type A suffix A trans fluid

[fordor41]

have been searching for type A suffix A fluid. I can find nowhere where it is sold. anyone know who sells it? Is type F compatible? 1960 ford 2 speed. Not an original dip stick so no info there. Did a search here and came up with type F,A dextron!!

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by fordor41

have been searching for type A suffix A fluid. I can find nowhere where it is sold. anyone know who sells it? Is type F compatible? 1960 ford 2 speed. Not an original dip stick so no info there. Did a search here and came up with type F,A dextron!!

I understand TYPE A SUFFIX A is still available from NAPA, but the service replacement is DEXRON iii.

When automatic transmissions first appeared in standard production models in the early 1950s, they used common engine or gear oil. As the transmissions themselves were refined, they began using Type A fluid in the late 1950s. Type A evolved into Type A Suffix A, and then into Dexron; however, each of these iterations relied on a sperm whale oil additive to act as a friction modifier, at least until the use of whale oil was outlawed in the early 1970s.

Dexron II became the original-equipment transmission oil in 1972, but the manufacturer encountered problems with corrosion to the solder joints in the transmission oil cooler and added a corrosion inhibitor in 1975; the new fluid was called Dexron II-D. This was later reformulated to Dexron II-E when another additive was included to reduce water absorption. All GM vehicles used Dexron II-E, and it supersedes any previous recommendations for Type A, Type A Suffix A and any of the previous Dexron requirements.

Dexron III became the new GM standard in 1993, and was used in all cars and light trucks (except Saturn) until 2006. It was obsoleted in favor of Dexron III-H

SOURCE- https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2015/0...manufacturers/

[wbedwards]

It might be heresy, but I have run type f in my 2 speed '59 for years and it seems to shift just fine.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by wbedwards

It might be heresy, but I have run type f in my 2 speed '59 for years and it seems to shift just fine.

Not hearsay, fact. If TYPE F is used in a DEXRON application, it will give firmer shifts.

Rule of thumb-

OK to use F in a DEXRON TRANS, but not DEXRON in an F TRANS.

[rotorwrench]

Type F was developed to work with the old Borg Warner design transmissions up through the FMX and replace the whale oil based type A. Sometimes the type F is referred to as type F/A by some marketers of the product. I wouldn't recommend Dextron or even Mercon product for those old transmissions. The Type F has just the right balance of friction modifiers and conditioners to get proper clutch friction and valve body function and well as anti foaming & corrosion protection.

[fordor41]

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Thanks for the input guys. I'll go with type F.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by fordor41

Thanks for the input guys. I'll go with type F.

Is this make-up fluid or are you servicing?

[rotorwrench]

I figured I would add this even if it may not be relevant. Type A was developed after the war and came into use in 1949 for the hydramatics GM was making. Type A used treated whale oil as the friction modifier and I guess it worked OK at least for a few years since all the manufacturers used it. GM changed their formulation in 1957 to the Type A-A (suffix A) when they started playing with the friction modifiers and other additives. All of the manufacturers were informed that the whale oil use was going to be banned around 1966 or so. They all had to come up with other specifications to meet their needs. Ford came up with type F beginning use in 1967 to replace all previous atf products with whale oil for their design of transmissions to still function reliably. GM developed the Dexron shortly thereafter to supply their product designs.

They have now all evolved to use the synthetics as much as possible. They are going for a full life service type atf and many may not even have a dip stick at some point. Older transmissions have seals that were never intended to work with synthetic oils so they aren't really compatible with any of the older transmissions prior to their introduction. Try the stuff at your own risk. It may or may not work well on any pre-synthetic oil type transmission.

[fordor41]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Is this make-up fluid or are you servicing?

want to top it off when necessary. The manual I got with the car said Type A Suffix A which I never heard of.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by fordor41

...want to top it off when necessary. The manual I got with the car said Type A Suffix A which I never heard of.

DEXRON III would probably the safest make-up at this point (IMO) TYPE F can be retro-used and deliver a firmer shift. If going to TYPE F a flush should be performed and with the age and possible condition of the trans, may damage it.

[rotorwrench]

The type A-A (suffix A) was the first alteration of Type A in 1957 for GM specs. Ford may have used it too for a time. The next alteration came in the early 60s with type B. This would have been around the time the Falcon & Comet cars were coming on line with the two speed aluminum case Ford-O-Matic (not to be confused with the early 3-speed cast iron case type).

All of the Ford transmissions are similar in the type of clutch packs they used in this era which were all metallic bronze & steel plate types. Type F was developed in 1967 to work with all of these old Ford automatic transmissions to keep the slippage to a minimum with no sulphated whale oil additive. Needless to say, there is no real Type A or A-A ATF made anymore. I would stick with type F. It was formulated for all the pre 1979 transmissions except the C6. Somewhere in there, Ford made a whole new spec for the C6 and that evolved into Mercon. The C6 had more modern clutch pack materials.

[KULTULZ]

MERCON is the FORD marketing name for DEXRON. There are many different formulations for either car maker, GM and FORD.

DEXRON III is the service replacement fluid for TYPE A. TYPE A SUFFIX A was the service replacement for TYPE A. It is a progression.

TYPE F was developed to use with FORD's usage of asbestos friction materials beginning in the 1967 model run. It's requirement was later phased out (unless a asbestos friction material transmission still in service) as they were required to drop asbestos use during the seventies.

If a TYPE F trans is overhauled, it will revert back to DEXRON usage unless a firmer shift is desired (asbestos discs no longer available unless NOS).

Think B&M QUICK-SHIFT FLUID. That's all it is.

TYPE F is still marketed by FORD as it is also called out for many PS SYSTEMS.

TYPE A is still available, but I wouldn't want to use it in a transmission. It is obsolete.

[KULTULZ]

... uh ... that's

B&M TRICK-SHIFT ATF

B&M Trick Shift fluid is the easiest way to firm up your transmission's shift performance. Not an additive, this safe and effective blend of extreme pressure agents and foam inhibitors will produce a noticeable shift improvement when you completely replace your existing fluid. It meets and exceeds Type F requirements, and is available in conventional and synthetic formulas.

[rotorwrench]

The use of sulfated whale oil was banned in 1970 so there is no real type A fluid. Whatever they market now in an unknown but I can guarantee it will have no whale oil in it. Type F was developed to function with all of the previous Ford transmissions with exception to the C6.

Ford developed type CJ fluid for the C6 since it was their first major step away from the Borg Warner design theory. The type CJ evolved in to the Mercon spec a few years down the pike.

The manufacturer's controlled the lubricant specs for their transmissions and oil companies had to get the rights to produce these types until the specs were obsolete. After they are obsolete, there was no manufacturer control over the end result. Companies that make these products can name it whatever they want and spec it to meet any spec they choose but they get real creative about how they describe it on the package to keep them from getting into legal trouble over liability problems.


Type A was replaced by Type A-A. Type A-A was replaced by Type B. Type B was replaced by Dexron, Dexron was replaced by Dexron II. Dexon II was replaced by Dexron III. This is closer to the truth about changes GM went on specs. Dexron was GMs first attempt at using friction modifiers other than sulphated whale oil and it didn't take long to change it to Dexron II so it still needed some work.

Ford & GM developed their specs for different reasons but eventually they all had transmission designs that were on the same basic page so they became compatible but they are still a bit different and propriatary. Dexron III and Mercon are both superseded specs so they are blended how ever each company wants to blend them now.

[KULTULZ]

Well actually, the C4 (1964) was the first FORD designed trans. TYPE F was not retro use to pre-1967.

FORD bought the BW design and introduced the FMX in 1967 (it's own re-design). Again, TYPE F was not used much after the asbestos ban.

TYPE A is still available but contains no whale oil as it's use was banned. It has other uses than TRANS FLUID.

EDIT - Brief FORD ATF Synopsis

Ford first produced its own transmission fluid formulation in 1967, referred to as Type F or Type FA. The name comes from Ford’s specification number for the fluid, ESW M2C33-F. This fluid was used in all Ford transmissions until 1977 and most Ford transmissions until 1980.

The development of the C5 transmission in 1981 brought a new specification called Type H, named after the specification ESP M2C166-H. About the same time, Ford C6 transmissions upgraded to a new formulation, ESW M2C138-CJ or Type CJ. These transmissions cannot use Type F/FA; however, Dexron II could be substituted. Type H eventually was reformulated and received anti-shudder additives. It was then renamed Mercon, and it was an acceptable retrofit for both Type H and Type CJ and became the new Ford standard fluid from 1987-2007.

Mercon V was introduced in 2008 and supersedes any requirements for H, CJ or Mercon. It does not replace Type F or Type FA, but is often marketed in retail establishments now as Dexron III/Mercon V and takes the place of any previous non-Type F/FA requirements.

Mercon SP was prevalent in 2005-2007 six-speed automatics and has additional additives over Mercon V. SP can be substituted in any Mercon V recommendation. Ford also produced its own Mercon CVT fluid from 2005-2007; however, all aftermarket CVT-specific fluids meet the Ford requirement, no matter who the manufacturer.

The year 2008 saw the release of Mercon LV, a synthetic-based fluid that is not compatible with any previous Mercon specifications. Transmissions requiring LV include the rear-wheel-drive Ford 5R110 Torque Shift and 4R75/WE transmissions, as well as the front-wheel-drive 4F27E, AW ECVT, 6F50/55N and the 6F35N.

The above is quite accurate to FORD ATF history (IMO).

SOURCE- https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2015/0...manufacturers/

You make a rebuttal and we will leave it alone. OK?

[rotorwrench]

The C4 was a new design but a lot of the old PCT series small case cruise-o-matic theory is in there. The small case cruise-o was used by Ford in applications clear up into 1966 so they could keep up with sales demand. They kept the shift pattern the same. A lot of info on the net puts the C4 as a take over transmission in 1964 but it was used in heavy duty applications where the cruise-o was used in the rest just like the C6 was when it came on line in 1966. I think all of the manufacturers were worried about the whale oil ban so Fords new designs would hedge there bets on warranty concerns if the new fluids didn't work out. Ford was also getting away from the all metallic clutch packs. Ford had a lot of cars still on the road that needed a new fluid spec and it had to work with metallic bronze/steel clutch packs so the type F would give a firm enough shift to reduce possibility of slippage. Slippage is the death of the metallic plates.


The C6 was an all new design for 1966 heavy duty applications so Ford made a new spec for it. Is Type CJ similar to Dexron or is it the other way around? This was all in that time frame where they were experimenting with new fluid specs for the impending whale oil ban. Ford would never have made anything to copy a GM spec or they would have never heard the end of it from the GM sector. I remember the type CJ fluid but a lot of folks just used the Dexron II . The C6 was such a good transmission that it might have lasted 5-years or more without putting any ATF in there at all and the C4 was about as good for its applications. By that time, all you could find was Type F & Dexron II.


I always used Type F in the cruise-o-matics and C4 transmissions that I've had back in that time frame. The C4 was a snappy shifter and even more so if you put a B&M shift kit in there. I don't pay much attention to the modern specs since most of my later cars & trucks seldom need any oil added. I only worry about the old cars from 1949 through around 1966.


Auto trans fluid can be as contentious a subject as gear oil for a Borg Warner overdrive transmission and it's all because the specifications they had back then are obsolete and harder or impossible to source now days.