49-53 mercury flathead oil pump help

[gringo]

replaced the oil pan gasket on my 50 mercury engine and when I did I pulled the oil pump so I could scrape the gasket off, got everything assembled and no oil pressure, pulled it apart and found a lock washer jammed in the oil pump gears, the gear in the block is not turning when cranking the engine, question is what damage has been done and does the pump run off a gear on the cam?

thanks for any help

[19Fordy]

This info may help. I would remove the lock washer and restart the engine to see if it now has oil pressure. First make sure the oil pump and oil pump idler gears are turning free.

[36tbird]

In my over zealous youth as I tried to get every part in the engine as clean as possible prior to assembly, I put an oil pump together dry. The engine would not turn over when it was finally put together. The wisdom was that it was just too tight for the starter to work so we decided to tow the car, put it in gear and pop the clutch. That worked and the engine fired right up but alas without oil pressure. Finally we discovered that we had spun the oil pump drive gear on the cam shaft. I suspect that you may have done the same because of the washer stuck in the o.p. gears.

[gringo]

Originally Posted by 36tbird

In my over zealous youth as I tried to get every part in the engine as clean as possible prior to assembly, I put an oil pump together dry. The engine would not turn over when it was finally put together. The wisdom was that it was just too tight for the starter to work so we decided to tow the car, put it in gear and pop the clutch. That worked and the engine fired right up but alas without oil pressure. Finally we discovered that we had spun the oil pump drive gear on the cam shaft. I suspect that you may have done the same because of the washer stuck in the o.p. gears.

yes, the gear that drives the oil pump is not turning when engine is turned over, so now the cam needs removed to repair this ? also the oil pump wont turn by hand after I cleared the lock washer , I believe one of the shafts the gears run on is bent also

[gringo]

thanks 19fordy for that info, in the pics it shows there maybe an acces to the drive gear from the back of the block is that correct ?, trying to figure out if its something that can be repaired without dismantling the engine

[19Fordy]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

The oil pump idler gear is pressed in. It's under the cover.

[gringo]

ok, thanks 19fordy these gears are turning freely and trying to figure out how the gears come out, the large gear has a threaded hole so some type of puller is needed I suppose

[Ol' Ron]

This cannot be repaired with the cam in block. Most of these cams have a flat spot on them to prevent slipping. Unfortunately you'll have to replace the cam. Been there done that.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

This cannot be repaired with the cam in block. Most of these cams have a flat spot on them to prevent slipping. Unfortunately you'll have to replace the cam. Been there done that.

Ol Ron shouldn't he be able to look at the end of the cam/gear and tell if it has move out of position. I would think that you could see if the indexing was off and the gear slipping when there is enough resistance. Might try wedging something into the idler gear to hold it and see if the cam gear slips when you attempt to rotate the cam. Not a lot of pressure, just something to simulate the resistance of the oil pump.

[19Fordy]

" these gears are turning freely"

I am surmising that if those gears are turning freely there is no need to take them out.
Are the gears in the oil pump still turning?

[Mart]

If the smaller gear is turning freely it has broken loose from the cam. This is what you need to fix.

Can't offer any advice, it's never happened to me.

Mart.

[Walt Dupont--Me.]

A lot of cams do not have the flat spot to hole the gear ( I don't know why they didn't flat spots on all cams) There's no doubt yours don't have the flat, and with the pump bound up with the washer it has spun the gear on the cam. To pull the idle gear use a slide hammer and with a 3/8 course thread stud and thump the shaft out. The bad thing is it's probably worn the end of the cam so a new gear won't press on tight. If by any chance a new gear fit's tight (witch I dougt) have a friend use a pry bar against one of the cam lobes and with some lock tight on the end of the cam and gear drive the new gear on. Good luck. Walt

[gringo]

crap!! this isn't looking or sounding good, I got the gears out, the one on the cam was spinning, thought this would have a keyway. nope, is it supposed to have a slight flat spot ? pretty rounded on the cam end if its supposed to, doubting a new gear would fit tight.

[trainguy]

I wonder how good the engine is having been run without a oil pump?

[gringo]

Originally Posted by trainguy

I wonder how good the engine is having been run without a oil pump?

I shut it down right away when I seen no oil pressure

[Brian]

A little trick I incorporate in all my builds is to drill and tap between cam and gear and fit a grubscrew as a 'scotch key'. Actually, because I exclusively use press on type timing gear/ early cams, I do the same each end. The fitting of scotch keys, prevents any radial or longititudinal movement of gears on shafts.

[Init1]

Chances are things are bent or broken. You should bite the bullet and pull the engine so you can check the cam gear, idler gear and oil pump shaft and gear.
Might as well pull a couple rod caps and check those bearings since it ran with no oil pressure.

[RandyMettler]

I am new to Ford Barn an don't know the unwritten rules. It may be unappropriated to interject a thread with my related problems but here goes.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

I have a 8BA and also have no oil pressure on my gage at idle. When engine is reved in neutral I get about 25 to 30 on the gage. All the gages are not factory and have been switched to a 12 volt system. All the gages don't appear to read accurately. Regardless of my faulty gage suspicion, the no oil pressure cannot be ignored as far as I am concerned.

My question is should my initial attempt to see what is going on is to drop the oil pan? Will there be a oil pickup with a screen visible on the 8BA, like newer model cars? Is there other things I can check at this step when the pan is dropped?

I have only driven the car a couple of times and it runs hot. I installed a new aluminum radiator and pulled and checked the water pumps and inspected the inside of the block for blockage and set the tappet lash on the valves. I advanced the timing slightly. All good. This leads me to believe the overheating is an oil pressure related problem.

Any comments would be appreciated.

Gringo, I hope your solution is as painless as possible.

Regards,

Randy

[19Fordy]

Randy, Can you install a mechanical gauge? The one on the dash may be "off".

[RandyMettler]

I am not opposed to that idea. Do the simplest test first. Where would the oil pressure sensor be located on a 8BA block? If you know, please reply.

Regards

[flatjack9]

It's on the rear of the engine on the driver's side. Not easy to get at. I'm sure someone could post a picture.

[JSeery]

See the fittings at the rear of the block next to where the bellhousing bolts on? On this one the tubing out of the top goes to the oil filter and the one out of the side goes to the oil gauge. They are both connected to the same passage internally. The second post is an early engine (59a), but the external oil fittings are in the same location. In this drawing the oil filter line is connected to the side and the oil pressure sender is connected to the top outlet. Again, it is the same passage internally.

[RandyMettler]

oh yah. I see it on my 8BA. I wondered what that was. It has a long 12 inch vertical tube with what I will term a "chrome bell" mounted at the top. There is an electrical wire attached to the top of the bell. I don't have a top mounted oil filter. Mine is on the bottom driver side of the block. Is it possible to replace this electrical sending unit with a mechanical unit. I will post pictures tomorrow if needed. Are there better mechanical units than others?

I will also post pictures of my dash gages. I stumbled across them on line and they are not cheap. If I remember correctly around 500 dollars. Of course, this does not indicate quality, only selling price. I would like input on barners real world experience with the product.

Thanks

[cas3]

the "bell" is the original oil pressure sending unit. it has a square boss on the bottom that takes a 9/16 wrench to unscrew it, exposing 3/8 pipe thread to install any oil pressure gadget you like

[JSeery]

Sounds like the sender unit is on an upright tube. What if anything is attached to the side opening? If it was me I would attach a fairly cheap mechanical gauge to double check the electric sender and gauge. Cheaper and easier than pulling an engine.

[tubman]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

On the back of the block, on the upper left hand (USA driver's) side. There will be another line there for the oil filter (if equipped), but the sender location should be obvious if you look in that general area.

[flatjack9]

Originally Posted by cas3

the "bell" is the original oil pressure sending unit. it has a square boss on the bottom that takes a 9/16 wrench to unscrew it, exposing 3/8 pipe thread to install any oil pressure gadget you like

I believe that is 1/4" pipe.

[cas3]

ha! yes jack, i just got on to correct myself, and saw you beat me! sorry, memory has intermittent bad connections these days

[RandyMettler]

Geeze guys, we need to get these pipe sizes correct. Having to walk to the tool box twice is just not acceptable.

Simply amazing. You guys can remember the correct pipe sizes for parts that most people couldn't even recognize. Cas3, I think your memory is better than most.


Cheers

[Merc Cruzer]

Originally Posted by RandyMettler

oh yah. I see it on my 8BA. I wondered what that was. It has a long 12 inch vertical tube with what I will term a "chrome bell" mounted at the top. There is an electrical wire attached to the top of the bell. I don't have a top mounted oil filter. Mine is on the bottom driver side of the block. Is it possible to replace this electrical sending unit with a mechanical unit. I will post pictures tomorrow if needed. Are there better mechanical units than others?

I will also post pictures of my dash gages. I stumbled across them on line and they are not cheap. If I remember correctly around 500 dollars. Of course, this does not indicate quality, only selling price. I would like input on barners real world experience with the product.

Thanks

If your "bell" sending unit has a "dot" on the back it should be at the top of the bell when installed. It does have an up arrow on the unit. I have found it will effect the readings if it is straight not up.

[Ol' Ron]

A number of years ago I started an old engine on a tire, just to see how good it was. I had an oil pressure auge connected to the back of the block. Engine started right away and the oil pressure gage only read a few lbs at idle and 30 plus when reved up. I took the gauge off and started the engine. At idle the stream of oil coming out of the port went across the yard, sure pissed the wife off.

[RandyMettler]

I have attached pictures of my dash gages and oil sending unit mounted and up close on a bench. It may be a cheap generic one, there are no direction marks for mounting. I plan on going to the parts store to get a mechanical unit.

As far as the gages go, does anyone that recognize them have opinions their accuracy?

[JSeery]

Don't think that is an original Ford sending unit, it is most likely the sender that matches your gauges. It is also very, very likely that your gauges are reading correctly. But because it easy to double check the readings with a second mechanical one I think it would be worth the effort.
Love the look of your gauges!

[Ggmac]

Agree , non factory gauges . 12 volt to boot . Probably reading correct . Just get a mechanical to double check . You do have your gauges connected to 12 volt correctly ?

[Ggmac]

Randy , I see from your other posts a fuel /carb problem , any chance you thinned the oil with gas , or did you always have low oil pressure ?

[RandyMettler]

I change the oil after each test fire just to be safe because my fuel pump was leaking into my oil. Thanks to all the barners that pointed me in the correct direction, I have since purchased a new Charlie NY pump. Once I installed it I changed the oil again.

The other odd thing is, my understanding the 8BA blocks take 4 quarts of oil. My dipstick reads full at slightly over 3. This include preloading the filter before I thread it into the block. I don't know if my dipstick is incorrect for my 8BA block. I have attached pictures for those who know the correct style. It measures 18-1/2" overall.

The low oil pressure issue is not new. I bought the car because the compression is roughly 110 on all cylinders. I have only driven it a couple of times and I need to verify the cause of the low readings on the guage. No need to trash the compression if it is something as simple as a clogged pickup.

I was, and slightly still are having carb issues. I made great progress yesterday thanks again to all the barners help.

[tubman]

Are you sure you have the right dipstick, tube, and oil pan combination? There was a discussion about the different types of dipsticks and tubes on hear a few weeks ago. When I put a '51 Merc engine in my '51 Ford, I had to use the Ford oil pan. Without thinking, I used the Merc dipstick and tube in the Ford pan. I ended up with a problem like yours. The dipstick has to match the tube and the whole setup must match the pan. A lot of parts have ended up getting changed around on these cars over the last 70 or so years, and anything is possible.

[RandyMettler]

In response to your question Tubman.

Great point! I have the ford truck oil pan assemble originally from the 8RT. It has the large cleanout at the bottom.

So is 4 quarts pretty standard for the 8BA? If so, I need to dump the rest of the 4th quart in.

[RandyMettler]

JSeery, In response to your advice

"Sounds like the sender unit is on an upright tube. What if anything is attached to the side opening? If it was me I would attach a fairly cheap mechanical gauge to double check the electric sender and gauge. Cheaper and easier than pulling an engine".



Great advice! I would be on my back under the oil pan right now without your post. I purchased and rigged up a cheap mechanical guage like you suggested. The new guage reads 27-30 at idle an roughly 55 when reeved. Not sure if that is great readings, but better than zero!! My dash guage read zero at idle and roughly 15 when reeved with the electrical unit.

I guess I need to buy a new electrical oil sending unit or contact the manufacture of my aftermarket guage for suggestions. These gauges are new and should be accurate.

Thanks again JSeery

[RandyMettler]

Ggmac in response to your question,

"Agree , non factory gauges . 12 volt to boot . Probably reading correct . Just get a mechanical to double check . You do have your gauges connected to 12 volt correctly ? "


I did not install the electrical in the car so don't know absolutely if they are wired properly. The dash guage does read oil pressure, but not correctly. They do light up so chances are they are correct. All the other items in the guage read incorrectly. For instance, the battery guage is pegged but the alternator is not overcharging my battery. The electrical is all new, the interior was just completely re-finished by previous owner.

The battery I have is 12volts

That brings me back to a previous question does anyone have experience with these gauges-good/bad?

[JSeery]

Your oil pressure readings sound about perfect to me!

[cas3]

is this car in the building stages or has it been on the road for while? if all gauges are reading incorrect i would think there is a ground problem. body and dash all grounded good to the frame and battery?

[RandyMettler]

Cas3,
In response to your question:
"is this car in the building stages or has it been on the road for while? if all gauges are reading incorrect i would think there is a ground problem. body and dash all grounded good to the frame and battery?"

I am glad you asked that question. The car has been on the road. The battery negative is grounded directly to the body. I found that weird. The body is grounded to the engine. Every time I start the car to test my changes I get a shock from the door when I get out of the car. I think it is a ground problem but cleaned all the connections. I never have owned a car that shocks me every time I get out of it. It does not shock me when I get into and out without starting the motor.

[tubman]

The dipsticks may be marked. I have seen them with 8BA and 8CM markings, as well as no markings. I'm sure I haven't seen them all. I have never seen a tube with markings. You may have to get it running with 5 quarts of oil in the engine and filter and mark the dipstick yourself.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by RandyMettler

Cas3,
In response to your question:
"is this car in the building stages or has it been on the road for while? if all gauges are reading incorrect i would think there is a ground problem. body and dash all grounded good to the frame and battery?"

I am glad you asked that question. The car has been on the road. The battery negative is grounded directly to the body. I found that weird. The body is grounded to the engine. Every time I start the car to test my changes I get a shock from the door when I get out of the car. I think it is a ground problem but cleaned all the connections. I never have owned a car that shocks me every time I get out of it. It does not shock me when I get into and out without starting the motor.

Need a ground to the frame as well. 12v really shouldn't shock you, are you sure there is not some leakage from a coil wire or plug wire?

[RandyMettler]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

JSeery,

No, not sure about the coil wire or spark plugs but they seem to be new. The car was recently built from a shell. New motor, interior, glass, etc. Don't know how I would determine the leakage. As far as I can determine there is no ground to the frame. but throughout the entire car you would have to think that would happen at some point intended or not.

[JSeery]

One quick and easy check is to watch the engine running in the dark. Wiggle the wires around a little and see if there is any arcing. Sometimes it looks like an electrical storm under the hood.

[RandyMettler]

I have heard of that test before. Its dark now and I am going to my garage.

No, no storm all is black, wiggling and all.

My car looks exactly like your avatar right now, only my radiator is installed.

[cas3]

clean a spot on the frame some place and vise grip a wire there, then attach the other end to one of the screws holding the gauge cluster to the dash board,if its metal, if not then to the body. see if the gauge readings change

[cas3]

in fact, i would run several test grounds. battery to engine, battery to frame, engine to frame, etc. if this thing has been restored, you have a bunch of painted surfaces and some thing is not letting current thru. i know you would think it has to touch some where, but you have new rubber, new paint, new body mounts etc and some times it just isnt a clean path for current any where. my pickup was burning up a voltage reg every 6 months. i put a big battery cable from the front clip to the motor, right next to the factory one that showed no sign of corrosion, and it fixed it. grounds do funny things

[dmar836]

This one just died off with no follow up. Hope all is well with Randy. Last active on 6-8-19

[Bill OH]

I have had oil pressure senders go bad giving law pressure readings. New sender solved the problem, What happens when you ground the connection on your sender and the ignition switch on? The gauge is only a voltmeter.