The Ford Barn

Mercmarc · 07-19-2020, 09:53 PM

Hello Bored&Stroked,

I believe you have hit the proverbial nail on the head perfectly. I do not see a hole in the end of the cam adapter where oil under pressure would limit metal to metal contact on the timing case cover and what you are describing makes perfect sense. Yes the mounting bolts did hit and grind away a section of the cast iron cover.
Your explanation of the related oil filtration system is also spot on. :-) And I concur, three main bearings and only two benefiting from a filter equals 66% filtration. This is why I was so upset over finding the amount of metal missing and knowing where it ended up, that the rest of the engine has little value or reliability without complete teardown, cleaning and evaluation.
Your explanation about the importance of and changes Ford made regarding to cam thrust is greatly appreciated and very helpful. My abilities to build an engine today have since passed and I will be leaning on professionals to do so as much as it pains me. I have done the majority of the other work on the car minus the overhauling of a rear end, the upholstery and paint. Frame off redo to create a daily driver for my wife and I.

I am contacting H&H on Monday to see what if anything they can do for this engine. If nothing is the result, then I will be making other tough decisions.

Thank you very much for detailing what I knew and saw but did not know why.

Sincerely and respectfully

Marc

Bored&Stroked · 07-20-2020, 12:10 PM

I'm not one to bash anybody, but when one is paying an engine builder to build you an engine - they should at least know "what works with what".

And if the customer wants a bad/wrong combination, you refuse to do it. And when you make a mistake (and we all do), you make it right . . . simple business 101.

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.

cadillac512 · 07-20-2020, 05:15 PM

I wonder why an early camshaft + adapter was used (twice!) rather than the correct 8BA style which is correct for this engine. That really puzzles me...

Terry

Mercmarc · 07-20-2020, 08:12 PM

Hello Terry, cadillac512
Great question and one I intend to ask the builder. Especially after the fist one failed. I am also curious if these are the only two engines he built this way.

Respectfully

Marc

Mercmarc · 08-03-2020, 03:29 PM

Hello To everyone who weighed in on this cam movement thread.

Wrap up:

The cause of the cam movement as mentioned by several, is a case of using the wrong parts for the application without the proper modifications. Early cam and adapter with no provision for oiling the front of the cam and distributor area. I have yet to determine why the builder chose to use the parts he did, but says he will stand behind his build.

I am very grateful to all who participated in this thread.

Respectfully

Marc

tubman · 08-03-2020, 03:32 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Marc,

Thanks for getting back to us on this. It's always good to find out what really was going on.

Mercmarc · 02-04-2022, 08:55 PM

Hello All,

Camshaft movement update on 2/4/2022.

Firstly, please accept my apologies for such a long delay for an update. No excuses just life happens.

Summary of discovery,

I took the engine to H&H and worked with Mike explaining the situation. What Mike found was the cam, the cam gears, crank gear and the distributor drive gear were not a good combination for this engine. (previous builder made the same mistake twice). The bolt on distributor drive gear adapter should have been drilled for an oil passage to provide the cushion and lubrication to the inside face of the timing gear cover.

The cam gear and crank gear were the later model that created a forward thrust. With using an early model cam and the distributor drive gear adaptor without an oil passage there was no cushion or lubrication between the end of the distributor drive gear and timing gear cover. Mike found a number of other issues with this motor and repaired them as required. The engine is back in the car for the 3rd time and all appears to be going well with a current odometer reading of 575 miles. All break in fluids have been changed and we are on the road.

Again, I want to, and do, thank everyone for your ideas, thoughts, inputs, questions, contributions of all kinds and support. A collective effort garnered a wonderful result.

Sincerely and Respectfully

Marc

cadillac512 · 02-04-2022, 11:21 PM

That's great,Marc...glad to hear you're back going again.

Terry

Desoto291Hemi · 02-05-2022, 09:08 AM

Great job,,,,updating the final solution .
It’s always good to hear what fixed the problem.
Congratulations on getting it back on the road,,,,,,,many happy miles to you .

Tommy

Harry Holst · 03-10-2022, 01:21 PM

Ford Camshaft Endplay. Typically controlled by crankshaft & camshaft gear helix, pushing forward or backwards. Welding an aluminum nut to front cover and installing a bolt c/w locknut and adjusting enplay against distributer drive gear seems to be a resonable idea, any thoughts?

Sent from my SM-T713 using Tapatalk

Ronnieroadster · 03-10-2022, 02:36 PM

While we understand the early gears thrust towards the block easily seen during assembly and valve adjustments. I find once the oil idler gear and oil pump are installed the cam now thrusts forward. Its certainly not as much as the latter gears which we know thrust forward however there is a forward thrust even with the early gear combination.
Ronnieroadster

Bored&Stroked · 03-11-2022, 01:29 PM

Ronnie has it right. There will be some level of thrust backwards/forwards - even with the early cam/crank gears. Some of this can be attributed to how the cam was ground and the resulting interaction between the lifters and the lobe profiles and also whether you're accelerating or decelerating. This is also why it is important to check the final cam thrust and get it as close to .004 as possible (though not less than this).

I've seen plenty of situations where aftermarket timing cover gaskets were twice as thick as the originals, which adds a bunch of slop to the thrust - so I always measure my gaskets as well as tune the thrust.

07-19-2020, 09:53 PM	#41
Mercmarc Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: Roseville, Ca Posts: 84	Re: Camshaft Movement Hello Bored&Stroked, I believe you have hit the proverbial nail on the head perfectly. I do not see a hole in the end of the cam adapter where oil under pressure would limit metal to metal contact on the timing case cover and what you are describing makes perfect sense. Yes the mounting bolts did hit and grind away a section of the cast iron cover. Your explanation of the related oil filtration system is also spot on. :-) And I concur, three main bearings and only two benefiting from a filter equals 66% filtration. This is why I was so upset over finding the amount of metal missing and knowing where it ended up, that the rest of the engine has little value or reliability without complete teardown, cleaning and evaluation. Your explanation about the importance of and changes Ford made regarding to cam thrust is greatly appreciated and very helpful. My abilities to build an engine today have since passed and I will be leaning on professionals to do so as much as it pains me. I have done the majority of the other work on the car minus the overhauling of a rear end, the upholstery and paint. Frame off redo to create a daily driver for my wife and I. I am contacting H&H on Monday to see what if anything they can do for this engine. If nothing is the result, then I will be making other tough decisions. Thank you very much for detailing what I knew and saw but did not know why. Sincerely and respectfully Marc

07-20-2020, 12:10 PM	#42
Bored&Stroked Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 5,062	Re: Camshaft Movement I'm not one to bash anybody, but when one is paying an engine builder to build you an engine - they should at least know "what works with what". And if the customer wants a bad/wrong combination, you refuse to do it. And when you make a mistake (and we all do), you make it right . . . simple business 101. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.

07-20-2020, 05:15 PM	#43
cadillac512 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Kansas Posts: 920	Re: Camshaft Movement I wonder why an early camshaft + adapter was used (twice!) rather than the correct 8BA style which is correct for this engine. That really puzzles me... Terry __________________ "It don't take but country smarts to solve the problem" (Smokey Yunick) '41 Merc Town Sedan / 260" 8CM engine '66 Fairlane four door / "warmed up" 302

07-20-2020, 08:12 PM	#44
Mercmarc Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: Roseville, Ca Posts: 84	Re: Camshaft Movement Hello Terry, cadillac512 Great question and one I intend to ask the builder. Especially after the fist one failed. I am also curious if these are the only two engines he built this way. Respectfully Marc

08-03-2020, 03:29 PM	#45
Mercmarc Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: Roseville, Ca Posts: 84	Re: Camshaft Movement Hello To everyone who weighed in on this cam movement thread. Wrap up: The cause of the cam movement as mentioned by several, is a case of using the wrong parts for the application without the proper modifications. Early cam and adapter with no provision for oiling the front of the cam and distributor area. I have yet to determine why the builder chose to use the parts he did, but says he will stand behind his build. I am very grateful to all who participated in this thread. Respectfully Marc

08-03-2020, 03:32 PM	#46
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 10,303	Re: Camshaft Movement Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Marc, Thanks for getting back to us on this. It's always good to find out what really was going on.

02-04-2022, 08:55 PM	#47
Mercmarc Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: Roseville, Ca Posts: 84	Re: Camshaft Movement Hello All, Camshaft movement update on 2/4/2022. Firstly, please accept my apologies for such a long delay for an update. No excuses just life happens. Summary of discovery, I took the engine to H&H and worked with Mike explaining the situation. What Mike found was the cam, the cam gears, crank gear and the distributor drive gear were not a good combination for this engine. (previous builder made the same mistake twice). The bolt on distributor drive gear adapter should have been drilled for an oil passage to provide the cushion and lubrication to the inside face of the timing gear cover. The cam gear and crank gear were the later model that created a forward thrust. With using an early model cam and the distributor drive gear adaptor without an oil passage there was no cushion or lubrication between the end of the distributor drive gear and timing gear cover. Mike found a number of other issues with this motor and repaired them as required. The engine is back in the car for the 3rd time and all appears to be going well with a current odometer reading of 575 miles. All break in fluids have been changed and we are on the road. Again, I want to, and do, thank everyone for your ideas, thoughts, inputs, questions, contributions of all kinds and support. A collective effort garnered a wonderful result. Sincerely and Respectfully Marc

02-04-2022, 11:21 PM	#48
cadillac512 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Kansas Posts: 920	Re: Camshaft Movement That's great,Marc...glad to hear you're back going again. Terry __________________ "It don't take but country smarts to solve the problem" (Smokey Yunick) '41 Merc Town Sedan / 260" 8CM engine '66 Fairlane four door / "warmed up" 302

02-05-2022, 09:08 AM	#49
Desoto291Hemi Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2019 Location: Carthage , Tennessee Posts: 199	Re: Camshaft Movement Great job,,,,updating the final solution . It’s always good to hear what fixed the problem. Congratulations on getting it back on the road,,,,,,,many happy miles to you . Tommy

03-10-2022, 01:21 PM	#50
Harry Holst Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 2	Re: Camshaft Movement Ford Camshaft Endplay. Typically controlled by crankshaft & camshaft gear helix, pushing forward or backwards. Welding an aluminum nut to front cover and installing a bolt c/w locknut and adjusting enplay against distributer drive gear seems to be a resonable idea, any thoughts? Sent from my SM-T713 using Tapatalk

03-10-2022, 02:36 PM	#51
Ronnieroadster Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: East Coast in CT Posts: 1,524	Re: Camshaft Movement While we understand the early gears thrust towards the block easily seen during assembly and valve adjustments. I find once the oil idler gear and oil pump are installed the cam now thrusts forward. Its certainly not as much as the latter gears which we know thrust forward however there is a forward thrust even with the early gear combination. Ronnieroadster __________________ I use the F word a lot no not that word these words Flathead , Focus and Finish. "Life Member of the Bonneville 200 MPH Club using a Ford Flathead block" Owner , Builder, Driver of the First Ford Flathead bodied roadster to run 200 MPH Record July 13, 2018 LTA timing association 200.921 in one and a half miles burning gasoline. First ever gas burning Ford flathead powered roadster to run 200 MPH at Bonneville Salt Flats setting the record August 7th 2021 at 205.744 MPH

03-11-2022, 01:29 PM	#52
Bored&Stroked Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 5,062	Re: Camshaft Movement Ronnie has it right. There will be some level of thrust backwards/forwards - even with the early cam/crank gears. Some of this can be attributed to how the cam was ground and the resulting interaction between the lifters and the lobe profiles and also whether you're accelerating or decelerating. This is also why it is important to check the final cam thrust and get it as close to .004 as possible (though not less than this). I've seen plenty of situations where aftermarket timing cover gaskets were twice as thick as the originals, which adds a bunch of slop to the thrust - so I always measure my gaskets as well as tune the thrust.