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Old 07-29-2010, 01:31 PM   #61
HotRodmicky
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Ayers View Post
Henry Floored:

Regarding the pop-up idea. I got it and I must have missed the piston/hi-dome head part of your idea/post.

When I looked into doing this, Arias was the only company making pop-ups for this application. They were $125 a piece + the $875 for Navarro hi-dome heads so you'd be into $1,875 before anything else.

I believe someone mentioned Ross is now also making pop-ups but I don't know for certain.

If you're going this far, you may want to atleast look into using some Scat H-beam rods @ $425 [cheapest H-beam rod-albeit off-shore *YUK* made] a set.

This is what I meant by entering into the exotic side of flathead engine building. A lot of guys balk at spending $250 for a set of pistons.

Some of these guys would have a heart attack if you told them the pistons for their engine was going to cost them $1K.

Once recovered, they'd then go into a hour long story about how they bought their first car for $10.00, fought too dang hard in Korea to let something like this happen and how spending $1K for a set of pistons would be a crying shame.

Also, when I said 95% of flathead guys would be happy with a 276 c.i., I meant the guys who actually keep a flathead in their old Ford.

I'm not even interested in old Ford with a small block anything in it.

To me, the parts just don't fit. But, as with most thigns in life, to each his own.
Tim,
i think it`s real fun to talk what to do with a Flathead to gain more horsepower etc.

Sure you can`t go wrong with a 276ci .It's a really good size, but
it would be boring if everybody build the same engine.

You are right with Hi-Dome Navarro and Arias pistion beeing WAY to
expensive to be used on the street engine , so Rons way is much better!!!

Michael
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Old 07-29-2010, 02:23 PM   #62
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

One modification you can make to a cylinder head is to increase the angle of the transfer area into the cylinder. I cut this back with a ball end mill. However it lowers compression and I don't think it helps a street engine.
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Old 07-29-2010, 02:34 PM   #63
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

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Tim,
i think it`s real fun to talk what to do with a Flathead to gain more horsepower etc.

Sure you can`t go wrong with a 276ci .It's a really good size, but
it would be boring if everybody build the same engine.

You are right with Hi-Dome Navarro and Arias pistion beeing WAY to
expensive to be used on the street engine , so Rons way is much better!!!

Michael

Michael:

I absolutely agree. I'll talk hi-po flatheads with the best of them. Maybe someday I'll have a real trick one as well.

I'm still taking them one engine at a time.

I wish only the best to those who want to and can go big and go all out with the bells and whistles. God bless them and keep 'um flat.
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Old 07-29-2010, 04:39 PM   #64
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

Just reading this post..... sort of like being in church! As an old time car guy (60) I love the enthusiasm and the interest. I have been driving my 31 with a stock, lowly old 49-53 Merc V8 as an almost daily driver for about 7 years and never even added a 2 carb set-up, but hearing you guys has sparked my interest! Thanks for the inspiration! GREAT THREAD
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Old 07-29-2010, 06:50 PM   #65
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

Great post and information to think about. Below is a picture of an 8ba I cut to see what it looked like through the port.



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Old 07-29-2010, 07:47 PM   #66
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

[QUOTE=Pete;52570]"could be beneficial in not exposing the edge of the lifter to the camshaft lobe lifting ramp in the most radical racing cam designs. "

That doesn't happen in any cam I have ever seen...It may appear to but actually does not touch the edge...If it did the cam and lifter would be toast in a short time.
The reason for using a larger diameter cam blank in a flathhead is because at anything over .420 lift on a stock core you can't get the cam in the block..To get "more cam" you need to increase the lift along with the RATE OF LIFT...On the Isky 505A and several other manufacturer's cams with more lift they either run the cam in the block or bore the cam line and put inserts in.
QUOTE]

Pete this paragraph illustrates exactly what I meant. In my original statement I was merely pointing out something I would change (cam diameter) if one could do a "clean sheet" redesign of a Flathead Ford. With nothing to help multiply valve lift the cam bears the whole burden. In a perfect world I think a larger dia cam would be nice. As far as the lifters I guess I retract my statement to a point. While the stock Flathead Ford lifters are certainly adequate they too could be enlarged so as to focus the cam lobe footprint more within the diameter of the lifter. If a tomato can could represent the lifter and your finger the cam lobe's point of contact we can easily visualize this. When the finger tip is in the very center it is easy to balance the can, just like when the lifter is riding on the heel of the lobe touching it in the center. Slide the finger tip past center and the can wants to tip more and more just like the lifter wants to as it rises against the camshaft lift lobe. The process is repeated in reverse down the back of the lobe. You start building taller camshaft lobes and that moves the range of contact much farther out near the lifter margin. That's taxing on the lifter. That's all that I'm talking about.
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Old 07-29-2010, 10:13 PM   #67
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

Vergils Photo shows the spark plug location right over the valve. I think the plug locatin should be in the transfer area, where a power tip plug could be used. Edmonds and Flatattack heads have better locations. Probably doesn't mean much,but every little bit helps.
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Old 07-29-2010, 10:20 PM   #68
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

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Originally Posted by Ol' Ron View Post
Vergils Photo shows the spark plug location right over the valve. I think the plug locatin should be in the transfer area, where a power tip plug could be used. Edmonds and Flatattack heads have better locations. Probably doesn't mean much,but every little bit helps.

Didn't some of the Kong heads come without the spark plug hole drilled/tapped for this very reason?

Man, does anyone know what happened to Kong's patterns? I also thought he had Winfield's cam masters as well.

I also think M. Davidson's heads were patterned after Kong's with some improvement Mike thought were needed.

Somewhere there is a treasure trove of flathead goodness stash out there somewhere.
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Old 07-30-2010, 12:27 AM   #69
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

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Originally Posted by Ol' Ron View Post
Vergils Photo shows the spark plug location right over the valve. I think the plug locatin should be in the transfer area, where a power tip plug could be used. Edmonds and Flatattack heads have better locations. Probably doesn't mean much,but every little bit helps.
Yeah Ron i agree on the spark plug location.

I wish Flatattak heads were a little cheaper and not down under...
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Old 07-30-2010, 12:32 AM   #70
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Ayers View Post
Didn't some of the Kong heads come without the spark plug hole drilled/tapped for this very reason?

Man, does anyone know what happened to Kong's patterns? I also thought he had Winfield's cam masters as well.

I also think M. Davidson's heads were patterned after Kong's with some improvement Mike thought were needed.

Somewhere there is a treasure trove of flathead goodness stash out there somewhere.
Winfield cams??? They are only good for four bangers....

I follow Petes school of Flathead cams ...... Winfield are lame cams

Read Pete statements on the HAMB about cams.




BTW I love this thread!!!!!!!!!
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Old 07-30-2010, 12:32 AM   #71
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

Has anbody used Motor City Flathead heads and cams?
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Old 08-01-2010, 12:21 PM   #72
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

Ron

If I wanted to build a late engine using 4" Merc crank, would you recomend the pop-up piston?

If so [for street use] what pistons and rods would you recomend?

Also what heads would be required for this?

Thanks, marvin
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Old 08-01-2010, 01:08 PM   #73
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

No I don't think that running a pop-up piston would be of any advantage at the engine operating RPM. Also the higher CR may cause fuel and ignition problems. Build a tight combustion chamber, play with the transfer area. You might consider angle milling the heads. But all these mods have little affect at the normal cruising speeds of the engine.
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Old 08-01-2010, 03:33 PM   #74
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

I've got some ocean front property in Arizona ,from the front porch you can see the sea.For sale ,best offer .
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Old 08-02-2010, 05:29 AM   #75
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

Are there any more nuggets we can pull from this subject? I have re- read everybody's post at least 3 times. Kinda like a movie you can watch over and over again. What do you think is the highest streetable and naturally aspirated horsepower per cubic inch that is possible from a Flathead Ford? What about the same question for race engines? Anybody have any dyno numbers they'd like to share?
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Old 08-02-2010, 06:29 AM   #76
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

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Originally Posted by Henry Floored View Post
Are there any more nuggets we can pull from this subject? I have re- read everybody's post at least 3 times. Kinda like a movie you can watch over and over again. What do you think is the highest streetable and naturally aspirated horsepower per cubic inch that is possible from a Flathead Ford? What about the same question for race engines? Anybody have any dyno numbers they'd like to share?
John Lawson (JWL) has written a very informative book WITH dyno numbers and his observations. If you don't already have one, I'd recommend it along with the book by Ron Holleran (Ol' Ron). They both present interesting and quantifiable numbers combined with personal experience.
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Old 08-02-2010, 07:05 AM   #77
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Thanks Henry! I have Ol Ron's book (excellent)! Looking forward to obtaining JWL's.
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Old 08-02-2010, 08:09 AM   #78
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

Be nice of you folks to post some links to the mentioned books, or at the minimum, some contact info, or just where to get them. The sellers might be amazed at the increase in sales, assuming such are still in print.

The point being, for every post in this thread, 29 1/2 people have been interested enough to look at the thread as of today.

John Oder

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Old 08-02-2010, 10:20 AM   #79
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

Thanks for the fine words and interest in my book. I think Ol Ron has some of my books to sell or you can contact me.

Thanks Again,
JWL
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Old 08-02-2010, 12:17 PM   #80
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Default Re: Boring a flathead

"What do you think is the highest streetable and naturally aspirated horsepower per cubic inch that is possible from a Flathead Ford? What about the same question for race engines?"

This will generate some arguements, I'm sure, but for "streetable (very subjective), my educated guess, having seen 3 well built flatheads on a dyno, is that about 0.65 HP/CI average. Then there is the race flathead that Ken Kloth built, raced and set records with. It is about, not quite, 1.1 Hp/CI. Not really streetable, but was once or twice driven to the local cruise nites. Helpful?
Jim
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