California pcv ??

[fast fredy]

This is the system on my 55 from California , must be there first attempt at pcv , but there is no pcv valve in the system .. My canister is like the road draft tube but the downward tube is folded over to seal off . It leaks oil badly and I want to come up with another idea maybe using the same idea with different canister set up and put a pcv valve in it .. whats your thoughts ? Fred ... I think its kinda cool that it has this California feature but dont want the oil leak

[Dobie Gillis]

I doubt that's factory. Factory PCV systems didn't appear until the late '50s/early 60s. The leaking, folded over road draft tube tells the tale. A factory system would be air tight except at the system inlet.

[darrell]

thats just something someone geared up so they could run it in california.i think you have to have a closed system in calif,

[Dobie Gillis]

Does Cali require pre-emission vehicles to have emission controls added? I haven't heard that but I wouldn't put it past 'em.

[5851a]

Relative drove a 54 Ford in California in the 60's, she said they made her get one in her area. There looks to be a valve at the end of the hose above the brass fitting.

[craig]

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I was working in a shop in eastern Washington in 1968. A family had just moved from LA and I did some work on a '53 Ford they had brought up. It had a closed system with a pcv valve installed in the oil filler opening on the intake, under the generator. The open style breather cap had been replaced with a solid cap that had a hose going to the air filter (not much different than what I have on my '47 flathead today). The owner of the '53 said that the Cal. smog board had forced the system to be installed several years before

[fast fredy]

Originally Posted by 5851a

Relative drove a 54 Ford in California in the 60's, she said they made her get one in her area. There looks to be a valve at the end of the hose above the brass fitting.

You might be right about the valve

[V8COOPMAN]

.

These are some pieces that I found that I believe were part of a California package for '57 312 T-birds. The red pieces are Ford factory parts. The red cap with protruding tube mounts somewhere at the very rear of the valley cover. As can be seen in second picture, it mounts right near the vac advance diaphragm. The 3rd picture seems to show the black hose running forward the length of the carburetor, and to vacuum below front of carb. And how convenient with a PCV Valve number just screaming at ya! Just for your entertainment! DD











.

[KULTULZ]

What is on this car is a CA mandated EMISSION REDUCTION KIT (mid to late fifties). This one appears to be FORD. It is simply a low cost attempt at PCV (pre-1961 intro - CA). It had to work (probably not as well as later OEM styles) as CA would not have approved it.

It does have a valve. It would have to. Most likely the system hasn't been serviced since the install.

Whatever you do if you decide to not keep it, box it and offer it for sale, please.

[KULTULZ]

These are some pieces that I found that I believe were part of a California package for '57 312 T-birds. The red pieces are Ford factory parts.

What you see here...



EDIT - (Referring To Photos In Post #8)

... is a 1961/ (CA) - 1963/ (FED) FYB 2V OEM SYSTEM installation retro-fitted to the 57 BIRD.

The 2V and 4V systems were plumbed a little differently.

Not all cars received PCV, only in districts that required them.

[darrell]

the red pieces were used on late y block trucks with a factory pcv system.2 bbl only.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by darrell

... the red pieces were used on late y block trucks with a factory pcv system.2 bbl only.

The setup was used on the PASS CAR 61/62 2V and the TRUCK 61/64 2V and 4V in slightly different configuration(s).

[KULTULZ]

The system design is very simple. Instead of providing a partial vacuum with a road draft tube, manifold vacuum (regulated) was used to provide the draft to vent the crankcase via the original early Y-BLOCK block skirt design road draft. The 55-56 had no provision (opening) on the valley cover to retrofit a 1961/ OEM PCV style... EDIT ... (EXCEPT 55 BIRD - It used a regular road draft tube and modified valley cover).

The system was also CLOSED EMISSION whereas design would not allow it (vapors) to vent to open atmosphere ... EDIT ... through an open filtered oil fill cap (OPEN DESIGN). It vented vapors directly to the ACL for re-burn.

[Y-Blockhead]

I had a '55 way back in '66 and yes you were required to have the "Smog Device' connected, in Southern California at least. The Smog Device installers "closed off" (bent) the road draft tube as part of the installation.

There is a filter in the road draft canister that needs to be changed occasionally. If they get plugged they drip oil. Or maybe the gasket where it is bolted to the block is leaking.

I don't remember a valve. They simply blocked off the road draft tube and routed a hose from the oil filler cap to the air cleaner. That way the fumes got sucked back in the carburetor and burned.

Not the best thought out system but it satisfied the powers that be in Sacramento...

[KULTULZ]

I don't remember a valve. They simply blocked off the road draft tube and routed a hose from the oil filler cap to the air cleaner. That way the fumes got sucked back in the carburetor and burned.

It had to have a valve -

A second function of the PCV valve is to act as a flame arrester and to prevent positive pressure from the intake system from entering the crankcase.

This can happen on turbocharged engines or when a backfire takes place, and the positive pressure could damage the crankcase seals and gaskets.

The PCV valve therefore closes when positive pressure is present, to prevent it from reaching the crankcase.

SOURCE - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crankc...ilation_system

Without the valve which is also a controlled flow metering device, the engine would run too lean if you could get it to start.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

It had to have a valve -

Why would it need a valve. You are just routing the breather cap to the air cleaner instead of venting to atmosphere. You would only need a valve if it was routed to the intake manifold, which the later smog systems did.

BTW, I was only referring to the system that was on my car and I seen many times in 1966 They were definitely add on systems.


I do believe that Fast Fredy's picture does show a PCV valve by the RDT tho.

[darrell]

the factory pcv screwed into the intake in front of the carb.it was a big awkward thing and there wasnt enough room on the 4v intake.they used the pipe down the back same as the older ones.some places may have used something different but i never seen any.

[The Master Cylinder]

Originally Posted by darrell

the factory pcv screwed into the intake in front of the carb.it was a big awkward thing and there wasnt enough room on the 4v intake.they used the pipe down the back same as the older ones.some places may have used something different but i never seen any.

They had factory PCV systems in 1955? I was not aware of that??

[KULTULZ]

Why would it need a valve. You are just routing the breather cap to the air cleaner instead of venting to atmosphere. You would only need a valve if it was routed to the intake manifold, which the later smog systems did.

Did you read the REFERRING URL I posted?

Take a 2nd look at the photo(s). Direct manifold vacuum is supplied to the canister housing. It is a PCV SYSTEM.



By drawing fresh outside air through the ACL makes it a CLOSED PCV SYSTEM, whereas no fumes can vent/escape to the atmosphere unlike an OPEN SYSTEM that uses a filtered oil fill cap for outside air filtration.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by darrell

... the red pieces were used on late y block trucks with a factory pcv system.2 bbl only.

They were used on both PASS (61/62 2v) and LIGHT TRUCK (61/64 2V and 4V).



The 57 BIRD changeover shown in an above Ill used the 2V mounting style for some reason.

[Marcus]

KULTULZ ~ Thank you for the laugh, haven’t heard that phrase in many years (Although there was a time when we all overused it) ….. and welcome home, Brother.

[fast fredy]

So Kultulz on my engine I should be able to put a pcv valve in one of the valve covers, block off the original road draft and be good to go because the oil filler cap to air cleaner will supply the other half of the system (intake) .Which side valve cover would you recomend , front or rear , or it doesn't matter thanks Fred

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by fast fredy

So Kultulz on my engine I should be able to put a pcv valve in one of the valve covers, block off the original road draft and be good to go because the oil filler cap to air cleaner will supply the other half of the system (intake) .Which side valve cover would you recomend , front or rear , or it doesn't matter thanks

Fred

... NO ...

Don't cut your rocker covers. It won't look right/correct if you are doing a restoration. Then you would have to fabricate a splash shield under the PCV VALVE inlet.

If it were mine, I would fine tune the kit that is on it. Otherwise you will have to adapt the later OEM design to it and that will include finding a later model valley cover.

[KULTULZ]

This photo shows a PCV retro-fit using a 4V and the 2V style vacuum source.



The trouble with using this vacuum source (initial design was for power brake/vacuum WS WIPER) only sources two intake runners for a vacuum signal (see below attached) and the vapors are not evenly distributed among all cylinders as does one using a carb space with nipple.

So, IMO whomever designed theis add-on system had his stuff in one neat little pile.

[fast fredy]

Thanks I guess I'll have a good look at whats there and try to fine tune it to not leak oil Fred

[KULTULZ]

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Now this is your car and you do what you want. My concern is you have a piece of unique history.

To me, the simplest method is to fix what you have.

You decide and then I will help you with it.

How do you use the car? Do you want it to remain original? It was built in CA?

[KULTULZ]

Here is the same post on the other forum so one can see more than one opinion - http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic159033.aspx

[blucar]

Retro-fitting a PCV system to a pre smog engine is probably one of the most misunderstood subjects that comes up regularly on many of the old car forums.
When it comes to the pre- 63 Y-block engines, V8Coop pretty well hit the nail on the head with his #8 contribution, with one exception. The '57 T-Bird Y blocks had an open crankcase due to the fact that they were pre '63, that being the year that PCV's became mandatory on all new vehicles.
Some states, namely California passed a law in the late '60's, early '70's called NOX which was a nightmare of knee jerk emission controls that had to be retro-fitted to just about every vehicle on the road.
At the time I had a '57 T-Bird 312, I was very reluctant to cut holes in my T-Bird valve covers. I also had several trucks in my company, three of which were '64 Ford 292 Y-Block V8's. Looking the Ford trucks over the lights came on in my small brain, get a PCV system for a 292 Ford V8 truck, put it on my '57 312. Very simple, I removed the road draft tube from my Bird, installed the fitting shown in COOPs contribution, hooked everything up and took the car to the State Inspection Station, PASSED.
During the years since, I make it a habit to keep my eyes open for '63-64 F series 292's, I harvest the PCV systems and put them away for later use.

Last year I sent one of my Y-Block PCV systems down to Australia for one of the regular citizens here on The Barn for use on his Merc Y-Block.

Hmmmm? Just discovered that the pix V8COOP posted are copies of my pix.

[KULTULZ]

The '57 T-Bird Y blocks had an open crankcase due to the fact that they were pre '63, that being the year that PCV's became mandatory on all new vehicles.

Being discussed is mid-late fifties CA required systems, which was an add-on, not OEM and completely different in design.

PCV became a requirement for the CA 1961 model run and FED for the 1963 model run. Not all non-CA cars received PCV, only in areas that local emission law required it.

ATTACHED is an ILL of proper 4V PCV INSTALL -

[Patrick brophy]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Here is the same post on the other forum so one can see more than one opinion - http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic159033.aspx

KULTULZ, in the next to last photo in the link you provided from the Yblocksforever.com forum Ted Eaton has a setup shown that is pretty simple,and it would be great for my purpose.
I have a 1957 Thunderbird 312. I have that valley pan, and a upgraded Holley carburetor that has the rear hose fitting as shown in that photo.
What I am completely in the dark about, is what is being used in the valley pan. It appears that is where the PCV valve is, but I have no idea how it is fastened.
Are you aware of anybody doing something similar? Is anyone selling something like this ?
I would really like to get rid of the down draft tube .It would free up some much needed real estate in the back of the motor, and it will make removal of the starter much easier in the future. (You how things happen.)

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

...
I have a 1957 Thunderbird 312. I have that valley pan, and a upgraded Holley carburetor that has the rear hose fitting as shown in that photo. What I am completely in the dark about, is what is being used in the valley pan. It appears that is where the PCV valve is, but I have no idea how it is fastened.
Are you aware of anybody doing something similar? Is anyone selling something like this ?
...

The PVC valve is a friction fit into the grommet in the valley pan.
The top of the curved hose plugs into the spacer plate or carburetor.

More than one T-Bird parts supplier may sell these. You should be able to make a DIY copy for less.
Example...
https://www.classictbird.com/PCV-Con...uctinfo/6758A/
.

[KULTULZ]

KULTULZ, in the next to last photo in the link you provided from the Yblocksforever.com forum Ted Eaton has a setup shown that is pretty simple,and it would be great for my purpose.

I have a 1957 Thunderbird 312. I have that valley pan, and a upgraded Holley carburetor that has the rear hose fitting as shown in that photo.

What I am completely in the dark about, is what is being used in the valley pan. It appears that is where the PCV valve is, but I have no idea how it is fastened.

Are you aware of anybody doing something similar? Is anyone selling something like this ?

As mentioned, it is simply a grommet put in place of the OEM adapter. Even with a specialty grommet, the system will draw oil/vapor fumes into the engine. The shield under that opening is a splash shield (oil being slung from the distributor drive) and will not prevent valve vapor ingestion.

You need (IMO) to study the OEM setup as that adapter raises the actual valve away from the misting and allows further cooling of the vapor so that it will tends to fall out of suspension and not be drawn into the manifold vacuum source.

[KULTULZ]

fast fredy -

Have you decided what you are going to do yet?

[fast fredy]

Kultulz ..I'm just waiting to put the car in the garage for the winter and put it in the air when I can leave it sit for a while Weather is not too bad here yet , so I might take it out again.. But to answer your question I'm pretty sure I'll leave what I have with some mods. As you suggest possibly move the actual pcv valve closer to the vacuum point and check out why it is leaking oil so badly , possibly a pin hole in housing or just need a better gasket / o ring set up .... will touch base when I have it apart thanks to you and all others that hive chimed in Fred

[KULTULZ]

Appreciate the comeback.

I am really interested in learning from this so keep us informed if you can.

[blucar]

One item that many people overlook on the Y-Blocks is the crankcase breather on the lower left front of the engine.
Not all of the Y-Blocks had this breather, usually they were more common on the truck engines, 272/292 through '62. In many cases there was no breather canister, a flat plate was bolted over the opening. It has been my experience that the '63 and later 292's did not have an opening in lower left side of the block.
I currently have two '59 F100's in my 'stable', both of which are 4x's. I also have a '63 F100 4x w/292.

I have converted the '59 F-100's to the '63-64 PCV system, in lieu of removing the lower crankcase breather can I installed a block off plate between the can and the block, that way the engine appears to be stock, and the PCV system works like it should.
Throughout the years, I'm talking back to the early '70's I have found that the addition of a properly functioning PCV system on the Y-Blocks and pre '63 SBC's pretty well eliminates oil seepage from an engine due to the fact that crankcase pressure is eleminated.
The one thing that you have to make sure of when you add a PCV to an engine that did not come with one is that the port where the PCV is installed, be it a valley cover or a valve cover MUST HAVE A BAFFLE, without a baffle prior to the PCV the vacuum will suck oil into the line, causing oil consumption.
I would be very suspect of a rubber grommet in the valley cover being used with a PCV plugged into it and no provisions for a baffle.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Marcus

KULTULZ ~ Thank you for the laugh, haven’t heard that phrase in many years (Although there was a time when we all overused it)

….. and welcome home, Brother.

Glad it hit on somebody. But the fact is I was that way even before I stepped off the bus at reception.

[KULTULZ]

I am in deep anticipation as to when this system is torn down.

What I particularly want to know is exactly where the vacuum source fitting is located in relation to the filter/separator in the canister.

[KULTULZ]

The system being discussed is a kit from FORD that was used until the 1961 model year, when the OEM SYSTEM was installed on CA cars.

I have just found another kit (just PN - no details) of a kit released for the 1961/62 model years, a$$uming it was a retro-fit for anything other than a CA car.

NY became one of the first after CA requiring PCV.

[fast fredy]

Well got my car in the garage so back at it .. Here are some photos of exactly what I have The pcv valve sucks in the filtered area othe unit . The filter seems a bit oily but I guess thats to be expected in that area . When I took the canister off , about a cup of oil ran out . I wouldn't think there should be that much acumulation there, but maybe the drain back tube is partially plugged . There was no oil leaking where the unit bolts to the block. It looks like possibly the bracket/bolt that holds the canister down onto the seal needs to be tweeked a bit so that when the canister sits down evenly on the seal the bolt hole lines up . if not the canister will have uneven sealing around the canister . I think that is where my problem lies. The pcv itself seamed a bit gummed up so I sprayed it up and seems OK now .I have some reservations about this location and proximity to oil but I imagine there would be less concern if the oil drains back like it should.I would like to keep the system for nostalga so I will give it one more kick at the can before changing it .... Fred

[fast fredy]

forgot the photos

[fast fredy]

forgot the photos

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by fast fredy

Well got my car in the garage so back at it .. Here are some photos of exactly what I have The pcv valve sucks in the filtered area othe unit . The filter seems a bit oily but I guess thats to be expected in that area . When I took the canister off , about a cup of oil ran out . I wouldn't think there should be that much acumulation there, but maybe the drain back tube is partially plugged . There was no oil leaking where the unit bolts to the block. It looks like possibly the bracket/bolt that holds the canister down onto the seal needs to be tweeked a bit so that when the canister sits down evenly on the seal the bolt hole lines up . if not the canister will have uneven sealing around the canister . I think that is where my problem lies. The pcv itself seamed a bit gummed up so I sprayed it up and seems OK now .I have some reservations about this location and proximity to oil but I imagine there would be less concern if the oil drains back like it should.I would like to keep the system for nostalga so I will give it one more kick at the can before changing it .... Fred

This is much appreciated!

Now is the intake nipple attached to the cover pointing/drawing towards the inside of the filter element or the outside?

Were there any ID markings on the PCV valve itself?

How was the hose(s), dry?

[fast fredy]

It looks like the nipple draws air from around the outside of the filter. Hose did not look wet.. I didn't notice any markings on pcv , but will look closer tomorrow Fred

[KULTULZ]

It looks like the nipple draws air from around the outside of the filter

Have you re-assembled the canister assembly?

[fast fredy]

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not yet

[KULTULZ]

Can you show a photo of just the canister (6869) inverted with the filter (6A631) installed and the relation of the nipple to the actual filter placement?



THANX!

[fast fredy]

will do

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by The Master Cylinder

They had factory PCV systems in 1955? I was not aware of that??

It was not exactly factory or OEM but was a retrofit system deemed necessary in the SOCIALIST REPUBLIC of CALIFORNIA. FORD offered a kit as an accessory and there must have been aftermarket kits using FORD SERVICE PARTS.

There had to be a period TSB('s) on the system.

DUMB A$$ here, was offered by an advanced enthusiast a few years ago, to be able to access his extensive collection of DEALER SERVICE LETTERS and DUMB A$$ never took advantage of the offer. So there is much information that will be hidden from the hobby and myself.

[fast fredy]

Kultulz.. here are a couple photos you asked for .. It looks like the suction would be partially into the filter material .. On the valve it says AC I think the number is 534640

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by fast fredy

Kultulz.. here are a couple photos you asked for .. It looks like the suction would be partially into the filter material .. On the valve it says AC I think the number is 534640

That's what I needed to see...

The nipple has to be located within the filter media when the canister is installed on the tube. Otherwise, the draft will be drawing directly from the crankcase with no oil separator. Does that make sense?



AC is most likely factory assembly (if the system is factory supplied).

[fast fredy]

Yes , but other pcv's arn't filterd to my knowledge.... this one looks like it would be partialy into the filter

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by fast fredy

Yes , but other pcv's arn't filterd to my knowledge.... this one looks like it would be partialy into the filter

All systems are either filtered or have some type of separator/splash shield (this system's filter is actually a separator) otherwise the crankcase fumes/oil mist would be drawn into the combustion chamber(s) leading to fouling and affecting fuel octane ratings.

Somehow, the filter media will have to be stretched over the nipple opening without distorting it so that it will still seat on the tube filter flange correctly. Otherwise it will suck fumes from the crankcase, especially with this particular design (as it has most likely been doing).

FORD stopped using this design on 57 CAR and 59 TRUCK and went to the more familiar road draft tube.

[fast fredy]

HMMMMM... I'll have to think about this one.... Fred

[Dobie Gillis]

Could you maybe rotate the wide portion of the filter around from the 2 o'clock position to the 7 o'clock position to cover the nipple? Or is it permanently attached in its current position?

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by fast fredy

HMMMMM... I'll have to think about this one.... Fred

I want to THANK YOU for all the info you provided. It would most likely never have came to light.

[fast fredy]

Dobie.. it does rotate but the best I can get is to draw pretty much right on the edge of the filter material . I'm thinking about pushing some extra of that filter material in the pickup tube before the pcv valve . I dont think it would suck any pieces up.. What do you guys think ? thanks Fred

[KULTULZ]

But you understand what I am tying to describe?

Below is an ILL of a late 5.0L EFI PCV install that has a separator under the actual valve. It is a wire mesh type filter -

Without that filter/separator, the system will draw fumes, moisture and oil into the combustion chamber(s).

[Dobie Gillis]

Originally Posted by fast fredy

Dobie.. it does rotate but the best I can get is to draw pretty much right on the edge of the filter material . I'm thinking about pushing some extra of that filter material in the pickup tube before the pcv valve . I dont think it would suck any pieces up.. What do you guys think ? thanks Fred

In that case I think I'd find some new filter material and trim it to size so that it completely covers the nipple. Use the same material or something similar. I would NOT recommend anything like steel wool, and I wouldn't stuff any of into the nipple itself. Also, as KULTULZ says, it should have a baffle to keep oil ingestion to a minimum.

[fast fredy]

Yes I understand the concept, just trying to make something that will work in my situation .. I will leave the filter on it for a seperator and possibly add more of the same type material that will cover the complete end of suction tube. It would be same filter media not steel wool or something that would deteriate thanks Fred

[fast fredy]

this is what I'm doing , with a new filter . As you thought its probably been sucking a lot of oil spray, the adapter at the carb inlet seemed a bit cruddy so its cleaned out as well as the drain back tube down below. I;m pretty confident that it'll be the best it can be .. thanks everyone for your input Fred

[KULTULZ]

That should do it along with the original filter. You don't want splash collecting in the crimped off tube.

Keep an eye on the filter material as it will need to replaced over time.

When assembled, put a vacuum gauge over the dipstick tube. If it pulls 2 to 3 Hg @ idle it should be good. Hopefully the PCV valve was calibrated correctly for the fuel trim.

You figured it out ...

[fast fredy]

thanks for your inspiration and encouragment Fred

[KULTULZ]

You are more than welcome.

Keep the board posted as to how it goes.

[Patrick brophy]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

The PVC valve is a friction fit into the grommet in the valley pan.
The top of the curved hose plugs into the spacer plate or carburetor.

More than one T-Bird parts supplier may sell these. You should be able to make a DIY copy for less.
Example...
https://www.classictbird.com/PCV-Con...uctinfo/6758A/
.

If I were to go that route, I have a Holley 4160 .
It has a large vacuum port at the rear or the carb that is capped with a rubber cup. Would that do the same as the gizmo in the photo ?

What PCV valve should I be using? I can get the bushing, and that way I could place the PCV valve much higher in the hose.

Is the spacer under the carb needed?

[dmsfrr]

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Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

If I were to go that route, I have a Holley 4160 . It has a large vacuum port at the rear or the carb that is capped with a rubber cup. Would that do the same as the gizmo in the photo ? ...

Yes it should, unless the crankcase is putting out enough fumes to possibly clog the bottom of the carburetor.

Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

...
What PCV valve should I be using? I can get the bushing, and that way I could place the PCV valve much higher in the hose. ...

You'll need a valve with ends to work with the hose(s) you have, from a similar displacement engine. In the 20 cubic inch plus or minus range from the engine it's going on would be my guess.
Mounting the valve vertically or horizontally could make a difference, depending on the valve.

Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

... Is the spacer under the carb needed?

Yes, it helps keep heat away from the fuel bowls / carburetor and may also provide needed throttle linkage & throttle plate clearance to the intake manifold.
Newer carburetors often have larger diameter throttle butterfly plates than the openings in the top of an 'older' intake manifold. That can cause the throttle to jam up.
.

[Patrick brophy]

The reason asked about the spacer is the new Holley carburetor is a little taller than the one that was on it. I am running into a clearance issue closing the hood. It is that close.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

The reason asked about the spacer is the new Holley carburetor is a little taller than the one that was on it. I am running into a clearance issue closing the hood. It is that close.

If you look around a little you may find them in different thicknesses.
I prefer the old Bakelite ones instead of aluminum but they're harder to find.
Stacking a few gaskets instead may or may not be a good idea.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

The reason asked about the spacer is the new Holley carburetor is a little taller than the one that was on it. I am running into a clearance issue closing the hood. It is that close.

Your BIRD is a '57?

The 4160 is taller than the OEM HOLLEY? By about how much?

The 57 BIRD came through with a 1/4" spacer.

[Patrick brophy]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Your BIRD is a '57?

The 4160 is taller than the OEM HOLLEY? By about how much?

The 57 BIRD came through with a 1/4" spacer.

I do not know how much taller it is,as I don,t have the OEM .I was also let to believe that it came with a Motorcraft carburetor. I received the car in pieces.
As it sits right now the hood fails to clear by about 3/8s of an inch.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

I do not know how much taller it is,as I don,t have the OEM .I was also let to believe that it came with a Motorcraft carburetor. I received the car in pieces.

As it sits right now the hood fails to clear by about 3/8s of an inch.

Can you provide a photo of the carb and if a HOLLEY, it will have a LIST NO (and FORD ID NO if FORD issued) on the carb air-horn.

Is the intake manifold cast iron (4V) and have CASTING ID NOS. ECZ-9425-B?

How close to OEM ASSEMBLY are you aiming for?

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

I do not know how much taller it is,as I don,t have the OEM .I was also let to believe that it came with a Motorcraft carburetor. I received the car in pieces.
As it sits right now the hood fails to clear by about 3/8s of an inch.

The 4bbl '57 T-Birds originally came with a Holley List 1273 carburetor (automatic transmission),
List 1272 for a manual transmission.
They are more compact, to fit under the lowered T-Bird style air cleaner better than the Autolite/Ford/Motorcraft style carburetor used on the full-sized Fords.

The height of a Holley 1273 from the bottom of the base plate to the air cleaner flange is 3 & 1/4 inches. 4 & 9/16 to the top of the air horn and 6 inches to the top of the front bowl vent tube.

Patrick brophy, does the car have an original style air cleaner? or something else? For hood clearance the original style fits around and mostly below the top of the carburetor. Photo 2 & 3
.

[Patrick brophy]

First OEM is not an issue. This is going to be a driver.

When I received the car in parts it came with a air cleaner off a 1956 Tbird, but it still should have fit . It don't.

The new Holley carburetor does not have a List # on it. I still have the box it came in and it is marked as a 4160c universal 600 polished. The Holley part # is 0-80457S If w/ the electric choke. It does.

I did pick up a after market air cleaner that did not work out due the the clearance issue. The parts guy was aware of what was going on, and he ordered me a different style base for the air cleaner from the same company. That helped but did not completely solve the problem. It got me real close, which is why I questioned the need of the spacer under the carburetor.

[Patrick brophy]

It is a ECZ 9426-B

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

First OEM is not an issue. This is going to be a driver.

When I received the car in parts it came with a air cleaner off a 1956 Tbird, but it still should have fit . It don't.

The new Holley carburetor does not have a List # on it. I still have the box it came in and it is marked as a 4160c universal 600 polished. The Holley part # is 0-80457S If w/ the electric choke. It does.

I did pick up a after market air cleaner that did not work out due the the clearance issue. The parts guy was aware of what was going on, and he ordered me a different style base for the air cleaner from the same company. That helped but did not completely solve the problem. It got me real close, which is why I questioned the need of the spacer under the carburetor.

First, the spacer is needed as the carb should be isolated from engine heat. Vapor lock was a problem back then but with blended gasoline is even worse now. But you could run it w/o a spacer and see how it goes. The 55/56 used five paper gaskets stapled together as a heat shield due to the height of the H-4000 CARB.

The CARB you now have is possibly taller as it it a newer design using an aluminum body. First I have heard of one but I am twenty years behind times. Maybe if you measure the height from the bottom of the throttle plate to the carb air horn where the ACL sits down, someone here could measure their original HOLLEY.

You are working with a 56 base and 57 lid or is it aftermarket?

The only other possibilities that come to mind may be the engine sitting too high (front mount) or the front clip is dipped in the front.

Measure the carb if you can as if no one here has one to measure I have a H-4180 that I could measure. Also measure the height of the cleaner element.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

... When I received the car in parts it came with a air cleaner off a 1956 Tbird, but it still should have fit . It don't.
....

A '56 T-Bird originally came with a Holley 4000 'Teapot' style carburetor and an oil-bath air cleaner.
They're not overly similar to the '57 carb & air cleaner setup.
.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

A '56 T-Bird originally came with a Holley 4000 'Teapot' style carburetor and an oil-bath air cleaner.

They're not overly similar to the '57 carb & air cleaner setup.
.

Do you have both years ACL assemblies? Do you have an original carb to measure?

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Do you have both years ACL assemblies? Do you have an original carb to measure?

I don't have any '56 Bird carburetors or air cleaners, just a '56 intake manifold. (For Sale, cheap)

OEM Holley List #1273 carburetor for a '57 Bird?
I have two or three, one is on the '57 intake on the engine in my '55 Bird. It sits on a 1/2 inch thick Bakelite spacer. Photo 1 below.
Height measurements were back in reply # 72, and are copied here...

The height of a Holley 1273 from the bottom of the base plate to the air cleaner flange is 3 & 1/4 inches. 4 & 9/16 to the top of the air horn and 6 inches to the top of the front bowl vent tube..

'57 Bird air cleaner? I have three.
Two of them are shown back in reply # 72, also in photo 2 below with the top cover on.

[Patrick brophy]

OK, just got a huge bit of help from a neighbor who runs a machine shop who just happened to stop in this morning.
I was in the process of measuring the height of the base plate to the air cleaner flange.
As I was explaining the height issue ,I showed him the by now ,three air cleaners that do not work.
As we were talking he said that there was a rather deep flange on the under side of the third base plate that I had bought.That was the one that was supposed lower the air cleaner several inches.It did but that was not enough.
He said that the flange was almost 3/4 of an inch and he could machine 1/2 of an inch off and the flange would still have the stiffness needed.
He took the base and called be a short time later to pick it up.
I have and it worked out great.It was a little close in the rear with the throttle linkage, but it clears.
The next time I call for parts at Hill's Auto, I am going to pick their brains as to the difference ,if there is any,in the 3 years 55,56 and 57. At some point I would like to get the correct air cleaner, as it does brighten up the engine bay. But this will do for now.
My carb also measures 3 1/4 to the air cleaner flange.
Thanks for all the input and comments, they are appreciated.
Patrick

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

...
The next time I call for parts at Hill's Auto, I am going to pick their brains as to the difference ,if there is any,in the 3 years 55,56 and 57. At some point I would like to get the correct air cleaner, as it does brighten up the engine bay. But this will do for now.
...

1st gen T-Bird air cleaners have a cork lip on the front. It helps block hot air coming from the radiator & fan. The top lid of the air cleaner may be Argent (silver) paint or chrome if the Engine Dress-up option was ordered.

The '55 and '56 are both oil bath type, fit on the Holley 'teapot' style carburetors and look nearly the same. But the '56 version has a largish dimple on the right side of the bottom half, to clear the choke housing. The '55 version doesn't have the dimple (or a carb mounted choke housing).
Both years have a fibrous material inside the lid that should be cleaned regularly, along with changing the oil in the base and cleaning it out.

A '57 C or D code air cleaner uses a circular dry pleated element. The lower half of the filter housing may or may not have 3 bumps around the middle. The bumps keep carb vacuum from sucking the lid downward too far and choking off the air flow.
I don't know if this was a running change to their production or something else???
The double nuts on the center hold-down stud in photo 3 serve the same purpose. I cover them with a rubber or plastic washer to avoid metal filings dropping into the carb.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

OEM Holley List #1273 carburetor for a '57 Bird?

I have two or three, one is on the '57 intake on the engine in my '55 Bird. It sits on a 1/2 inch thick Bakelite spacer.

The height of a Holley 1273 from the bottom of the base plate to the air cleaner flange is 3 & 1/4 inches.

Originally Posted by Patrick brophy

OK, just got a huge bit of help from a neighbor who runs a machine shop who just happened to stop in this morning.

I was in the process of measuring the height of the base plate to the air cleaner flange.

As I was explaining the height issue, I showed him the by now, three air cleaners that do not work.

As we were talking he said that there was a rather deep flange on the under side of the third base plate that I had bought.That was the one that was supposed lower the air cleaner several inches.It did but that was not enough.

He said that the flange was almost 3/4 of an inch and he could machine 1/2 of an inch off and the flange would still have the stiffness needed.

He took the base and called be a short time later to pick it up.
I have and it worked out great.It was a little close in the rear with the throttle linkage, but it clears.

The next time I call for parts at Hill's Auto, I am going to pick their brains as to the difference ,if there is any,in the 3 years 55,56 and 57. At some point I would like to get the correct air cleaner, as it does brighten up the engine bay. But this will do for now.

My carb also measures 3 1/4 to the air cleaner flange.

... hmmph ...

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by dmsfrr

A '57 C or D code air cleaner uses a circular dry pleated element. The lower half of the filter housing may or may not have 3 bumps around the middle. The bumps keep carb vacuum from sucking the lid downward too far and choking off the air flow.

I don't know if this was a running change to their production or something else???

I think the dimples were left off the repros -

https://www.ctci.org/1957-reproducti...ntial-problem/