The Ford Barn

dsdmorrow · 03-22-2019, 01:40 PM

I am new to the Model A hobby. I bought this early running 1928 Model A, 6XXX serial number as a retirement project. The starter is not engaging all the time so I removed the starter to inspect the bendix and I find that it appears to have a Model T type drive without the spring bendix as almost all Model A manuals show. The car has many other items that point to the early manufacture. I am investigating how to repair / rebuild the starter drive so that in engages reliably. I have read that there are several ways to improve the starter drive but I am not yet ready to tear the engine / transmission / clutch down for rebuild so I am looking for help on how to repair what I have. i am sure that many of you have experience in this topic so I am reaching out for some help and advice. Thank you.

ryanheacox · 03-22-2019, 02:00 PM

Welcome to the forum! 6xxx dates it to Jan. 1928, you've got quite an early car which has a lot of unique parts (1/2" Abell Starter, multi-disc clutch, left hand parking brake lever etc.). I'm definitely no early 28 expert but there are plenty of guys here who can help. Does your car have the front engine mount built into the cross member?

frank55a · 03-22-2019, 02:07 PM

I believe what you have is an Abel starter gear. The shaft is a 1/2 inch shaft, therefore a later 28 bendix should work (not the 5/8 inch bendix). This 1/2 bendix is not reproduced or carried by the dealers. Bert's in Colorado might have an original. I did have a couple but they are gone.

dsdmorrow · 03-22-2019, 02:10 PM

ryanheacox: the front of the engine does attach to the frame cross member.

dsdmorrow · 03-22-2019, 02:13 PM

frank55a: Thank you. I have been reading and there is something about the newer bendix / drive having interference with the clutch and flywheel since mine has the multidisk clutch. .

ryanheacox · 03-22-2019, 02:25 PM

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I think I remember reading in the service bulletins about a "service" bendix for replacement of abell starter drives. This might be the same one frank55a is talking about. I'll have to see if I can find that info tonight. It's always neat to see someone with an early car that hasn't been updated.

Just spitballing but maybe the Model T guys would know more about how to get your abell starter drive working?

dsdmorrow · 03-22-2019, 02:43 PM

ryanheacox: Thank you. I want to see what I can find with the Model A guys first. Based on the initial reading I have done referencing the Model T drive, there are other issues to consider and I am not knowledgeable enough now to keep all of the technical items straight.

F.M. · 03-22-2019, 04:27 PM

Well #1 you could have bad teeth on the drive end or #2 your flywheel has some bad teeth also..#3 It could have a bent starter shaft, very common on that starter.. # 4 Does the starter have its original Shim in place ??. You can get a later made Bendix for it, but you still need the special spring also.

ryanheacox · 03-22-2019, 04:44 PM

Page 303-305 of the service bulletins talk about the special bendix drive A-11350-DR and how to adapt it to the later starter.

frank55a · 03-23-2019, 01:13 PM

FM's points #2 and 3 are very good. I have found this to be the case on occasion. Many do not understand this, but when the engine is stopped it will almost stop in the same place, therefore when starting the benbix will engage the ring gear in the same place thus wearing the same teeth. I'm not sure if the early 28 ring gear is the same as the later, but if not and the teeth are worn you can usually pull the flywheel and rotate the gear a few inches to clear the worn spot.

katy · 03-23-2019, 04:29 PM

Quote:

I removed the starter to inspect the bendix and I find that it appears to have a Model T type drive without the spring bendix

I've never seen a Model T starter bendix w/out a spring.

F.M. · 03-23-2019, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katy

I've never seen a Model T starter bendix w/out a spring.

Have you ever seen an Abel Starter Drive on a Model A ??

katy · 03-24-2019, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F.M.

Have you ever seen an Abel Starter Drive on a Model A ??

Not that I can recall. What's that got to do with Model T starters?

Bob C · 03-24-2019, 11:13 AM

Here is a picture of and Abel drive Tom W posted.

Bob

dsdmorrow · 03-24-2019, 07:07 PM

The picture Bob C posted is the same as my starter. Can the drive be rebuilt or must I update to a replacement drive?

dsdmorrow · 03-24-2019, 07:09 PM

Sorry, in addition the ring gear is good. Not sure if I have an issue with the motor speed being enough to engage the drive or the drive having too much drag. Any thoughts?

Benson · 03-24-2019, 10:54 PM

If there is grease inside "bendix" it will stick and not engage.

The colder the temperature the worse it will be.

Clean with solvent and air dry.

use very light weight oil like "3 in one" oil if any...

Check to be sure shaft is not bent (most common problem).
remove starter and spin to see if it "wiggles"

Grease that has gotten hard or cold also effects "standard" Bendix starters.

dsdmorrow · 03-25-2019, 08:00 AM

Benson, thank you. When it warms up and stops raining long enough to work in the garage I will check the shaft and clean the mechanism.

woofa.express · 03-25-2019, 01:58 PM

Starter motor.

I too had that problem however the reason may well have been different. I was running a 6V starter in a 12v conversion and I was concerned about the severe impact that was made on engagement. I converted the starter to12V by changing the field coils. It made1 start and I was delighted at the moderate even gentle engagement. That was it, the only start I got. I removed the starter and figured the bendix had become jammed too tightly in the home position. So had it ground plus put steel spacer washers on shaft to prevent it going all the way home and jamming. Again got 1 start. I then figured the double voltage had caused the armature to spin so fast that this situation didn’t develop. I am now about to change the armature for a 5/8 shaft with a new bendix retaining my new field coils.
There is a new type of starter which costs about the same as I’ve spent so far and mostly wasted. I did not know of it when all of this started. Pun unintentional.

woofa.express · 03-25-2019, 02:08 PM

Re starter

I converted my Tourer to 12V. All except the starter motor. Each engagement was severe and I busted 2 shafts. I replaced the field coils to12V and the car started well but only once. The bendix would jam. I packed itand again got only one start, same problem.
Contributor to this forum “Synchro” sold and installed a serviceable half inch compotator and bendix. We struck other problems. After much time spent he had it going and tested on his car. This morning, when daylight arrives, I will install it back on my Tourer.
I must acknowledge the help I received from Synchro and this is an expression of gratitude.

03-22-2019, 02:10 PM	#4
dsdmorrow Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2019 Posts: 7	Re: Early 1928 Starter ryanheacox: the front of the engine does attach to the frame cross member.

03-22-2019, 02:13 PM	#5
dsdmorrow Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2019 Posts: 7	Re: Early 1928 Starter frank55a: Thank you. I have been reading and there is something about the newer bendix / drive having interference with the clutch and flywheel since mine has the multidisk clutch. .

03-22-2019, 02:25 PM	#6
ryanheacox Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Northwest CT Posts: 1,092	Re: Early 1928 Starter Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) I think I remember reading in the service bulletins about a "service" bendix for replacement of abell starter drives. This might be the same one frank55a is talking about. I'll have to see if I can find that info tonight. It's always neat to see someone with an early car that hasn't been updated. Just spitballing but maybe the Model T guys would know more about how to get your abell starter drive working?

03-22-2019, 02:43 PM	#7
dsdmorrow Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2019 Posts: 7	Re: Early 1928 Starter ryanheacox: Thank you. I want to see what I can find with the Model A guys first. Based on the initial reading I have done referencing the Model T drive, there are other issues to consider and I am not knowledgeable enough now to keep all of the technical items straight.

03-22-2019, 04:27 PM	#8
F.M. BANNED Join Date: Sep 2017 Posts: 385	Re: Early 1928 Starter Well #1 you could have bad teeth on the drive end or #2 your flywheel has some bad teeth also..#3 It could have a bent starter shaft, very common on that starter.. # 4 Does the starter have its original Shim in place ??. You can get a later made Bendix for it, but you still need the special spring also. Last edited by F.M.; 03-22-2019 at 05:12 PM.

03-22-2019, 01:40 PM	#1
dsdmorrow Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2019 Posts: 7	Early 1928 Starter I am new to the Model A hobby. I bought this early running 1928 Model A, 6XXX serial number as a retirement project. The starter is not engaging all the time so I removed the starter to inspect the bendix and I find that it appears to have a Model T type drive without the spring bendix as almost all Model A manuals show. The car has many other items that point to the early manufacture. I am investigating how to repair / rebuild the starter drive so that in engages reliably. I have read that there are several ways to improve the starter drive but I am not yet ready to tear the engine / transmission / clutch down for rebuild so I am looking for help on how to repair what I have. i am sure that many of you have experience in this topic so I am reaching out for some help and advice. Thank you.

03-22-2019, 02:00 PM	#2
ryanheacox Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Northwest CT Posts: 1,092	Re: Early 1928 Starter Welcome to the forum! 6xxx dates it to Jan. 1928, you've got quite an early car which has a lot of unique parts (1/2" Abell Starter, multi-disc clutch, left hand parking brake lever etc.). I'm definitely no early 28 expert but there are plenty of guys here who can help. Does your car have the front engine mount built into the cross member?

03-22-2019, 02:07 PM	#3
frank55a Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 934	Re: Early 1928 Starter I believe what you have is an Abel starter gear. The shaft is a 1/2 inch shaft, therefore a later 28 bendix should work (not the 5/8 inch bendix). This 1/2 bendix is not reproduced or carried by the dealers. Bert's in Colorado might have an original. I did have a couple but they are gone.

03-22-2019, 04:44 PM	#9
ryanheacox Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Northwest CT Posts: 1,092	Re: Early 1928 Starter Page 303-305 of the service bulletins talk about the special bendix drive A-11350-DR and how to adapt it to the later starter.

03-23-2019, 01:13 PM	#10
frank55a Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 934	Re: Early 1928 Starter FM's points #2 and 3 are very good. I have found this to be the case on occasion. Many do not understand this, but when the engine is stopped it will almost stop in the same place, therefore when starting the benbix will engage the ring gear in the same place thus wearing the same teeth. I'm not sure if the early 28 ring gear is the same as the later, but if not and the teeth are worn you can usually pull the flywheel and rotate the gear a few inches to clear the worn spot.

03-24-2019, 07:07 PM	#15
dsdmorrow Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2019 Posts: 7	Re: Early 1928 Starter The picture Bob C posted is the same as my starter. Can the drive be rebuilt or must I update to a replacement drive?

03-24-2019, 07:09 PM	#16
dsdmorrow Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2019 Posts: 7	Re: Early 1928 Starter Sorry, in addition the ring gear is good. Not sure if I have an issue with the motor speed being enough to engage the drive or the drive having too much drag. Any thoughts?

03-24-2019, 10:54 PM	#17
Benson Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,594	Re: Early 1928 Starter If there is grease inside "bendix" it will stick and not engage. The colder the temperature the worse it will be. Clean with solvent and air dry. use very light weight oil like "3 in one" oil if any... Check to be sure shaft is not bent (most common problem). remove starter and spin to see if it "wiggles" Grease that has gotten hard or cold also effects "standard" Bendix starters.

03-25-2019, 08:00 AM	#18
dsdmorrow Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2019 Posts: 7	Re: Early 1928 Starter Benson, thank you. When it warms up and stops raining long enough to work in the garage I will check the shaft and clean the mechanism.

03-25-2019, 01:58 PM	#19
woofa.express Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Tocumwal, NSW, Australia Posts: 1,747	Re: Early 1928 Starter Starter motor. I too had that problem however the reason may well have been different. I was running a 6V starter in a 12v conversion and I was concerned about the severe impact that was made on engagement. I converted the starter to12V by changing the field coils. It made1 start and I was delighted at the moderate even gentle engagement. That was it, the only start I got. I removed the starter and figured the bendix had become jammed too tightly in the home position. So had it ground plus put steel spacer washers on shaft to prevent it going all the way home and jamming. Again got 1 start. I then figured the double voltage had caused the armature to spin so fast that this situation didn’t develop. I am now about to change the armature for a 5/8 shaft with a new bendix retaining my new field coils. There is a new type of starter which costs about the same as I’ve spent so far and mostly wasted. I did not know of it when all of this started. Pun unintentional. __________________ I know many things, But I don't know everything, Sometimes I forget things. And there are times when I have a long memory.

03-25-2019, 02:08 PM	#20
woofa.express Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Tocumwal, NSW, Australia Posts: 1,747	Re: Early 1928 Starter Re starter I converted my Tourer to 12V. All except the starter motor. Each engagement was severe and I busted 2 shafts. I replaced the field coils to12V and the car started well but only once. The bendix would jam. I packed itand again got only one start, same problem. Contributor to this forum “Synchro” sold and installed a serviceable half inch compotator and bendix. We struck other problems. After much time spent he had it going and tested on his car. This morning, when daylight arrives, I will install it back on my Tourer. I must acknowledge the help I received from Synchro and this is an expression of gratitude. __________________ I know many things, But I don't know everything, Sometimes I forget things. And there are times when I have a long memory. Last edited by woofa.express; 03-25-2019 at 02:16 PM.