Use of Slip plate to lube springs

[Clem Clement]

I'm still worrying the issue of lubing 39-41 springs. It seems to me that Slip Plate can replace Ford M #4682. Several of us use it to good success. We don't find Slip Plate in a tube container to be injected by a grease gun. We find if we jack up the vehicle on the frame and let the wheels hang, the springs open enough to allow Slip Plate to be sprayed between the spring leaves. Even better if brake cleaner is first sprayed between the leave to remove rust and dirt. I am suspicious of how well lube can be pushed up thru the "Extender" to the spring bolt and oozes along the depressed groove in the spring leave?

I'm also hearing that if the springs are serviced well, the car noticeably rides a lot smoother.

[19Fordy]

Clem, What you say about using SLIP PLATE makes sense, especially if used as part of regular maintenance. Trouble with grease is that it hardens up over time and doesn't flow, inhibiting lubrication. I don't think this happens with SLIP PLATE.
https://www.amazon.com/Slip-Plate-Pl.../dp/B005ESITFQ

[Clem Clement]

I have used Slip Plate on one set of springs that the stuff is oozing nicely out of the sides of the spring stack. I continue to hear that grease hardens: Meaning it mixes with road dirt? I would seem to me that for us driving our oldies, we would not get much dirt in the springs. So a one- time cleaning during restoration would last forever?

[JSeery]

Don't think the center bolt lube point every worked very well. The center of the leaves don't move that much, it is the leaf tip that needs the lube the most. And even with the grooves in the leaves it is difficult for any lubricate pumped into the center to get out to the tips.

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by JSeery

Don't think the center bolt lube point every worked very well. The center of the leaves don't move that much, it is the leaf tip that needs the lube the most. And even with the grooves in the leaves it is difficult for any lubricate pumped into the center to get out to the tips.

This is exactly right. Pushing through the center bolt zerk, the lube only travels as far as the nearest escape route, never reaching the leaf tips. The spring needs to be disassembled, the wear spots from the tips ground smooth, and leaves slathered with Slip Plate.
"It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it."

[Kurt in NJ]

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Once regular grease is injected it will block the passages, the spring lube was thin oil with talc, the original had a trace of ground asbestos, Had a car that was low mileage and had only had spring lube not grease, that car the lube got to the tips, had a 46 that was greased that one just leaked spring lube in the center area and the tips stayed rusty

[Clem Clement]

thanks for the conformation.


I am a previous owner of a 29 Packard. She had the Beiseu(Sp.?) lube system. 32 fittings were tubed together and each line had a filter at the end. Several sizes filter's were used. Anyways, some filters/fittings got lubed and some never.

[Floyd]

In my simple mind and opinion, the closest current material to the original M 4682 is simply fifth wheel grease that is used on ,guess what, fifth wheels on semi swivel plates. This material is designed for almost no flow, high contact load and very low speed. This meets all the requirements of the original material. A couple of other fun facts is that it is super cheap and available at all big truck parts stores. It sets on the counter in a display box of 2 ounce packets. Truckers just throw the packet onto the plate. If you study the chemistry and tribolgy of this application , this is the current substitute. I I am not a fan of a slip-plate dry material as it has no viscosity and is therfore super thin. Good for smoth surfaces. We are trying to separate two very rough surfaces. Your milage will vary.

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by Floyd

In my simple mind and opinion, the closest current material to the original M 4682 is simply fifth wheel grease that is used on ,guess what, fifth wheels on semi swivel plates. This material is designed for almost no flow, high contact load and very low speed. This meets all the requirements of the original material. A couple of other fun facts is that it is super cheap and available at all big truck parts stores. It sets on the counter in a display box of 2 ounce packets. Truckers just throw the packet onto the plate. If you study the chemistry and tribolgy of this application , this is the current substitute. I I am not a fan of a slip-plate dry material as it has no viscosity and is therfore super thin. Good for smoth surfaces. We are trying to separate two very rough surfaces. Your milage will vary.

Floyd, you're the man. I was thinking Slip Plate was just a brand name for Fifth Wheel lube. This stuff (Fifth Wheel) is greasy, sloppy, sticky black goo that does the trick.

[FlatheadTed]

The more flexible the springs are the better your shocks need to be ,A dry spring has a damping effect , but I guess you already new that ,

[Clem Clement]

I'm learning so much! Thanks

[Brian]

What Ted alludes to above is my understanding. I was taught springs need the friction imposed between each leaf in order to work as they are supposed to.

[Clem Clement]

I started this thread in part, because the springs on my fully restored 40 Merc squawk. They have the tin covering. How do I lube them? I have the special nipple and nut extender on the spring bolt. As was said, that system is not very good.

My 39 Ford pickup has the same system but there is no tin covering. I have the pickup jacked up with the rear hanging on the springs. I have sprayed the slightly opened spring leaves with brake cleaner and blasted some crud away with compressed air. I'm ready to lube the leaves with something. I'm liking what I hear about Fifth Wheel.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Brian

What Ted alludes to above is my understanding. I was taught springs need the friction imposed between each leaf in order to work as they are supposed to.

Ford intended for the springs to be lubricated, it is part of the routine lubrication and listed in the charts. Ford also specified the use of spring lubricant, which they sold.

[Brian]

Yes, I know of ford's specified spring lube. What other automobiles have lubricated springs?

[sunshine]

Clem I use fifth wheel grease on my 39 pkp. Front and back , but I had the springs completely off of the truck and apart . On the 47 I jacked the it up by the frame and forced it onto the leafs with a puddy knife . It worked better on the 39 . Sunshine

[Doublepumper]

I've been using motorcycle chain lube. Spray it onto the leaves and after it penetrates wipe off the excess with mineral spirits. Seems to work very well.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Brian

Yes, I know of ford's specified spring lube. What other automobiles have lubricated springs?

None that I am aware of, LOL. But then not many transverse springs either.

[FlatheadTed]

From my experience ,If the springs are lubed and the shocks are not that great serious axl tramp can occur on corrugated roads even to the point of braking a axle ,

[Floyd]

So true. A leaf spring is really a constant strength (stress) plate of roughly diamond shape and cut into strips and stacked together to make practical sized assembly for use. It is nothing more than that. Now with the strips stacked together we get some form of friction between the slightly sliding plates. This provides a bit of damping (hysteresis) to the assembly which is going to be needed somewhere in a spring mass assembly. This small amount is acknowledged in the design of the real damping device that we call shock absorber. The lube that is added is to prevent squeaks and to provide a constant amount of friction over the life of the assembly. The lube is not there to eliminate the friction, only to try to keep it constant in spite of rain, salt , rust and corrosion trying to change the characteristics over time. As Ted alludes to above, in time without maintaining the lube of the springs (probably no one did it anyway ,even with the wrapped deluxe models), the friction level rises, increasing damping. At the same time the shocks are wearing and their damping rate is decreasing. The spring increase in damping factor however is not enough to fully offset the loss in the shocks, but given a spring surface ugly and rough enough, it certainly helps.
We have a spring-mass-damper system on all cars and they should sing in harmony and in the same key.
This is why I am fully opposed to the teflon spring insets besides the fact that they look stupid.
Every time my '32 stops on a dime, I say "thanks Ted"

[Kurt in NJ]

The original Fors lube for springs is shown on page 383 of the 1936 service bulletins, along with the introduction of the new springs with lubrication channels
M-4628 lubricant, 77.5% ice machine oil, 20% talc, and 2.5% ground asbestos

Ice machine oil is real thin, auto transmission oil is thion, in researching "talc" I found it is used as a polishing agent, and dry lubricant, and is used in some versions of "slip plate", the asbestos I havn't found a reason, perhaps it helps the talc at it's job, today perhaps some graphite
the way the spring is designed liquid would travel to the tips of the springs when pumped into the center---unless the spring was greased, then the lubrication grooves will only move a short distance before it is forced out the sides, and it won't flow by gravity to the tips, once grease is there it also prevents the flow of proper spring lube

My first driver car was a 46, is had the springs greased---both by me and previous owners, the tips were shedding rust, the center area oozing grease, If I stood on one side running board the car would still lean when I got off, it rode bad--hard and skittered on washboard bumps, then got a 39 (60hp) that was low mileage and most of it's life got worked on at the ford dealer by the old guy,always lubed with spring lube, when lubed the tips got wet, and when jumping off the running board the car would return to level, the ride was good, much better than the 46

[39portlander]

Clem this is how I applied it to my Model T springs, I did have to get a tick longer center bolt that was needed due to the coating on the springs.

I used a long 3/8 threaded rod through the spring pack and clamped several areas together to compress the leaves. Drove out the threaded rod and inserted the new center bolt.

The real fun part was getting the rear leaf/shackle/spring perch together

[Clem Clement]

Thanks. You all are most helpful
Be safe

[Clem Clement]

I just received fifth wheel lube in a tube and a version in a rattle can. I will report how the application process works.
Clem

[Clem Clement]

I sprayed Slip plate on the springs. I hung newspaper from the car to reduce over spray. I did find a piece of the tin spring covers between leaves?? Did the 39 pickup have spring covers?

I don't find any holes in the spring covers of my 40Merc? I had hoped to drown the noisy springs in 90wt oil.

[rotorwrench]

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Talcum powder used to have more asbestos fibers in it but that is strictly forbiden in the modern era. They have been finding traces of asbestos recently in some of the talcs that aren't supposed to have any so it has led to a lot of folks discontinuing use of the stuff for there baby care products. They mostly use pure corn starch now.

My own experience with lubricating anything that is used in a dirty or dusty environment has been the use of dry lubricants such as moly coat sprays or just powdered graphite. Anything that attracts dust to stick to it just forms balls of crud until all the oil in the lubricant has been leached out into that crud ball. This is sort of like sandpaper or lapping compound and it is not good for bearings or load bearing parts on a standpoint of rapid wear. This was why Ford started using covers but that practice didn't really last all that long.

[John R]

Way back in the day, we would grease between the leaves, assemble the spring then wrap them with electrical tape. I don't recall what sort of grease we used.

[Clem Clement]

I had a nice trip for gas in the '39 Pickup. I think the springs are a little softer.
I also upgraded a used shock.

I wanted to try another idea: I had a 1/2 load of Corn head grease in a manual grease gun. I filled the rest of the gun with 90Wt oil. Some ran out the plunger handle aperture. Some 90wt went thru the grease gun and began running out of the spring leaf stack. That aught do some good. (I have tin oil trays to catch the mess and Momma was in the house.)

Now for the squeaky 40 Merc springs with tin wrap: Somebody said some restorers use a sheet of stuff containing asbestos between springs leaves. I can't see the springs for the wrap. Could this be what is squawking?

Could I drill small holes in the wrap horizontally near the center top edge of the 2 wrap sections. Then pump 600 weight in until it runs out of the wheel ends of the wraps? Plug the holes with a insert so the holes don't show? A bud suggests heating the 600tw so it will flow better during the insertion process.

[JSeery]

Clem, what are you referring to as 600 weight? The stuff that is sold to the Model A guys? If so, several things here, first "w" doesn't stand for oil weight in general, it is for "winter" and has to do with the temperature the viscosity is measured at. Second the "w" in 600w is a brand name for a Mobile steam engine oil and was rated under a different system than what is currently used. It has a viscosity of around 140 under current SAE standards. IMO it is mostly a gimmick and nothing I would use for much of anything.

[Floyd]

Daily hero award goes to "JSeery" above. A technically correct statement and someone who knows what W stands for! Yeah.
The 600W as noted above was for high temp steam cylinder applications because it is 100% lube with no additives at all. This is good for wet steam applications as the condensate is not carried into the lube via moisture sensitive additives. It is also still used in very heavy loaded worn gear applications(sliding contact) of slow speeds as in industrial applications. This is a case where additives actually degrade the performance of a product. 100% lube is all available for lubrication. A simple but special material even today.
Yes, there is no real application required today in these old cars, but the steering box is an ideal candidate.
Keep flying the "W" is for Winter flag.

[Clem Clement]

Sorry. From a distance the can had 600w on a sticker( now removed.). The gallon can is John Deere )Yellow/black label 140w pc 550. No date.) Nasty looking stuff that will almost peak.