12v conversion 59a starter solenoid 4 pole. 46 Mercury.

[Phil Gillespie]

The engine was set up on test stand and ran well using a key start set up without a solenoid. Starter motor is a Titan Quick Start Denso Gear reduction starter. This starter has the built in solenoid.

Have converted to 12v. Negative earth. Have a 4 pole solenoid fitted from Vintage Garage RA0314. Thiis will do a 1 wire start switch (switch grounded) or a 2 wire start switch (switch powered).
The one wire set up has jumper from small terminal to battery 12 positive inlet terminal.
The 2 wire jumper is from small terminal to an earth ie mounting screw.
Hooked it all up and no start?? Using the original start button and ignition switch etc.
With ignition switch on am getting 12 v at coil. Coil is 12v with 3 ohms at primary so no resistor. Have also a wire at power outlet of solenoid to starter motor and another to the solenoid on the starter.
Seeems like the starter button is not wired correct ??

Would appreciate any advice as dont want to fry anything at this stage.
Its ready for the road once I get a new WOF for it. These have to be renewed every 6 months in NZ. Keep to get it on road and clock up some miles on it.
Morris Run In oil for first 500 miles.
Phil NZ.

[JSeery]

Have you tried a jumper to ground right at the 4 pole solenoid to see if it is working? I would check that first.

I'm trying to figure out what relay you are using. Can you provide a link, can't find anything using RA0314?

[Phil Gillespie]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Have you tried a jumper to ground right at the 4 pole solenoid to see if it is working? I would check that first.

I'm trying to figure out what relay you are using. Can you provide a link, can't find anything using RA0314?

Cant sort out the link. Its at Vintage Auto Garage. Ford Starter Solenoid
Activated by switched ground or power. Part No: 7-1013.

Will check with a jumper to see if working.
Phil NZ

[JSeery]

Ya, that works better. Connect a jumper to the terminal labeled ground button and short it to ground and see if the starter turns.

What's going on at the starter? If it worked directly with an input before, how is it wired up now?

Reread the OP, and now I'm not sure what is the issue you are having.

The starter will not turn the engine over?

Or the engine turns over but the engine will not fire?

[Phil Gillespie]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Ya, that works better. Connect a jumper to the terminal labeled ground button and short it to ground and see if the starter turns.

What's going on at the starter? If it worked directly with an input before, how is it wired up now?

Reread the OP, and now I'm not sure what is the issue you are having.

The starter will not turn the engine over?

Or the engine turns over but the engine will not fire?

The fault at present is that starter will not turn over engine.
Before on the test stand this solenoid was not in play it was just wired through a key start and fired up well.
Phil NZ

[JSeery]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Short the ground button terminal on the solenoid to ground and see if you have voltage at the starter connection on the solenoid.

[Phil Gillespie]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Short the ground button terminal on the solenoid to ground and see if you have voltage at the starter connection on the solenoid.

Is that just what Idid to verify starter turned over??
Or is it to remove terminal lead and short to ground? Then check for voltage?
Will have to progress tomorrow.
Appreciate all so far.

Phil NZ.

[flatjack9]

Googled Vintage Garage and didn't come up with anything.

[JSeery]

https://www.vintageautogarage.com/

https://www.vintageautogarage.com/se...&Submit=Search

[JSeery]

I was want you to test the solenoid to see if it was activating when the one terminal was grounded and if there was power getting to the starter. Don't change any wiring yet, just see if what you have is working.

[rich b]

You do have the battery cable hooked up to the starter and are only using the 4 post solenoid as a relay to send voltage to the solenoid terminal.

Battery cable hooked to starter.
Wire from there to battery post on 4 post solenoid.
Wire from starter post on 4 post solenoid to solenoid post on starter.
Jumper wire on 4 post solenoid as in posted pictures.
Wire from 4 post solenoid to start button as in posted pictures.

[koates]

If your new starter motor has a shift solenoid on top of it that shifts the starter drive into mesh with the ring gear then you really dont need a separate solenoid involved. All you need is to power the small terminal on the starter solenoid from a key or press button start switch. If you use the original firewall solenoid then it has to power the main terminal on the starter and also the small activating terminal together. Put a small jump wire between the solenoid on top of the starter main terminal and the small terminal that activates the solenoid. Regards, Kevin.

[koates]

On reflection this could be wired a couple of different ways. Please explain where you have the main heavy battery cable from the batt positive terminal connected to. Is it on the firewall solenoid or the actual starter solenoid terminal ?? Regards, Kevin.

[Phil Gillespie]

Originally Posted by koates

On reflection this could be wired a couple of different ways. Please explain where you have the main heavy battery cable from the batt positive terminal connected to. Is it on the firewall solenoid or the actual starter solenoid terminal ?? Regards, Kevin.

Presently have the positive battery terminal to the input side of the 4 post soleniod mounted at original position on firewall.
Output from solenoid is then to starter motor with another lead to starter motor operating solenoid.
Phil NZ

[koates]

Phil, that sounds as if it is connected OK and should work providing that the firewall solenoid is switching ON when the dash button grounds one of the small solenoid terminals. Time to use a test light (not your meter) and test to see where you are getting power through and where you are not getting power through. Does the firewall solenoid CLICK when you press the starter button ? Regards, Kevin.

[Phil Gillespie]

Originally Posted by koates

Phil, that sounds as if it is connected OK and should work providing that the firewall solenoid is switching ON when the dash button grounds one of the small solenoid terminals. Time to use a test light (not your meter) and test to see where you are getting power through and where you are not getting power through. Does the firewall solenoid CLICK when you press the starter button ? Regards, Kevin.

Will check this one out tomorrow. As want to stay with the original set up.
ie ignition switch on and push starter button to start her up.
think I have a test light about.
That seems to be the problem as you say, to be sure the firewall soleniod is in fact switching on!!.
Phil NZ

[Phil Gillespie]

59a Titian Starter Motor. Sept 2020.jpg





See fitting intructions for the Titian Quick Start Starter as supplied by NZ supplier.

Phil NZ

[Dodge]

It’s been along time but doesn’t the stock system put hot to the solenoid and the starter button grounds it out for the connection.
You also don’t want to use the original solenoid and the solenoid on the starter it won’t disengage quick enough, there is a slight delay that hangs up the starter.
Find a starter button that will put 12v to the solenoid on the starter.
If memory serves me correctly.

[Phil Gillespie]

An update from suggestions and advice,

Pushing the original start button incar there is no click of soleniod comming in.

I then shorted on the solenoid the button terminal to ground: Solenoid clicked in.

With ignition switch off: power to starter connection on solenoid out to starter.
With ignition switch on: Power to starter connection on soleniod outt starter.
Power to starter connection button terminal.

Ignition switch on Voltage at terminals on solenoid:
1: Battery positive yes
2:Jumper connecton terminal as per drawing, yes
3;Starter switch Yes ???
4:Starter motor No.

The solenoid has at the battery input terminal a 2 wire connection from ?
The solenoid has at the starter switch terminal a single wire connection From starter button I would think.
Phil NZ

[Phil Gillespie]

I requested info from Vintage Garage who I had got bits off for the 12v converstion.

Hello Simple
Your starter needs 12 volts to your denso starter may need to replace your single wire button to 2 wire so when you push the button delivers 12 volts currently your button goes to ground will not work with your new starter.

Jay.

Just wanted to keep all starter sequence as per original as much as possible.
Phil NZ

[JSeery]

Unless you have something different connected up the ignition switch should have nothing to do with the solenoid you installed. The ignition switch input should be hot all the time and connected to the same solenoid terminal as the battery (thus hot all the time, just like the original).

Might have to do a little more think here (that's on my part) but I don't see why it won't work the way you are wanting to wire it up.

[Phil Gillespie]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Unless you have something different connected up the ignition switch should have nothing to do with the solenoid you installed. The ignition switch input should be hot all the time and connected to the same solenoid terminal as the battery (thus hot all the time, just like the original).

Might have to do a little more think here (that's on my part) but I don't see why it won't work the way you are wanting to wire it up.

I hoping for this. At present as reported original starter button is not doing the business right? Dont want to do any 2 wire conversions if possible.
Phil NZ

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Phil Gillespie

I hoping for this. At present as reported original starter button is not doing the business right? Dont want to do any 2 wire conversions if possible.
Phil NZ

Ya, but that is just a wiring issue between the button and the solenoid if shorting the terminal on it activates it. The starter button is just a remote ground path.

This looks like it should work to me.

[Phil Gillespie]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Ya, but that is just a wiring issue between the button and the solenoid if shorting the terminal on it activates it. The starter button is just a remote ground path.

This looks like it should work to me.

So is it just to re run a wire from solenoid start switch connection to starter button on dash? As other wiring is how it already is? With the existing fitted jumper wire still in place as per single wire set up?
Phil NZ

[38bill]

Not familiar with your solenoid but when I changed to 12V neg earth (ground) I had to add a 12V relay to get my stock starter button to work.

The starter button grounds the relay and the relay sends 12V to the starter solenoid.

[Phil Gillespie]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by 38bill

Not familiar with your solenoid but when I changed to 12V neg earth (ground) I had to add a 12V relay to get my stock starter button to work.

The starter button grounds the relay and the relay sends 12V to the starter solenoid.

Thats how i understand my 4 pole soleniod should work.
Starter button grounds solenoid , solenoid clicks closed and power then to outlet to starter and its solenoid.
Phil
NZ

[Phil Gillespie]

just relooked at the enlarged wiring diagram and it seems similar operation to wiring diagram as per J Serry?
The 2 input wires at the battery connection terminal are to:
1: Field terminal at Voltage regulator.
2:Ignition switch, gauges etc.

Phil NZ

[JSeery]

If your starter engages when you short out the starter button terminal on the solenoid, then it should be the same thing when wired to the button on the dash. All the button is, is a connection to ground. It is the chrome button with a single connection on it correct? They can be an issue with not making a good ground connection to the hole it is installed in. I think Kube always adds an additional ground wire from the housing.

[Phil Gillespie]

Originally Posted by JSeery

If your starter engages when you short out the starter button terminal on the solenoid, then it should be the same thing when wired to the button on the dash. All the button is, is a connection to ground. It is the chrome button with a single connection on it correct? They can be an issue with not making a good ground connection to the hole it is installed in. I think Kube always adds an additional ground wire from the housing.

Yes As per drawing that all seems correct. So it should be removed cleaned up and add an addition ground wire.
before the engine rebuild it was still on 6v and this worked ok.
Will check clean up at start button etc and retry.
Got some time back a large colour coded and laminated wiring diagram from Classic Car Wiring in USA for 46.47 & 48 Mercury cars.These have been a great help to clearly see and follow.
Phil NZ

[flatjack9]

Originally Posted by Phil Gillespie

I requested info from Vintage Garage who I had got bits off for the 12v converstion.

Hello Simple
Your starter needs 12 volts to your denso starter may need to replace your single wire button to 2 wire so when you push the button delivers 12 volts currently your button goes to ground will not work with your new starter.

Jay.

Just wanted to keep all starter sequence as per original as much as possible.
Phil NZ

How can a 4 post solenoid be considered original?

[Phil Gillespie]

Ok so looked behind starter button and saw the earth wire had detached from switch.
Pulled out switch, cleaned up contacts and refitted wire. surprise surprise it started right up!!! yea.
Probably happened when I was swapping out 6v dash lamps for 12 v.
Appreciate all assistance and advice gived.
Phil NZ

[RKS.PA]

Wow, Phil!! This has been quite a ride!! J. Seery to the rescue with his super electrical knowledge! Just goes to show what a great resource this Ford Barn network is.


Very happy you've got this solved and can now get out an put on some "road miles".

[Phil Gillespie]

Originally Posted by RKS.PA

Wow, Phil!! This has been quite a ride!! J. Seery to the rescue with his super electrical knowledge! Just goes to show what a great resource this Ford Barn network is.


Very happy you've got this solved and can now get out an put on some "road miles".

So am i and this site is a great resource with those with the little extra always wiling to assist and give.
Phil NZ

[Phil Gillespie]

Originally Posted by flatjack9

How can a 4 post solenoid be considered original?

It cant as with the high torque starter, the change to 12 volt or the new style generator.
I was refering to the original key to ignition switch and via a firewall mounted solenoid as opposed to a new 2 wire key switch direct to starter.
i have still retained the single wire set up as opposed to 2 wire set up.
Also this 4 post solenoid sits beneath one of those original type heaters which has an air mounted duct on underside of hood.The motor for heater almost obscures this solenoid.
Phil NZ

[drolston]

Originally Posted by Phil Gillespie

An update from suggestions and advice,

Pushing the original start button incar there is no click of soleniod comming in.

I then shorted on the solenoid the button terminal to ground: Solenoid clicked in.

With ignition switch off: power to starter connection on solenoid out to starter.
With ignition switch on: Power to starter connection on soleniod outt starter.
Power to starter connection button terminal.

Ignition switch on Voltage at terminals on solenoid:
1: Battery positive yes
2:Jumper connecton terminal as per drawing, yes
3;Starter switch Yes ???
4:Starter motor No.

The solenoid has at the battery input terminal a 2 wire connection from ?
The solenoid has at the starter switch terminal a single wire connection From starter button I would think.
Phil NZ

No solenoid click with button; clicks when grounding the button terminal on the solenoid. Sounds like a bad starter button on the dash, which is very common with the reproduction buttons. I just trashed my repo button and paid a stupid price for NOS button. The repo buttons can not be repaired as the tabs that hold the back on will break if spread to open and then bent back.

[JSeery]

Way to go Phil!

[Phil Gillespie]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Way to go Phil!

As per Joe Cocker " I get by with a little help from my feiends" Especially truenat this site. Thanks so much.
Phil NZ