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Old 09-07-2011, 05:39 AM   #61
Hoop
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Default Re: 1937 No start

"Could be rotor on backwards."

Even I cannot install the rotor backwards on this distributor. PLUS, Mac Van Pelt rebuilt it. Unless "nemw" took it apart and really screwed with things ... which it doesn't sound like he did.

The best that we know is that the spark is occurring when the piston is NOT at the proper place in the stroke. There is a weak attempt to fire on partial compression.

This is the result of either a spark timing problem or a timing gear issue.

Some of us have experienced both ... others are guessing.

The guessing confuses "nemw" ... not to mention true experts like Dick having a complete brain cramp and telling us that the exhaust valve opens right after TDC of the compression stroke. (We all have busy days. I can't find my other sock this morning.)

I posted the quickest, easiest way to check for a timing gear problem. You may only have to check one cylinder. If the valves are not opening/closing correctly at the top of the exhaust/intake stroke, you've found the problem.

The other possible source of the problem is what "nemw" did with the distributor AFTER he got it from Mac. Wiring, caps, etc have been suggested.

You have to clear up one suspect area then focus on the other.

It's going to turn out to be a simple problem made complicated by "nemw's" being unfamiliar with flatheads and a plethora (my wife likes that word) of forum advice.

Now, I'm going to find my other sock.
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Old 09-07-2011, 06:37 AM   #62
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Default Re: 1937 No start

There is only one thing to do check it to another dist.If the wider slot was at 12 oclock were is the inner rotor pointing.
Today it does,nt surprise me at all, the rotor was made wrong.
So lets get it together and find out for sure.
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Old 09-07-2011, 07:43 AM   #63
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Default Re: 1937 No start

"Today it does,nt surprise me at all, the rotor was made wrong."

Funny you should say that, George. A few years ago some rotors showed up that were, in fact, made wrong. The angle between the two contacts was wrong. Really hard one to diagnose on the car. Just didn't run right. I think they came from the same place as the Argentina coils.

Some of these may still be around, but I have not heard of any recently. And haven't heard of any that caused the problems here.

Guys like Ken run into this stuff, and the boys rebuilding distributors should be on top of it.
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Old 09-07-2011, 08:22 AM   #64
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Attn HOOP again I am guilty of attempting to complete a post in a rush, I realize that after reading this it does imply that the exhaust valve opens immediately after TDC which indeed is incorrect. I try to post options that require as few tools as possible and rely on easily observed points, in this case it should be noted that when attempting to locate TDC if the exhaust valve starts to open you have rotated the engine to far over. I guess this is a good example of the importance of re reading your posts over and over for accuracy before hitting the submit button. To eliminate the confusion I edited the post thanks for the proof read. DS
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Old 09-07-2011, 08:53 AM   #65
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Default Re: 1937 No start

It won't run with 3 volts to the coil. With 3.5 volts it will try and run sometimes. Charge your battery so you have a good 6.3 or more volts after it sits for a while after charging. Good battery power is required. LARGE 6 volt cables, good terminal ends with clean ground connections. Don't forget when you see 3 volts at the coil sitting, when the starter is running the voltage will be lower. These engines are easy to flood and NOTHING happens when they flood. When starting DON"T press the gas pedal until it fires then gas and choke as required. Don't pour gas down the carb use starting fluid. Crank the engine with the throatle plates slightly open as it is cranking give it a good shot of fluid and if it starts to die give it another short shot and repeat until it picks up gas. If it won't stay running without the fluid you have a fuel supply problem. The modern gas eats the old gas hoses. I have seen MANY that have small holes that don't leak gas that is visiable but sucks air and won't run, this can also be intermitant. Sometimes a close examination of the hose will show a wet spot but don't remain there long. Dirt in the gas tanks is also a problem. Bob Shewman gadgiteer@aol.com makes hoses that the new gas won't effect. G.M.
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:05 AM   #66
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Quote:
Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan View Post
What kind of info did the owner provide? Was this car sitting for a number of years prior to him trying to start it? Was it possibly running good and suddenly just stopped running? This is how my engine reacted when some teeth stripped on the fiber camshaft timing gear. Maybe a little feedback from the owner on how the engine was acting just prior to when it completely stopped running might help in making a diagnosis of the problem.

Car was starting and running fine - then - started to be hard to start and would start and run BUT then when warm would not start - SO I checked for fuel, air, spark and there was NO spark at all coming out of rotor / distributor - so I sent distributor out to VanPelts for overhaul - got it back and now will just pop thru carb - then I took dist. off of car and put in vice and ran aux. pwr to it and there was internmittent spark and it was orangish - so I swapped out condenser, which was new with dist. overhaul, and got nice steady bue / white spark - as you can see by my replies I am trying to keep updated as I try things out. Thanks.

Last edited by nemw001; 09-07-2011 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:08 AM   #67
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I did try starting fluid - and still got the popping thru carb - I even tried raw fuel down carb left choke open, and put fuel pedal to floor with the same reults.

Last edited by nemw001; 09-07-2011 at 09:51 AM.
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:11 AM   #68
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I never took dist apart, I presummed that it was OK - I did notice the intermittent spark that was a result of a bad condenser it appears - so I replaced that but as you know did not have to tamper with the distributor to replace it - When I got it back I bolted it right on and tried to start it and popping was the end result.
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:41 AM   #69
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Default Re: 1937 No start

G.M. suggests getting back to basics. Good idea.

As an example of simple things that cause major problems, I've run into something twice recently that falls into that category.

The bolt that holds the distributor on ... upper passenger side ... if loose, will render your ignition dead as a door nail. Even slightly loose creates a poor contact with the condenser.

Twice.
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:45 AM   #70
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Update -- took of muffler and no change - took off timing cover and barred engine over to check actual timing mark alignment, they are right on - it has a fiber cam gear and no teeth were missing and I did not see any cracks or suspect markings on it - I am new to this flat head work however, I do have a working knowledge of mechanics and am capable of following any advice given to me and if not will most certailny ask for clarification prior to implementing any suggestion - that being said what I know - 1) timing marks are aligned. 2)distributor is just rebuilt and in vice as well as on car is giving a nice blue / white spark. 3) Removed muffler and no change. 4) Will not fire off with artificial enrichment fuel OR starting fluid. 5) New plugs gapped at .025" 6) Ran 6v to coil with switch wire disconnected and still no start. 7) Hooked a switching type 12v source to battery and while some1 cranked car switched it on for 10 seconds and just got even louder backfires. 8) Can see gas being pumped when manually pumping linkage at carb. 9) Dumped 1/4 cup of raw gas down carb held gas pedal to floor and cranked - backfires only 10) With caps removed had someone bar engine while I was under car with a timing light to ground and when rotor sparked off at #1 cap tower checked to see if it was actually sparking AT the tower did this several times and it sure seems to be. 11) Ohmed checked wires all are 2-4 ohms, wiggled them as well to see if maybe shorting to ground in loom and does not appear to be doing so. 12) Took caps apart and checked for carbon arcing / tracing and saw no evidence of this. 13) Checked firing order using Van Pelts diagram and it is fine, I had never touched them prior to this check. 14) Cleaned battery and starter connections to be sure starter was capable of cranking fast enough for engine to fire, but with the 12v test I did this was more a PM thing at this point. 15) Checked inline resister on interior firewall to be sure it was not open / shorted to ground. 16) Did a compression test, all cylinders within 75 - 100 psi. 17) with all plugs removed had som1 crank engine and I verified all valves opening and closing and none appeared "hung" open. 18) looked in mirror and asked myself if I am sure I have been repairing cars for 35 years. LOL -== I am now going to pull intake off and check for restriction or possible blown out gasket.
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:48 AM   #71
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Thanks - checked condenser connections - good, clean, and tight.
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Old 09-07-2011, 10:18 AM   #72
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I do not think it should be a problem, but a stupid question asked is better than one not asked that causes heartache and headaches, does it matter if condenser is grounded to the ditributor mounting hole OR to one of the coil mounting screws? The one I got on distributor after over haul was atatched to the mounting bolt upper passenger side, the one I put on after finding intermittent spark issue is grounded thru the coil mounting screw. Thanks.
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Old 09-07-2011, 10:46 AM   #73
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I'm sure by now you can find TDC compression stroke, as stated before piston 2 and 3 equal from top use something soft if you can,t see inside. "Mark" With the dist out see what the slot looks like.Where is the wider clot for dist drive.
Now look at dist and turn the inner rotor to pass side at 11oclock or points at contact.Now is the drive slot looking like it is to engage with no turn only little of out way off.If you are out 180 degs you will pop thur carb.Why because valve is starting to open and firing at wrong time.
Rebuilt yes but is it right I know its bad for bussines but do you want it fixed.
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Old 09-07-2011, 10:53 AM   #74
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Default Re: 1937 No start

"does it matter if condenser is grounded to the ditributor mounting hole OR to one of the coil mounting screws?"

No. It does however matter in ease of removing the coil from the distributor without taking the distributor out of the car.

It's not unusual to swap coils, but if you have to take that bolt out, it's more work. So some later condensers are designed to attach to the coil mounting screws. Better plan.
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Old 09-07-2011, 10:59 AM   #75
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Thanks -
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Old 09-07-2011, 11:39 AM   #76
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Default Re: 1937 No start

Had timing cover off, so lined up timing marks on the cam / crank gears - then pulled #1 and #6 plugs to be sure that valves were closed, precautionary move, the "wider" part of distributor drive facing down and narrower one up - the "slot" was pointing at about at 11 oclock - and -==> inner rotor facing at 6 oclock and outer one at about 1 oclock<==- probably means that the distributor / rotor alignment is wrong?? Hence firing with valves open?? I then barred engine over with ditributor on until inner rotor was pointing at about 11 oclock atthe #1 tower on inner cap I had previously marked the distributor housing inside to assure rotor would be pointing to it and checked valves - #1 intake was open - it appears the cam / dist "sync" is out about 45 degrees?? Is that possible??
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Old 09-07-2011, 11:41 AM   #77
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Default Re: 1937 No start

it sounds like you have covered alot.....did you check the spark plug wires where they terminate in the distributor cap to make sure they are snug and did you verify that you are getting a spark at each plug?
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Old 09-07-2011, 11:44 AM   #78
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Default Re: 1937 No start

ok i would pull the intake off and look at all the valves and follow it through a complete firing order cycle. that way you get the real view instead of looking through a spark plug hole
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Old 09-07-2011, 11:47 AM   #79
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Default Re: 1937 No start

how is the rotor indexed inside the distributor? probably by a tab of some sort i wonder if this is broken off
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Old 09-07-2011, 12:01 PM   #80
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Default Re: 1937 No start

I,m glad you checked that ,you could have been there for days or years LOL, Bad Rotor for sure.
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