts will be better than what I started with. Like you, I will be able to say that no Model A's were injured in the creation of this project. Drive on and enjoy the journey until you get it to where you want it to be...

[mhsprecher]

I love your initiative. I'd be frustrated as heck right now if I were you, but you have laudable persistence. Keep it up. I often appeal to the patron saint of lost causes to keep me going.

[hotrod937]

Well I'm still working on getting the engine on a stand. I pulled the side cover and everything looks good in there. No broken springs and all valves move up and down as they should which means not too much newer non zinc oil has had the chance to round off any cam lobes. I can see that my oil pump drive gear slot is beat just like the rod. Heads up on the 10 thou one. I'll probably by them both like you did. You think the stock size oil pump dist drive gear is for sure a no no?

I also pulled the oil fill tube with zero clogs though it was clocked 180 out (no biggie as it just doesn't let the oil drain as easy).

I pulled the clutch and it looks good but worn. I'm thinking I'm going to get the 1939 trans conversion and use one of the two I've got sitting. Should I just get a new clutch while I'm in there? If it's not too cheap. Damn, now I'm thinking new babbit and counter weighted crank with a light weight flywheel. I need to focus on the oil leak for now..

So I turned the crank back and fourth to see if there was any "slack" and didn't feel any but when I moved it fore and aft there is a bit of thrust wear. What is spec thrust on an A block?

After dinner it's pull the pan and look inside. I've never had one of these apart so I'm pretty excited.

[midgetracer]

George Miller is right. You will need a fuel pump with this carb setup. Make sure the fuel pump you get is not the solenoid type, as they do not last with gasahol. I fought with one of these carb setups on a customer car for a couple of months until he finally agreed to try a fuel pump. No more stumbling as you accelerate past a certain speed.

[gwhite]

...or a period-correct fix would be pressurizing the fuel tank. I'll be running a Winfield SR-B downdraft on the A motor in my T RPU project (fuel tank is in the bed), so here's what I came up with;

1918-ish Dodge pressure gauge & 1922 Cadillac hand pump mounted on a modified late teens-early 20's AutoLite switch/ammeter bezel.

Love your project by the way...hope you get her on the road soon!

[Tom Wesenberg]

The end play for the crank is about.006" and try to keep the oil pan down until you remove it so all the babbit pieces and oil will stay in the pan, so you can see what's in there. When I bought my 29 Tudor and pulled the pan I found a lot of babbit pieces in the bottom of the pan.

[Mike V. Florida]

Amazing how properly restored mechincal brakes work is it not?

[hotrod937]

As for the gas issue I try not to run any whiskey gas. My other hot rods don't like it. I'll only run the good stuff with lead and some oil mixed for lube sake. I've got a spun tank and Mr. Crapsket (which I already had to replace from mid jan and almost zero running and driving) 2-3psi pump for now just to get her going. Feeds them two 97's good as far as I can tell.

I just spent about 4 hours getting this thing on a stand. I don't work well when confined and surrounded by oil slick and tools everywhere. Took me forever to make the setup but it's on there. I couldn't wait to get the pan off and see what's inside.

I noticed a chipped tooth on the timing set. How do I get the fly wheel off?

I don't really know what I'm looking at just yet but I'm stoked to see something different.. And OMGeez! Those mech brakes are amazing. Makes me wonder why anyone would go juice.

[fordcoupe]

Thanks for the great photos nice roadster

[FL&WVMIKE]

hotrod937 ................
I think that your car is beautiful ! Just get it running good and drive it like it, is for a while. People will love it !
Pay no attemtion to any rude remarks, that you might get on here. Anyone would love to have your roadster !
MIKE

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by hotrod937

As for the gas issue I try not to run any whiskey gas. My other hot rods don't like it. I'll only run the good stuff with lead and some oil mixed for lube sake. I've got a spun tank and Mr. Crapsket (which I already had to replace from mid jan and almost zero running and driving) 2-3psi pump for now just to get her going. Feeds them two 97's good as far as I can tell.

I just spent about 4 hours getting this thing on a stand. I don't work well when confined and surrounded by oil slick and tools everywhere. Took me forever to make the setup but it's on there. I couldn't wait to get the pan off and see what's inside.

I noticed a chipped tooth on the timing set. How do I get the fly wheel off?

I don't really know what I'm looking at just yet but I'm stoked to see something different.. And OMGeez! Those mech brakes are amazing. Makes me wonder why anyone would go juice.

Looks like the silly cone man had a party in there. Don't use any more of that stuff than necessary, it gets in places it shouldn't.

The oversize (.004/.010) drive gears won't help with the slack. The oversize is in the shaft, not the gear. I would also suggest you order from Snyder's. They have a tech dept that actually knows what a Model A is.

The flywheel comes off by removing the 4 bolts and prying it off. If you can't get anything behind it, remove the starter and hit it with a drift as you turn it 1/4 turn at a time. Be careful with that thing, it weighs about 72# and can chop a toe off or break bones indiscriminately.

Nice ride!

[rusty12]

"The oversize (.004/.010) drive gears won't help with the slack. The oversize is in the shaft, not the gear."

Not true, they are oversize in the gear. I have three in the shop- original, .004 and .010. Same shaft diameter but all different gear thickness. The oversize gear helps compensate for wear in the camshaft gear as well.

[Chris in WNC]

looks like something you can have great fun with!
congratulations for realizing that mechanical brakes will work fine.
youy will soon find better alternatives to Macs for parts....
enjoy!

[Tom Wesenberg]

I like to insert a couple long bolts for the flywheel to slide on while prying it loose. Once loose then lift on the flywheel and unscrew the long bolts. A flat wonder bar prying against the flywheel through the starter hole works pretty well. Just keep rotating the flywheel as you pry to walk it off the dowl pins.

I wish my 91 Olds had mechanical brakes the other day!
It must have blown another brake line because coming home from Fleet Farm the other day the pedal suddenly went to the floor. Even with the dual master cylinder when you blow a line you don't have much for brakes. And with the cross feed system they now use the car pulls to the side with the one working front disc brake. The one working rear brake doesn't do much braking.
Minnesota road salt is for safety.......yaah you bet!!!

[hotrod937]

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Crank end end play is .050

[ctlikon0712]

Really? That is allot! Just under a 1/16" or 0.0625" huh? That will cause your timing to change as the heilical crank and cam gear will advance and retard the cam and distrubutor depending on how the crank is thrust/loaded.

[hotrod937]

Alright, So I'm thinking I'm gonna press forward with the fix since the motor runs good. I'm going to talk to an old timer right now with some A and B motors. I'm thinking I need to have a spare B motor to build while I drive the leaky one around. What say you about A motor vs B motor? If it's the counter weight one I'm buying it.

[midgetracer]

To get the flywheel off, pry gently in the starter hole and keep rotating the crankshaft. Be careful when it comes off though, the SOB is heavy.

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by hotrod937

Crank end end play is .050

There is no way you are going to stop the rear main leak with that much end play. should be .004-.006 Looks like who ever built your engine needs a little help.

[Gold Digger]

I see a lot of silicone gasket sealer has been used. Has anyone besides me had problems with that stuff plugging the oil pump screens up and running engines?

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by Gold Digger

I see a lot of silicone gasket sealer has been used. Has anyone besides me had problems with that stuff plugging the oil pump screens up and running engines?

That is why I said the builder needed a little help. He used way to much of that crap. Yes I have seen it many times in the oil pump screen. The scary part is if he does not know how to use sealer, and .050 end play, how about the rest of his work.

[hotrod937]

So it looks like I'm fuct. So I went to buy a motor today and found a pile. There was also a "C" motor with the 3 bolt water pump and counterweight crank. $300 for an A or 600 for the "C". Should I build the "C" motor into a hot shot banger? He said it would run but he also said there was oil in it, just a little water with a little oil. I'm torn.

[switchkid0]

Depending on what part of the country you're in, I'd like to think you could find a used engine to run without too much trouble. Perhaps asking around the local clubs? Lots of hoarders out there, and if you have something interesting to trade, you could get lucky.

[pat in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by hotrod937

So it looks like I'm fuct. So I went to buy a motor today and found a pile. There was also a "C" motor with the 3 bolt water pump and counterweight crank. $300 for an A or 600 for the "C". Should I build the "C" motor into a hot shot banger? He said it would run but he also said there was oil in it, just a little water with a little oil. I'm torn.

"C" engines, are really Model B. The C was on the Model B head because a B was already in use for the "high" compression head for the Model A. Clear as mud??

. Any way, Model B engines tend to crack on the deck, usually from a valve toward the cylinder, and often down the bore. That can be fixed, but its not uncommon for there to be more than one crack. And it can get expensive and it can repeat itself again later on somewhere else. A worse situation is a crack through the valve seat running down the port..that can be impossible to fix if it goes too far down the port. Ask if you can pull the head and inspect for cracks.

I like your car. are you going to leave it with the patina it has? It has a real vintage feel to it the way it is.

[hotrod937]

I'm not liking the gamble of paying 6 bills for a "C" Diamond motor when keep reading about "B" motors cracking. I'd settle for a running motor to have while I get the other built.

I'm still gonna try and see what's up in the rear of my motor but I'm thinking the 50 thou thrust is the reason why it's pouring oil..

I'm having a very hard time finding out any info about these A B and C motors. Not much info on insert bearings, pressurized oiling conversions and counter weighted cranks. Yeah, there's the Banger meets on hamb but good luck getting any info out of them unless you want to read every page on every month.

[ctlikon0712]

Try Vince Faulter's FordGarage at http://www.fordgarage.com/ He has allot of A and B info and explains the B/C thing. It is a very informative site and I think it is in one if the "Stickys"

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by rusty12

"The oversize (.004/.010) drive gears won't help with the slack. The oversize is in the shaft, not the gear."

Not true, they are oversize in the gear. I have three in the shop- original, .004 and .010. Same shaft diameter but all different gear thickness. The oversize gear helps compensate for wear in the camshaft gear as well.

My apologies, you are most probably correct. This would explain a problem I had with a drive in a motor recently. I reinstalled the existing drive along with a Stipe cam and the drive would pop up. I replaced it with a new standard one and it was good. I then used the removed drive in a motor with a reground cam and it worked fine.

[Brendan]

i almost bid on that car when it was on evil bay!

[hotrod937]

So I'm still holding out hope that I can get the great running leaky A motor up and running with this maybe.
http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/se...A-6334&x=0&y=0

In the mean time I have a line on a counterweight diamond "C" motor and some babbitt guys. I plan on trying to get this leaky motor up and running while building a hot street banger..

[gwhite]

Good luck! Don't give up & keep us posted!!

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by hotrod937

So I'm still holding out hope that I can get the great running leaky A motor up and running with this maybe.
http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/se...A-6334&x=0&y=0

In the mean time I have a line on a counterweight diamond "C" motor and some babbitt guys. I plan on trying to get this leaky motor up and running while building a hot street banger..

That's the one. Be sure to save the aluminum part you remove so you can reinstall it if you ever get this block rebabbitted.

[pat in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by hotrod937

So I'm still holding out hope that I can get the great running leaky A motor up and running with this maybe.
http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/se...A-6334&x=0&y=0

I was going to suggest that.

In the mean time I have a line on a counterweight diamond "C" motor and some babbitt guys. I plan on trying to get this leaky motor up and running while building a hot street banger..

BTW, there is no "C" motor that resembles an A or B in any way. Old guys tale is all it is. see this:
http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/modelcmyth.htm

modern rods for inserts, inserts, and the machine work to install them on A or B blocks are available from Rich Falluca at Antique Engine Rebuilding:

http://www.antiqueenginerebuilding.com/

[hotrod937]

Well I got the cap off. I don't know what I'm looking at. Looks like there's a flat round "slinger on there and no seal. The cap doesn't have a hole for oil to drain down the tube. Should it?

[Dune Country]

with all of that blue rtv you want to check you oil passages especially the crank,
don't ask.

[Tom Wesenberg]

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If you look at the oil collection groove in the rear of the cap, you should see the horizontal hole that leads to the down tube. You might try blowing into the end of the tube and see if you feel the air coming out the groove.

[George Miller]

You can see in the picture there is a big gap in the thrust. must be 1/8 end play. You will never stop the leak until you fix the end play. You can get a bronze thrust from the parts suppliers, that might fix it.

[darrylkmc]

hotrod937

The rear bearing shown in the photo has a half moon shaped crack about the center at the front edge, you can see the drain tube below it.

It may also have at least two more at the back end, one about the center line, and another in the upper left of your photo from the back end towards your oil groove, both longitudinal.

Darryl in Fairbanks

[James Rogers]

I feel like I have made my point about the bronze junk but I don't believe even if it would work like it is advertized that is too much gap for even it to fix. I have never seen one worn like that. Were there any shims between the cap and block? If no you have nothing to adjust the bearing with except to sand the parting line surface on the cap and that will soon destroy it. Even if you sand it and get the top and bottom right the sides won't be close and it will still leak. Looks to me like that one is a great candidate for a new set of bearings. Sometimes things are just too worn out to make do with. You need a local to help with the assessment of this problem.

[Duffy1]

Ditto James ; That rear main babbit is in bad shape.

[dumb person]

This is one of those times where i agree with the others. That bearing looks like it would be fine for some old mans farm truck that only gets used to fetch firewood or go fishing once a month but for a road going car it looks a bit tired.

[hotrod937]

I got the bronze thrust cap today. I'm not seeing where or how it goes in. Could someone direct me please on where to put this thing?

[hotrod937]

Do I machine off the thrust part of the bearing? Does it fit in the round pocket where the oil drain tube comes out and need to be machined for the oil drain cast in the center of the round pocket?

[James Rogers]

The thrust goes in the block in place of the aluminum seal. You have to remove the babbitt in the top of the block to get it in. Once you get the babbitt off and that thing won't work, you will for sure have to have a set of bearings. You are in a lose/lose situation but, live and learn.
BTW,You will have to remove all the rods and the mains and pull the crank to get it in. Lots of work for nothing.

[hotrod937]

Cool. Got some plastigauge to check the clearance Clarance. Looks like I'm taking it down. So I torque the head to 55#'s. What are the specs on the mains and rods?

[James Rogers]

Rods-40#
Mains-80#

[Richard Wilson]

James.....You can lead them to water but you can't make them drink.

[RUNNERBUN]

Originally Posted by Gold Digger

I see a lot of silicone gasket sealer has been used. Has anyone besides me had problems with that stuff plugging the oil pump screens up and running engines?

Yes, you're not the only one. It was a very expensive mistake. I still like the stuff but use it very sparingly and with a lot care.

[dumb person]

Good luck installing the bronze thing, i never tried it myself. Everyone thinks it might be a short term fix but it is only until you get a better one or that one you have now rebuilt, right? Should work out until then.

[hotrod937]

Thanks James. I understand that this probably won't work. I give it a 20% chance. It would be one thing if I had a cherry A that I had to pull the motor out of but I've already got the motor out and apart so I'm gonna spend a little time and effort and give it a shot. I'm told by guys here to try the bronze and I'm told buy guys to stay away. I know my babbitt is in not the best shape. My end game plan is to build a motor all the way. My situation doesn't allow me to drop 4 grand on what the end game has in store. This is something that will have to be done over time.

I'm sick with anything that has a motor and wheels. Some of the rides in the shop now are a 1945 Jeep, a 97 Jeep TJ going one tons, 94 YJ, 1929 Tudor AV8, 1969 Camaro, 1979 Trans Am, 55 Chevy Gasser 1965 Triumph TR4, 72 TR6, 74 CB450 cafe build, cb360 cafe build, xs650 hard tail build and more. As you can see I'm on a mission to bang out these cars in (easy to get running order). I don't want another long term project and I'm hype to get this A roadster running and driving now.

[hotrod937]

Just pulled my crank. Left the pistons in place so I could easliy put everything back. There are shims in every clam. I've got everything in exact order so I can put it back exactly how it came out. I'm also gonna plastigauge all the bearings just to make sure they're not too far out. The rest of the babbitt looks good. Just that rear main is beat.

Now how do I get that thrust babbitt off the rear top of the block? Do I machine it out? Would be a bear to put it up on the Bridgeport table. Seems to me that's the only way.

[phartman]

Originally Posted by Richard Wilson

James.....You can lead them to water but you can't make them drink.

Never heard that one before.

I thought the saying was, "You can lead a whore to culture, but you can't make her think...."

Did I recall that correctly???

[James Rogers]

Both are correct. One is a northern saying and one is from Appalachia.

[hotrod937]

So any ideas on getting this bronze insert in? Machine the insert to add thrust to the stock babbitt or machine out the babbitt in the rear thrust area of the block? It didn't come with directions.. haha

[dumb person]

Originally Posted by hotrod937

So any ideas on getting this bronze insert in? Machine the insert to add thrust to the stock babbitt or machine out the babbitt in the rear thrust area of the block? It didn't come with directions.. haha

Can you carve off some babbitt & solder it onto the bronze? i added babbitt from an old rod onto a main bearing cap for thrust-face adjustment once and it worked ok. If the babbitt does tin onto the bronze like solder you might be able to solder it.

[hotrod937]

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Originally Posted by dumb person

Can you carve off some babbitt & solder it onto the bronze? i added babbitt from an old rod onto a main bearing cap for thrust-face adjustment once and it worked ok. If the babbitt does tin onto the bronze like solder you might be able to solder it.

This sounds like some surgery. How do I carve off the babbitt? Is it super soft? Could I oxy weld it or TIG weld it? I do have a solider gun. Maybe I could boogger a bunch of the old babbitt off the thrust I'm trying to remove and machine it down to cure my 50+ thou end play. Now how do I get the babbitt off? Do I take it down to flush with the block? How do I do it without cracking the main in the block?

Any tips on TIG welding or OXY welding the babbitt? Could I TIG weld the cracks in the main also? This just got interesting!... My buddy is an awesome TIG welder with exotics. Wonder what he knows? Babbitt melts at 750* How many amps would that be like 20? Would that be DC with some pulse? Oh I gotta know more!

[dumb person]

Babbitt is very soft, like solder, i can scrape it with my pocket knife, just scrape off enough to use for tinning the bronze thing i guess (like i said i have never done this bronze thing before). Ever see the big copper soldering iron that was used with a kerosene torch? i used that but had to take it to a place with an oxy' torch to heat it, all the kero' torches died of old age. Took about 5 minutes for the copper to go cold which was plenty of time to melt some old rod cap onto the thrust face. i then filed it to fit.

As for the cracks in the main i have seen some old posts on the internet where old guys glued the broken babbitt back on the caps when it fell out while doing maintenance to get them through until "next winter" so you might be able to live with those cracks as they are, meddling with them might make things worse.

Good luck!

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by hotrod937

Babbitt melts at 750* How many amps would that be like 20? Would that be DC with some pulse? Oh I gotta know more!

Babbitt melts at 450 degrees. You cook a steak at that temp. This is why I stated the bronze is junk. I have never had anyone explain to me how to install it. I have seen it used in several motors that were converted to inserts and it is still junk. Be careful working with heat around the babbitt, it will melt and fall off before you even know it is hot. I believe you are headed for a set of mains very soon.

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by hotrod937

So any ideas on getting this bronze insert in? Machine the insert to add thrust to the stock babbitt or machine out the babbitt in the rear thrust area of the block? It didn't come with directions.. haha

Take a small chisel start at the babbitt parting line then carefully chisel it off. Do not chisel the other way or you might take out the babbitt for the main bearing.
This is if you are talking the insert with slinger groove made in to it. If that does not remove all your end play, you can have the block and cap machined for the half round bronze inserts.

If it was me I would go all the way and put inserts in. But I can do that myself.

[Flathead]

Innocent question here. What is the deal with the bronze insert thrust repair thing? I see how it is supposed to work, and I know alot of work is involved. The motor in my car has excess end play but runs good. What problems would I likely encounter? I just wondered if it would be helpful for the end play.

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by Flathead

Innocent question here. What is the deal with the bronze insert thrust repair thing? I see how it is supposed to work, and I know alot of work is involved. The motor in my car has excess end play but runs good. What problems would I likely encounter? I just wondered if it would be helpful for the end play.

You won't know until you take it apart. But the babbitt jobs I have been seeing recently have not been good. Babbitt is breaking away from the block and cap. Was not like that years ago. I think it is a lost art.

[dumb person]

Originally Posted by James Rogers

I believe you are headed for a set of mains very soon.

If he can melt a little babbitt onto the surface without having to use the bronze thing will he have a better chance of getting 5 months running from this engine before needed a proper re-pour?

[Rakuda]

Excellent ride and thread!! I'm working on a similar 31 roadster. Although I'm missing the back half of the body on mine. I'm still looking for a reasonable single downdraft intake for a 97 I have. Working on calibrating the brakes this spring. I bet my wife I could get it on the road in 2 months last spring. It was a marginally safe on the road. . Its great to clip around with the windshield down. Wish I had hair for the wind to blow though

Joe

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by George Miller

You won't know until you take it apart. But the babbitt jobs I have been seeing recently have not been good. Babbitt is breaking away from the block and cap. Was not like that years ago. I think it is a lost art.

Not lost to everybody.

[Duffy1]

This post is up to 4 pages with no end in sight.

[hotrod937]

So I think I'm going to bite the bullet and spend the money on the mystery "B/C/Diamond" motor today. I'll post up when I know something.

Here's me doing the plastigauge. Didn't even register on the smash! Needs new bearings..

[James Rogers]

Too bad you waited, I sold my B with a factory forged CW crank and almost new rebuild, today. 3500$ funning out the door and the customer heard it run before he bought it. Guaranteed not to leak any fluids from anywhere!

[hotrod937]

Alright. I went to buy the B motor and it had a big weld repair on the front of the block where the water jacket is. There was a 28 A motor that looked real nice (5 cam bearings) but it was burried way in the pile and would take all day to get out. So as the old man was yelling at me I was looking for something to buy and not take up his time. I found this super clean A motor with fresh crosshatch pattern, deck machine and caps and cam for $125. I picked it outa the pile and rolled. I called my babbitt guy and set the ball rolling on getting it poured, machined, balanced and the crank counterweighted. He's a couple weeks out but I think the money is better spent on starting from scratch then on another motor that needs rebuilt.

[Brendan]

Kool, can you start a build thread?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Cool. Whose gonna do the babbitt for you??

[Tom Wesenberg]

It even looks like an original (uncut) engine number pad.

[Tinker]

Hey moving forward. Have to do what ya have to do. Keep it going.

[hotrod937]

Originally Posted by Brendan

Kool, can you start a build thread?

Isn't that what this is? Or you mean for the engine..

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Cool. Whose gonna do the babbitt for you??

So guy named Rod in Tifftin Ohio. He's gonna let me hang out and sweep up too!

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

It even looks like an original (uncut) engine number pad.

Yes. The original A numbers are clear as day

Originally Posted by Tinker

Hey moving forward. Have to do what ya have to do. Keep it going.

Got a couple weeks 'til my babbitt man is going to be ready for me. Still gonna try to do the bronze thing..

[hotrod937]

Took a chisel and carefully got the babbit out of the way. Filed it down flush. Put this guy in. Still got about 20 thou thrust. Gonna get some bronze filler rod and lay some beads on the thrust part of the bushing then mill it down to where I have 6 or 7 thou thrust. Dig it!

[hotrod937]

So the story about the other motor is a guy in the A club died and had like a million pounds of A parts that another old guy I know bought and now has. I went to buy that B motor and it had a weld repair which scared me away. I was looking around and saw two really clean blocks sitting. One had caps and one didn't. I bought the one with the caps and noticed it had a nice cross hatch hone job and had the deck milled. The babbit doesn't look cracked but is worn. I'm going to put my loose motor back in the car and have the other motor poured and set up. The crank is gonna get weld on counterweights and it's gonna be fresh and ready. Dig

[hotrod937]

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Originally Posted by dumb person

Babbitt is very soft, like solder, i can scrape it with my pocket knife, just scrape off enough to use for tinning the bronze thing i guess (like i said i have never done this bronze thing before). Ever see the big copper soldering iron that was used with a kerosene torch? i used that but had to take it to a place with an oxy' torch to heat it, all the kero' torches died of old age. Took about 5 minutes for the copper to go cold which was plenty of time to melt some old rod cap onto the thrust face. i then filed it to fit.

As for the cracks in the main i have seen some old posts on the internet where old guys glued the broken babbitt back on the caps when it fell out while doing maintenance to get them through until "next winter" so you might be able to live with those cracks as they are, meddling with them might make things worse.

Good luck!

I've the instert installed and still need some more adjustment. What is this tinning you speak of. I've got another block that I'm going to have poured so I can rob tons of babbitt off that. Do I heat the bronze to the melting temp of the babbitt then touch the babbitt to it? Does it stick well to it. Do I need to prep it with some sanding or flux? Could you explain this a bit? I've also got a TIG welder. Could I just lay some bronze beads on the thrust insert? Just not sure what to do here. Thanks

I've also got a Dana 30 carrier shim that fits perfectly in there and would dial in my thrust. This carrier shim is steel and would ride on the thrust of the crank. I would cut it in half and bend some tabs to ride under the cap as the shim is the same 10 thou as my main cap shims. I'd cut the main cap shims to accept the Dana 30 axle carrier shim. Would the steel shim ridding against the crank mar or damage the crank thrust area? The shim takes to a file but so does the crank.. The crank rings like a fordged unit when I tap it. Not sure though..

[dumb person]

If you are confident you can build up the face with bronze & machine it down a little, try it!

[hotrod937]

Well I know I can machine it down with my 1947 Jhead Bridgeport. Am I confident I can weld it? No. I know nothing about welding Bronze cept what I saw in the 3 min video I watched on weldingtipsandtricks. I did just get an HTP invertig 221 though. Can you tell me about this tinning process?

[dumb person]

Originally Posted by hotrod937

Can you tell me about this tinning process?

Just like soldering with flux but using babbitt. Lead solder will not take much pounding before it cracks. i guess you can bridgeport it after that. i suck at soldering so guess you would have more experience at it.

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by hotrod937

Well I know I can machine it down with my 1947 Jhead Bridgeport. Am I confident I can weld it? No. I know nothing about welding Bronze cept what I saw in the 3 min video I watched on weldingtipsandtricks. I did just get an HTP invertig 221 though. Can you tell me about this tinning process?

If you do that you will move your crank .040 back from where it should be. Why not build the back of the cap up .040. I would machine the cap for the have round bronze inserts. If you are a good machinist you can do that in a Brideport.

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by hotrod937

Took a chisel and carefully got the babbit out of the way. Filed it down flush. Put this guy in. Still got about 20 thou thrust. Gonna get some bronze filler rod and lay some beads on the thrust part of the bushing then mill it down to where I have 6 or 7 thou thrust. Dig it!

Looks good, do not forget to use sealer on that insert, when you put it in for good. If not it will leak between the insert and block.

[hotrod937]

Originally Posted by George Miller

If you do that you will move your crank .040 back from where it should be. Why not build the back of the cap up .040. I would machine the cap for the have round bronze inserts. If you are a good machinist you can do that in a Brideport.

I searched for these inserts you speak of and couldn't find anything except this thread. Can you link me for tell me more about what they are?

[Jazzjr]

Originally Posted by hotrod937

I searched for these inserts you speak of and couldn't find anything except this thread. Can you link me for tell me more about what they are?

Is this what you are looking For http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/1421




Rear Main Thrust

• This bronze thrust washer replaces the original A-6335 rear main seal that went up in the block. If the babbit on your old rear main bearing has cracked, this will now act as your thrust. Also used for inserted engines! U.S.A.
  Part NumberSpecificsPrice A-63341928-31 $43.00 / ea.

Or these http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/5356



These half circle shaped brass thrust washers are used when converting a babbitt style motor to modern inserts. You will need three of these per motor. U.S.A.
Part NumberSpecificsPrice B-63321932-34 $12.50 / ea.

[hotrod937]

The top one is what I have installed that I want to weld some bronze rod to and machine down to get in the 10 thou neighborhood down from 50 plus. This is only to get me through a couple months til my other motor is ready.

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by hotrod937

I searched for these inserts you speak of and couldn't find anything except this thread. Can you link me for tell me more about what they are?

Try Snyder's new cat.
A-6332 for A engine 13.50 each you would need two
B-6332 for the B engine 12.50 each you would need two pg A-119

Bratton's new new cat pg 41
Thrust washers for insert engines.
I only see the inserts for the A 8946 13.50 each.

You would put two in the block and one in the cap if you were putting in inserts. But I have fixed some leaking engine by doing what you are doing. You have to be careful to get them right in the cap to match the one in the block. I would not go as deep as the instruction say on the clutch side. take it out put it on the block. check how much clearance between crank thrust and block. Then finish machine cap. Also check the crank to see what the rear main length is. most have worn .010-.020. Now machine the rear thrust in. Stop and check by miking across the cap with the inserts in before it is to late. I hope this is clear because writing is not my strong suite.
George

[hotrod937]

I don't have inserts. I'm gonna pour new babbitt in my spare motor..

[hotrod937]

Couple things. I'm putting the motor back together.

1) With the bronze bushing in I've still got .020 thrust. I'm probably gonna lay some TIG bronze rod beads down and machine it down to where I have about 6 or 7 thou end play.

2) My Cam gear appears to be laminated but doesn't have a dot on it to tell me how to line it up. There also appears to be a slinger coving the face of my crank gear. There is a notch ground out of the slinger however I'm assuming it's where to line it up, am I assuming right? What do I do here? I don't have a degree wheel. I do have a new laminated cam gear with the dot. Could I install it and line it up with the notch in the slinger infront of the crank gear? Are the dowl holes in the cam gears offset so you can only install it one way? What if I'm a tooth off? How do I make sure to have ever thing in time? Also I have another cam out of another motor that appears to have a bit more lift. It has the laminated cam gear also with the timing dot. I don't have the head off and don't want to take it off. Can I swap cams with the head on. I do have a valve spring compressor that might work with a towel or something on the head and just hold the lifter up. Also is the spring pressure enough to marry the lifters to the cam as in normal flat tappet V8's or am I good to swap? How do I get this thing in time?

3) How do I make sure the new oil pump dist gear is also in time?

[Bob C]

Here is a picture Tom W posted showing the timing marks. The link will show the
thread about lining them up. https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...ght=crank+gear

Bob

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by hotrod937

Couple things. I'm putting the motor back together.

1) With the bronze bushing in I've still got .020 thrust. I'm probably gonna lay some TIG bronze rod beads down and machine it down to where I have about 6 or 7 thou end play.

2) My Cam gear appears to be laminated but doesn't have a dot on it to tell me how to line it up. There also appears to be a slinger coving the face of my crank gear. There is a notch ground out of the slinger however I'm assuming it's where to line it up, am I assuming right? What do I do here? I don't have a degree wheel. I do have a new laminated cam gear with the dot. Could I install it and line it up with the notch in the slinger infront of the crank gear? Are the dowl holes in the cam gears offset so you can only install it one way? What if I'm a tooth off? How do I make sure to have ever thing in time? Also I have another cam out of another motor that appears to have a bit more lift. It has the laminated cam gear also with the timing dot. I don't have the head off and don't want to take it off. Can I swap cams with the head on. I do have a valve spring compressor that might work with a towel or something on the head and just hold the lifter up. Also is the spring pressure enough to marry the lifters to the cam as in normal flat tappet V8's or am I good to swap? How do I get this thing in time?

3) How do I make sure the new oil pump dist gear is also in time?

The cam gear lines up by aligning the dimple that the timing pin goes into with a dot on the crank gear just off the key.

The oil pump drive can go anywhere. That timing is resolved when you time the distributor.

[37 ford man]

I have a stock model a frame came out of a restored car if your interested painted gloss black $400

[hotrod937]

Thanks 37 Fordman for the amazing frame!

[37 ford man]

your welcome enjoy keep in touch still need windshield frame ir you know of one

[hotrod937]

I gotta say I'm really starting to get very angry. After ruining the brass thrust bushing trying to weld on it I tried to replace the broken cam gear. The nut tool and cam tool thing I ordered are useless, don't work or fit. Edit: after looking online it appears the cam nut tool is for a T. I always however review my purchase and specifically go over the dates to make sure I'm getting A stuff. I found a way to loosen and tighten the cam nut so I jump into putting it on. I didn't get to an easy 30 foot pounds before the way I was holding the spinning cam broke the brand new gear.

[hotrod937]

Okay, my anger has calmed down. I've just been building so much stuff for other people and when I go to work on my own junk I hit brick walls. After destroying the new cam gear, I had one good gear left over from the other A motor. I didn't want to touch it as to break a 3rd one and be waiting days for more parts spending more wasted money. I called my buddy over to handle it. He got the gear off the other cam and installed it on my cam. Now I can put the motor back together. Then in a day or so put the old engine in the car with new thrust and cam gear and hopefully it doesn't pour oil out and only leaks enough that I can drive it around town for a couple months til the other A motor gets fully built from scratch.

[bogdonj]

What did you use to get the nut off?

[hotrod937]

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We put large vise grips on the flat of the odd cam nut and ran a pry bar through the middle of the teeth. We gently held the cam on the base blank and torqued it down. I'll take a pic of it tomorrow..

[Itchy-Pit]

I like that fact you come across as humble but not timid. I've had all kinds of cars. I'll share this with you. My chip free - every nut and bolt painted, polished, or coated cars are beautiful, but they are not nearly as much fun as the beater's I can take anywhere anytime in any weather and park right next to a new car in a parking lot. Get it reliable, and DRIVE IT! I'll enjoy watching and reading all about your adventures. Need anything? Shoot me a email and I will see if I can't scrounge it up to help out. -Dennis

[hotrod937]

Thanks a lot IP. Update. I've got the engine bottom end all buttoned up cotter pins and all. I'm putting on the oil pan now. It appears that the 2nd bronze thrust main gives me roughly 15 thou end play. I've cleaned everything out and hopefully she doesn't leak too much oil. Still have to post the pic of how I got the timing gear off and on.

I'd ask how to do the oil pain and main gaskets but I'm about to read up and get it done. Hopefully sunday I'll have the motor in. I'm assuming that if I put the motor on tdc via the hole in the front cover pining the divit in the timing gear and then orientate the dist drive so that it points the rotor at the #1 cyl, that should be sufficient enough to have the dist in visual time.

[Tom Wesenberg]

"I'm assuming that if I put the motor on tdc via the hole in the front cover pining the divit in the timing gear and then orientate the dist drive so that it points the rotor at the #1 cyl, that should be sufficient enough to have the dist in visual time. "

The rotor should be point towards the right headlight when the timing pin is in the dimple.

[hotrod937]

Couple things. First here's how I got the cam gear nut off
Take a sturdy set of vise grips and get them on there..



Next put a pry bar in there and turn. Hopefully it comes off. I also put some vise grips on the base circle of the cam to hold it. Didn't know the torque spec but lock tited it on there..

[hotrod937]

Now I've got the pan on and have this spring that I think cam out of the rear area of the motor where the bell housing is but am not sure. I put the smaller spring in the front cover where the cam is. Then there's the dist drive spring which is large and there was a spring bolted to the bottom of the oil pump. The tension on the mystery spring is very high.. Where does this thing go?

[[email protected]]

http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/485

Sure looks like one of the springs that are part of the tie rods.

[James Rogers]

That spring goes in the steering, not the motor.

[hotrod937]

I thought it came from the bell housing area. Might be a clutch spring?

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by hotrod937

I thought it came from the bell housing area. Might be a clutch spring?

Yes, it probably came out of the center of the clutch disc. Does your's now have 5 springs, instead of 6?

[hotrod937]

Well the mystery spring is not part of the clutch. Where does it go?

#2 Which way does the clutch pressure plate go in and how do I keep it centered when installing the engine? Do I need to pull the trans? Do I put them on the input shaft and then work the bolts from the crack? Not sure what to do here, thanks...

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by hotrod937

Well the mystery spring is not part of the clutch. Where does it go?

#2 Which way does the clutch pressure plate go in and how do I keep it centered when installing the engine? Do I need to pull the trans? Do I put them on the input shaft and then work the bolts from the crack? Not sure what to do here, thanks...

The only thing I can think of for the spring is the clutch disc center or a steering end on the tie rod or drag link.

The thick offset part in the clutch disc center MUST face the rear of the car, or it would mess up the flywheel mounting bolts. I've used my fingers and eyes to center the disc and had good luck, but the best way is to use a pilot shaft. They are cheap from one of the Model A partshouses.

[hotrod937]

Did some work today on the car.