The Ford Barn

Steve Plucker · 10-04-2019, 08:55 PM

What is the rule of thumb when it comes to riveting steel rivets?

If I were riveting a 1/4 inch diameter steel rivet to connect two pieces of metal together...would/should the shank of the rivet that is protruding out of the hole be 1-1/2 times the diameter of the 1/4 inch rivet? In other words the length of the shank of the rivet protruding out of the hole should be 3/8 inch in length?

Thank you.

Pluck

Neil Wilson · 10-04-2019, 09:23 PM

From http://www.bigflatsrivet.com/ - PDF - Instructions for installing rivets ¼ inch diameter and larger.

The length of the rivet is determined by the thicknesses of the material being held together. To make a round head you will need about 1 ½ times the diameter of the rivet. If you are using ¼ inch diameter rivet, you will need a rivet 3/8 inch longer than the combined thicknesses of the metal you are holding together. This should be used as a starting point, you may find that slightly more or less will produce a better head.

Steve Plucker · 10-04-2019, 09:38 PM

Thanks Neil...that is what I thought.

Pluck

Bob Bidonde · 10-05-2019, 08:10 AM

You need to be sure that the rivet will expand enough to fill the hole completely. Use a high energy rivet squeezer, or a 3X or better rivet gun. If you cannot get these tools, use heat and make the rivet cherry red, then buck it. The bucking bar should be against the tail of the rivet.

Ford used a waffle pattern bucking bar / squeezer anvil to prevent slipping off of the rivet.

rotorwrench · 10-05-2019, 09:02 AM

A 5X would be better or larger if you can find one that's affordable. 1 1/2 the diameter is the standard for aircraft industry too. Exceptions are only for monel steel rivets with perfectly sized holes. One day, I'd like to try and fabricate a squeezer but it would have to use a hydraulic jack. Hand squeezers max out with 5/32" aluminum rivets so they would be too light a duty to squeeze anything as big as a frame rivet even if heated. Ford used great big hydro pneumatic set ups back in the day.

When hot riveting, you can use the hammer on the buck tail side or the head. The sets would generally be fabricated to round off the buck tail so it can go either way. If you ever watch an old movie of a steel girder crew, they hammer the buck tail most of the time. It just depends on clearance and whether a rivet gun will fit in the spot or not. waffles were used mostly on the smaller body rivets. They didn't want to damage the body. Frame rivets are rounded on both sides for the most part.

The procedure in the Big Flats instructions is pretty good.

BRENT in 10-uh-C · 10-05-2019, 02:22 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

A 5X would be better or larger if you can find one that's affordable.

I thought the correct size for 1/4" steel rivets was a 4X. Doesn't too large of a driver compact the head and not the shank?

While we are on the topic of rivets, does anyone have any feedback on induction heat guns? I am in the market for one at the shop, -and one of the uses is to heat Model-A frame rivets that have already been installed & set, and I want to heat them to re-buck them tighter. Using a pencil tipped torch now.

rotorwrench · 10-05-2019, 03:17 PM

I use two different rivet guns. One is an old Cleco 3X and the other is a Cleco 5X. The number is basically related to the length of throw. The hammers inside are basically the same size. I use the 3X for aluminum rivets up thru 5/32 (AD hard aluminum not A soft) and monels up thru 1/8". I use the 5X for all larger rivets and drivers as well as other air hammer tooling. There are much larger ones with larger diameter hammers inside but they are mostly for industrial steel work.

I don't know of a hard rule on what size works best. A lot is about the fit into the work performance. I've used the short 2X guns so as to fit in between ribs in close quarters of the belly of an aircraft. They work on smaller rivets but sound like a buzz saw due to the short stroke. The longer ones don't fit as well in tight spaces but they hit harder with less pressure applied. I like to drive a rivet with the least amount strokes possible so that they don't work harden too much.

Induction heater coils like the bolt buster work OK but the good kits are up there around 500 bucks in price for the more complete set ups. The really fast working ones are likely twice that much. It certainly will keep the flame away from the project. If worried about fire like next to a fuel tank, they would be a lot safer way to go than a torch. They would be a lot easier to set aside while getting the air hammer ready too. That's where speed counts unless you have a partner in the process to take better advantage of the short window of opportunity.

10-04-2019, 08:55 PM	#1
Steve Plucker BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Walla Walla, Washington USA Posts: 6,066	Riveting steel rivets... What is the rule of thumb when it comes to riveting steel rivets? If I were riveting a 1/4 inch diameter steel rivet to connect two pieces of metal together...would/should the shank of the rivet that is protruding out of the hole be 1-1/2 times the diameter of the 1/4 inch rivet? In other words the length of the shank of the rivet protruding out of the hole should be 3/8 inch in length? Thank you. Pluck

10-04-2019, 09:23 PM	#2
Neil Wilson Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 559	Re: Riveting steel rivets... From http://www.bigflatsrivet.com/ - PDF - Instructions for installing rivets ¼ inch diameter and larger. The length of the rivet is determined by the thicknesses of the material being held together. To make a round head you will need about 1 ½ times the diameter of the rivet. If you are using ¼ inch diameter rivet, you will need a rivet 3/8 inch longer than the combined thicknesses of the metal you are holding together. This should be used as a starting point, you may find that slightly more or less will produce a better head. __________________ [email protected] - email contact https://aafords.com Ford Model AA Truck Club @ aafords.com

10-04-2019, 09:38 PM	#3
Steve Plucker BANNED Join Date: May 2010 Location: Walla Walla, Washington USA Posts: 6,066	Re: Riveting steel rivets... Thanks Neil...that is what I thought. Pluck

10-05-2019, 08:10 AM	#4
Bob Bidonde Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 3,463	Re: Riveting steel rivets... You need to be sure that the rivet will expand enough to fill the hole completely. Use a high energy rivet squeezer, or a 3X or better rivet gun. If you cannot get these tools, use heat and make the rivet cherry red, then buck it. The bucking bar should be against the tail of the rivet. Ford used a waffle pattern bucking bar / squeezer anvil to prevent slipping off of the rivet. __________________ Bob Bidonde

10-05-2019, 09:02 AM	#5
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,422	Re: Riveting steel rivets... A 5X would be better or larger if you can find one that's affordable. 1 1/2 the diameter is the standard for aircraft industry too. Exceptions are only for monel steel rivets with perfectly sized holes. One day, I'd like to try and fabricate a squeezer but it would have to use a hydraulic jack. Hand squeezers max out with 5/32" aluminum rivets so they would be too light a duty to squeeze anything as big as a frame rivet even if heated. Ford used great big hydro pneumatic set ups back in the day. When hot riveting, you can use the hammer on the buck tail side or the head. The sets would generally be fabricated to round off the buck tail so it can go either way. If you ever watch an old movie of a steel girder crew, they hammer the buck tail most of the time. It just depends on clearance and whether a rivet gun will fit in the spot or not. waffles were used mostly on the smaller body rivets. They didn't want to damage the body. Frame rivets are rounded on both sides for the most part. The procedure in the Big Flats instructions is pretty good. Last edited by rotorwrench; 10-05-2019 at 09:15 AM.

10-05-2019, 03:17 PM	#7
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,422	Re: Riveting steel rivets... I use two different rivet guns. One is an old Cleco 3X and the other is a Cleco 5X. The number is basically related to the length of throw. The hammers inside are basically the same size. I use the 3X for aluminum rivets up thru 5/32 (AD hard aluminum not A soft) and monels up thru 1/8". I use the 5X for all larger rivets and drivers as well as other air hammer tooling. There are much larger ones with larger diameter hammers inside but they are mostly for industrial steel work. I don't know of a hard rule on what size works best. A lot is about the fit into the work performance. I've used the short 2X guns so as to fit in between ribs in close quarters of the belly of an aircraft. They work on smaller rivets but sound like a buzz saw due to the short stroke. The longer ones don't fit as well in tight spaces but they hit harder with less pressure applied. I like to drive a rivet with the least amount strokes possible so that they don't work harden too much. Induction heater coils like the bolt buster work OK but the good kits are up there around 500 bucks in price for the more complete set ups. The really fast working ones are likely twice that much. It certainly will keep the flame away from the project. If worried about fire like next to a fuel tank, they would be a lot safer way to go than a torch. They would be a lot easier to set aside while getting the air hammer ready too. That's where speed counts unless you have a partner in the process to take better advantage of the short window of opportunity.