'32 Tudor roof...

[PeteVS]

Earlier in the week, my brother and I tore the roof off the '32. Before he got it in '57, the owner (a farmer) had liberally coated it with roofing cement. The roofing cement was all down the sides but it was removed from the body back in the day. It was kind of a mess. Today, we got down to the nitty gritty of cleaning up around the edges. Surprisingly, the metal strips look to be in very good shape. Now, here's the question. How was that roof put on? Are there any good cross section views showing the body sheet metal, the wood framing, and, mainly, the metal strips that are screwed and tacked in the wood and the roof is apparently anchored to. Thanks a whole bunch for any enlightenment that can be shed here.

[Charlie Stephens]

I am not much on the details but remember if you isolate the chicken wire from the car body you can use it as a radio antenna.

Charlie Stephens

[DICK SPADARO]

Surprisingly if you go to the Julianos Interior web site they had a tech instruction sheet for installing their top kits on hot rods. The best part about it is that the procedure is almost the same with your jennie car top material with the exception of having to use the hot rod style tack strip. Since your tack strips are in good condition just use those over. Becareful when removing the strips as not to bend them or kink them they are very expensive to replace and no reproductions are available. You will also have to get a roll of the rubber tack strip seal. When reinstsalling the top I have been using a good coating of headgasket cement around the tack strip opening before laying down the canvas inner liner. A good coat promotes a water tight seal between the body steel, canvas top material and the tack strip and helps prevent a water stain on a new interior. I also use 3/4" long wood paneling nails and drill a pilot hole before they are hammered into place. This prevent the nail from bending when driven into the hardwood top surround.

[DavidG]

The top insert is a sandwich (starting next to the wood cross bows) of chicken wire, canvas, padding, and outer top fabric (such as the long/short grain material offered by LeBaron Bonney). Assuming your chicken wire is intact, the canvas is tacked down around the perimeter, the padding laid down on top of the canvas, and the outer top fabric tacked around around the perimeter. Obviously, all of the materials are trimmed after tacking them down.

The steel tacking strips were originally tacked down in the groove in the roof sheet metal, but if you can find flat head #2 or #3 wood screws you are less likely to chip the steel tack strip (black-painted), especially if perimeter wood is the original.

A silicone sealer should be applied in the groove to cover the heads of the tacks for the outer top fabric and along the trimmed edge of that fabric before installing the tack strip to provide a water proof seal. Once the tack strip is installed, seal the over the tack or screw heads. A rubber strip is available from Dennis Carpenter and others inserts into the center of the tack strip to finish the job.

Unfortunately, the rubber strip available is not a very good duplicate of the original used on '32s, which was a flattened upside down V-shape made of rubber covered in black artificial leather. Nick Alexander makes the real thing, but it is expensive.

LeBaron Bonney offers a complete top kit consisting of the canvas, padding, and outer material that includes helpful instructions.

This is a job that requires a lot of time and patience in order to end up with a wrinkle-free, water-tight roof insert.

The attached photo shows an original steel tack strip.

If you are missing the original steel tack strip (it was originally in three pieces) there's a fellow in California who has perfected bending the available aluminum replacement tack strip material. If you need to contact him, please let me know and I'll dig out his e-mail address.

[jim1932]

How the hell did you guys figure all this out before the computer? We would be so screwed up trying to figure this out by ourselves. Instead a guy in Jersey gets correct advice from Albany Ny and Detroit. In three hours......

[DavidG]

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Here's the information about the Oxnard, CA bender of reproduction top insert tack strips: Mark Mitchell of Mitchell Machine & Fabrication, (310) 649-7963, [email protected].

[DavidG]

And some photos of his work.

[PeteVS]

First, you guys are great!!
Second, the guy in Oxnard is cheating. It appears that he has experience AND the right tools! Nothing can look that good.
Third, what I saw: There was some kind of paper over the wood bows that was white on the bottom and black on the top. The chicken wire was tacked around the edges. What appears to have been the lower fabric layer seems to be anchored UNDER the grooved "tack strip?" And, there appears to have been a piece of cord in the grooved metal strip that sits pretty much on top of everything. We pulled all of the wood screws out of the inner metal piece and nothing came apart. I also see that there are tacks about every 2" in the bottom of the grooved metal strip. Are both metal strips glued to the wood frame? Can the wood be replaced from the bottom? Is it possible to assemble the whole top and put it into a body, just bolting the wood frame in and sealing it? FINALLY, what are the two holes in one of the center ribs for?

[PeteVS]

AND, who makes a good wood kit?

[DavidG]

As to who makes a good wood kit, Wood Art does, but the lead time could be very long according to some hobbyists (I never experienced the problem). Likely there are other sources as well and someone will chime in with a recommendation.

The holes in the center rib are for the attachment and wiring of the dome lamp. It sounds like you are missing the piece of wood that attaches to the rib which the dome lamp body is attached to. The attached illustration of a bare standard coupe body from the '32 body parts catalogue shows this piece (the catalogue illustration of a bare Tudor isn't angled enough to show it).

All of the wood is installed from inside the body, but no, you can't assemble the whole top and install it from the bottom as the result would leave quite a gap between the where the outer fabric meets the inner lip of the surrounding sheet metal and where the tack strip is attached.

Your description of "two" metal strips is inconsistent with every original '32 roof insert that I've seen, all of which have a single piece of removable steel tack strip as in the photo posted previously. It sounds more like what was used in '33 and '34. The cord that you mentioned rings no bells either. How about some photos?

There is always the possibility that the top insert had been replaced sometime in the distant past and that process might not have duplicated what Ford did back in 1932.

[PeteVS]

OK- I'll have to assume, then, that what I think is a separate strip (which has holes for screws every 3" or so) is actually the top of the body stampings that continue in past the removable tack strip. That would have the outer wood framing screwed to the inner lip of the top of the body stampings. The "tack strip" has tacks every 2" or so. They must go thru the body stampings into the wood also? Is there any glue or sealant under the tack strip? Pictures below aren't too great.

PS: It appeared that there was some sort of cord? in the groove in the tack strip. It was hard to tell what with the roofing cement about 1/8" on top of and into everything. Once again, I was assuming the the top fabric was folded over a cord which was then hammered down into the groove on the tack strip?

PPS: Dome light in the car is way at the back over the seat. Is this kosher?

[DavidG]

Thanks for the photos; everything looks as it should. You assume correctly, namely that what your wood is attached to is part of the overall stamping of the roof panel.

The separate tack strip that I posted a photo of goes on top of the outer top covering topping material. The material does not fit into the groove of the tack strip, at least not originally. A rubber filler strip fits into that groove as cited in my earlier note.

The nails that hold the tack strip do indeed enter the wood though those elongated oval holes in the roof panel stamping that show up in your two photos. Please re-read my earlier note on this subject as well as that of Dick Spadaro regarding the necessity to seal off the fabric edges and the tack holes with sealer. If you want to be super careful, use a thin layer of sealer for each series of tacks (the canvas layer, the outer topping layer, and the tack strip in that order).

Forget the cord; there was none originally. tacks were used first for the canvas, etc., etc. The well-equipped amongst us use an air-powered staple gun except for the tack strip. I use tacks at each stage as I find that I may need to move some of them in order to have a wrinkle-free finished product. If this is the first top insert you've installed, I'd recommend the slow route using tacks.

Your car was evidently a deluxe model which had an oval-shaped dome light over the rear seat. The standard model used a round dome light located more or less in the center of the roof. The two holes you referred to earlier were unused in the case of deluxe bodies.

Judging from your photos, I strongly recommend that you leave the original wood in place. It appears to be in super condition or am I missing something? The effort associated with installing new wood is horrific. I would recommend that you fill the nail holes in the wood in the elongated oval openings out about 6 inches from each of the four corners with a modern filler that holds nails or screws. The greatest need for a good base for your tacks (or screws for the tack strip as I recommended earlier) is in those areas, particularly when attaching the metal tack strip as the last step (before the rubber filler strips are added).

If all of the above makes some sense, you'll conclude that up to three different sets of tacks (or two sets of tack and one set of screws) have to fit into the wood through those elongated oval openings in the corners of the roof stamping so you'll need all of the holding power that those areas of wood can provide.

[BillM]

I would recommend that you fill the nail holes in the wood in the elongated oval openings out about 6 inches from each of the four corners with a modern filler that holds nails or screws.

Thank you David for your excellent advice; could you recommend a filler brand ?

[PeteVS]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Judging from your photos, I strongly recommend that you leave the original wood in place. It appears to be in super condition or am I missing something? The effort associated with installing new wood is horrific.

The ribs are just about all shot. A couple are busted (heavy bird house fell out of a TALL tree 50 years ago) and only one appears to have the correct "crown." Others are split or bent horizontally instead of vertically. Some of the screws that went thru the sheet metal came out nicely but others came out with wood residue filling the threads. Some of the screws were regular wood screws, but most of them looked more like tacks with very sharp points and an extremely high pitch on the threads. We have a cabinet maker friend so perhaps we'd be best off making our own replacements. So, exactly how is the outer fabric attached?
Yes to the Deluxe model. Car has cowl lights and window garnishes were wood grained.

THANKS SO MUCH!!

[DavidG]

Pete,

As indicated in my first post in this thread the outer fabric is tacked down with either tacks or staples into the wood through the elongated openings in the roof panel stamping.

Sorry to hear that you need to replace the wood.

Don't forget the chicken wire.

[DavidG]

Bill,

The very best thing is a relatively new product developed to heal horses' hooves, but I can't come up with the name until tomorrow at the earliest. There are some great waterproof glues that work and I've good results with two-part Minwax wood filler.

If there's rot present (wet or dry) several companies, including Minwax offer a product to stop the rot and stabilize the wood so that two-part filler can be used to restore the surface and fastener-holding characteristics of the wood.

[Rem]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

I am not much on the details but remember if you isolate the chicken wire from the car body you can use it as a radio antenna.

Charlie Stephens

My Tudor body is a US-style one that came to me from Portugal, where at some time in its past the roof insert was replaced by a sheet of hand-beaten sheet steel that was screwed in place over the original padding, then soldered (leaded) all around the edge.

I initially wondered if this wire loop underneath was an aerial (antenna), but would that work under a sheet of steel? The other option would be a heater, but that would be a bit redundant in Portugal, especially as it would only heat the occupants' heads! One end is grounded to the body, but the other end is no longer connected to anything.

Sorry for the slight hijack, PeteVS, but I've included a pic of the channel around the edge if it's of any help. I'm hoping I can keep my original wood in there, although there is a little bit of rust in one or two places around the edge.

[DavidG]

You're lucky it was only screwed and soldered. During my work assignments in South America, it was rare to encounter a '32-36 closed car where the opening wasn't covered with sheet steel welded out beyond the channel.

[Roger/Sacramento]

I had a steel top installed on my '32 Tudor. I kept the tack strip and it is in perfect condition. If anybody needs one I will part with it for a reasonable price.

Roger,,,,,[email protected]

[jimTN]

I have been replacing the cushion material under the outer fabric with sheets of foil covered insulation obtained from a local hot rod shop. It has worked well and is the right thickness.