Engine Serial Numbers as VIN

[fixitphil]

First time Post: My A has used the engine number as the VIN. If I change engines what happens to the VIN?

[95GOOSE]

Originally Posted by fixitphil

First time Post: My A has used the engine number as the VIN. If I change engines what happens to the VIN?

I'd like to know this as well.

[KGBnut]

That answer can vary greatly by state. Including your location (even a general location) would help get you better answers.

[Joe K]

Solutions to this have varied. Some grind down the pad and re-stamp the old numbers. Some attempt to raise the body and get officialdom to accept the frame number as the VID ("VID Confirmation" its called here in Cow Hampshire and they send an officer to your house.)

Some make an aluminum plate showing the removed engine number (similar to VID attachments found below the windshield on modern cars) and attach it with pop rivets just below the "Ford Motor Company" plate on the firewall.

The chassis number is probably the hardest to do and the least likely to stick officially. Its not like the number can be confirmed at any sale or transaction - or even a car accident/insurance claim.

I would give the pop rivet plate a try. You don't have to say you put the plate there yourself. Or that it even matches the chassis number (MANY Model As are on their second or third engines and officialdom didn't pay that much attention until car title became an issue. )

Here in Cow Hampshire I still use the chassis number and have a blank engine - but I have not sold the car or had an accident with it.

Joe K

[ursus]

Some have stamped the engine number on the visible surface of the drivers side engine mount, where it and the engine number can be easily viewed by lifting the hood on that side. This is close enough to the frame location to satisfy the inspection and avoids having to lift the body.

[henry's 31]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

In Georgia you have to fill a form with the Vin Number and you take it to the local DMV to make the change effective. But like stated above, every state is different.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by henry's 31

In Georgia you have to fill a form with the Vin Number and you take it to the local DMV to make the change effective. But like stated above, every state is different.

YES, Henry, every state has different sized "HOOPS" to jump through, if you're "FAT", you might not make it
Bill Skinny

[Tom Wesenberg]

I would use a temporary engine while I rebuild the original engine to reinstall.
If the original block is total junk, then the new block would get the same number as the junk block.

[Joe K]

In Cow Hampshire one does not need a title to sell or register a car WITHIN STATE more than 10 years old.

My 1930 AA Chassis (with 26K original miles) was sold to a buyer in Texas - and part of the deal was I would provide a NH Title for it - which would speed immeasurably his getting a replacement title in Texas.

Getting a replacement title in New Hampshire is a simple matter of filling out a form - waiting for up to six weeks for a title search to be done based on your submitted VID, and then having an officer of the court (local Police Officer) "verify" the VID.

She called (woman officer) looking for an appointment to do the verification. "Come on over now if you want" I said. A cruiser backed into my driveway a few minutes later.

She was very thorough. She did ask me where the number was located. "Every antique car is different" she confessed. At my suggestion she looked at both the engine number AND the frame number (which were identical) using a drop light held at different angles. The numbers I would consider "better than average" based on how they appeared. She did ask me what I considered to be the number based on what I saw. I think she was verifying both her eyes AND mine lest there be any disagreement which might hold up paperwork. I suggested a "rubbing" of the engine number just to be sure - which I did for her. We both read the engine rubbing to the same number conclusion.

And that engine number became the number. A few weeks later I had the NH replacement title which I forwarded to the buyer in Texas (and got my $150 withheld from the price as that is what he thought it would cost him to process a Texas replacement title.)

Joe K

[ursus]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

I would use a temporary engine while I rebuild the original engine to reinstall.
If the original block is total junk, then the new block would get the same number as the junk block.

I have saved my original junk block just in case anybody ever questions the provenance of the number. It works well as a doorstop for the barn and it is unlikely to be stolen.

[California Travieso]

Originally Posted by ursus

I have saved my original junk block just in case anybody ever questions the provenance of the number. It works well as a doorstop for the barn and it is unlikely to be stolen.

Ursus,

Best answer I've heard yet!

Another solution would be to buy one of Tod's new blocks and stamp the old number on the new block.

David Serrano

[ronn]

well Joe,
we arent all as lucky as you folks in NH.

you have one of the easiest titling states in the nation.

cant do what you suggest in about 45 of the other states.

[Charlie Stephens]

Based on what California used to do I would expect that the DMV would want to place a VIN tag of their own on the door jam (and a couple of places on the frame). Call your DMV and ask them. Long ago you just filled out a form at DMV changing to the new number. There is probably an easy way to accomplish what you want and taking short cuts will just get you, or the next owner, in trouble.

Charlie Stephens

[aermotor]

As I have posted before, any time you have a body off and can verify the frame number and it matches the engine number (or not) call for a VIN inspector to get a letter of verification - which was free in SC. Get a new VIN verification if you change the engine.

John

[Barry B./ Ma.]

The engine number became the VIN when the engine was placed in the frame and that should always be the VIN for that car even if the engine has been replaced at least that's how I see it. I go by the frame number and that should be on the engine pad and if it isn't it should be restamped on the engine.

[Chris Haynes]

If you car is stolen and the engine removed how do you prove ownership?
I am going through this with the Tudor I just bought. I'll have to lift the body to expose the frame number.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

IF you ever have a car STOLEN, you'll be glad most states are PICKY about this stuff!!!
Bill Californya

[fordcragar]

Years ago when I brought a car in from out out state, the Washington State Patrolman noted the VIN was the engine number. Then he told me to see if I could find a number on the frame, bring the car back in and they would change the VIN to that number. After that he said if I couldn't find a number anywhere, that they would assign a VIN number to the frame.

[Bruce Adams]

Some purchase a plate with their VIN on it for the firewall, while others find an engine re-manufacturer able to supply their VIN with the rebuilt engine.

[harleynut]

In Pennsylvania the VIN is on the title. I never have been asked to verify a VIN. I did notice that my VIN has been ground off the motor. Should I try to re stamp the # on the motor?

[fordcragar]

Originally Posted by fordcragar

Years ago when I brought a car in from out out state, the Washington State Patrolman noted the VIN was the engine number. Then he told me to see if I could find a number on the frame, bring the car back in and they would change the VIN to that number. After that he said if I couldn't find a number anywhere, that they would assign a VIN number to the frame.

When I brought this car into the state, the VIN number on the engine was a number LB123XXX; which didn't look like any normal Model A VIN. Someone told me it was probably a remanufactured engine out of the Long Beach California plant. The people that I bought it from bought the car in the late 1930's.

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

I would use a temporary engine while I rebuild the original engine to reinstall.
If the original block is total junk, then the new block would get the same number as the junk block.

In all states altering any manufacturers identification number is a felony.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

In all states altering any manufacturers identification number is a felony.

Yup, does it keep people from doing it, no buts it's illegal.

Think about this, you buy a numbers matching car in a state that no longer requires a title. You spend years restoring the vehicle but unbeknownst to you the guy you bought the car from found the old title and sold it on ebay. The guy that bought the title used it to register a car he built. You finish the car jump through all the hoops to title it in your state only to find the number is already in use. Do you think the officials might look at you as trying to defraud them by trying to use a vin that is already in use?

How about this one. Someone gets into a car accident. The car is totaled. They buy the same make, model, and year car and swap out the vin tag. Legal or not? Who are they hurting by making the new car have the same vin as the damaged car.

[Barry B./ Ma.]

Originally Posted by harleynut

In Pennsylvania the VIN is on the title. I never have been asked to verify a VIN. I did notice that my VIN has been ground off the motor. Should I try to re stamp the # on the motor?

I would have a plate made to match the frame number and attach it to the pad on the motor as long as that is the true VIN on the title and frame. I see no harm in doing this as the number isn't being altered.

[Squally]

How common is it to not have an engine number? Ours doesn't have one.

[eagle]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

The Vin number stays with the CAR, not the engine. It gets murky with the model A because the Vin was originally derived from the engine. However, once the Vin is assigned to the VEHICLE, the engine number is just that, the engine number. It is not illegal to re stamp the engine, and was/is done routinely at rebuild shops. To help in recovery of a stolen vehicle, the Vin number should be stamped in several places on the vehicle.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by Squally

How common is it to not have an engine number? Ours doesn't have one.

Not that unusual. Between Ford unrecorded production (which some surmise exists) and remanufactured blocks there are a fair number of non-numbered blocks around.

My own experience may be a guide. I originally had a RED painted replacement engine in my Model A. Sears Roebuck offered replacement engines are seen painted red and mine may or may not be original Ford production turned over to Sears as the number pad area is very obviously NOT been altered - the boss appears full thickness.

Another source of escaped engines may be Gordon-Smith Company (Bowling Green KY) who starting in the 1930s used surplus Ford engines to make gas engine air compressors using an ingenious aftermarket head. The one original GS Compressor I've seen had the same non-milled number pad. (GS sold the heads separately as a "kit" to make the nose of a Model A car into an air compressor - My GS compressor is made from a numbered Model B engine.)

And there was the Gleaner/Combine market where a lot of Ford 4 cylinder engines were used. IIRC most of these may be Ford "diamond" blocks? We don't have many gleaners/combines here in the northeast.

Reman blocks may or may not have had a previous Ford number removed, or *altered* or left as is.

Until car theft became a problem, or rather VID tracking became seen as a passable theft deterrent solution, a car VID wasn't nearly so important as having the keys or the registration plate paperwork in your possession.

Some view having a "blank" engine as a po$itive since for $160 one can buy the period correct number stamps and "make" a OEM "match" with the frame. Not that anyone could really tell otherwise with the body installed.

Joe K

[russcochiolo]

I have a Diamond B engine with no stamped numbers. The casting tag indicates 1936. Nothing in the paperwork matched, not even the license plate that was on the car. I discovered the BB numbers on the bell housing and a friendly Peace Officer accepted them. Now everything matches. Hallelujah! I have heard/read somewhere that BB blocks that were intended as replacements were not stamped. I don't know if that is accurate or not. I have stamped a number plate and attached it to the driver's side firewall to make it easy to see. The bell housing number can be seen from there, but it does take some close looking and I wanted to make it easy for the next inspector. It took a total of 8 months to jump through all the California hoops. It feels good to have it all done. It took another 8 months to get the YOM plates authorized. Gotta luv CA! Russ

[fixitphil]

Thanks for all the input guys. Very helpful.
As you probably guessed by now I'm in Visalia, CA.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by russcochiolo

I have a Diamond B engine with no stamped numbers. The casting tag indicates 1936. Nothing in the paperwork matched, not even the license plate that was on the car. I discovered the BB numbers on the bell housing and a friendly Peace Officer accepted them. Now everything matches. Hallelujah! I have heard/read somewhere that BB blocks that were intended as replacements were not stamped. I don't know if that is accurate or not. I have stamped a number plate and attached it to the driver's side firewall to make it easy to see. The bell housing number can be seen from there, but it does take some close looking and I wanted to make it easy for the next inspector. It took a total of 8 months to jump through all the California hoops. It feels good to have it all done. It took another 8 months to get the YOM plates authorized. Gotta luv CA! Russ

None of the B or BB engines were stamped at the factory although the cast pad was still on the engine. The numbers were stamped into the flywheel housing. There may have been a few exceptions if a state required an engine number.

Charlie Stephens

[Charlie Stephens]

You guys are lucky that I don't work for the DMV. If someone came in with a Model A that had a VIN tag in the "wrong" place, like on the firewall, I would call the tow truck and have it impounded. Next I would have a state employee pull the body and charge them for the labor. I wonder if there are others out there like me? As bad as this sounds think of the fact that it might result in a stolen car being returned to its rightful owner.

Charlie Stephens

[Rex_A_Lott]

Originally Posted by fixitphil

Thanks for all the input guys. Very helpful.
As you probably guessed by now I'm in Visalia, CA.

Sometimes it helps to have that info in your profile, especially in cases like this where the laws vary from state to state. Good Luck

[ursus]

Originally Posted by Barry B./ Ma.

The engine number became the VIN when the engine was placed in the frame and that should always be the VIN for that car even if the engine has been replaced at least that's how I see it. I go by the frame number and that should be on the engine pad and if it isn't it should be restamped on the engine.

What happens if you have a frame number that is from a different year than the body style you have? It is possible to have a 1931 body on a 1928 frame. My first Model A was assembled from parts in the early 60's. When presented with a 1931 body on a 1928 frame powered by a 1930 numbered engine, the Oregon DMV looked up the only visible number in a binder they had and titled the car as a 1930. For some reason, they weren't interested in the frame number even though I told them that it didn't match. I doubt that would happen nowadays. That car is still running around, and a series of owners have added and subtracted parts with the result that it appears to be a 1930 Model-A until you start poking around.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by ursus

What happens if you have a frame number that is from a different year than the body style you have? It is possible to have a 1931 body on a 1928 frame. My first Model A was assembled from parts in the early 60's. When presented with a 1931 body on a 1928 frame powered by a 1930 numbered engine, the Oregon DMV looked up the only visible number in a binder they had and titled the car as a 1930. For some reason, they weren't interested in the frame number even though I told them that it didn't match. I doubt that would happen nowadays. That car is still running around, and a series of owners have added and subtracted parts with the result that it appears to be a 1930 Model-A until you start poking around.

My experience (Officer Judy above) would be they would take the easiest number to inspect and confirm. If the paperwork indicates an engine number - the engine number WILL be the number. If the paperwork indicates a frame number - they'll probably take your word - or ask to come back after you expose the number for their confirmation.

Come to think of it - that's where I am now with my Model A CC pickup. It is a March 1929 truck with a consistent frame number with (now) a 1930 engine. But the title shows this to be VID March 1929. The original red sears engine - sans number, it's a well worn virgin - is sitting waiting for re-build. And who knows where the original engine is?

It might be out there in someone's 1930 car? With its own identical VID taken from the engine?

As to other inconsistencies connected with a title search - you'll probably end up with a title showing all these other extraneous and possibly erroneous facts. But its only a title - what counts for sales/insurance/officialdom IS the number.

Most people interested in Model A don't let the details - or their mish-mash - hold them back.

Joe K

[eagle]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

You guys are lucky that I don't work for the DMV. If someone came in with a Model A that had a VIN tag in the "wrong" place, like on the firewall, I would call the tow truck and have it impounded. Next I would have a state employee pull the body and charge them for the labor. I wonder if there are others out there like me? As bad as this sounds think of the fact that it might result in a stolen car being returned to its rightful owner.

Charlie Stephens

The engine number is not the vin number, it is the number from which the original vin was derived. You can legally stamp the legal vin number anywhere you wish on a vehicle. The problem is when people just take it upon themselves to assign their own number, and proceed to represent it as a legally assigned vin.

[Mike V. Florida]

The number on the engine is not just a number on an engine. It is the location of the VIN. No way would you get away with removing the VIN tag on a modern car and stamp that number in another location. Same goes with the A.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by eagle

The Vin number stays with the CAR, not the engine. It gets murky with the model A because the Vin was originally derived from the engine. However, once the Vin is assigned to the VEHICLE, the engine number is just that, the engine number. It is not illegal to re stamp the engine, and was/is done routinely at rebuild shops. To help in recovery of a stolen vehicle, the Vin number should be stamped in several places on the vehicle.

Let's check that statement out,

Pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 2321 whoever buys, receives, possesses, or obtains control of, with intent to sell or otherwise dispose of, a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part, knowing that an identification number for such motor vehicle or part has been removed, obliterated, tampered with, or altered, could be fined or imprisoned for up to ten years.

http://www.vintageautomotive.net/?tag=engine-restamping

Do it at your own peril!

[phonconn]

The frame was obviously the Vehicle Identification Number and when the chassis made it down the line to get an engine then the engine was then stamped to match the chassis number as most all Model A folks are aware. Move forward 10-15 years and many engine rebuilders just exchanged engines not giving any thought to the new engine number. I agree it is best to change the new engine number to match the old engine number and then you don't have to lift the body to show the frame VIN. In Missouri if the car is an in state car then you don't need to have the VIN verified BUT if it come from out of state then the VIN has to be verified by an inspection station and is called an ID/OD inspection. I just purchased a 28(May 1928 firewall stamped) but the engine and VIN are of the engine number which is a 29 serial number and many of the parts used in the restoration were 29 parts.
If I was changing engines today I would NOT grind off the old engine number BUT pound the numbers back into the block and restamp it with the correct old number on the old block taking pics to show the before and after and saving the old block as stated from other members in case there should ever be a problem. Driving the numbers back flush with the engine number pad will alleviate any future problems with possible fraud issues. It is easy enough to pound the numbers back into the pad and keep the * and A intact.
As an afterthought I have often thought of stamping the VIN onto the bottom of the frame on the underneath of the frame rail just in case someone needed to see a frame number. Why Ford ever put the frame number where it would be permanently covered up wasn't a very good idea and causes a lot of hassle if you have to lift a body to show the frame number.
Back in the day nobody was that concerned about matching numbers as it was only a $50 car but now with the value rising and theft of our cars happening more often I can see why officials have such stricter motor vehicle laws.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by phonconn

The frame was obviously the Vehicle Identification Number and when the chassis made it down the line to get an engine then the engine was then stamped to match the chassis number as most all Model A folks are aware. Move forward 10-15 years and many engine rebuilders just exchanged engines not giving any thought to the new engine number. I agree it is best to change the new engine number to match the old engine number and then you don't have to lift the body to show the frame VIN. In Missouri if the car is an in state car then you don't need to have the VIN verified BUT if it come from out of state then the VIN has to be verified by an inspection station and is called an ID/OD inspection. I just purchased a 28(May 1928 firewall stamped) but the engine and VIN are of the engine number which is a 29 serial number and many of the parts used in the restoration were 29 parts.
If I was changing engines today I would NOT grind off the old engine number BUT pound the numbers back into the block and restamp it with the correct old number on the old block taking pics to show the before and after and saving the old block as stated from other members in case there should ever be a problem. Driving the numbers back flush with the engine number pad will alleviate any future problems with possible fraud issues. It is easy enough to pound the numbers back into the pad and keep the * and A intact.
As an afterthought I have often thought of stamping the VIN onto the bottom of the frame on the underneath of the frame rail just in case someone needed to see a frame number. Why Ford ever put the frame number where it would be permanently covered up wasn't a very good idea and causes a lot of hassle if you have to lift a body to show the frame number.
Back in the day nobody was that concerned about matching numbers as it was only a $50 car but now with the value rising and theft of our cars happening more often I can see why officials have such stricter motor vehicle laws.

That is definitely a story I have never heard before and I have been into Model A's since 1962. It has always been my understanding that the engine was assigned a number when it passed final inspection. After it was installed in the chassis the chassis was stamped with the number on the engine. As far as messing with the VIN number in any way I wouldn't do it. Call you local DMV and get the paperwork straightened out right. If it was California they would probably want to put their own number on a plate on the door jam and another one on the frame.

Charlie Stephens

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by fixitphil

Thanks for all the input guys. Very helpful.
As you probably guessed by now I'm in Visalia, CA.

Read CA vehicle code 10751 and all the 10751 letter codes within it. Altering any manufacturers identification in CA is a felony. You can lose your car.

[jmeckel]

Maybe try reading the Federal law about this, and read all of it, there are exceptions that allow the re-marking.
18 U.S. Code § 511

[Chris Haynes]

California Vehicle Code Section 10751
(a) No person shall knowingly buy, sell, offer for sale, receive, or have in his or her possession, any vehicle, or component part thereof, from which any serial or identification number, including, but not limited to, any number used for registration purposes, that is affixed by the manufacturer to the vehicle or component part, in whatever manner deemed proper by the manufacturer, has been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed, unless the vehicle or component part has attached thereto an identification number assigned or approved by the department in lieu of the manufacturer's number.
(b) Whenever a vehicle described in subdivision (a), including a vehicle assembled with any component part which is in violation of subdivision (a), comes into the custody of a peace officer, it shall be destroyed, sold, or otherwise disposed of under the conditions as provided in an order by the court having jurisdiction.  No court order providing for disposition shall be issued unless the person from whom the property was seized, and all claimants to the property whose interest or title is on registration records in the Department of Motor Vehicles, are provided a postseizure hearing by the court having jurisdiction within 90 days after the seizure.  This subdivision shall not apply with respect to a seized vehicle or component part used as evidence in any criminal action or proceeding.  Nothing in this section shall, however, preclude the return of a seized vehicle or a component part to the owner by the seizing agency following presentation of satisfactory evidence of ownership and, if determined necessary, upon the assignment of an identification number to the vehicle or component part by the department.
(c) Whenever a vehicle described in subdivision (a) comes into the custody of a peace officer, the person from whom the property was seized, and all claimants to the property whose interest or title is on registration records in the Department of Motor Vehicles, shall be notified within five days, excluding Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays, after the seizure, of the date, time, and place of the hearing required in subdivision (b).  The notice shall contain the information specified in subdivision (d).
(d) Whenever a peace officer seizes a vehicle described in subdivision (a), the person from whom the property was seized shall be provided a notice of impoundment of the vehicle which shall serve as a receipt and contain the following information:
(1) Name and address of person from whom the property was seized.
(2) A statement that the vehicle seized has been impounded for investigation of a violation of Section 10751 of the California Vehicle Code and that the property will be released upon a determination that the serial or identification number has not been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed, or upon the presentation of satisfactory evidence of ownership of the vehicle or a component part, if no other person claims an interest in the property;  otherwise, a hearing regarding the disposition of the vehicle shall take place in the proper court.
(3) A statement that the person from whom the property was seized, and all claimants to the property whose interest or title is on registration records in the Department of Motor Vehicles, will receive written notification of the date, time, and place of the hearing within five days, excluding Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays, after the seizure.
(4) Name and address of the law enforcement agency where evidence of ownership of the vehicle or component part may be presented.
(5) A statement of the contents of Section 10751 of the Vehicle Code.
(e) A hearing on the disposition of the property shall be held by the superior court within 90 days after the seizure.  The hearing shall be before the court without a jury.  A proceeding under this section is a limited civil case.
(1) If the evidence reveals either that the serial or identification number has not been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed or that the number has been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed but satisfactory evidence of ownership has been presented to the seizing agency or court, the property shall be released to the person entitled thereto.  Nothing in this section precludes the return of the vehicle or a component part to a good faith purchaser following presentation of satisfactory evidence of ownership thereof upon the assignment of an identification number to the vehicle or component part by the department.
(2) If the evidence reveals that the identification number has been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed, and satisfactory evidence of ownership has not been presented, the vehicle shall be destroyed, sold, or otherwise disposed of as provided by court order.
(3) At the hearing, the seizing agency has the burden of establishing that the serial or identification number has been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed and that no satisfactory evidence of ownership has been presented.
(f) This section does not apply to a scrap metal processor engaged primarily in the acquisition, processing, and shipment of ferrous and nonferrous scrap, and who receives dismantled vehicles from licensed dismantlers, licensed junk collectors, or licensed junk dealers as scrap metal for the purpose of recycling the dismantled vehicles for their metallic content, the end product of which is the production of material for recycling and remelting purposes for steel mills, foundries, smelters, and refiners.
- See more at: http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/vehicle-....HOkOXxC7.dpuf

[ronn]

In Pennsylvania the VIN is on the title. I never have been asked to verify a VIN. I did notice that my VIN has been ground off the motor. Should I try to re stamp the # on the motor?


why not just place a period correct repro tag on the cowl with the number?

this way you are not "doctoring" anything.

[Charlie Stephens]

duplicate post, where did the delete button go???

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by ronn

In Pennsylvania the VIN is on the title. I never have been asked to verify a VIN. I did notice that my VIN has been ground off the motor. Should I try to re stamp the # on the motor?


why not just place a period correct repro tag on the cowl with the number?

this way you are not "doctoring" anything.

I live in California (very important, laws very by state). I was involved in a car accident (drunk driver turned left in front of me). The police officer recorded the VIN when he took the report. It was nice to be able to show the insurance company that the car I had repaired and was filing claim on was the one they insured (that way they paid for it). Police frequently check VINs when they write traffic tickets. Placing a "period correct repro tag on the cowl" could easily cause a knowledgeable (yes some of them collect antique cars) police officer to look further into the ownership of the vehicle. The correct way, in California, is to have the DMV attach one of their tags to the door jam.

Charlie Stephens