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Old 08-30-2011, 11:06 AM   #1
nemw001
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Unhappy 1937 No start

Hello all - I am currently working on a 1937 Ford - it came into my shop as a crank-no start - it had no spark - I sent the distributor which was original out to be refurbished at VanPelts, had a condenser and rotor installed so I would not have any issues once I put it back on. I have spark now BUT still wont start - it backfires through carburetor. I checked spark intensity and it is a nice bue/whiteish - and I ohmed checked wires and they are like maybe (4) ohms resistance. I checked the timing gear/chain for looseness by barring engine clockwise marking a spot on cover then bringing it back in opposite direction, did this several times, and there appears to be no more than 1/2" play. I then took the caps off and inspected the halves and the contacts and they appear fine. This is quite a simple set up but right about now after hours of checking it out I am baffled. Any suggestions???? Thanks.
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Old 08-30-2011, 11:11 AM   #2
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Are your plug wires in the correct order?
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Old 08-30-2011, 11:14 AM   #3
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I'm guessing the spark timing may be off or the fuel mixture may be too lean. The spark timing should be set at 4 deg. I'm sure others will chime in with their opinions.
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Old 08-30-2011, 11:17 AM   #4
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Are you running a stock Stromberg carb which is correct one for 37 #97 or a 94 ford carb. Stroms are ok with carb backfires. 94 on the other hand blow out the power valve in side the base with as little as 1 backfire. Thus you flood the engine with gas and possible engine fire.Fix the carb first.The carb probebly should be rebuilt by a competent rebuilder on here. there are a few on here. Charlie,ny,52 Henry,and yours truley Ken ct. You will get a good job done on it by any of the above. ken ct. and resonable price!
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Old 08-30-2011, 11:35 AM   #5
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Default Re: 1937 No start

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Originally Posted by don's 37 View Post
I'm guessing the spark timing may be off or the fuel mixture may be too lean. The spark timing should be set at 4 deg. I'm sure others will chime in with their opinions.
I understand your concern but shouldn't the timing have been set when the distributer was rebuilt? I thought it was one of the things you don't mess with once it is set on a machine. Of course, anyone can make mistakes.

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Old 08-30-2011, 11:56 AM   #6
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Default Re: 1937 No start

The Van Pelt site has a nice diagram of wire routing, useful given the odd layout and odd cylinder numbering system:
http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/F...ng-1932-41.jpg

Assuming good points set within specs, timing at center of scale to one line advanced should be close enough to start.
Ford published a ruler method for later field-expedient timing, and there is also one for your distributor.
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Old 08-30-2011, 12:48 PM   #7
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Default Re: 1937 No start

take a compresion test make sure no vales are stuck onley takes a few min when they tow them in you never get the right story it coluld of sat for years. make sure wires are in the right place in the caps if timing & wires are right & conp. good it will start even without a carb if you put a little gas in the manfold .timing is wrong & i don,t mean buy a few degres or valve staying open.right bank 1-4 left 5-8 may be you got mixed up on cyl #
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Old 08-30-2011, 12:57 PM   #8
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Default Re: 1937 No start

you either have a stuck intake valve or your firing order is wrong, check van pelts site the link to it is in a post above this one
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Old 08-30-2011, 01:08 PM   #9
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Default Re: 1937 No start

This may be an unnecessary remark but remember that flathead cylinders are numbered differently than most. No 1 is right (passenger side) front. 1-2-3-4 on right side, front to rear. 5-6-7-8 on left side (drivers side), front to rear. Hope this helps.
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Old 08-30-2011, 04:52 PM   #10
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Thanks all - here is an update - I should have included this with initial post - but I didnt want to have too big a post - I had already removed plugs and watched valaves for proper operation, none were hanging up, so I ran a compression test and all were within 77 - 100 ish psi and thus i figured were OK. I had allready gone to VanPelts as they did the distributor re-build, wires are all as they should be with regard to firing order. I moved timing off of initial setting one notch at a time and had someone crank to see if it would start - it did not - I maxed out both ends and set it back were it was when I got it back. I pump the dickens out of it and it still will only backfire and not even give a hint of wanting to start and run. The carburetor is a Ford 94, even with enrichening it while cranking will only backfire. As I said earlier I ohm checked wires, and even checked to be sure none were grounding out to the metal conduit and none were. I took the caps off and inspected the two halves and they looked normal to me, but this is my first foray into this particular model and with the ohm readings I think thats not the problem, however I've been working on cars for 35 years and nothing would surprise me. The kicker is if it were carburetor related would'nt enrichening it overcome the power valve issue mentioned above? It has been my finding that up to a 1/2" play in timing gears/ chain is acceptable, does anyone know if thats the case with this 37 ? Again, thank you all very much for the information, ya just never know what piece will solve the puzzle -==
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Old 08-30-2011, 04:56 PM   #11
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Default Re: 1937 No start

One thing I again forgot to mention is that when I take the plugs out, which I do after trying a few things to check them, they are never WET and show no signs of the dreaded blackness associated with a plug thats firing or trying to fire in a too rich system which makes me think LEAN hence backfire while trying (to try) to start -==
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Old 08-30-2011, 05:03 PM   #12
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Default Re: 1937 No start

ck voltage on to of dist should be about 3-4 volts even 6 volts for a quick start,don leave 6 volts there for long ,get to hot the coil will
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Old 08-30-2011, 07:01 PM   #13
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Default Re: 1937 No start

nemw001>>>I pump the dickens out of it>>>a 1/2" play in timing gears/ chain is acceptable,>>>[plugs] are never WET>>>

Peer down the carb throat for gas while pumping. If none, squirt a bit down. Then crank to see if you get more than a backfire. There's no timing chain so 1/2" slop would be too much. However, a tooth or so either way off the timing marks on the cam/crank gears should still allow it to run.

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Old 08-30-2011, 07:43 PM   #14
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I think your flooding it with a bad PV. Smell the dipstick for gas.Backfire kills them.Do you have fire at the plugs? ken ct.If no its in your dist.Possible dead short from cone shaped spring at bottom of coil not in the point cup and is caught behind it and grounding out the system.Also points MUST be set with coil screwed to dist. .015 gap. ken ct.
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Old 08-30-2011, 07:48 PM   #15
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Default Re: 1937 No start

If you have spark and you have fuel , it will run, this is a glorifed 8 cylinder lawn mower engine. Because you say the plugs are dry it would seem to indicate that you are not getting any fuel in the engine but my first look would be with the other posters, that you have installed the spark plug wires on the engine incorrectly. This engine is not numbered like a SB Chevy. Firing order is 15486372, in this case retrace the wires, number one is the most forward on the Right or passenger side bank and the right hand cylinders are numbered 1,2,3,4 front to firewall , the driver side bank is numbered 5,6,7,8, front to firewall. If you have the plug wires on correctly recheck the cap to see that the wire that you think is number 1 is actually coming out of the number one connection in the distributor.

If you are satisfied that the iginition is in order the next step is to check the fuel circuit. Attempt to start the engine on spray starting fluid. Open the choke and throttle and give the carb throat a good spray of starting fluid, replace the air cleaner and turn on the ignition switch and attempt to start the engine. If everything is in place the engine should fire for a short period of time and stop, that means it is capable of running but lacks sufficient fuel. You may attempt to refire the engine by again removing the air cleaner and respraying starting fluid own the carb throat and attempt to start the engine again. This time leave the air cleaner off and pull the choke to 1/2 closed and start. If the engine fires and runs apply short shots of starting fluid to maintain its run cycle for about a minute, this should allow enough fuel to be pumped into the carb circuit to now allow the engine to run at idle without assistance. If the engine stops or doesnt idle then there may be some further issues. At this time you can look down the carb to see if fuel is being supplied. With the engine not running open the choke plate and pull the throttle open one or two times and observe for a spray of fuel or droplets being pumped into the venturi opening, if there is fuel pumped in it should run , if not then there are other issues not timing.
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Old 08-30-2011, 07:54 PM   #16
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Default Re: 1937 No start

i reckon you have a tooth off timing gear
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Old 08-30-2011, 07:57 PM   #17
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Some more info some the same slow typer.
I would take the dist out and test for spark by turn with ign on there should be a resister under dash about .5 ohns.ign on about 4 volts+-Look at dist drive think it goes in one way.look at it get TDC and see if rotor points to #1 check all wires to firing order.The wires maybe off one position.Put about 2 oz of gas down carb and see if it starts.Put the air cleaner on.
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Old 08-30-2011, 08:28 PM   #18
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Default Re: 1937 No start

(Never done it myself, but could he have installed the wrong distributor caps? Early v. late? Too late to go out to the shop and try to see how they'd fit.)
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:13 AM   #19
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Update - I disconnected the coil feed wire from switch and ran 6v temporarily to coil off of battery with a jumper wire and cranked - still no start - there is 2.5 - 3v feeding coil with switch on. I removed caps and checked firing order on both sides, I never removed them but figured ya never know - they were all correct - I then dumped (groan) 1/2 cup of fuel down carb installed air cleaner and cranked while holding gas pedal to floor, still just backfired and no start - I then checked coil / rotor output with #1 cap off and with a ground wire being held 3/8" or so inside of cap where #1 wire would be I had someone slowly bar engine over and checked for spark and verified it was pointing at #1 wire when it happened - did this several times - seemed good to me - with the compression being 75 - 100ish on all cylinders I had ruled out a "hanging intake valve" BUT even if one was hanging up I would think the car should start?? It does have about 1/2" play in timing gears, measured by rotating engine by hand until rotor moved then barring it back in opposite direction and marking and measuring, someone mentioned that was excessive?? But excessive enough to not even start the car?? I even had a 12v jump-pack I hooked up and had someone crank car then I hit it with 12v for about 15 seconds to see if it would start still no-start!!!! I'm at a loss now, very simple set up but I cant get it to start and I have exhausted everything I know of -= Any further suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:31 AM   #20
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Default Re: 1937 No start

i would be curious to see if spray ether down the carb does anything....if you are getting a spark that will make everything come to life at least for a moment and we can verify the mechanicals are working as they should. do flat heads ever jump the timing chains?
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:33 AM   #21
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Those front dist are hard enought to work on in car.Take it out and turn it by hand and see if it sparks good put it on fender with longer wire and test should jump 1/2" nice sharp sounding spark.When you think it good take out plugs and turn over and see if the gear drive jumps were dist engages.Any more then 5 degs maybe to much.You must be sure that it not out 180 degs.Does it look like its been apart and messed with.timing cover.You may have some bodys fix that didn,t work and been sitting for years.When did it last run.
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:38 AM   #22
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Check to make sure that the exhaust isn't plugged. A mouse nest in the muffler would keep it from running.

The astute reader can guess how I know that.


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Old 09-06-2011, 09:50 AM   #23
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Default Re: 1937 No start

No timing chains in flatheads, just gears.
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:56 AM   #24
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I have another test you can try.Take the wire off dist with pos grd, It would be the neg wire remove.Put meter across battery should read 6 volts,now leave the pos wire there and hook to ign wire nothing else hooker up.If you have the correct resister under dash .5 ohm you should read 4 volt now+or-.Now hook up to coil and see if you have good spark.
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:28 AM   #25
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I poured a 1/2 cup af raw gas right down the carb held the fuel pedal to the floor and cranked - and just the backfiring - would not fire off until fuel was exhausted as you would expect it to do if it was fuel related - This particular engine has timing gears, and I'm not sure whether the 1/2" "play" is normal or not. I did move the timing adjust one notch at a time, in both directions, and tried to fire it off and still just the backfiring and I would think that doing that would gain 1/4" ish of the slop in gears and allow it to fire off if excessive play was the issue, Not sure though??? Thank you for the input - I am feeling really dumb about now and am sure this will turn out to be something really simple and overlooked by me.
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:31 AM   #26
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Quote:
Originally Posted by George/Maine View Post
Those front dist are hard enought to work on in car.Take it out and turn it by hand and see if it sparks good put it on fender with longer wire and test should jump 1/2" nice sharp sounding spark.When you think it good take out plugs and turn over and see if the gear drive jumps were dist engages.Any more then 5 degs maybe to much.You must be sure that it not out 180 degs.Does it look like its been apart and messed with.timing cover.You may have some bodys fix that didn,t work and been sitting for years.When did it last run.

I did put distributor in vise last week, hooked up 6v to it and rotated by hand, there was an intermittent spark - I swapped out the condenser with one I had on hand and that gave me a good strong white / blueish spark from rotor center as I rotated it.
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:33 AM   #27
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I have another test you can try.Take the wire off dist with pos grd, It would be the neg wire remove.Put meter across battery should read 6 volts,now leave the pos wire there and hook to ign wire nothing else hooker up.If you have the correct resister under dash .5 ohm you should read 4 volt now+or-.Now hook up to coil and see if you have good spark.

I did test voltage at coil with all wriing hooked up, it was 2.5 - 3ish volts - I took wire right off of coil and ran straght 6v to it while cranking - still just backfiring - I then had someone crank engine and I hooked a 12v jump pack to it while it was cranking - still just a more intense backfire
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:53 AM   #28
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Sorry I got that test wrong.post 24
Wire off coil neg.Disconect pos cable from battery, On OHMS scale with key on other end the wire to coil.IT should read less then 1 ohm maybe .5ohms.IF its back firing may have to turn dist little.
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:53 AM   #29
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Default Re: 1937 No start

There are only 4 things needed to makie an engine run.
1-Compression and you seem to have that.
2-Fuel and you seem to have that or you would not get a backfire.
3-Ignition and you seem to have that or you would not get the backfire.
That leaves out only the most important of all and that is;
4-Timing
I would hazard a guess that you are out of time in your wiring. I wouldn't waste time on the timing gear backlash. You are getting spark, but it is only occuring on an open valve,(backfire), which indicates the wires are not in the proper order, or you have cracks in the dist. caps.
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Old 09-06-2011, 11:26 AM   #30
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Default Re: 1937 No start

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Those front dist are hard enought to work on in car.Take it out and turn it by hand and see if it sparks good put it on fender with longer wire and test should jump 1/2" nice sharp sounding spark.When you think it good take out plugs and turn over and see if the gear drive jumps were dist engages.Any more then 5 degs maybe to much.You must be sure that it not out 180 degs.Does it look like its been apart and messed with.timing cover.You may have some bodys fix that didn,t work and been sitting for years.When did it last run.

This car has an off-set keyway that wont allow for the distributor to be put on 180 out - If you try to do that you would crack the distributor housing I do believe. - Spark at each plug wire is blue / white and jumps at least 1/4" at each lead at the plug end using a ground wire.
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Old 09-06-2011, 11:30 AM   #31
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Quote:
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There are only 4 things needed to makie an engine run.
1-Compression and you seem to have that.
2-Fuel and you seem to have that or you would not get a backfire.
3-Ignition and you seem to have that or you would not get the backfire.
That leaves out only the most important of all and that is;
4-Timing
I would hazard a guess that you are out of time in your wiring. I wouldn't waste time on the timing gear backlash. You are getting spark, but it is only occuring on an open valve,(backfire), which indicates the wires are not in the proper order, or you have cracks in the dist. caps.
I did verify firing order using VanPelts diagram, I took caps apart and checked them, saw no sign of arcing. I ohm checked the wires with loom and cap attached off car and they were all like 2 or so ohms, I wiggled them to be sure there wasnt a chaffed wire or two grounding out in the metal loom and none were. Maybe I should just replace the caps, inner and outer and wires just to eliminate them for sure.
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Old 09-06-2011, 11:31 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by 47COE View Post
Check to make sure that the exhaust isn't plugged. A mouse nest in the muffler would keep it from running.

The astute reader can guess how I know that.


Tom

I am going to disconnect exhaust at the manifold and try to start it and see what happens. I held my hand over tailpipe to check and see if there was pressure there, and seemed to be ok. However, no backfires out of the tailpipe may indicate some sort of restriction that my calibrated hand cant measure - LOL --==
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Old 09-06-2011, 11:45 AM   #33
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Default Re: 1937 No start

any chance the intake is blocked? by bees or mice or what ever.....may be worth putting a leak down tester on one of the cylinders and rotate the crank and see if you can get air coming out of the carb..

i have had motorcyles that when the plugs get gas fouled (too wet) they ground out and the spark never makes it too the electode, but you say the plugs are dry that makes we wonder if there is an intake obstruciton
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Old 09-06-2011, 11:50 AM   #34
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Nelson View Post
There are only 4 things needed to makie an engine run.
1-Compression and you seem to have that.
2-Fuel and you seem to have that or you would not get a backfire.
3-Ignition and you seem to have that or you would not get the backfire.
That leaves out only the most important of all and that is;
4-Timing
I would hazard a guess that you are out of time in your wiring. I wouldn't waste time on the timing gear backlash. You are getting spark, but it is only occuring on an open valve,(backfire), which indicates the wires are not in the proper order, or you have cracks in the dist. caps.
Actually there are 5 things.

5-Exhaust

The engine won't run if there is no place for the exhaust to go.


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Old 09-06-2011, 11:53 AM   #35
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Default Re: 1937 No start

If the exhaust were plugged up, at least the engine would try to start and run, if only momentarily. I still think it is firing on open valves due to a wiring problem. Your distributor is putting out a proper spark (1/4 inch in open atmosphere is desireable). If all the valves are opening and closing properly, not hanging up, then it must be electrical timing. You have fuel or you wouldn't have enough to backfire. It would be a fun project if it weren't so frustrating for you. I can appreciate your frustration. Years ago when I went to the Johnson Outboard factory school in Waukegan, Illinois, the teachers fixed up an engine for me to "FIX". Boy did they fix me up with a doosie. It took all day and I couldn't get it to run. They had altered 15 things and that was all they would tell me. They would give me whatever parts I needed, but I had to ask for them. I coudn't get it to run and at the end of the day, they showed me a gasket that they had cut with scissors so that it looked like a factory gasket. It was the gasket that seperates the crankcase pressure from swapping between cylinders, right under the butterfly intake valves. The only consolation was when they said that no student had ever found that one. Sometimes it can be such a simple thing that is staring us right in the face.
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Old 09-06-2011, 12:02 PM   #36
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Default Re: 1937 No start

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If the exhaust were plugged up, at least the engine would try to start and run, if only momentarily.
That wasn't my experience. For a period of several months of off and on trying, we cranked and towed my truck all over and it never once gave a hint of firing.

Sawing off the muffler with a hacksaw fixed it right up. A friend that stopped by came up with the idea to check the exhaust.

I'm not saying a plugged exhaust is the culprit in this case. But since most everything else has been tried, why not check it.


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Old 09-06-2011, 12:31 PM   #37
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I,d make sure your points are set the same.I found this in old book it may help with your timing.
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Old 09-06-2011, 12:37 PM   #38
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Took off muffler and tried to start - same deal - no start and backfiring out of the carburetor - I am going to order caps, inner and outer, and wires. - will update after install them hopefully by weeks end.
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Old 09-06-2011, 12:43 PM   #39
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Thanks George - I will check it - this distributor was just done by VanPelts so I ASSummed it was fine - but ya never know -- where you at in Mid-Coast area? I am in Warren.
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Old 09-06-2011, 02:45 PM   #40
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Default Re: 1937 No start

In the macs catalog 35 36 some are not the same parts rotors also,cap,you may have mix and match.
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Old 09-06-2011, 03:27 PM   #41
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Default Re: 1937 No start

You must have a blown power valve by now with all that backfireing through the carb. The inner caps wire holes are numbered rt side 1,2,3,4 and you must read these #'s right side up. / Left side rightside up #'s will be 5,6,7,8 these #'s tell you where the wires go.ken ct. Whats the gap at the points with the coil screwed to the dist.
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Old 09-06-2011, 03:38 PM   #42
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I think hoop might have something worth checking because ive done that.and there should be no play in timing gears been there also.
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Old 09-06-2011, 03:40 PM   #43
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Hoop might be on to something, been there,
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Old 09-06-2011, 04:04 PM   #44
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Default Re: 1937 No start

What kind of info did the owner provide? Was this car sitting for a number of years prior to him trying to start it? Was it possibly running good and suddenly just stopped running? This is how my engine reacted when some teeth stripped on the fiber camshaft timing gear. Maybe a little feedback from the owner on how the engine was acting just prior to when it completely stopped running might help in making a diagnosis of the problem.
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Old 09-06-2011, 04:14 PM   #45
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Sure sounds like an ignition problem and most likely sparkplug wires in the wrong place. If you know anyone that has a a 32-41 Ford V8 that you could borrow the dist and conduits as a unit, that would be a good way to find out whats wrong. You do not mention any past history of the car, was it running and quit etc? Also, original 37s had a crappy fiber timing gear that could be stripped. That resistor you mentioned must run with a coil for any permanent use or the coil will burn out.
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Old 09-06-2011, 04:16 PM   #46
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Default Re: 1937 No start

i have never seen a car with proper mechanical synchronization not fire up with spray ether ......it doesnt matter how weak the spark or fuel mixture levels of carb they always fire up and then die off....however if the cam timing is off the car wont start. maybe the cam timing is off from broken teeth or some other issue.
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Old 09-06-2011, 05:14 PM   #47
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Default Re: 1937 No start

You can check the cam timing by taking out the plugs and watching the valves and pistons.

Between the exhaust and intake stoke the piston will be at top dead center with the exhaust valve just closing and the intake just opening. That will help eliminate that consideration.

(I've never been to Maine. I think Ford Barn road trips would be great.)
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Old 09-06-2011, 05:51 PM   #48
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Default Re: 1937 No start

took off muffler and cranked it - still justthe backfiring.
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Old 09-06-2011, 05:53 PM   #49
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I am going to take off the timing cover and check for gear alignment or some other issue behind it - will keep all posted.
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Old 09-06-2011, 06:31 PM   #50
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Before you do that, some thing to check. Can you see pistons and valves.

The timing of this engine for TDC is when piston 2 and 3 are the same distance to top of block NOTE there is no marks on flywheel.
Mark this on front pulley eye ball location to something else.
Now with a calibrated eye ball back it off about 15degs now turn back to 9.5degs the intake valve should just start to open.OK yes or no
now go to TDC as mark before,now continue to 6.5 degs past TDC, the exhaust closes.If you have NO marks this is what you need to time it.
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Old 09-06-2011, 06:57 PM   #51
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Default Re: 1937 No start

nemwOO1

Is the cam gear pressed on or bolted to the cam?
If pressed on might have slipped on the cam throwing valve timing off even if crank & cam gears dots are aligned properly.

Not a common thing but a possibility. This is only help I can think of.
You seem to have exhausted all other causes.

PS. The exhaust on this vehicle isn't plugged I hope. Like a plugged up muffler?

Hope This Helps You Kojack
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Old 09-06-2011, 07:36 PM   #52
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I think you are 180 out of time.On the compress stroke both 2and 3 even thats the firing postion.Now to check valves you must turn 1 full turn.If you fired there it would blow back thur carb.
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Old 09-06-2011, 07:39 PM   #53
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Quote:
Originally Posted by George/Maine View Post
I think you are 180 out of time.On the compress stroke both 2and 3 even thats the firing postion.Now to check valves you must turn 1 full turn.If you fired there it would blow back thur carb.

are you thinking the cam was indexed wrong when it was put in?
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Old 09-06-2011, 07:55 PM   #54
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I see you guys are still on this, I still think its out of time some how. Now before you take a bunch of stuff apart and make a mess, it is easy to check to eliminate the stripped cam gear tooth issue.

Again remove all the spark plugs and slowly rotate the engine so that it is on number one Compression Stroke. Put your finger over the #1 plug hole so you can feel the compression build up as the piston reaches TDC, you can check that by looking in the cylinder and seeing that both valves are closed as you rotate the engine over on the compression stroke, if you pass TDC and you see the exhaust valve open, this means you have gone way too far past TDC.

Backyard mechanics says when you feel the compression pressure stop build up thats close to TDC with no measuring tools. Now you may be able to angle a 1/16" gas welding rod thru the spark plug hole to touch the piston to determine the top of the stroke but it is a tight squeeze. Any way pop off the #1 terminal cap cover and the rotor should be pointing to the number one distributor contact, that's the top left port looking from the passenger side of the engine. Now compare the position of the rotor contact to the terminal contact. If your rotor points significantly above or below that contact then there is an issue. If it is close to pointing to the contacts it will run but poorly. To further check the cam gear position you can again maintain TDC on the piston and then remove the distributor body from the timing cover. In time, the slot in the cam for the distributor drive tang points to the 11'o clock position when viewed from the front, if it does then its pretty much ok, if the slot is in any other position then there is an issue. To check for a stripped tooth simply rotate the engine over another 360* spin and as the piston come up on TDC make sure that the timing slot points to 11 o'clock if it does then that eliminates the stripped tooth with out disassembly, if it doesn't then you will have to do some further investigation.
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Old 09-06-2011, 08:04 PM   #55
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Default Re: 1937 No start

"Again remove all the spark plugs and slowly rotate the engine so that it is on number one Compression Stroke. Put your finger over the #1 plug hole so you can feel the compression build up as the piston reaches TDC you can check that by looking in the cylinder and seeing that both valves are closed as you rotate the engine over as you pass TDC you will see the exhaust valve open, this means you have gone too far past TDC, back up the rotation until the exhaust valve closes fully."

When does the exhaust valve open????

Incidentally, when the timing gear is installed wrong, you are going to get the wildest readings on your compression tests. If the compression is good and equal, you do not have a timing gear problem.
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Old 09-06-2011, 08:05 PM   #56
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Doing the same thing a few times and not working try something new.This is what i think you have,being I have never worked on one,my guess is you are out 180 degs.If some one has a dist the drive slot goes in one way, so to be out 180 the rotor must be on backwards.
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Old 09-06-2011, 08:59 PM   #57
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Default Re: 1937 No start

GEORGE/MAINE this is not a SB, at TDC the distributor only goes on one way, it cant be 180 out due to the index of parts, its either in time or it will not assemble. These distributors are sensitive to corroded contacts or incorrect contact gap but since this is a fresh rebuilt distributor its most likely to have the plug wires in the caps installed incorrectly.
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:16 PM   #58
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Default Re: 1937 No start

interesting.....i guess you could be 180* out....since the distributor is driven off the cam if they put the cam in at BTC instead of TDC alignment would be 180* out of synch. i guess some one could have screwed up a rebuild and then walked away from it in frustration.


if it was 180* out wouldnt the compression tests be normal.....at some point in the cycle wouldn't it find two closed valves? or would the two closed valves always happen at BTC?

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Old 09-07-2011, 12:56 AM   #59
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Default Re: 1937 No start

These dist will go in 180 off,ive had customers sware it went in correctly and busted the housing in doing so. So they can be installed incorrectly and they will bolt up.First rev of the motor and result busted housing. ken ct. I suspect wires are in wrong or he has the wrong inner contact plates.The contact spacing is diff from early helmet to late helmet.
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Old 09-07-2011, 04:25 AM   #60
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Default Re: 1937 No start

In post #6 shows cap wiring looking from side top left is 1,top right is 3,lower left is 4,lower right is 2 just like pic.
other side drivers side,top left is 8 top right is 7,lower left is 5,lower right is 6.compair to pic.TDC compression stroke, the inner rotor should be seen pass side at about 11 oclock.IF you don,t see it some thing is backward,Could be rotor on backwards.
I can,t belive there is no dist shown to verifie this.
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Old 09-07-2011, 05:39 AM   #61
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Default Re: 1937 No start

"Could be rotor on backwards."

Even I cannot install the rotor backwards on this distributor. PLUS, Mac Van Pelt rebuilt it. Unless "nemw" took it apart and really screwed with things ... which it doesn't sound like he did.

The best that we know is that the spark is occurring when the piston is NOT at the proper place in the stroke. There is a weak attempt to fire on partial compression.

This is the result of either a spark timing problem or a timing gear issue.

Some of us have experienced both ... others are guessing.

The guessing confuses "nemw" ... not to mention true experts like Dick having a complete brain cramp and telling us that the exhaust valve opens right after TDC of the compression stroke. (We all have busy days. I can't find my other sock this morning.)

I posted the quickest, easiest way to check for a timing gear problem. You may only have to check one cylinder. If the valves are not opening/closing correctly at the top of the exhaust/intake stroke, you've found the problem.

The other possible source of the problem is what "nemw" did with the distributor AFTER he got it from Mac. Wiring, caps, etc have been suggested.

You have to clear up one suspect area then focus on the other.

It's going to turn out to be a simple problem made complicated by "nemw's" being unfamiliar with flatheads and a plethora (my wife likes that word) of forum advice.

Now, I'm going to find my other sock.
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Old 09-07-2011, 06:37 AM   #62
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Default Re: 1937 No start

There is only one thing to do check it to another dist.If the wider slot was at 12 oclock were is the inner rotor pointing.
Today it does,nt surprise me at all, the rotor was made wrong.
So lets get it together and find out for sure.
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Old 09-07-2011, 07:43 AM   #63
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Default Re: 1937 No start

"Today it does,nt surprise me at all, the rotor was made wrong."

Funny you should say that, George. A few years ago some rotors showed up that were, in fact, made wrong. The angle between the two contacts was wrong. Really hard one to diagnose on the car. Just didn't run right. I think they came from the same place as the Argentina coils.

Some of these may still be around, but I have not heard of any recently. And haven't heard of any that caused the problems here.

Guys like Ken run into this stuff, and the boys rebuilding distributors should be on top of it.
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Old 09-07-2011, 08:22 AM   #64
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Attn HOOP again I am guilty of attempting to complete a post in a rush, I realize that after reading this it does imply that the exhaust valve opens immediately after TDC which indeed is incorrect. I try to post options that require as few tools as possible and rely on easily observed points, in this case it should be noted that when attempting to locate TDC if the exhaust valve starts to open you have rotated the engine to far over. I guess this is a good example of the importance of re reading your posts over and over for accuracy before hitting the submit button. To eliminate the confusion I edited the post thanks for the proof read. DS
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Old 09-07-2011, 08:53 AM   #65
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Default Re: 1937 No start

It won't run with 3 volts to the coil. With 3.5 volts it will try and run sometimes. Charge your battery so you have a good 6.3 or more volts after it sits for a while after charging. Good battery power is required. LARGE 6 volt cables, good terminal ends with clean ground connections. Don't forget when you see 3 volts at the coil sitting, when the starter is running the voltage will be lower. These engines are easy to flood and NOTHING happens when they flood. When starting DON"T press the gas pedal until it fires then gas and choke as required. Don't pour gas down the carb use starting fluid. Crank the engine with the throatle plates slightly open as it is cranking give it a good shot of fluid and if it starts to die give it another short shot and repeat until it picks up gas. If it won't stay running without the fluid you have a fuel supply problem. The modern gas eats the old gas hoses. I have seen MANY that have small holes that don't leak gas that is visiable but sucks air and won't run, this can also be intermitant. Sometimes a close examination of the hose will show a wet spot but don't remain there long. Dirt in the gas tanks is also a problem. Bob Shewman gadgiteer@aol.com makes hoses that the new gas won't effect. G.M.
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:05 AM   #66
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Quote:
Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan View Post
What kind of info did the owner provide? Was this car sitting for a number of years prior to him trying to start it? Was it possibly running good and suddenly just stopped running? This is how my engine reacted when some teeth stripped on the fiber camshaft timing gear. Maybe a little feedback from the owner on how the engine was acting just prior to when it completely stopped running might help in making a diagnosis of the problem.

Car was starting and running fine - then - started to be hard to start and would start and run BUT then when warm would not start - SO I checked for fuel, air, spark and there was NO spark at all coming out of rotor / distributor - so I sent distributor out to VanPelts for overhaul - got it back and now will just pop thru carb - then I took dist. off of car and put in vice and ran aux. pwr to it and there was internmittent spark and it was orangish - so I swapped out condenser, which was new with dist. overhaul, and got nice steady bue / white spark - as you can see by my replies I am trying to keep updated as I try things out. Thanks.

Last edited by nemw001; 09-07-2011 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:08 AM   #67
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I did try starting fluid - and still got the popping thru carb - I even tried raw fuel down carb left choke open, and put fuel pedal to floor with the same reults.

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Old 09-07-2011, 09:11 AM   #68
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I never took dist apart, I presummed that it was OK - I did notice the intermittent spark that was a result of a bad condenser it appears - so I replaced that but as you know did not have to tamper with the distributor to replace it - When I got it back I bolted it right on and tried to start it and popping was the end result.
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:41 AM   #69
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Default Re: 1937 No start

G.M. suggests getting back to basics. Good idea.

As an example of simple things that cause major problems, I've run into something twice recently that falls into that category.

The bolt that holds the distributor on ... upper passenger side ... if loose, will render your ignition dead as a door nail. Even slightly loose creates a poor contact with the condenser.

Twice.
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:45 AM   #70
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Update -- took of muffler and no change - took off timing cover and barred engine over to check actual timing mark alignment, they are right on - it has a fiber cam gear and no teeth were missing and I did not see any cracks or suspect markings on it - I am new to this flat head work however, I do have a working knowledge of mechanics and am capable of following any advice given to me and if not will most certailny ask for clarification prior to implementing any suggestion - that being said what I know - 1) timing marks are aligned. 2)distributor is just rebuilt and in vice as well as on car is giving a nice blue / white spark. 3) Removed muffler and no change. 4) Will not fire off with artificial enrichment fuel OR starting fluid. 5) New plugs gapped at .025" 6) Ran 6v to coil with switch wire disconnected and still no start. 7) Hooked a switching type 12v source to battery and while some1 cranked car switched it on for 10 seconds and just got even louder backfires. 8) Can see gas being pumped when manually pumping linkage at carb. 9) Dumped 1/4 cup of raw gas down carb held gas pedal to floor and cranked - backfires only 10) With caps removed had someone bar engine while I was under car with a timing light to ground and when rotor sparked off at #1 cap tower checked to see if it was actually sparking AT the tower did this several times and it sure seems to be. 11) Ohmed checked wires all are 2-4 ohms, wiggled them as well to see if maybe shorting to ground in loom and does not appear to be doing so. 12) Took caps apart and checked for carbon arcing / tracing and saw no evidence of this. 13) Checked firing order using Van Pelts diagram and it is fine, I had never touched them prior to this check. 14) Cleaned battery and starter connections to be sure starter was capable of cranking fast enough for engine to fire, but with the 12v test I did this was more a PM thing at this point. 15) Checked inline resister on interior firewall to be sure it was not open / shorted to ground. 16) Did a compression test, all cylinders within 75 - 100 psi. 17) with all plugs removed had som1 crank engine and I verified all valves opening and closing and none appeared "hung" open. 18) looked in mirror and asked myself if I am sure I have been repairing cars for 35 years. LOL -== I am now going to pull intake off and check for restriction or possible blown out gasket.
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:48 AM   #71
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Thanks - checked condenser connections - good, clean, and tight.
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Old 09-07-2011, 10:18 AM   #72
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I do not think it should be a problem, but a stupid question asked is better than one not asked that causes heartache and headaches, does it matter if condenser is grounded to the ditributor mounting hole OR to one of the coil mounting screws? The one I got on distributor after over haul was atatched to the mounting bolt upper passenger side, the one I put on after finding intermittent spark issue is grounded thru the coil mounting screw. Thanks.
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Old 09-07-2011, 10:46 AM   #73
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I'm sure by now you can find TDC compression stroke, as stated before piston 2 and 3 equal from top use something soft if you can,t see inside. "Mark" With the dist out see what the slot looks like.Where is the wider clot for dist drive.
Now look at dist and turn the inner rotor to pass side at 11oclock or points at contact.Now is the drive slot looking like it is to engage with no turn only little of out way off.If you are out 180 degs you will pop thur carb.Why because valve is starting to open and firing at wrong time.
Rebuilt yes but is it right I know its bad for bussines but do you want it fixed.
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Old 09-07-2011, 10:53 AM   #74
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Default Re: 1937 No start

"does it matter if condenser is grounded to the ditributor mounting hole OR to one of the coil mounting screws?"

No. It does however matter in ease of removing the coil from the distributor without taking the distributor out of the car.

It's not unusual to swap coils, but if you have to take that bolt out, it's more work. So some later condensers are designed to attach to the coil mounting screws. Better plan.
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Old 09-07-2011, 10:59 AM   #75
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Thanks -
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Old 09-07-2011, 11:39 AM   #76
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Had timing cover off, so lined up timing marks on the cam / crank gears - then pulled #1 and #6 plugs to be sure that valves were closed, precautionary move, the "wider" part of distributor drive facing down and narrower one up - the "slot" was pointing at about at 11 oclock - and -==> inner rotor facing at 6 oclock and outer one at about 1 oclock<==- probably means that the distributor / rotor alignment is wrong?? Hence firing with valves open?? I then barred engine over with ditributor on until inner rotor was pointing at about 11 oclock atthe #1 tower on inner cap I had previously marked the distributor housing inside to assure rotor would be pointing to it and checked valves - #1 intake was open - it appears the cam / dist "sync" is out about 45 degrees?? Is that possible??
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Old 09-07-2011, 11:41 AM   #77
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Default Re: 1937 No start

it sounds like you have covered alot.....did you check the spark plug wires where they terminate in the distributor cap to make sure they are snug and did you verify that you are getting a spark at each plug?
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Old 09-07-2011, 11:44 AM   #78
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ok i would pull the intake off and look at all the valves and follow it through a complete firing order cycle. that way you get the real view instead of looking through a spark plug hole
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Old 09-07-2011, 11:47 AM   #79
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Default Re: 1937 No start

how is the rotor indexed inside the distributor? probably by a tab of some sort i wonder if this is broken off
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Old 09-07-2011, 12:01 PM   #80
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I,m glad you checked that ,you could have been there for days or years LOL, Bad Rotor for sure.
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Old 09-07-2011, 01:04 PM   #81
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Thank you all for the help - many minds = many outlooks on same issue - sometimes we all develop tunnel vision and need a new perspective - again -Thanks.
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Old 09-07-2011, 01:20 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nemw001 View Post
Had timing cover off, so lined up timing marks on the cam / crank gears - then pulled #1 and #6 plugs to be sure that valves were closed, precautionary move, the "wider" part of distributor drive facing down and narrower one up - the "slot" was pointing at about at 11 oclock - and -==> inner rotor facing at 6 oclock and outer one at about 1 oclock<==- probably means that the distributor / rotor alignment is wrong?? Hence firing with valves open?? I then barred engine over with ditributor on until inner rotor was pointing at about 11 oclock atthe #1 tower on inner cap I had previously marked the distributor housing inside to assure rotor would be pointing to it and checked valves - #1 intake was open - it appears the cam / dist "sync" is out about 45 degrees?? Is that possible??
You must also make sure that timing mark on hub of cam (usually a line) is lined up with timing mark (also usually a line) on steel insert that is molded into the ID of the fiber gear. As someone else mentioned, the timing gear could have slipped on what's normally a pressfit on the cam hub.
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Old 09-07-2011, 02:01 PM   #83
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Default Re: 1937 No start

To double check any internal timing when at TDC turn 1 full turn at that time the intake starts to open and about 6degs later the Exhaust closes.
The car did run so i doubt its in side.
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Old 09-07-2011, 02:20 PM   #84
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Answer to post 76 NO, and dont waste your time pulling the heads. Here is a picture of what it should look like. If your cam is installed correctly like you said it was the system looks like this. The next picture is of the correct position of the distributor rotor. The rear rotor contact points approximately 11 o'clock and that is the number one spark plug wire. The distributor rotates counter clockwise and the front rotor then indexes to fire the #5 cylinder which is the front cylinder on the driverside, that is on the front terminal contact at about the 7 o'clock position marked 5 on the driver side cap. Looking at the distributor the the front rotor contact would be pointing down towards the 5 o'clock position. I still think you need to check the wires in the cap for the correct sequence.
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Old 09-07-2011, 02:42 PM   #85
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoop View Post
(Never done it myself, but could he have installed the wrong distributor caps? Early v. late? Too late to go out to the shop and try to see how they'd fit.)

Hoop, I have two 37 distributors and I noticed previously that the distributor caps were different and didnt think too much of it. are you saying that these particular distributor caps have to work with a particular rotor and that they are not interchangeable? I guess luckily i never mixed them up....thks bob
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Old 09-07-2011, 02:56 PM   #86
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Default Re: 1937 No start

"- it appears the cam / dist "sync" is out about 45 degrees??"

Maybe just a coincidence ... 45 degrees .... what's 360 degrees divided by 8 (cylinders)?

That's one whole spot off ... ?

Bob, 37forddr, early and late have two different part numbers but haven't had time to check to see if the early one will slip into the later case. The tabs fit into different slot locations ... for the time being consider I don't know what I'm talking about.

Edit for additional info:

Found some early terminal caps, the inside ones. It is possible to fit these into the later case. If so, the #1 plug wire will be in the forward top position ... 45 degrees off. The tabs are different, but if someone were not aware that there might be a difference, could make it go together.

Late terminal caps should have a part #68-12113. My early ones have no number but it should be 18-12113. I suggest looking for the part number on the inner side toward the rotor.

Would definitely cause the problems described.
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Old 09-07-2011, 03:32 PM   #87
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Dick Now thats what i was looking for.If you were to look from side with rotor to you and draw a staight line the wide clot would be farthes and small end points to you.
Or wide slot at 12 oclock and rotor a 6 oclock.
Its this correct.
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Old 09-07-2011, 03:54 PM   #88
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Car was starting and running then ,not starting when warm ( as a result of the coil or condensor ) After rebuild of dizy will not start at all . You should Swap out the distributor. bad or wrong rotor (37type ).or points timing .It did have a new faulty condenser put in it . ??

Car was starting and running fine - then - started to be hard to start and would start and run BUT then when warm would not start - SO I checked for fuel, air, spark and there was NO spark at all coming out of rotor / distributor - so I sent distributor out to VanPelts for overhaul - got it back and now will just pop thru carb - then I took dist. off of car and put in vice and ran aux. pwr to it and there was internmittent spark and it was orangish - so I swapped out condenser, which was new with dist. overhaul, and got nice steady bue / white spark - as you can see by my replies I am trying to keep updated as I try things out. Thanks.
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Old 09-07-2011, 03:59 PM   #89
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Sure sounds to me like the original problem was a BAD condensor and now mixed parts have caused the rest of the problem. Sure would be good if you could borrow a running car dist and conduits to check things out.
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Old 09-07-2011, 04:11 PM   #90
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoop View Post
"Could be rotor on backwards."

Even I cannot install the rotor backwards on this distributor. PLUS, Mac Van Pelt rebuilt it. Unless "nemw" took it apart and really screwed with things ... which it doesn't sound like he did.

The best that we know is that the spark is occurring when the piston is NOT at the proper place in the stroke. There is a weak attempt to fire on partial compression.

This is the result of either a spark timing problem or a timing gear issue.

Some of us have experienced both ... others are guessing.

The guessing confuses "nemw" ... not to mention true experts like Dick having a complete brain cramp and telling us that the exhaust valve opens right after TDC of the compression stroke. (We all have busy days. I can't find my other sock this morning.)

I posted the quickest, easiest way to check for a timing gear problem. You may only have to check one cylinder. If the valves are not opening/closing correctly at the top of the exhaust/intake stroke, you've found the problem.

The other possible source of the problem is what "nemw" did with the distributor AFTER he got it from Mac. Wiring, caps, etc have been suggested.

You have to clear up one suspect area then focus on the other.

It's going to turn out to be a simple problem made complicated by "nemw's" being unfamiliar with flatheads and a plethora (my wife likes that word) of forum advice.

Now, I'm going to find my other sock.
NO a rotor cannot be installed backwards.It wont go all the way down so you couldn't reinstall back in the outer housing.Its impossible. ken ct.
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Old 09-07-2011, 04:27 PM   #91
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Did Mac install new inner caps or did you use your old ones.You can tell if their the right ones by installing 1 side and leave the other side open [no caps] Look through the contacts on the inner cap should line up with the blade of the rotor when you turn the toung by hand. They will almost touch on the way around.If not you have the wrong inner plates.Just hunting all possibilities.Rotor bakealite rotor must have like steps on it not smooth like earlier ones 36 and down. ken ct.
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Old 09-07-2011, 04:36 PM   #92
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Point of information, You cannot mix contact caps between early and late design The spacing and indexes are different to the point that they will not work together, The early 32-36 contact caps index pin positions between the wide portion of the contact pins and the 37-41 cap has the index pin located between the narrow side of the contact cap. So they could not be incorrectly installed.
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Old 09-07-2011, 05:17 PM   #93
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Based on Hoops last post, I just remembered that a friend of mine had once inadvertently put the later '37 inner/terminal caps in his '36 distributor and his engine ran or tried to run very poorly. It is possible that you have the reverse scenario, '36/earlier inner caps in a '37 distributor. It is now sounding a lot like something is not right with that rebuilt distributor. If you only had a known good '37 distributor that you could put on temporarily to try it out.
When this '37 finally gets fixed and runs well, we should all go and have a beer together.

Edit note: Well....based on Dick's last post my friend did the impossible....I guess
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Old 09-07-2011, 05:46 PM   #94
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Default Re: 1937 No start

dick spadaro is dead right about the caps the early & late are indexed different. but knowing what people are capable of who knows
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Old 09-07-2011, 05:46 PM   #95
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Default Re: 1937 No start

OK , i would have to agree that nothing is worse than a engine that wont run , we have all had them and 99.9% of the time its something simple.
After almost a hundred replys heres my offer.

Send me your address and i will build you a fresh 37 distributor ( with a twist), mine will use a remote coil, coil wire and come to you assembled with coil adapter, coil ,condensor and coil wire. (no charge)
All you need to do is install, run a single battery wire to the coil power lead and crank the engine using your caps and wires .
This will aleviate the distributor, coil etc that you are using now. If the engine now runs send me the unit (complete ) on the car now and i will disect, fix and return....

Fair enough ???? Can get it out to you tomorrow afternoon.........

I have got to assume that the wires after this much work are correct .
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Old 09-07-2011, 07:56 PM   #96
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I have seen several rotors that were shorted through to the shaft??? G.M.
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Old 09-07-2011, 10:02 PM   #97
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Default Re: 1937 No start

sounds like distributor is set up wrong....or something is wrong with the distributor....take Bubba up on his offer and then you'll know whether it is the distributor or not...hopefully....good luck....Mike
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Old 09-08-2011, 12:08 AM   #98
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Default Re: 1937 No start

,I am sure Mac does a great job but any thing can happen with theses old cars its just something to look at .GMs right about Rotors . Here is a picture of two Rotors the large one #@*32 to 36 held me on the road for two hours the customers 34 just would not go up a hill it just crackled and popped . .I had limited tools on board, but with the aid of finger nails as screw drivers I managed to get the Dizy of and put tape around the shaft like so. and get home it went like a train.the rest of the way ,
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Old 09-08-2011, 04:50 AM   #99
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Marc, just double check the part numbers on the inner terminal caps and eliminate that possibility ... humor me.
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Old 09-08-2011, 08:55 AM   #100
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Note If there is one bad one be on look out for more,just think 100 more pieces of junk.
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Old 09-08-2011, 10:08 AM   #101
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Seeing I don,t have the dist here.
Making a bad part work.
If I is truly 45 degs off.
If at TDC the dist were pointing at # 4 you could start there and rewire moving wire back one place.
Bad fix even worse , If it poined at top rear drivers side,you would lose your order of wire on same side.The wires would be crossing from one side to other.
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Old 09-10-2011, 10:49 AM   #102
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Any update on the no start, I would like to know if the car is running?
What was the FIX?
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Old 09-10-2011, 02:59 PM   #103
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Default Re: 1937 No start

TAH DAH ......AND (drum roll) the fix is / was ????

101 posts to the thread, 1755 people read the post we gotta know what happened here ????
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Old 09-10-2011, 03:47 PM   #104
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Damn! I just read the entire thread, it's like a book with no ending...
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Old 09-10-2011, 05:16 PM   #105
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I wonder if it will be in paperback soon? ...Hang in there as the Barn people are great...as someone once said..." This problem, when solved, will be simple".........Let us know what happened...I know too little to advise, but I think it has to be a timing issue....that's my guess. Matt in Alameda
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Old 09-10-2011, 06:32 PM   #106
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I think when the made the rotor, they figured the drive slot was at 12 oclock and cylinder#1 at 12 oclock,not knowing the cam drive was a 11 oclock 10:30 45 degs.So if thats true the piston would be "half way down" and firing late,and fireing thur the carb.
I,d guess a new dist is on way.
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Old 09-12-2011, 06:33 PM   #107
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Default Re: 1937 No start

b t t t , any news or plans ??
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Old 09-13-2011, 10:08 PM   #108
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WELLLLL???? ........ Matt in Alameda
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Old 09-14-2011, 07:49 PM   #109
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Hey! RTT again!

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Old 09-14-2011, 08:07 PM   #110
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News flash! The distributor is heading to our place , will put in the intensive care department right away and post health results as soon as possible......
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Old 09-15-2011, 10:05 AM   #111
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Well its about time something is happening.
I asked for someone to show or tell what a good one would look like only 8 days ago.Like a boom o rang the center line is on wrong rotor.Thats my guess and i,m sticking to it.
There is no politics is right or wrong.
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Old 09-15-2011, 04:07 PM   #112
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I have been thinking about this rainy day here.
What I have found the firing order is 15486372 no problem there.Number 1 is pass side top in line with slot in cam.
Now here is were its wrong.
Pass fender side view,going clock wise,1 4 3 2,
Now drivers side is again clock wise view from fender 7 5 8 6

The diagram is wrong,and if the car did run the plug wires are mixed or rotor is wrong.
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Old 09-15-2011, 05:21 PM   #113
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Default Re: 1937 No start

By George,i think youve got it,looks like he has #3+#4 crossed on the right side and #8+#6 crossed on the left side[drivers side]. ken ct. I suspected crossed wires from day 1. Easy to do. LOL. So Bubba getting the dist to check wont help unless he sent the wires attached to the dizzy plates.
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Old 09-15-2011, 06:10 PM   #114
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Am I missing something here? The caps should be clearly numbered as to which cylinder each wire should go. What's an erroneous diagram have to do with actually looking at the numbers on the caps and wiring them up to the correct cylinders?

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Old 09-15-2011, 06:48 PM   #115
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Default Re: 1937 No start

this was my solution to that....just match up numbers with the ones in the cap

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Old 09-15-2011, 06:58 PM   #116
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Match up the number yes ,if they were numbered.I think after market caps are not marked.
Up top there is a notch pass side, top left 1,top right 4,lower left 2,lower right is 3
other side drivers side.
As looking from fender notch up top left to front of car 7,right 5, left 6 right 8. The inner rotor takes 1,3,5,6,cyclinders,outer 4,2,7,8 cylinders.
This is very confusing but needs some proof.
TDC the rotor should be at pass side up top at 11 oclock wire the rest as noted.
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Old 09-15-2011, 06:59 PM   #117
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Yep, that'll help keep things in order! Or even color coded wires. I just use scotch tape number labels.

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Old 09-15-2011, 07:23 PM   #118
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George/Maine>>>This is very confusing but needs some proof. TDC the rotor should be at pass side up top at 11 oclock wire the rest as noted.>>>


Yeah, George, just to add to all the confusion, I use #5 cylinder to time everthing, even down to my homemade timing degree marks on the crank & block. That's because for some reason I seem to find it easier to remember the GM & Chrysler cylinder numbering system in figuring the flathead firing order 1-8-7-3-6-5-4-2. Most older GM & Chrysler v8s are the same except for the 4-7 switch. So I could actually go without numbered caps or scotch tape if I really had to. So with the firing order burned into my head, I just have to make sure to two rotors look like they're pointing at the right wire as they go around. 8^)

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Old 09-15-2011, 07:36 PM   #119
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Yes 5 would be drivers side back top and fiirng order from there.
I think the best thing to do is make sure number 1 is were it should be.Then ever 90 degs 1/4 turn the rotor next 5 can be seen,and so on ever 1/4 turn two times around, for one full 8 cylinders.cam turn 1/2 to crankshaft.
Now if the rotor is wrong,i don,t know if it will run starting with outer rotor calling that number 1.
Realy need a dist in front of you.
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Old 09-15-2011, 07:58 PM   #120
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George/Maine>>>Realy need a dist in front of you.>>>

Yep!!! I guess we'll have to wait for the result of Bubbas investigation. Then we can debate the pros and cons of the 4-7 switch in the firing order for the flathead vs older GM/Xler v8s. 8^)

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Old 09-16-2011, 12:35 PM   #121
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I have a 68-12116 inner cap in front of me.

When the cap is held with the index mark up and looking at the side where the wires are plugged, 1 is top left, 3 is top right, 2 is bottom right and 4 is bottom left.

When the cap is held with the index down, 8 is top left, 7 is top right, 6 is bottom right and 5 is bottom left.

The diagram has the correct rotation, but 1 is oriented wrong, the drawing has the index for the passenger side at the point closest to the rotor and the drivers side has the index away from the rotor.

The earlier distributor caps have the same orientation and the difference is in the front to back distance. The rotor is still at the 11 o'clock position when the tang is at the 11 o'clock position. If the earlier rotor is used with the later caps, the rotor would not line up with the cap contacts. The same goes for the earlier caps with the later rotor.

This can easily be diagnosed by removing the coil and observing the rotor to cap contact alignment.
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Old 09-16-2011, 06:50 PM   #122
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I see on Macs the cap has notch on Pass up,and drivers side down.The caps he is showing is the same as you have written.
Now with your info sounds like early rotor ,with later caps.
Macs caps are numbered. I guess were all trained now.
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Old 09-16-2011, 06:57 PM   #123
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Default Re: 1937 No start

bypass your resister , i did and my flatty runs great for a 6 volt
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Old 09-16-2011, 07:42 PM   #124
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Quote:
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I see on Macs the cap has notch on Pass up,and drivers side down.The caps he is showing is the same as you have written.
Now with your info sounds like early rotor ,with later caps.
Macs caps are numbered. I guess were all trained now.
Does he know the diff. between early and later rotors. FHI early rotors have NO steps and very wide blade contacts like 3/8" wide blade and the later one has steps and a narrow blades like 1/8" wide. ken ct.
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Old 09-16-2011, 08:19 PM   #125
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Big Mike,
You are passing on bad information to bypass the resistor. How many miles have you driven your "flatty" to prove your statement? 10 miles?
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Old 09-17-2011, 07:15 AM   #126
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Good info on the resistor. Stock coils are made to operate on 4v, not 6v and will burn out quickly without the resistor.
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Old 09-17-2011, 07:38 AM   #127
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BIG JOHN your Pretty smart thier kid , YES my Coil is fine, and I have bypassed my resistor for the last 7 years NO Burn outs, and to prove my miles statmen about 20 miles so far
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Old 09-17-2011, 10:45 AM   #128
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Big Mike, are you using a round modern coil or an original style coil?
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Old 09-17-2011, 01:57 PM   #129
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original helmet style coil
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Old 09-17-2011, 04:41 PM   #130
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Default Re: 1937 No start

It's not the coil that will burn out running but the points will arc. The coil will burn out in a shorter time if the switch is left on and the points are closed with no resistor. G.M.
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Old 09-17-2011, 04:43 PM   #131
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Mike this looks like your posts before new radiator. G.M.
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Old 09-17-2011, 05:58 PM   #132
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Default Re: 1937 No start

C'mon guys, Big Mike has proven his point. He has run 20 miles without burning his points without a resistor. He is one sharp engine mechanic.
John
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Old 09-17-2011, 06:13 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by oldford2 View Post
C'mon guys, Big Mike has proven his point. He has run 20 miles without burning his points without a resistor. He is one sharp engine mechanic.
John
YEA,RIGHT!!!!!! ken ct.
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Old 09-17-2011, 06:47 PM   #134
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Hey Big John or should I call you Mr. Little as in Little you know about anything, Thats Right KEN they put me in the same Forum as YOU were ALL equel here HOMIE!
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Old 09-17-2011, 06:49 PM   #135
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Yes GM looks like my posts, But its true I haven't had a problem on 7 years on my resister bypass , coil is cool when the engine USTA overheat, points I chaged 3 years ago inpected them last year Alls Good mate!
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Old 09-17-2011, 06:54 PM   #136
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Sum of these knucklheads think everything is the same Totally differant operation in driving a Flatty Car apposed to a Flatty tank.
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Old 09-17-2011, 06:58 PM   #137
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Is the a miltary coil and see if it measures 6 volt at coil.
That would tell,if you have a resister some where.
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Old 09-17-2011, 08:11 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG MIKE View Post
Hey Big John or should I call you Mr. Little as in Little you know about anything, Thats Right KEN they put me in the same Forum as YOU were ALL equel here HOMIE!
MIke you and your freakin tank smell like crap. Johns forgot more than you will ever know. Why dont you sign up for the army or something and take your bren carrier with you. You can go chase the Tali-Ban in the mountins. lol ken ct.
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Old 09-19-2011, 03:33 PM   #139
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Default Re: 1937 No start

OK , been busy but got the distributor on the machine with the new coil attached , keep in mind i do not have the cap halfs or the condensor.

It ran with even firing pulses and the coil checks right on the money.

The only thing i seen at all was some residue of some kind on the coil output terminal that wiped off with a rag and didnt seem to have any effect when i tested the coil .

SO whats next ? I have the unit entirely torn down and will redo the entire process and post the pics as we go for a good on line discussion.....
So hang on here we go....
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Old 09-19-2011, 05:24 PM   #140
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Bubba
You have the dist,You are the man,Is there any thing wrong with the rotor when its locked in is the drive slot in line with innner rotor.Looks like the drive slot in rotor is deep in side and could be made wrong.In changing the wires wouldn,t be the first time they got missed up.
Note Those caps and interchangeable and if wired at the comfort of your bench,and grabbed both at same time you have a 50/50 chance of getting the right set on the correct side.

Last edited by George/Maine; 09-19-2011 at 09:33 PM.
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Old 09-20-2011, 02:01 PM   #141
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Had a minute or so today and will get more done as we go.Took the distributor apart as pictured above. Everything looks prett good, cleaned everything, and reassembled with new echlin cs47 contacts etc, painted point plate ( hate rust) and mounted with new stainless allen ( allows adjustment with allen wrench makes life easier)..
Ran on machine for a few minutes , removed from machine and readjusted everything, used a adapter for first trial run and ran for approx 20 minutes applying oil as we went. Runs really good with proper advance and good spark out put. Will install new cap sides and load test with new rebuilt 6 volt coil as soon as time permits.....
Enjoy and ask away theres lots to discuss here......
Note: I put the early and late rotors and distributor parts side by side for comparison as this was somewhat discussed in the posts above
Note the heat shrink on dist shaft to prevent arc from rotor etc.....just a idea we use..??.
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File Type: jpg 100_7384.jpg (43.3 KB, 61 views)
File Type: jpg 100_7386.jpg (54.0 KB, 62 views)
File Type: jpg 100_7387.jpg (52.8 KB, 61 views)
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Old 09-20-2011, 02:30 PM   #142
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Video of unit on tester ........
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Old 09-20-2011, 02:47 PM   #143
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Lets try again.....
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Old 09-20-2011, 02:50 PM   #144
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Videos are tough....beats me...http://s103.photobucket.com/albums/m...t=100_7388.mp4
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Old 09-20-2011, 03:05 PM   #145
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Bubba, What rpm's were you up to in the video?

Are you starting to ship the 1 for 2 distributors? John
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Old 09-20-2011, 03:13 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldford2 View Post
Bubba, What rpm's were you up to in the video?

Are you starting to ship the 1 for 2 distributors? John
Went to 5000 rpm with no problems at all, this was using a 12 volt coil and a ballast resitor.The test plug is 25,000 volts.....

Yes we have shipped the first round and will ship some more this week ( tomorrow is crab build day) also if you have a imediate need for a distributor on the trade in program let me know and i will move you up the latter . Some of the guys are not needing it right away and have stated that in their notes etc....
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Old 09-20-2011, 05:04 PM   #147
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Default Re: 1937 No start

The customer did a test and found the rotor off,If the test was done right.The rotor is wrong. I'm not good at art but you get the idea.
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Old 09-20-2011, 05:15 PM   #148
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Default Re: 1937 No start

If Bubba sends caps with that dist he has run thru, that should end the problem. I do not think I have gone up to 5K on my Heyer or Ford machine. The spark sure looked good on his.
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Old 09-20-2011, 05:22 PM   #149
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The customer did a test and found the rotor off,If the test was done right.The rotor is wrong. I'm not good at art but you get the idea.
I will check that but the rotor fits good and its the correct rotor for the distributor. The caps i have are the wrong one ( earlier) once i get the right caps i will load test with caps and rotor and scope check the system.
Really want this one to be correct considering....
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Old 09-21-2011, 02:06 AM   #150
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Default Re: 1937 No start

What i,m looking for can be seen with eye.
If you were facing a vise, the right side vert if you put the drive
slot in vise and turned the dist to pass side hole up.
Where is the rotor pointing up,down, right,left,
You must have others a know good one.
I,m looking for one thats indexed wrong.
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Old 09-21-2011, 02:24 AM   #151
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George,ive done literaly over a 100 rebuilds and have never seen a rotor that was indexed wrong as you state.Sounds like he never sent the inner caps to Bubba,seeing Bubba said he was looking for the later inner caps to retest. He should have sent the whole thing to him. I still think he has some wires crossed or the wrong inner caps in there. OMO ken ct.
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Old 09-21-2011, 06:08 AM   #152
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Well it has to be proven what is wrong.I to think it maybe wireing but to have it not run at all,i think other wise.
With these are market parts,it may not be rotor,but now it could be shaft with wrong flat. This is either right of wrong and if not the problem will be there for ever. yes or no
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Old 09-21-2011, 09:28 AM   #153
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Yea he would have to find the correct shaft.Could be a mis-match of parts in there. ??? ken ct.Boy would i like to get my hands on that one.lol ken ct.Id do it for parts needed only.No labor chg.
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Old 09-21-2011, 01:11 PM   #154
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Quote:
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George,ive done literaly over a 100 rebuilds and have never seen a rotor that was indexed wrong as you state.Sounds like he never sent the inner caps to Bubba,seeing Bubba said he was looking for the later inner caps to retest. He should have sent the whole thing to him. I still think he has some wires crossed or the wrong inner caps in there. OMO ken ct.

Yep thats the way it looks right now for sure..........
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Old 09-21-2011, 01:15 PM   #155
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I guess if I was the test it on machine.
I would get the cap holes pass side and drivers side 9 oclock and 3 oclock,
line up to graft and if had a cap on pass side, the one top left innner,and use that to test number 1
The drive slot is TDC, if it sparks out #1 wire its good or even 180 to drives side contact.
I don,t know how much there is the play with + /- 10 degs
As for the wires Post by Tomo #121 shows the numbering on caps
looking from fender on both side.
If those caps were to get mixed, wires attcahed. IT would,nt work
Dist only goes in one way,dist bolts only one way.
So its the wires or rotor indexing
Don,t think it was ever a spark problem.
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Old 09-21-2011, 01:18 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George/Maine View Post
Well it has to be proven what is wrong.I to think it maybe wireing but to have it not run at all,i think other wise.
With these are market parts,it may not be rotor,but now it could be shaft with wrong flat. This is either right of wrong and if not the problem will be there for ever. yes or no

George,

I agree all this work we need to find out the exact problem.
I just checked a tub full of cores (ie:4 hole two bolt coil housing core with small points and rotor) all of them are indexed just like the problem unit , so we can close the chapter of our book regarding index of the rotor etc.....

I am moving toward either incorrect side caps ( hard to install) or incorrect wiring...


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Old 09-21-2011, 01:29 PM   #157
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Bubba That ends that idea.
I think when you send it out ,number the caps holes each side so no mistake,Little gas and should fire.
I hope to hear when it runs.
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Old 09-21-2011, 03:17 PM   #158
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I respect Dick very much , that having been said I never dump a heavy amount of starting flud in an engine. Asking for trouble IE bent rod ,scored walls bent valve. Just not good. Same with to much gas but not as bad. Sounds like you are missing something. Did this engine run prior to the current problem. I purchased an engine that had the timing off 180 Degrees. If you crank it over with the plugs out and set up # 1 plug to view spark ( I made one with a old plug and soldered a ground wire to it with an alligator clip on it). You should be able to hold your finger over the plug hole and watch the spark for TDC. That's the best starting point , like Dick said this is not rocket science it's just a simple engine. I think your missing something. need compression (you have) fuel , and spark at the correct time it needs to at least run momenterily, The carb can be a problem but you should still be able to get it to popover for a short period with just some plain gas down the barrel of the carb.
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Old 09-21-2011, 03:57 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George/Maine View Post
I guess if I was the test it on machine.
I would get the cap holes pass side and drivers side 9 oclock and 3 oclock,
line up to graft and if had a cap on pass side, the one top left innner,and use that to test number 1
The drive slot is TDC, if it sparks out #1 wire its good or even 180 to drives side contact.
I don,t know how much there is the play with + /- 10 degs
As for the wires Post by Tomo #121 shows the numbering on caps
looking from fender on both side.
If those caps were to get mixed, wires attached. IT would,nt work
Dist only goes in one way,dist bolts only one way.
So its the wires or rotor indexing
Don,t think it was ever a spark problem.
George,i have to differ with your statement [dist will only go in one way] Not true. It can and has been put in 180 off by some people and most of the time it busts the outer housing. PS one of my customers did so after i rebuilt it for him.Result was back in shop for another housing at his expense. ken ct.
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Old 09-21-2011, 04:34 PM   #160
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Default Re: 1937 No start

How long ago was was it ... August 30, post #18?

I told you guys about the caps. How many of you actually have both styles of caps? ... and a later diver's bell?

Has anyone tried both caps to see just how close they fit?

Both caps are numbered. They have the same firing order. They have notches ... the inside toward the rotor has a locating tab. The outside where the wires plug in has TWO slots.

If you plug the wires into the correct, numbered holes of an early inner cap, then try to line up the inner tab with the notch in the distributor ... #1 is not at eleven o'clock, it's at ONE o'clock.

Remember, 45 degrees off?

The TWO outside notches allow the outer cap to be installed pointing rearward, just as though the correct inner caps were installed.

Given some extra fat gaskets sold by some vendors and "close enough" works.

Those of you who have played with the different caps will also note that the arc of the "contact" points on the inside is larger than the later caps ... poor rotor alignment.

Still time to lay down some bets.
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:02 PM   #161
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Default Re: 1937 No start

sometimes its something sooo simple. Last night I built a 9N dist and bench tested it with good spark inspite of foreign made points and condenser that had to be "fitted". My son took it and put in on his neighbors tractor and nothing. They then discovered spark plug wires were off the plugs and plugs were loose. A little tighting and varoom!
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:52 PM   #162
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Default Re: 1937 No start

been so long ago I forgot but has a differant working distributor been tried. Sure would rule a lot of questions.
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Old 09-21-2011, 06:38 PM   #163
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Default Re: 1937 No start

If you check Macs Caps the wires are as TOMo in 121 post took the time to read off a cap and the are right.
Right Side Looking from fender.Number 1 is top left,2 bottom right,3is top right,4 is bottom left.
Drivers side viewed from fender bottom left is 5,bottom right is 6,top right is 7,and 8 is top left.
As I have been saying right along number 1 is innner top left or 11 oclock.
NOTE this is viewed with caps on dist "Not on bench."
also if they get swapped from one side to other it wouldn,t run.
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Old 09-22-2011, 10:52 AM   #164
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Some new information for the discussion.............
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Old 09-22-2011, 01:12 PM   #165
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Default Re: 1937 No start

so which is a better divers style distributor the first version or the second version?
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Old 09-22-2011, 01:46 PM   #166
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so which is a better divers style distributor the first version or the second version?

Ya had to ask right . We are playing with both types as many of the cars at the Newport hillclimb use our ignitions.
A fellow barner sent me a email a few days ago and got the brain cells going. He stated that we shold use the 36 distributor with the dwell adjusting screw holes in the helment bottom and remove the "make set" of contacts and use only a single set of points. This to me makes sense and in the next couple weeks i will get one done and spun up.
Stay tuned .........
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Old 09-22-2011, 04:14 PM   #167
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Default Re: 1937 No start

That should work Bubba, early Packards had dual points and a conversion plate is made for them now to convert to single common points. I put one in my 29 and it runs fine.
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Old 09-22-2011, 06:08 PM   #168
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ken You Need me here so you can Vent I know your Blood is boiling over! LMAO
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Old 09-24-2011, 06:05 AM   #169
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Bubba, Would it make any sense to put that distributor on a known good running engine to try it out, after you do your machine checks, before you ship it back to the owner? That way we could definitely rule out the distributor as part of the problem. JMO

Quote:
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Ya had to ask reight . We are playing with both types as many of the cars at the Newport hillclimb use our ignitions.
A fellow barner sent me a email a few days ago and got the brain cells going. He stated that we shold use the 36 distributor with the dwell adjusting screw holes in the helment bottom and remove the "make set" of contacts and use only a single set of points. This to me makes sense and in the next couple weeks i will get one done and spun up.
Stay tuned .........
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Old 09-24-2011, 08:40 AM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan View Post
Bubba, Would it make any sense to put that distributor on a known good running engine to try it out, after you do your machine checks, before you ship it back to the owner? That way we could definitely rule out the distributor as part of the problem. JMO
No real advantage to using a live engine with the test equipment we use.I have side caps coming from Van Pelt and will run the entire unit with wires , loads and a view of rotor both visual as well as a scope waveform. At this point the distributor is pretty much perfect ( without wires and caps).
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Old 09-24-2011, 09:35 AM   #171
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Well what ever happend? I see the OP hasn't been on here since 9-7. Did he ever get the car running?
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Old 09-24-2011, 04:23 PM   #172
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Default Re: 1937 No start

After reading this problem over from first post i,m still bashing the dist.
There is maybe one more thing that has been over looked.
The timing of the of the points.
Seeing the a 2 points you have a make and brake set.
So the dist turns counterclock wise and when the first set makes,
the other is made and when it brakes "AT that time a spark should be
at slot time,putting spark say 12 oclock and slot same time.
"The rotor maybe right"" but the points cam is off"
say cam was off 30 degs and cap off 10 dges being off 40 total.
If these are new parts they could be made wrong.
Slot time is TDC,spark has to be same time,and the rotor lined up with cap.
This can be done and NO Machine is needed turn by hand.
I hate after market junk sorry.
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Old 09-24-2011, 05:01 PM   #173
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Quote:
Originally Posted by BUBBAS IGNITION View Post
No real advantage to using a live engine with the test equipment we use.I have side caps coming from Van Pelt and will run the entire unit with wires , loads and a view of rotor both visual as well as a scope waveform. At this point the distributor is pretty much perfect ( without wires and caps).
So what your saying Bubba is that the dist looks perfect except for the wires and caps,which we can assume the fella put these in himself. Points to wires in wrong or caps wrong which most of us have been saying all along.This is an interesting thread and very informative for all who are following it. Love a good mystry.ken ct.
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Old 09-24-2011, 06:20 PM   #174
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Quote:
Originally Posted by ken ct View Post
So what your saying Bubba is that the dist looks perfect except for the wires and caps,which we can assume the fella put these in himself. Points to wires in wrong or caps wrong which most of us have been saying all along.This is an interesting thread and very informative for all who are following it. Love a good mystry.ken ct.
Yep thats pretty much it. If for some reason the distributor had a problem , it certaintly doesnt now i have ran this thing to death a couple days in a row.
As far as anything being made wrong , twisted etc i have compared every part to the baskets full of the same unit more than once since i have had it.
I havent shiped as of yet as i want to see some waveforms on a scope with the side caps and wires attached, should get that done early this week and ship back to customer....
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Old 09-24-2011, 06:51 PM   #175
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Default Re: 1937 No start

So he didn't send you the wires or caps which could still be wrong when he gets it back.And he will have the same problem.ken ct. I still think hes got the wires in the wrong holes. ken ct.OMO with out getting a look at the whole setup caps in place ,wires installed and in the tubes,the whole cheebang the way he installed them.
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Old 09-24-2011, 07:03 PM   #176
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Default Re: 1937 No start

If the points fired late say 35 to 40 degs late the rotor would be close to #4 that cylinder would be close to bottom and fired late causeing to blow back thru carb on number 4.
The car did run and he didn,t mess with wires or cap.
That make sence to me but i don,t have dist.
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Old 09-24-2011, 07:13 PM   #177
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Bubba is the only one to see the dist and he only got 1/2 of it.Could have been setup wrong by previous owner and never fixed?? ken ct. I would love to get a look at this thing [the whole thing wires caps and metal tubes] all attached to the dist the way he was trying to start it. ken ct.
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Old 09-24-2011, 07:16 PM   #178
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Default Re: 1937 No start

"Points to wires in wrong or caps wrong which most of us have been saying all along." - ken ct.

( .... psst, Ken. You started out saying it was the power valve ... )

I got beer riding on this.
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Old 09-24-2011, 07:34 PM   #179
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I think the points cam is off ,missing 15486372 number 5 and turning was closer to number 4 and firing 4 thur carb.
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Old 09-24-2011, 08:30 PM   #180
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoop View Post
"Points to wires in wrong or caps wrong which most of us have been saying all along." - ken ct.

( .... psst, Ken. You started out saying it was the power valve ... )

I got beer riding on this.
Well in his first post he stated it was backfireing through the carb. Its not good if hes running a 94. He never stated which carb he was useing.And still hasn't.That was a shot in the dark we all make mistakes LOL ken ct.
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Old 09-24-2011, 09:30 PM   #181
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I'm hoping this guy has not given up on our beloved Flatheads, decided to drop in an evil SBC and skipped out of town on us while chirping his tires in all three gears...LOL
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Old 09-25-2011, 05:54 AM   #182
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Default Re: 1937 No start

"Well in his first post he stated it was backfireing through the carb. Its not good if hes running a 94. He never stated which carb he was useing.And still hasn't.That was a shot in the dark we all make mistakes LOL ken ct."

Not exactly a shot in the dark. Troubleshooting is often simply checking and eliminating areas that you know will cause the problem. Mistakes are what you sometimes find while doing that checking.

Honestly, Ken, I can't believe he didn't find the problem with all his checking of the caps and wires. It sounds like he really carefully worked that area ... BUT I also cannot think of anything other than caps that will cause it to fire 45 degrees out .. "it appears the cam / dist "sync" is out about 45 degrees??"

The car was not running when it came into his shop. The pitfall may have been something the owner did that "nemw" thought was the correct setup and followed in replacing parts ... it still is a concern that he actually marked the cap to index #!.

This may turn out that he'll get the distributor back, the engine will run fine, and we'll never know what caused the problem ... or, he'll find his wedding ring came off and got stuck somewhere, and he'll clear this whole thing up.

Too often the real cause defies mechanical logic.
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Old 09-25-2011, 11:00 AM   #183
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I have hear of these timing fixtures and this must be so a layman can put in with no problems.
This is out of and old book when you don,t have one.
Goes back to basics.
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Old 09-26-2011, 10:47 PM   #184
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Enquireing minds want to know.
I have another thing that may have happened.
If you think number 1 is on Drivers Side,
and match wires to same side.Takeing the test
putting top left at 11 oclock.
This would mean that all wires,
and caps were off car at one time.
Swapping sides,Will never run this way.
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Old 09-27-2011, 12:03 AM   #185
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I hope thats not his thinking as #1 is front pass side. ken ct.
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Old 09-27-2011, 10:44 AM   #186
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Default Re: 1937 No start

When TDC was a 11 oclock and was said right with engine,asked to put number 1 at 11 oclock,if you used drivers side at 11 oclock,this would have pointed to out side contact.Then asked to see if lined up with engine ,he says off 45 degs.
Thats is the only thing that makes any sence of this whole thing.
And with wireing to wrong side makes it never going to run.
That my take on what happened and Bubba got the headach.
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Old 09-27-2011, 12:47 PM   #187
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Default Re: 1937 No start

As Dick said it takes 4 things for it to run spark, fuel, air, at the correct time
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Old 09-27-2011, 01:09 PM   #188
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Default Re: 1937 No start

OK folks i am done !!!

My delay was wanting to run the distributor on tester with caps, adapters,wires and a load bench.
Got the caps in today and placed distributor on tester with all wires and caps sides etc.

Everything is good ( could be the best i have ever seen for sure) rotor gap is great (.003-.005) and with a load placed on system of 25,000 volts spark jump is good and clean on every rotor tip.
It may be possible to use the wrong year caps but it would take some work a the locating notch is in a different location and may be seen in picture number one, large rotor gap would cause some issues as well , if the engine did start it wouldnt rev up ( in my thinking). (photo shows large gap).
Picture shows the two types of caps.
Complete distributor is shown as well as complete unit being shipped out.
I also tested the entire unit with a "skips" rewound coil in place and again all is well.
The only thing left is correct firing order and that isnt up to me ....
I didnt know i would ever get so close to a distributor ..
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Old 09-27-2011, 01:27 PM   #189
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Default Re: 1937 No start

He HAD to have the wires in wrong,nothing that Bubba could find in my opinion?????!!!!!!!!. ken ct. Thanks Bubba. That should have been found about the #2 post. go figure. 188 posts on this problem that should have been found in 5 minutes.
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Old 09-27-2011, 03:58 PM   #190
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Like someone said above we may never know exactly why this engine wouldnt start.
Lots of stuff can happen and i guess experience works in our favor in all cases.
Just yesterday one of my part time shop guys was doing a final test on a helment with the distributor machine. I had over seen all adjustments and everything was done just right . The tester lights wouldnt light and i knew ( experience) that he had just installed the coil and the spring contact was behind the post grounding out the coil. How did i know that ?????" been there done that" and wont even mention how long it took me to find my first one.
This year is my 30th year troubleshooting old cars at the Newport Hillclimb and i am sure i will have at the very least one car that kicks my ass with a problem.

My only hope is that the customer puts the distributor on the engine and it roars to life !!
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Old 09-27-2011, 04:32 PM   #191
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Default Re: 1937 No start

If he wires it right it will run? ken ct. Ive had my happenings with the spring caught behind the cup.Only happend once and i learned after that one Many yrs ago.lol ken ct.
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Old 09-27-2011, 05:50 PM   #192
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Hopefully we will get feed back from the original poster. This has been one long AND interesting saga. JMO
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Old 09-30-2011, 08:51 PM   #193
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ttt
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Old 10-01-2011, 08:08 AM   #194
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Suggestion to original poster: Get the Ford Svc Bulletin wireing diagram or owners manual diagram wire it up by the picture and do not try to second guess left or right.
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Old 10-04-2011, 10:27 AM   #195
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Default Re: 1937 No start

And the news is ????????

Is it running ....................?????????
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Old 10-04-2011, 11:31 AM   #196
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Default Re: 1937 No start

It maybe one of those cases were it run 30 years ago,when I parked it.You fool with cars see if you can get it running.
Never heard from again if fixed thats the way it is.
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Old 10-04-2011, 11:33 AM   #197
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Default Re: 1937 No start

"Ground Control to Major Tom,
Take your protein pills and put your helmet [distributor] on...."
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Old 10-04-2011, 12:23 PM   #198
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Heads up Mainacs,
What happen to the 40 Ford sedan in Rockland with no dist,about 20 miles away.It was for sale the last two years.
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Old 10-04-2011, 08:12 PM   #199
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ttt
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:47 PM   #200
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Default Re: 1937 No start

ttt This is killing me. Got to know how it turns out.

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Old 10-05-2011, 11:10 PM   #201
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Does anyone know "nemw001"? Should we send him a PM? The suspense is killing me.
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Old 10-06-2011, 06:38 AM   #202
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Default Re: 1937 No start

He maybe putting a Chevy motor in the car and gave up.No update since 9-7-11
Keeps saying 1/2 inch of play in gears.
Now with that said few times.
Two gear should not have that much play.
I have another guess whats wrong,
"The key may have sheared and is moving back and forth."
You would still have timing marks correct,but out of time off 45 degs.
I wonder if thats the engine out of the 40 sedan in Rockland that was for sale for $10,000 and had no dist, wonder why.
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Old 10-07-2011, 04:32 PM   #203
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Default Re: 1937 No start

He's too embarrassed to admit he had it wired wrong after telling us it was right 20 times.
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:19 AM   #204
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I got a kick out of the thread below. Notice that both Walt and Bubba (edit: and Ken) would not hesitate to file/sand/modify a part to fit ... and nothing wrong with that.

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49928

Just MAYBE "nemw001" used the same approach? Possible? Only with the wrong caps.

(To "Henry/Kokomo": "nemw001" has a website on the internet. I don't think he's actually trying to keep his business a secret. Why he hasn't "closed the loop" on this is a puzzle.)
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Last edited by Hoop; 10-10-2011 at 02:27 PM. Reason: added Ken
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:48 AM   #205
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry/Kokomo View Post
Does anyone know "nemw001"? Should we send him a PM? The suspense is killing me.
I sent him a PM early on in this post urging him to send his distributor to Bubba. At least he took that advice. I'm not sure we will ever hear "the rest of the story" as Paul Harvey would have said.
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Old 10-10-2011, 03:47 PM   #206
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Default Re: 1937 No start

JM 35 Sedan - I, too, sent him a PM. No answer to date. I agree that we'll not hear the conclusion of this saga.
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Old 10-10-2011, 04:45 PM   #207
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Here is something that might add to the confusion. If you go to the service bulletins, p422, Nov 1937, a wire diagram is shown that includes the spark plug wires. It gives 4,2,1,3 (passenger side) 8,7,5,6 (drivers side) with 1-5-4-8-6-3-7-2 firing order. In my opinion, no 1 is not the second plug on the passenger side.........
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Old 10-10-2011, 05:13 PM   #208
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Default Re: 1937 No start

From front to back Pass Side 1234,
Drivers Side 5678.
You realy can,t be out of time with dist in place.
There is no need to find TDC.But the caps were wired with the notch down that would be drivers side.If wired that way it on wrong side.Number 1 is pass side if I was put on right with notch up 1234 . I think the tubes can only go one way.
So my Guess the caps are mixed.And to add to this it maybe still not working.
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Old 10-10-2011, 07:42 PM   #209
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Default Re: 1937 No start

You guys have got to find something else to do. This guy don't want respond so to h--l with it. Walt
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Old 10-10-2011, 08:14 PM   #210
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Default Re: 1937 No start

BUT Walt...we just can't sleep at nights wondering what the heck was really wrong....it's one of the biggest unsolved Flathead mysteries in recent Ford Barn history that we just can't let go unsolved. LOLOL
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Old 10-11-2011, 05:14 AM   #211
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Default Re: 1937 No start

"You guys have got to find something else to do."

Great suggestion, Walt. At 4:00 AM I went outside to clean up some litter from the storm that just came through, cranked up the leaf blower, and the neighbor turned his dogs loose on me.

I came in the house and decided I run the vacuum a little.

Not popular.

The internet is the best way to sit back, relax and have a cup of fresh coffee. I've scanned Craigslist, a little of eBay, and posted on the HAMB.

I find this thread still interesting and the comments made by some of the guys still ... well, instructional and entertaining.

... appears you also keep peeking at it.
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Old 10-11-2011, 07:23 AM   #212
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THis guy as managed to drive us all crazy. LOL Walt
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Old 10-11-2011, 07:33 AM   #213
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Very interesting?
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