Crankshaft in New Rebuilt Model A Engine Won't Turn

[some mech 3]

I can't time the newly rebuilt model A engine because I can't turn the crankshaft using a hand crank. I called the mechanic who rebuilt the engine and he said, Oh, you'll never be able to turn crank by hand. You have to use the starter. I told him the new battery will not turn the starter. His answer was to hook a 12 Volt battery in line with the 6 Volt. This will turn the engine over but you cannot control the speed of crankshaft in order to have the pin mate with the timing recess. Two people are needed to try to get the timing pin into the timing gear recess: one person pulsates the starter button while the second attempts to feel the recess and insert the pin.
It is strictly hit or miss and nearly impossible to time the engine. I have timed many Model A engines, but never one that couldn't be cranked by hand. Any suggestions? Thank you in advance.
Some mech 3

[denniskliesen]

The mechanic you talked to is full of BS. If you can't turn it with a hand crank in my opinion, there is something wrong.

[tinkirk]

Originally Posted by denniskliesen

The mechanic you talked to is full of BS. If you can't turn it with a hand crank in my opinion, there is something wrong.

i would be on his door step
this guy is full of BS

[Bob C]

Any chance the starter is jammed or one of the starter bolts is to long?
Hooking a 12V battery to a 6V is a good way to blow up the 6V battery,
I've seen it happen.


Bob

[Tacoma Bob]

BS to the max. Might try pulling the starter if in fact bolts are an issue. Maybe pull the plugs just to see if you can use the hand crank. I'm no expert but bearing caps might need a shim or two.

[harryc]

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Can you get it to turn by rocking it back and forth in gear? I have timed some very tight engines while pushing (struggling) down the hill of my driveway . I then had to tow them to get them started.

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

There is no reason to have bearings that tight. I’ve heard of some babbitters that do it that way, I suppose to try and burnish the bearings in for more contact, but if machined correctly, unnecessary. IMO

[J Franklin]

Originally Posted by Chuck Sea/Tac

There is no reason to have bearings that tight. I’ve heard of some babbitters that do it that way, I suppose to try and burnish the bearings in for more contact, but if machined correctly, unnecessary. IMO

My rebuilt engine was tight also and required to be towed about a mile with the plugs out to free it enough to time it with the plugs still out. After timing I used gravity and the starter to get it to start. Dropped the pan after about 700 miles and it all checked out ok. If the builder hadn't warned me that it was intentionally tight I would have taken it back, but figured if that was his work he would get to do it again if something got damaged,

[Charlie Stephens]

Walk very carefully on this. If there is a warrantee on the work he will probably try to get out of it by claiming something you did caused the problem. I would start by removing the starter and the plugs and see if you can crank it over with the crank (I assume it is installed in the car?).

Charlie Stephens

[Doug_Knutson]

You are sure it’s not because of a long bellhousing or starter motor bolt. I would crawl under and remove the starter and then attempt to turn using a screwdriver on the flywheel teeth. If you can’t turn it there I would go deeper or get the rebuilder to come and help. It might be as simple as a overnight front or rear oil seal assembly ??


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[daren007]

You should start shopping for another engine rebuilder.

[Bob Bidonde]

Rule of thumb is that it should not require more than 75 lbs-ft of torque to turn the crankshaft on a new rebuild.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by some mech 3

I can't time the newly rebuilt model A engine because I can't turn the crankshaft using a hand crank. I called the mechanic who rebuilt the engine and he said, Oh, you'll never be able to turn crank by hand. You have to use the starter. I told him the new battery will not turn the starter. His answer was to hook a 12 Volt battery in line with the 6 Volt. This will turn the engine over but you cannot control the speed of crankshaft in order to have the pin mate with the timing recess. Two people are needed to try to get the timing pin into the timing gear recess: one person pulsates the starter button while the second attempts to feel the recess and insert the pin.
It is strictly hit or miss and nearly impossible to time the engine. I have timed many Model A engines, but never one that couldn't be cranked by hand. Any suggestions? Thank you in advance.
Some mech 3

Don't try to run it, or pull it. Tear it down, there is something, or many things bad wrong with that engine. If you pull it, or try to run it, you will probably end up with nothing!


With listening to your builders answer, you should all ready know, he doesn't know much, or cares! By taking it back there isn't any reason to think, that next time will be any different!


When you take it a part, have some good engine guys with, as Witness
and take many, many pictures. Also write down all parts clearances.


The builder knew it wouldn't turn over when he sent it out!


Being that tight, if you pull it, that will even smear the bearings. The pistons are probably to tight also.


Herm.

[DHZIEMAN]

Originally Posted by some mech 3

I can't time the newly rebuilt model A engine because I can't turn the crankshaft using a hand crank. I called the mechanic who rebuilt the engine and he said, Oh, you'll never be able to turn crank by hand. You have to use the starter. I told him the new battery will not turn the starter. His answer was to hook a 12 Volt battery in line with the 6 Volt. This will turn the engine over but you cannot control the speed of crankshaft in order to have the pin mate with the timing recess. Two people are needed to try to get the timing pin into the timing gear recess: one person pulsates the starter button while the second attempts to feel the recess and insert the pin.
It is strictly hit or miss and nearly impossible to time the engine. I have timed many Model A engines, but never one that couldn't be cranked by hand. Any suggestions? Thank you in advance.
Some mech 3

First off, whoever this guy is, he is not a mechanic, he may be able to put an engine together but there is more to it than that.
Do not put 12 volts on it and in fact don't try and turn it with anything but a hand crank.

The pan needs to come off this engine and bearing caps loosened, and pistons oiled thru the spark plug holes, and ya gotta find out what is making the engine so tight. No engine overhaul done right should wind up with the engine locked up. It will be well worth the effort to take your time, and have someone with experience, "Not the mechanic", telling you to force turn the engine, and get to the heart of why this engine cannot be turned by the crank. Gonna be a Sherlock Holmes investigation kind of thing. Will be interested in what is found.

[Jacksonlll]

First put the car in third gear and push really hard backwards. Not forward. It just may turn.
Pulling the starter and doing the screw driver thing would work too.

[Corley]

Let's say you were to do as the assembler told you to do. Also, let's assume the "too tight" component is bearings. OK, you get it to turn, start and run. All the oil is squeezed out of said bearings, leaving them dry. They will then heat up, without lube, and in a worst case, melt the babbit or even the crank.

Now let's assume the "tight fit" is the Pistons or ring end gaps. What happens when you force it is the block gets gouged, the Pistons are also scraped and ring glands broken.

Why would you ever put a new engine at risk like that? Find the problem and fix it, then you might have a good long lasting engine. (I say might, because any idiot that would have you force an engine to turn, probably didn't do a very good job on any of it). A newly assembled engine should crank harder than a worn engine, but it should crank by hand. Period.

[Railcarmover]

No engine should ever be that tight.It shouldn't take 75 foot pounds of torque to turn it or have to be dragged around the block as few times to 'burnish' the bearings.Mr Kohnke is correct,do not do a thing but tear it back down and check all bearing clearances,if you cant do it yourself find someone..other than that guy.. to do it.You can fight for your money,or try to have him make it right,but I don't think he has the skills to make it right.Ford trained mechanics to set bearings by 'feel',its how you check the work once you feel the shims are correct.Crankshaft feel means it turns smoothly without 'breakout force',you can spin a crankshaft set correctly by hand prior to installing the rods,then rotation 'drag' increases with pistons installed,but not to where the engine requires heavy torque to turn it..the rod bearings are set and checked with a mallet,you should be able to tap the rod side to side on the crankshaft journal after measuring and shimming,its a way to insure the bearing isnt too tight.Clean pistons and measured piston ring gaps finishes the job.Its not rocket science,there are no wizards in babbit bearings,you have to follow the rules,and every step of the way make sure the engine isn't tight..there is no shortcuts,she has to come back down,all the way..

[Step-down]

Pull the plugs and try, oil the cylinders ..

[Synchro909]

Based on your engine builder's responses so far, you will only get one shot at this. I think Mr Kohnke's advice is worth heeding, especially the part about having a mechanic who knows his stuff with you. He seems to be so full of BS that you will need some backup.
Good luck with it.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Before we get too far out in 'left field with this', are we certain we did not get the wrong flywheel bolt(s) or too long of a starter bolt installed?

[M2M]

So the engine guy didn't put the engine on a test stand and start it to help break it in and to see if everything is okay?

[DD931]

This engine needs to be Plastigaged. You need to know that the clearances are adequate. My guess is that the mains are at zero clearance.

[Charlie Stephens]

I missed the post where you removed the plugs and starter as suggested and tried turning it. That might solve your problem.

Charlie Stephens

[tinkirk]

so when the guy put it together make's me wonder how hard the crank turned over so that he could install the rods,piston or if he was even able to check crank end play
it had to have been able to turn at that time
someone else suggested the flywheel bolts as too long.
pull it back out and start over checking the parts that you installed before taking any part of the motor apart
if you take any part of what he did apart he has reason to tell you no warranty if he offered any in the first place

Terry

[Kahuna]

This makes me absolutely ill & sick that there are still people that have no clue how to assemble an engine and take good money for it.
Railcarmover & Kohnke have it right. Follow their advice before you make it worse.
Jim

[Ed in Maine]

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You didn't mention how long your newly rebuilt engine has been sitting since the rebuild. Several years ago I had an engine rebuilt but I was not ready to mount the engine in the frame. One thing led to another and it sat about 3 years before I got the restoration to where it was time for the motor. Like you, I couldn't budge it with the crank and the 6v starter wouldn't budge it. I was afraid of what may have happened with the cylinders, so I pulled the head and found everything perfect, shiny steel cylinders, etc. Also checked the starter mounting bolts to be sure they were not too long. I re-oiled the cylinders and torqued head back down with a new gasket. I got my 12v battery out of my car and used it only on the starter. The 6v battery was used for the ignition. Still no luck with the 12v. So, I removed all the plugs, and towed the car with my tractor, very slowly, put the car in third gear and very slowly & carefully let the clutch out till I could hear the clutch disc start to rub and then hit the starter and bingo, the motor was turning. I emphasize very slowly, you don't want to shear a rear axle key! I had the hood off and could see the fan turning. I was one happy guy. I towed the car about a mile. The next step was to put the engine back together and using 12v started the car. I've got over 1500 miles on the car and it is perfect. It seems when an engine has sat for a period of time they can get stuck. My engine builder told me it was going to be tight but it was turning in the shop and criticized me for not hand turning it once a month while in storage. Good luck, Ed

[40 Deluxe]

"don't want to shear a rear axle key"?????? If you're worried about shearing an axle key, you better get out to your garage/shop right now and tighten those rear axle nuts! They must be too loose! The matching tapers of the axle shaft and the hub are what handle the load, not the key. With the nut properly torqued, the key is just along for the ride.

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by 40 Deluxe

"don't want to shear a rear axle key"?????? If you're worried about shearing an axle key, you better get out to your garage/shop right now and tighten those rear axle nuts! They must be too loose! The matching tapers of the axle shaft and the hub are what handle the load, not the key. With the nut properly torqued, the key is just along for the ride.

Not only should he tighten the nuts but he should make sure the tapers are clean and FREE OF OIL AND GREASE and not galled up. A tight engine might not be his only problem.

[Kurt in NJ]

I was reading in old book--- if it takes one horse to pull it around in gear it's ok, if it takes 2 horses it's too tight

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by Kurt in NJ

I was reading in old book--- if it takes one horse to pull it around in gear it's ok, if it takes 2 horses it's too tight

Did the book specify the size or age of the horse? Can't compare apples to oranges, you know

[eagle]

I hear/see a bunch of knowledgable people jumping to conclusions. First check to make sure nothing external is causing the engine to be locked, THEN if it is too tight to turn bring it back to the rebuilder and have them fix the problem. Getting in there now and messing around will only void any warranty you have. If this is a reputable rebuilder let them defend their reputation. The LAST thing you want to do is get into a dispute needlessly. Anyone can make a mistake, its how you re-address your mistakes that tests your true character.

[100IH]

OMG OP disappeared. Must have been cranking to start in gear and drove through the garage wall.

[Ernie Vitucci]

Just a thought, but I have a couple of times put the bolts in the starter incorrectly and ended up with the upper bolt up against the flywheel and nothing would move. Take the plugs out and take the starter off and if she won't turn over with the crank then do nothing until you can get knowledgeable help. Ernie in Arizona

[Jeff/Illinois]

Sounds to me like that 'engine rebuilder' is yanking your crank. Sorry this happened to you. No doubt there are a lot of other things wrong too, and even if you get the thing going it will probably crap out within 800 miles of use.

This guy didn't know what he was doing from the sounds of it.

[aermotor]

Originally Posted by 100IH

OMG OP disappeared. Must have been cranking to start in gear and drove through the garage wall.

Hope not.

John

[Tom Wesenberg]

You can't install the starter bolts incorrectly, because all 3 are 1" long.


You can install the incorrect bolt however.

[Corley]

Don't you just hate it when you never get to hear the "rest of the story"?

[George D]

I assembled an A engine once using permatex assembly lube on the mains and rods the stuff was so sticky I could not turn the engine over with a 2' breaker bar. Babbitt was new and clearances were correct had two clean the lube out and assemble with light oil then engine turned normally

[Richard Lorenz]

I have a '31 engine rebuilt by a very reputable builder. When new it took much more than 75 foot-pounds to turn it. Most of the drag was in the "asbestos" seals at the ends.

You might put a large pipe wrench on the hand crank with a pipe slipped over the pipe wrench to get more leverage.

My 6-volt start turned it over fast enough to start it when it was new.

[DHZIEMAN]

Originally Posted by some mech 3

I can't time the newly rebuilt model A engine because I can't turn the crankshaft using a hand crank. I called the mechanic who rebuilt the engine and he said, Oh, you'll never be able to turn crank by hand. You have to use the starter. I told him the new battery will not turn the starter. His answer was to hook a 12 Volt battery in line with the 6 Volt. This will turn the engine over but you cannot control the speed of crankshaft in order to have the pin mate with the timing recess. Two people are needed to try to get the timing pin into the timing gear recess: one person pulsates the starter button while the second attempts to feel the recess and insert the pin.
It is strictly hit or miss and nearly impossible to time the engine. I have timed many Model A engines, but never one that couldn't be cranked by hand. Any suggestions? Thank you in advance.
Some mech 3

In reading thru all that has been posted including mine, the wise thing is do the easy stuff first. And that is BRENT in 10-uh-C post! It may be that easy!

[gustafson]

If crank is locked, how did he adjust the valves (if he did)

[old31]

I 100% agree with Herm, but unless you got the job for free i would not do anything unless you get your money back. Why should you go throw this pain and work after you paid someone to do a job.

Tell him you will go to the AG's office and get an attorney if you are not paid back. Otherwise if you send it to another builder he will get that invoice and will have to pay it. That is his choice.

[aermotor]

Where is the OP? Is he ?

John

[gustafson]

sometimes when the OP is MIA it is a phantom post
at this point why respond

[M2M]

The profile of the OP is showing he's been visiting this website daily. I fear he's either quit the hobby in disgust, or he has removed the "rebuilt" engine (which will be soon listed on eBay and described as "fresh") and replaced it with one of these Ford engines from a Model P (Pinto):

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

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Originally Posted by M2M

The profile of the OP is showing he's been visiting this website daily. I fear he's either quit the hobby in disgust, or he has removed the "rebuilt" engine (which will be soon listed on eBay and described as "fresh") and replaced it with one of these Ford engines from a Model P (Pinto):

….or is it possible that the OP realized where the error was that caused the engine to seize and has now moved on? The other day I noticed the same thing about him checking in here on the site.

[ltdann]

What about the shims? Did he put any crank shims in?

[gustafson]

you are responding to a newbie poster who is AWOL, save your breath
I still think it is a fake post, an attempt to make somebody else look bad

[aermotor]

Originally Posted by gustafson

you are responding to a newbie poster who is AWOL, save your breath
I still think it is a fake post, an attempt to make somebody else look bad

Too bad, as there are 3345 views showing that people are interested in the "rest of the story" if the OP was real - which is possible judgeing by some of the answers. He could have done a good deed and saved someone else a lot of grief.

John

[some mech 3]

Thank you all for your thoughtful advice on solving the crankshaft that will not turn by using a hand crank. It does turn by using the starter. However, it still will not turn by hand cranking so that I can insert the timing pin into the recess in the timing gear. At present the car is at an auto repair shop and the mechanic said he was unable to turn it by hand cranking. I'll provide more updates as soon as I have something new to give you. Again, thank you all.

[gustafson]

clearances are way too tight

[J Franklin]

What weight oil is in it? Maybe the clearances are not "way too tight".

[gustafson]

if the builder says it won't turn then how did he set the valves?