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Old 05-05-2017, 06:33 PM   #1
Tod
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Default New block

I just got an 8BA engine in that I plan on using the block for designing a new 8BA block. I need to tear it apart and then I can begin modeling up a new one with whatever improvements people can come up with. Any positive input will be appreciated.

I have several people already interested in these.

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Old 05-05-2017, 06:42 PM   #2
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Default Re: New block

Cool where ya get it

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Old 05-05-2017, 06:45 PM   #3
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Default Re: New block

Good luck, been tried several times before!
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Old 05-05-2017, 06:45 PM   #4
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Cool where ya get it

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A junkyard.

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Old 05-05-2017, 07:02 PM   #5
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Where in logansport

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Old 05-05-2017, 07:13 PM   #6
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Default Re: New block

Tod,

I wonder if there would be more of a market for the pre 1948 24 stud blocks? I believe that they are shorter and a better fit for the early cars. I am just an observer and not a customer for either.

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Old 05-05-2017, 07:52 PM   #7
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Default Re: New block

It seems that the old blocks had a tendency to crack. If you could eliminate that tendency, it would be great. I assume a design flaw in the original block, but what do I know?
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Old 05-05-2017, 07:54 PM   #8
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Default Re: New block

Thicker decks, stronger main bearing web area, move end exhaust ports out and enlarge.
Hope you have deep pockets.
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Old 05-05-2017, 08:15 PM   #9
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Default Re: New block

If you really want to reproduce this block, I suggest you talk to JWL and Ray Fedrosky. I also believe the block must be capable of receiving ALL fors original pieces parts.
Good luck
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Old 05-05-2017, 10:30 PM   #10
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Default Re: New block

Go man Go!
Flatheads Forever!
put an extra hole in the rear oil port to make the full flow oiling option easier, and thread ithe passage for a plug. I think a lot of the Canadian motors were done that way.
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Old 05-06-2017, 07:05 AM   #11
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Default Re: New block

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Originally Posted by JSeery View Post
Good luck, been tried several times before!
Is there no need for one?

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Old 05-06-2017, 07:09 AM   #12
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Default Re: New block

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Originally Posted by deuce_roadster View Post
Thicker decks, stronger main bearing web area, move end exhaust ports out and enlarge.
Hope you have deep pockets.
I like those ideas, but I want it to accept stock parts. I could always make alternate versions for the guys that want 8 exhaust ports and a couple of other non-stock ideas.

Why would I need deep pockets? This is far from my first block project.

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Old 05-06-2017, 08:12 AM   #13
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Default Re: New block

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Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Is there no need for one?

Tod
Don't think it is a question of need, it is a question of cost. The price would be way beyond the means of almost any interested buyer and the market very limited. About the only market would be Hot Rodders, competition bodies would not allow it and it is not original for the restoration folks.

To cast a block out of cast iron would be very difficult, developing the cores would be very difficult, on and on. The machine work along would be a major cost factor. I'm all for it if it could be done.

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Old 05-06-2017, 09:28 AM   #14
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Don't think it is a question of need, it is a question of cost. The price would be way beyond the means of almost any interested buyer and the market very limited. About the only market would be Hot Rodders, competition bodies would not allow it and it is not original for the restoration folks.

To cast a block out of cast iron would be very difficult, developing the cores would be very difficult, on and on. The machine work along would be a major cost factor. I'm all for it if it could be done.
So, this will be more difficult than anything else I've ever done? How much would it cost me to machine a block on one of my Horizontal CNC machines? More than the FE blocks I have done, or Clevelands, or Model A blocks?

Tod
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Old 05-06-2017, 09:34 AM   #15
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Default Re: New block

Yes, LOL. The flathead is a totally different animal. What are the foundry estimates? And who is building the core boxes? I have foundry experience and core design and manufacturing experience and know the cost involved. How many hours is involved in the machine work on say an FE block?
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Old 05-06-2017, 09:59 AM   #16
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Default Re: New block

Tod, I realize you asked for suggested improvements, but for those of us that have not built a block, can you walk us through how you do it? I imagine things like lost foam and 3-d printers but would like to hear how you go about it.
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Old 05-06-2017, 10:00 AM   #17
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Default Re: New block

He does very impressive work. https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...-works.616056/
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Old 05-06-2017, 10:05 AM   #18
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Default Re: New block

I've seen 3D printed sand cores, I say go for it, would you cast in aluminum?, its getting harder and harder to find decent rebuildable blocks.
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Old 05-06-2017, 10:29 AM   #19
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Default Re: New block

Just a couple of things to shoot for.
Perhaps concentrating on the bore size limitations of the blocks as they are. Allow extra material that would permit boring to an oversize that is more desirable to some without compromising reliability.
And give attention to better intake and exhaust flow characteristics.
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Old 05-06-2017, 11:00 AM   #20
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Default Re: New block

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Originally Posted by JSeery View Post
Yes, LOL. The flathead is a totally different animal. What are the foundry estimates? And who is building the core boxes? I have foundry experience and core design and manufacturing experience and know the cost involved. How many hours is involved in the machine work on say an FE block?
I have been in the industry for 40 years and have made castings much more difficult than a V8 flathead block. I have the ability to do all the design work, tooling work, and machine work. Core boxes are not hard to make. My first trade is pattern making. Engine blocks, even this one, are far from the most difficult thing I have done.

An example of machine time would be my Model A first OP which is most of the block, takes 5 hours running at 25% rapid travel and 40% feed rates. That is on my Toyoda FH55. I can cut a Cleveland or FE block in less than 20 hours on slow feed rates. I use slow feed rates because I am usually doing other things at the same time so I don't have to be hovering over all machining that is going on.

A casting this simple would probably be around $900. My investment will be negligible, so it allows me to make a return with little in it. I am also in the process of buying more foundry equipment than I already have to expand into pouring my own blocks. Even if I didn't, I have quality foundry people to count on.

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Old 05-06-2017, 11:00 AM   #21
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Default Re: New block

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Originally Posted by 51 MERC-CT View Post
Just a couple of things to shoot for.
Perhaps concentrating on the bore size limitations of the blocks as they are. Allow extra material that would permit boring to an oversize that is more desirable to some without compromising reliability.
And give attention to better intake and exhaust flow characteristics.
Yep.

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Old 05-06-2017, 11:01 AM   #22
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It seems that the old blocks had a tendency to crack. If you could eliminate that tendency, it would be great. I assume a design flaw in the original block, but what do I know?

That is one of the largest complaints.

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Old 05-06-2017, 11:09 AM   #23
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Default Re: New block

First issue improving the block is that it wont be allowed at historic racing.
So either a high nickel std 59AB block for trying to get it aproved in classic racing...that will be a fight...
Or an all out fairly stock looking 59AB raceblock.
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Old 05-06-2017, 11:13 AM   #24
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Tod, I realize you asked for suggested improvements, but for those of us that have not built a block, can you walk us through how you do it? I imagine things like lost foam and 3-d printers but would like to hear how you go about it.
I usually resist going through everything I do because I have a lot of things I do that are not common knowledge. Most things are obvious, but I do things in design that nobody else does. I will never divulge those secrets.

Basically, I design the block. Then I decide how I want to cast it. I then design the tooling to facilitate the pouring process. Sometimes changes to processes are necessary due to different foundry methods and capabilities. The auto makers do things a certain way (with billions invested) to make castings as cheap as possible and as quickly as possible. For example, Ford foundry in Cleveland was producing one V8 block every 39 seconds on one of their automatic lines. It takes me about 30 minutes to assemble one of my molds and have it ready to pour. I do not used lost foam at all in my blocks. Printed core technology is very expensive right now, but also easier in some ways. You need to know what to do and when and how it all effects end cost. If I spend more for printed cores it will save time and cost elsewhere, but is it enough? Do I eat some cost and reduce profit? It all needs accounted for.

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Old 05-06-2017, 11:42 AM   #25
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Default Re: New block

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Originally Posted by Tod View Post
I have been in the industry for 40 years and have made castings much more difficult than a V8 flathead block. I have the ability to do all the design work, tooling work, and machine work. Core boxes are not hard to make. My first trade is pattern making. Engine blocks, even this one, are far from the most difficult thing I have done.

An example of machine time would be my Model A first OP which is most of the block, takes 5 hours running at 25% rapid travel and 40% feed rates. That is on my Toyoda FH55. I can cut a Cleveland or FE block in less than 20 hours on slow feed rates. I use slow feed rates because I am usually doing other things at the same time so I don't have to be hovering over all machining that is going on.

A casting this simple would probably be around $900. My investment will be negligible, so it allows me to make a return with little in it. I am also in the process of buying more foundry equipment than I already have to expand into pouring my own blocks. Even if I didn't, I have quality foundry people to count on.

Tod
Sounds good, if you can cut out all the outside cost and are not interested in normal commercial profit margins it might be feasible. 20 hours of machine work at normal rates would be very expensive (as you well know). I was also a pattern and core maker when younger, so I know the process, (mainly brass and aluminum, but some cast iron). Sounds like you have it under control!
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Old 05-06-2017, 12:20 PM   #26
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Default Re: New block

Tod, I would think that core design would be the area in which the greatest improvement could be attained over the original methods. Coolant flow, cavitation, hot spots, and heat transfer capability should be given a high priority.
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Old 05-06-2017, 12:41 PM   #27
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Default Re: New block

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If you don't spend any time snooping-around over on the Model A side of the house, most of you would have no idea that Tod is not a newcomer to this "Design and build from scratch" idea. Y'all would do good to listen intently when Tod speaks about manufacturing engine blocks, etc! DD
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Old 05-06-2017, 12:53 PM   #28
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If you don't spend any time snooping-around over on the Model A side of the house, most of you would have no idea that Tod is not a newcomer to this "Design and build from scratch" idea. Y'all would do good to listen intently when Tod speaks about manufacturing engine blocks, etc! DD
Never mind the stuff flying around overhead, on the railroad tracks, tractor-trailer, military tanks, and all over the world in cars. The NHRA records mean nothing, too. But after listening to all the crap where I posted this info (not just here), I'm not sure I will be messing with it. Sounds like a block is not needed and I have been misled as to a need for an 8BA block.

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Old 05-06-2017, 01:24 PM   #29
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Never mind the stuff flying around overhead, on the railroad tracks, tractor-trailer, military tanks, and all over the world in cars. The NHRA records mean nothing, too. But after listening to all the crap where I posted this info (not just here), I'm not sure I will be messing with it. Sounds like a block is not needed and I have been misled as to a need for an 8BA block.

Tod
Well, for all the complainers and whiners that seem to have such a difficult time any more finding a usable core.......one more timely option seems to have just dried-up. This was probably the last REAL chance for a replacement flathead block to be produced and actually delivered to waiting customers. Sad!! You surely do nice work, Tod. Your credentials speak volumes. DD
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Old 05-06-2017, 02:28 PM   #30
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Default Re: New block

Tod, please don't let the nay sayers discourage you. I think there would be as large a market for a flathead block as there is for the Model A block and maybe larger. I think it would be imperative that the new block use original internal parts. And i think the '39 -'48 block would be a LOT more desirable. I second the recomendation to get in touch with JohnLawson. Followed your progress on the Model A block, beautiful.
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Old 05-06-2017, 02:57 PM   #31
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Tod, please don't let the nay sayers discourage you. I think there would be as large a market for a flathead block as there is for the Model A block and maybe larger. I think it would be imperative that the new block use original internal parts. And i think the '39 -'48 block would be a LOT more desirable. I second the recomendation to get in touch with JohnLawson. Followed your progress on the Model A block, beautiful.
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I don't care about naysayers. I know what I can do. First I hear there is a need for blocks then I hear there are plenty, then I hear others are making one. I have better stuff to do than listen to nonsense. Same BS, different day.

I have Model A orders to fill. Blocks and heads. Got the new OHV about ready too, with buyers waiting.

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Old 05-06-2017, 04:12 PM   #32
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Default Re: New block

I'm not sure what the French blocks are going for now days or if folks are even purchasing any of them or not. The 8BA block would make more sense from its adaptability standpoint. Folks would need the pickup/Mercury pressings or maybe the 51 Mercury bell housing casting to adapt them to the early configuration types. If say $2500 per copy is do-able then there may be a market.

There will come a time when the old ones get played pretty well out but that may not be in my lifetime. I've purchased stuff like that before when an effort to make things like new was needed. There would be some market but I certainly wouldn't be the one to figure how much of one there'd be.

The Aluminum large bore set up that Mark Kirby started has some promise but it seems to be in limbo right now. After the big slump in 2008 folks have been holding on to their purse strings a little tighter.

Bottom line is that all of us would like to be able to go out and buy new parts like this but how many of us actually would is the mystery.
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Old 05-06-2017, 04:17 PM   #33
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Default Re: New block

Hmm, I didn't think there was a whole lot of naysaying or BS. Looked like a lot of people were intrigued and some offered suggestions. Oh well.
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Old 05-06-2017, 04:40 PM   #34
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Hmm, I didn't think there was a whole lot of naysaying or BS. Looked like a lot of people were intrigued and some offered suggestions. Oh well.
Hence the (not just here) notation. I took the suggestions in and tried to correct the naysaying that obviously questioned my ability to do this. I will be designing a new one with various suggestions included while talking with others, but I sure won't be in any hurry with all the conflicting talk floating around in just the first day.

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Old 05-06-2017, 04:57 PM   #35
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Default Re: New block

Folks that didn't know who you are before, including myself, just needed to know more. You are not the only person to bring this up in the past few years and some that have previously likely didnt have the skill sets you possess so you have to bear with us till some of us get more familiar with you and your capabilities. There are quite a few folks that frequent here that have a lot of years in the hobby and may be skeptical of folks they don't know so well yet.
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Old 05-06-2017, 05:18 PM   #36
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Default Re: New block

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
I just got an 8BA engine in that I plan on using the block for designing a new 8BA block. I need to tear it apart and then I can begin modeling up a new one with whatever improvements people can come up with. Any positive input will be appreciated.

I have several people already interested in these.

Tod
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Hmm, I didn't think there was a whole lot of naysaying or BS. Looked like a lot of people were intrigued and some offered suggestions. Oh well.
Tod's reputation did not precede him here, nor did he initially clue us in on his abilities. I think our responses were appropriate under the circumstances, and certainly considerably more polite than he may have expected.
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Old 05-06-2017, 06:07 PM   #37
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.......

The Aluminum large bore set up that Mark Kirby started has some promise but it seems to be in limbo right now. After the big slump in 2008 folks have been holding on to their purse strings a little tighter.

Bottom line is that all of us would like to be able to go out and buy new parts like this but how many of us actually would is the mystery.
Here is a post that I previously made on the Kirby project, while impressive I think it's need for many proprietary parts makes it a loser, and doubtful that it will ever be seen in production.

I think the video shows why the project was aborted. In addition to Mark Kirby there was an additional brain trust involved in the project and they re-engineered the whole package. There isn't much they left on the table that is not unique to the MCFH aluminum block; d-ports, smaller, relocated head studs, roller cam and unique guides, proprietary heads needed for new stud locations, revised oil pan, water pumps, front cover, cam gears, Fluiddamper balancer and on and on.
It is for certain a complete work of engineering excellence, but all the upgrades made it out of reach ($$$$$) for the typical hobbiest and it's for that reason I think the project was shelved. Who wouldn't want one, but how many could pay for, or justify the cost?
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Old 05-06-2017, 09:12 PM   #38
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Default Re: New block

Tod,

Ignore the gloom and doom folks. I am sure you will do your homework and make the best decision. Personally, I admire you for what you have done and am certain the future will bode well as long as you keep your finger in the flathead pie.
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Old 05-06-2017, 09:26 PM   #39
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I don't care about naysayers. I know what I can do. First I hear there is a need for blocks then I hear there are plenty, then I hear others are making one. I have better stuff to do than listen to nonsense. Same BS, different day.

I have Model A orders to fill. Blocks and heads. Got the new OHV about ready too, with buyers waiting.

Tod
Tod, If you can produce a finished block for about 2k then do it. If not wait a few more years and re evaluate. No b/s needed.
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Old 05-06-2017, 11:33 PM   #40
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Default Re: New block

Tod
I have to say that at one time I thought the same thing, it would be just too expensive. However, the improvements in the casting and machining processes has changed my mind. Especially when a person ike yourself has the knowledge and wherewithal to attempt this at a reasonable cost. At present everything is available from the aftermarket, except the block. just think a nice 265 ci flathead with (8:1CR) with all stock parts in it except the pistons and block. Make a nice street engine for anyone.
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Old 05-07-2017, 12:27 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN View Post
If you don't spend any time snooping-around over on the Model A side of the house, most of you would have no idea that Tod is not a newcomer to this "Design and build from scratch" idea. Y'all would do good to listen intently when Tod speaks about manufacturing engine blocks, etc! DD

True. Been interesting to read his progress on the A pages.
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Old 05-07-2017, 06:13 AM   #42
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Default Re: New block

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Originally Posted by Tod View Post
I just got an 8BA engine in that I plan on using the block for designing a new 8BA block. I need to tear it apart and then I can begin modeling up a new one with whatever improvements people can come up with. Any positive input will be appreciated.

I have several people already interested in these.

Tod
Maybe I have some comprehension problems but the only thing I see him asking for is improvements. Responses like full flow oil and thicker decks are good answers. I'm assuming that the improved technology of casting iron will help with the crack issue. A heavier duty web system would make it desirable for hot rodders. H&H makes am aluminum Ardun only block so there might be a market for it. But that is not what Tod asked.
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Old 05-07-2017, 09:35 AM   #43
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Default Re: New block

I wonder if there would be a way to make the rear of the block casting so you could change cores and have the old style bellhousing or even something like a smallblock Ford. Could save people from having to look for parts or buy adapters. Just a question.
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Old 05-07-2017, 09:52 AM   #44
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First of all, I would like to say that I have been following Tod's progress on the Model "A" block on the H.A.M.B. for the last several years, and have been very impressed. That being said, I think the project may not be worth pursuing for a very different reason. The guys mainly interested in these are all aging fast. Let's face it; a lot of us will be gone in the next ten years. I am willing to bet that there is an adequate supply of good flathead blocks stashed away by guys like us. I'm not nearly as serious about flatheads as most on this forum, but I have four good blocks "under the bench". Some of the guys out there (you know who you are) probably have 10 or more in their stashes. When this generation starts passing, these blocks will become available. I wouldn't be surprised that in 10 or 20 years, the supply of good blocks may exceed the demand. It's really hard to contemplate your own mortality, but those are the facts.

Oh, and I doubt if any of these will mistakenly go to the scrapper. I have made the facts of the value of this stuff abundantly clear to my family, so I believe they realize that some of this stuff is worth a lot. I have noticed on several of the forums I frequent that a lot of other guys in my situation are dong the same thing.
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Old 05-07-2017, 10:18 AM   #45
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tubman, have your "stashed" blocks already been cleaned, magnafluxed, etc and are known to be usable without repair? I'm new to FH V8's but around my neck of the woods a 8ba that isn't froze up sells for 500-800 dollars and seems most buy at least 2 or 3 before they find one good enough to get repaired...
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Old 05-07-2017, 10:59 AM   #46
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I wonder if there would be a way to make the rear of the block casting so you could change cores and have the old style bellhousing or even something like a smallblock Ford. Could save people from having to look for parts or buy adapters. Just a question.
That is very possible.

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Old 05-07-2017, 01:49 PM   #47
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Default Re: New block

To expand on the bell housing topic, - put enough beef in it to be safely mounted on and engine stand.
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Old 05-07-2017, 01:59 PM   #48
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As far as I'm concerned, if Tod could build a block that would accept stock parts, fit in the truck the way it is supposed to, and be able to be bored out, stroked, relieved, ported I'd buy one as soon as I could afford one.
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Old 05-07-2017, 04:50 PM   #49
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Tod the answer to your question about improvements is easy the way I see it. If you were able to get your hands on one of the French flathead blocks that were cast in the eighty's those blocks in my opinion have every improvement all of us would be happy with.
The deck thickness, material used in casting, the exhaust port design the center main support are just a few improvements compared to the Ford blocks.
Over the last few years I have been progressively pushing the Ford and French blocks to their limits in my Land Speed racing endeavors. Using gasoline and blower boost which is hard on any engine its extremely hard on our beloved flathead Ford V-8. The French block hands down takes far more abuse than the Ford casting before experiencing any failures. I would be happy to talk to you about this if your are interested.
Tod taking on this project I know from your experiance it will be worth the time and effort and some of us will certainly be buying the block when it becomes avalible.
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Old 05-07-2017, 05:58 PM   #50
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Ron the roadster has a good point, but from a manufacturing point of view, I think the 8BA rear of the block would be the best choice as you can bolt any transmission made by Ford from 32 to 53 to it using stock parts. Yes there are some porting improvements that could be addressed with out affecting the use of stock parts. I think the biggest customer is a street builder who want's a reliable engine and not a 75 year odl casting.
Good luck.
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Old 05-07-2017, 07:24 PM   #51
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Tod, at 900$ a block I would think there would quite a demand for them.
A guaranteed good block for 900$ heck yeah!!
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Old 05-07-2017, 07:32 PM   #52
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900$ ???????????????
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Old 05-07-2017, 07:50 PM   #53
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Tod, at 900$ a block I would think there would quite a demand for them.
A guaranteed good block for 900$ heck yeah!!
Thats a raw casting, not a finished machined block......
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Old 05-07-2017, 10:35 PM   #54
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Last year I got a call for a block for a rebuild for a large 38 truck. I didn't have any early blocks for sale. A few months later I met him and he said he bought an 8bA block for 700 dollars. I thought that was alittle hi, but he said he couldn't find any good ones.
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:39 AM   #55
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Tod, at 900$ a block I would think there would quite a demand for them.
A guaranteed good block for 900$ heck yeah!!
I was being grilled about my knowledge of the industries involved in getting a block to market. I estimated that a CASTING would cost $900. That is based on what I know my other block castings have cost over the last 20 years. Then they need machined, caps, and finish machining.

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Old 05-08-2017, 05:53 AM   #56
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Give us an estimate...im familiar with the cost for developing stuff so if you come up with a number that will work i gladly pitch in to a development fond.
Ill donate $100 to research and development !!
Think there are more people around here that will do the same to make sure something like this really happens.
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Old 05-08-2017, 06:12 AM   #57
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I'm initially estimating blocks rough machined and ready for finish machining, which means to individual customer specs in the low to mid 2k range ($2300-$2500) (I have found that people want different things like bore size, bushed lifter bores, cam bearings, deck heights, etc... but that all might not apply to this project).

The idea would be to supply machined blocks that can be finished by competent builders to stock and further. I learned early on when making FE blocks that no 2 people seem to want the same things so the best way to go about it from my end was supply something that could make any thing. Finish machine cost would depend on how much a person wants to veer from stock. If it is feasible, I could have finish machining done in my shop or locally by reputable shops. I do not have a line bore or line hone so I cannot do that right now. If need be I can figure on getting into that.

A 5 main version, or one with other modifications that have come up would obviously cost a little more.

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Old 05-08-2017, 08:55 AM   #58
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So a guy looking to build a hot rod goes out and buys himself an 8ba core motor complete carb to pan for $800.00. Tears it down and sends it to the machine shop where it is cleaned and maged only to find out it is cracked. OK so at this point he is down about 1k.
What to do now? Buy another core and repeat process with fingers crossed? find a good used block if lucky enough for 700.00 and still have to invest into reconditioning it?? Or buy a new machined block and take the guessing out of the equation? Pretty simple answer. By offering a new fully machined block you take the guess work out of what it would cost to build one and remove the risk of getting buried in a pile of junk cracked blocks. Your estimate is ball park where you need to be, although I would like it to be about 2200.00 max, but im a cheap bastard anyways.
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Old 05-08-2017, 09:27 AM   #59
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Default Re: New block

Changing the main journal structure would take a different bottom end too. I think you have the right idea. If you stray too far from the OEM it complicates things. That may have been what stumped the Motor City project.

I think the French made block's biggest improvement was the modern casting material formula. It's a hybrid of the early 239 CID 99A/59A types and the later 8BA types. My only problem with it is that it is already relieved. Not much choice there. Even SF flatheads decided to remove that big governor lump on the back too. Starting with a fresh casting would eliminate stuff like that.

The 8BA would be the easier one to cast. The half bell part of the earlier block alone makes it a more complicated project. Changing exhaust ports may complicate things too. If anything grows larger or changes shape it makes for changes to water jackets or other internal/external block dimensions. Most Folks would like to be able to go out to at least 3 3/8" without worry but if the bore size grows too much, the whole block will have to grow too. I don't think anyone wants a 337 Lincoln sized block.
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Old 05-08-2017, 09:50 AM   #60
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If a new cast block was priced at say $2500 I would think you could sell them faster than you could produce them!
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Old 05-08-2017, 10:25 AM   #61
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Default Re: New block

Knowing that it was a "good" block would make it well worth that amount.
Folks realize building a flatty is no longer cheap.
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Old 05-08-2017, 01:15 PM   #62
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2500 for a fully machined block. That means the valve job is done and the cylinders a bored to standard. The top is decked too. Guys wanting to go big would not have to worry about sonic testing or core shifts. Here's an idea that was not mentioned. Do we really need those big valve guides? Could the be machined for a modern press in bronze guide? I realize there might be an issue machining the lifter bores.
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Old 05-08-2017, 02:25 PM   #63
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Tod,

You obviously have the knowledge to do this so I say if you have done your homework on demand and cost and believe your business case is solid then go for it. Original blocks are getting harder and harder to find. If you can come up with a cost effective replacement then go for it.
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Old 05-08-2017, 03:32 PM   #64
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After doing some more model work to my OHV water jacket model I ran around some and while I was out I stopped by the foundry to pick up 6 of my new iron Thomas heads. Then I went back to the shop and tore most of the top of the 8BA off. Looks like one cylinder is the culprit in this one binding up.

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Old 05-08-2017, 04:59 PM   #65
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Neat! Iron Thomas heads!
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:10 PM   #66
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Tod,
You are amazing. Just the kind of person flathead folks need.
Keep doing your thing.
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:23 PM   #67
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GOD speed sir!!! I'm 83
Good luck!
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:57 PM   #68
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I'm with Coop and I'm 84. Wish I lived near you, I'd help.
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Old 05-08-2017, 06:01 PM   #69
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I love the idea . . . and I'm going to help if I can to make this happen!
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Old 05-08-2017, 06:13 PM   #70
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I hate to jump in this great post, But If I sell a block and it is bad.. YOU get your money back or another Block. I hate to see fellows spend money for both the part and the inspection. aka I have a cracked Merc crank for free to any one, after a buyer had it inspected! Love the Barn Newc
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Old 05-09-2017, 05:49 PM   #71
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How about making an iron master cylinder with stainless sleeve that is like a 1940 ford 3 bolt pattern, but has dual reservoir for front and rear brakes and provision for the stock brake light switch on the back. That would be great! I wish that existed.
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Old 05-10-2017, 09:13 AM   #72
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you are too good to be true..
question ? how many people help you ?
wish I was near you --- I would pay to help
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Old 05-10-2017, 12:45 PM   #73
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Tod: are you going to start a gofundme or Kickstarter campaign to fund production, I've been looking for a decent rebuildable block for almost a year not having much luck, so I'm interested.
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Old 05-10-2017, 03:16 PM   #74
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you are too good to be true..
question ? how many people help you ?
wish I was near you --- I would pay to help

I do all design work myself, all tooling work myself, all machine programming myself, all fixturing myself, and I have help to run normal day-to-day production on easy stuff. Harder things, I have to do myself.

If I was really too good to be true I could find a job and not have to do all this. Nobody will hire me, after they see my resume.

I will need more help if I can get investors to come through on my new foundry. I have several people that want in and I am looking at places to put the foundry and move my machine shop along side of. And YES, I actually know what is involved in pouring metal, having owned a foundry in the past, as well as working with at least 50 foundries around the country over the last 40 years. My foundry will pour all my blocks, heads, intakes, headers, and other stuff I have ability to get in the door. Huge potential!

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Old 05-10-2017, 03:21 PM   #75
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Tod: are you going to start a gofundme or Kickstarter campaign to fund production, I've been looking for a decent rebuildable block for almost a year not having much luck, so I'm interested.
I was not planning any funding effort like those. I plan to model the block up and then see if people are interested. The Model A crowd had some 120 blocks asked for so I moved on with that based on that start. I am just about to get production cores for that project and it will be into casting mode. I have machined a few castings already and have one running on YouTube to show people what they can expect. This is not my first time making an engine block.

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Old 05-10-2017, 03:45 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Jason in TX View Post
How about making an iron master cylinder with stainless sleeve that is like a 1940 ford 3 bolt pattern, but has dual reservoir for front and rear brakes and provision for the stock brake light switch on the back. That would be great! I wish that existed.
67 Econoline-ish?
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Old 05-10-2017, 03:52 PM   #77
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I would love to have the functionality of the dual master cylinder

(this)


with the mounting flange of this




Without having to use this adapter




Maybe the casting could look like this, but have two plugs on the top and two outlets on the side, and brake switch outlet on the back.






This is Econoline

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Old 05-10-2017, 04:18 PM   #78
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I would love to have the functionality of the dual master cylinder

(this)


with the mounting flange of this




Without having to use this adapter




Maybe the casting could look like this, but have two plugs on the top and two outlets on the side, and brake switch outlet on the back.






This is Econoline

The cost of development means quite a few need to be sold. Tooling for something like that would be a couple thousand, then it needs to be machined, requiring fixturing and programming. Maybe another couple thousand. Then there are the internals and what-nots. I'm not sure what master cylinders cost, but a new one would need to be competitively priced, I would think. Doable, but can enough be sold to make it worth doing? I have no idea.

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Old 05-10-2017, 04:22 PM   #79
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^^ long one of my wishes too, with residual valves built in, a pressure switch tapping and a 1-1/16" bore. Ports for 1/4" lines straight in would be good too.

I think we just went off on a tangent.

I like the idea of a new block, though, Tod. I'm afraid I'd never be in the market for one, though.

With so little background info in the original post it is easy to see why some did not take it seriously. Kudos, though, you have the experience to pull this one off.

Mart.
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Old 05-10-2017, 05:35 PM   #80
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Master cylinders are kind of off topic except for the form of manufacture. Dual masters have to have two separate pressure chambers along with the dual reservoirs. Just like anything else, when you modify a casting design, everything grows. It might just be easier to find the best dual master available and settle for that. As long as my E-brake works good, I don't worry much about having a single chamber master cylinder. I owned a lot of cars before I finally had one set up that way and I never had any troubles with them.
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Old 05-10-2017, 08:02 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aonemarine View Post
So a guy looking to build a hot rod goes out and buys himself an 8ba core motor complete carb to pan for $800.00. Tears it down and sends it to the machine shop where it is cleaned and maged only to find out it is cracked. OK so at this point he is down about 1k.
What to do now? Buy another core and repeat process with fingers crossed? find a good used block if lucky enough for 700.00 and still have to invest into reconditioning it?? Or buy a new machined block and take the guessing out of the equation? Pretty simple answer. By offering a new fully machined block you take the guess work out of what it would cost to build one and remove the risk of getting buried in a pile of junk cracked blocks.
Here's a real world example, mine. I needed a block for my 36 PU when the one in it lost a babbit main bearing. I don't want to swap a later style engine in, I really want to keep the water pumps in the heads to keep it relatively stock looking. So I started searching for the holy grail of blocks, the 36LB 21 stud block which was the last year of pump in head blocks and the first of insert bearings, used in late 36 models. I bought 6 engines looking for good blocks and finally had to settle for a 37-38 block and use block off plates for the water pump holes in order to use my pump heads. Each engine cost a few hundred dollars, varying length trips to acquire, then each required a full day or more of hard messy work to get apart, some worse than others, then a trip out of town to get it cleaned and magnafluxed. some even require a torch to get apart, and usually it takes a half day to clean the shop up afterward. The bill for hot tanking and magnafluxing can be from $250 to $400 depending on the condition of the greasy POS that I drop off. And another trip to inspect and retrieve it afterward. All 6 were junk for one reason or another. I have WAY over $4K in scrap cast iron for 2 years of scrounging. I finally bought a good 37-38 block from a Ford Barner for $500 and added $200 to ship it to me. Then had it magnafluxed again here just to be sure. Then lots of time to pull the head studs out of the block, and remove the broken pieces of the studs that didn't come out in one piece. Now I go on to cleaning the waterjackets, digging out the foundry sand left from the Rouge plant, and removing the scale and rust from years of straight water and sitting empty in the winter with acid, all the while hoping I don't find a water leak that didn't show up in magnafluxing as a crack, so then go on to pressure testing. Now I'm ready to convert the oil passages to 95% filtering - After getting that %^^&* oil passage plug out of the rear of the main galley.

NOW I'm ready to bore, hone, grind seats, scrub, check head gasket surfaces for flatness, the mains for straightness, etc, etc,etc.
I'm relatively new to flatheads but I've been building restoring and racing since the late '60s. I own a machine shop that mfgs. driveline parts and does job shop work, so I'm able to do a lot of my own work. All that time spent on junk blocks was time I could have been charging customers or making product. $2500 for a block I could use with a bit of machine work would have been the biggest bargain I've had in years.


As the supply of old junk engines dwindles further and the cost of rebuilding them increases your block will only get more valuable and desirable.

On the subject of what to make, it seems to me the 59A blocks are more desired for rodders, because they fit better in pre-49 cars, including model A swaps.

When It seemed I'd never find a good 21 stud block I considered using a 59A style block and adapting the early heads somehow. Poking around in a 24 stud block revealed that the stud holes have a cast boss on the underside of the block deck to provide longer threads for the studs, so that meant I couldn't just redrill a block. If it did have the thickness where it was needed, it would have been doable, there were no water holes that conflicted IIRC. I considered building 24 stud heads that accepted water pumps, during that time I found that Willy Glass had in fact done that by modifying Edelbrock heads. About then I found the good block I have now so I didn't go any further.

So - if you build a 59a block and leave material in the deck to allow drilling for the 21 stud pattern, that would expand your potential market to the earlier car folks who want to drive their early cars. it would give them a block that could be bored much larger than the 3.188" that the 37 is limited to, and would accept a longer 4"+ stroke crank all in new insert bearings instead of scrounging for NOS bearing shells for the early cranks.
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Old 05-11-2017, 11:14 AM   #82
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There may be some slight differences on location for the two bolts on each end of the deck but the bottom of the deck is where the real difference lies between 21 and 24 stud motors. If the deck were made thicker down there all the way along the bottom it might be doable to make some interchangeability between the two types. The 21 has five holes down there and the 24 has 8 so maybe...? It might make the deck a bit stonger too.

If a half bell casting was made for the back that could simulate the early style blocks better and use the early type oil pan, an 8BA type could possibly be adapted killing two birds with one stone. Just about everything else could be worked around one way or another.

All are just thoughts but maybe worth kicking it around.
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Old 05-11-2017, 11:55 AM   #83
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Default Re: New block

The last two posters make interesting points. There seem to be three major groups of flatheads; 21 studs, early 24 studs, and late 24 studs (8BA). By making one specific type of block, you would be eliminating about half the potential market. "rotorwrench" expressed some potential ways that all three groups MAY be able to be accommodated. (I am not familiar enough with the engineering aspects of the three basic types of blocks to even venture a guess as to whether it would even be technically possible to do this.) The drawback of a block like this is that it would not be legal in most racing associations, although I suspect that may change with the passage of time. I am also one of those who have no need for one, but it is fun to sit back and watch. I have really appreciated "Tod"'s thread on the H.A.M.B. about the 4 cylinder block and heads, and I hope to be seeing a similar one about V8's. Keep up the good work!
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Old 05-11-2017, 12:41 PM   #84
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Default Re: New block

There is also info out there about the 351 Cleveland blocks too. Not so much about the FE blocks. I think he is getting to know his way around foundries & machines OK.
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Old 05-11-2017, 01:44 PM   #85
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I CMMed a pair of new Victor head gaskets as a rough way to get the bolt patterns for 21 and 24 stud heads. The red circles are 24 stud and the blue circles are 21 stud. It looks like there are 12 holes that are the same, the row across the top and the holes between the cylinders.
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Old 05-11-2017, 02:10 PM   #86
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The last two posters make interesting points. There seem to be three major groups of flatheads; 21 studs, early 24 studs, and late 24 studs (8BA). By making one specific type of block, you would be eliminating about half the potential market. "rotorwrench" expressed some potential ways that all three groups MAY be able to be accommodated. (I am not familiar enough with the engineering aspects of the three basic types of blocks to even venture a guess as to whether it would even be technically possible to do this.) The drawback of a block like this is that it would not be legal in most racing associations, although I suspect that may change with the passage of time. I am also one of those who have no need for one, but it is fun to sit back and watch. I have really appreciated "Tod"'s thread on the H.A.M.B. about the 4 cylinder block and heads, and I hope to be seeing a similar one about V8's. Keep up the good work!
I can always make 2 blocks. 21 stud and 24 stud. It really isn't that hard.

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Old 05-11-2017, 02:12 PM   #87
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There is also info out there about the 351 Cleveland blocks too. Not so much about the FE blocks. I think he is getting to know his way around foundries & machines OK.
My FE blocks were the original Genesis effort and the current "Pond" block. Pond and I were partners for a while until I sold out my half. I've been doing this kind of stuff for 40 years. Just in the last 15-18 in a more public view.

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Old 05-11-2017, 02:37 PM   #88
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I can always make 2 blocks. 21 stud and 24 stud. It really isn't that hard.

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I will take a 21 stud block, 36 LB type,
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Old 05-11-2017, 03:33 PM   #89
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Default Re: New block

In the 21 stud range there were the 32 thru part of 35 that were all very similar with only minor machining & casting changes. Then the late 35/36 with replaceable bearing shells and the 37/38 block with the first block mounted pumps.

24 stud blocks started with the 38 through 40 221 CID with the 239 CID blocks starting in 1939. The 1939 99A block was supposed to be the one that had the thickest cylinder walls for boring of all the flathead blocks. In 1941, the castings changed in several ways but I'm not sure how far it went internally. They did away with the core sand holes in the pan rails and reduced the amount of iron around the intake deck. This was also done to the 239 CID blocks and these carried through to WWII. It's possible that the 19A (1941) 239 blocks had the same cylinder wall thickness as the post war blocks but I don't know that for sure.

The post war 59 series was a good solid 239 block but there was also the 41A type that was a replacement for prewar 221 blocks but had some characteristics of the 59A block as well. I'm sure they used some of the same cores between the two but not all since the 221 had thinner cylinder walls.

8BA blocks had three changes but they were mostly machining changes to valve pockets without hard seats and such. The basic block stayed the same all the way through the end of production.

I'd love it if you could get any block you wanted but obviously a person would have to draw a line there somewhere with that many changes during the flathead era. Where to draw it is up to the person doing the production on the project. I'd settle for 8BA myself but others might like the 59 type block. Make a 59 type casting that could be set up for machine capability for either 21 stud or 24 would give more choices for those folks and keep production casting to a minimum. Something else to think about anyway.
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Old 05-11-2017, 03:49 PM   #90
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Default Re: New block

All of the various flathead un-cracked blocks are hard to find. ESPECIALLY the 21 stud variety. I would wager that if you were to start looking for any good flathead block today, you would most likely find a 24 stud one. IF you found any at all.
Therefore, I would hope that 21 stud block will end up in the final casting process.
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Old 05-11-2017, 04:14 PM   #91
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All of the various flathead un-cracked blocks are hard to find. ESPECIALLY the 21 stud variety. I would wager that if you were to start looking for any good flathead block today, you would most likely find a 24 stud one. IF you found any at all.
Therefore, I would hope that 21 stud block will end up in the final casting process.
I think a 21 stud block can be part of the mix.

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Old 05-11-2017, 04:25 PM   #92
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When did the cam position and the valve angles change? Would the later valve angles cause any issues in a 21 stud engine - valve to head clearance, etc?

I remember this being discussed here, with Ford drawings and etc, but didn't retain it because it didn't affect what I am doing (so far). Wish I had now.
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Old 05-11-2017, 04:36 PM   #93
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The valve angles changed in the post war production with the 59 series. It may have happened during the war but I'd bet it was with the tool up for the 59A in 1945. As far as changes are concerned, Ford made sure that tooling for relieving the chambers around the valves was available to the dealers. This way the prewar heads could be used on the post war blocks. The tooling was just a small jig with a cutter tool.
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Old 05-11-2017, 08:00 PM   #94
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Me (as a performance and race builder) would think about the following -- just to kick it around:
1) Thicker deck surface - like 1/2" - with the bosses for stud locations
2) Thicker or better engineered main webs - especially the middle one.
3) Ability to configure your core boxes for a 3 or a 5 main lower end.
4) Improve the oiling system a bit (galley design) - such that it is easy to put a full-flow filter on it and have 100% filtered oil to everything.
5) Provide the block in a non-relieved state - makes it possible for the Ardun guys to use it (or other OHV designs) . . . and plenty of guys don't use reliefs anyway.
6) Improve the intake port and bowl design for better flow. Think about press in bronze guides (like the flathead Cadillac) - instead of the guides we have today. They make a mess of the port floor and have a lot of slop in their fitment.
7) Improve the exhaust port - add a cast in divider in the middle, better flow for all, but same flange on the outside
8) Consider the ability to bore to 3.5" - I believe we can still seal the chambers at that diameter.
9) Consider an aluminum block with steel liners. I would love to be able to make a lighter weight flathead.
10) I think folks like the 59AB pan and water pump setup the best, but maybe there is a way to make the block such that you could bolt on a 59AB 1/2 bell - and run the 59AB style pan. The biggest area to figure out will be the rear main cap (so the pan can seal).

Okay - some off the hip thoughts!
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Old 05-11-2017, 08:25 PM   #95
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Default Re: New block

too bad no one can find the sand molds for the French blocks..
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Old 05-11-2017, 08:36 PM   #96
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Default Re: New block

The more I think about it, the more I like "Tod"'s original idea for an 8BA block. If you want the back end to be pre-49 style, there are lots of Merc and Ford truck bellhousings out there. The fronts are similar enough that guys have been "mixing and matching" cams, front covers, and distributors for years. The one thing mentioned that might be nice is the provisions for both 21 and 24 stud configurations. It will be a pretty small sacrifice for the guys wanting early 21 stud with head mounted water pumps to give up poured babbitt bearings and to run water pump block off plates, which could be configured to mimic the front of an early block. Basically a 21 stud 8BA.

Other than that, I'll defer to "Bored&Stroked"s list of improvements since he's been around the block (pun intended) a time or two. To go to all of this effort without incorporating some obvious improvements would be foolhardy.

I just realized that I have talked myself into precisely "Tod"'s original position. I guess he must be right!

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Old 05-11-2017, 08:44 PM   #97
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Good for you Todd I love it when somebody tells me I can't do something or just drive me harder there's no doubt my mind that you can get the job done !
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Old 05-12-2017, 07:03 AM   #98
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Are the 21 stud and 24 stud blocks basically the same externally? If the stud holes are the only difference that matters I can easily make 2 configurations and make both.

It would be nice to get my hands on blue prints. I can start this any time. Actually, I can start without blue prints and probably will, but prints always help with accuracy.

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Old 05-12-2017, 07:05 AM   #99
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too bad no one can find the sand molds for the French blocks..
It takes a pattern to make sand molds. Those would do me no good since my plan is different.

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Old 05-12-2017, 07:14 AM   #100
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Me (as a performance and race builder) would think about the following -- just to kick it around:
1) Thicker deck surface - like 1/2" - with the bosses for stud locations
2) Thicker or better engineered main webs - especially the middle one.
3) Ability to configure your core boxes for a 3 or a 5 main lower end.
4) Improve the oiling system a bit (galley design) - such that it is easy to put a full-flow filter on it and have 100% filtered oil to everything.
5) Provide the block in a non-relieved state - makes it possible for the Ardun guys to use it (or other OHV designs) . . . and plenty of guys don't use reliefs anyway.
6) Improve the intake port and bowl design for better flow. Think about press in bronze guides (like the flathead Cadillac) - instead of the guides we have today. They make a mess of the port floor and have a lot of slop in their fitment.
7) Improve the exhaust port - add a cast in divider in the middle, better flow for all, but same flange on the outside
8) Consider the ability to bore to 3.5" - I believe we can still seal the chambers at that diameter.
9) Consider an aluminum block with steel liners. I would love to be able to make a lighter weight flathead.
10) I think folks like the 59AB pan and water pump setup the best, but maybe there is a way to make the block such that you could bolt on a 59AB 1/2 bell - and run the 59AB style pan. The biggest area to figure out will be the rear main cap (so the pan can seal).

Okay - some off the hip thoughts!
Good list. Bore is restricted/dictated by the exhaust-through-the-jacket original design. I am pondering how to design that area for greatest improvement. All steps required to get a casting need to be considered. It is in my head most of the time now, even as I work on other projects. It will happen, Lord willing.

I also thing increasing coolant capacity as much as possible by kicking out the jacket wall near the valve springs and on the outside wall, and under the deck area. The outside needs to consider the exhaust manifolds in the equation.

Tod
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Old 05-12-2017, 07:46 AM   #101
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Default Re: New block

Tod,
Blueprints may be available from the Benson Ford Research cCnter. I am not sure but others on this forum will know for sure.
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Old 05-12-2017, 07:59 AM   #102
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Default Re: New block

Tod, good luck with your project and thank you for stepping up to the plate to hopefully make this happen. I personally won't need a new block in what's left of my life time, but if we hope to keep future generations interested in the Flathead engine, someone's gonna need to make this happen.
When I rebuilt a '35, 21 stud engine, that had an early failure of a press-on fiber timing gear, I was told it was impossible to replace that gear without first removing the cam. I took this on as a challenge and successfully figured how this could be done and did it. This was nowhere near the challenge you will face, but the same principle applies, nothing is really impossible.
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Old 05-12-2017, 08:54 AM   #103
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There was a guy named "Ray" (user "Flat32") on the "Flathead Ford V8 ... 1932-1953 Forum" who has done a lot of preliminary work on this (cutting up blocks, making cad drawings, etc.). If Tod doesn't already know about him, he probably should. I don't go over there much anymore, and am not really familiar with most of the guys. Are any of you familiar with this guy? He has a steel full-fendered '32 with a fuel injected flathead (I think it's 268") that runs in the twelves, so he's got to know what he's doing. If no one else has better information, I'll try to track him down.

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Old 05-12-2017, 10:58 AM   #104
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6) Improve the intake port and bowl design for better flow. Think about press in bronze guides (like the flathead Cadillac) - instead of the guides we have today. They make a mess of the port floor and have a lot of slop in their fitment.
I'm not super familiar with flathead Cadillac but do they have more conventional smaller outside diameter valve guides?

In my opinion the main reason the Ford flathead had the large diameter guide was for access to machine the lifter bores. Installing the valves as an assembly was an added production bonus in my opinion.

Cadillac simplified the block machining by making the lifter bores removable, if I remember correctly.

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Old 05-12-2017, 01:20 PM   #105
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Cylinder heads are also somewhat of a limiting factor on bore size and some on overall width too if you still want things to look symmetrical utilizing OEM or aftermarket heads. Basically it just has to look good and somewhat original with them on there. If the heads are changed to fit better, the design may lose some of its popularity. That would put it back into a proprietary situation.

Valve bowls & port design have some limitations with the water jacket dimensions but a different way of machining for guides could be a big help in that respect. Some folks may prefer the OEM modular valve arrangement and some may not.

The Big Cad V8 is like a 337 in size. Having the exhaust come out the top simplified the block design but complicated a lot of other things too.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 05-12-2017 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 05-12-2017, 01:46 PM   #106
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Better minds than mine are involved here, but I think having extra metal in the intake port area while casting stock size ports would be good. This way the guy just wanting a stock replacement block is happy, and the Roto Rooter guys can have at it!
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Old 05-12-2017, 01:50 PM   #107
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Not sure how to spell His last name. Roy Federousky, but he's a close friend Of JWl's and has a web site here someplace with dozens of pics of his projects.
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Old 05-12-2017, 02:52 PM   #108
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Cylinder heads are also somewhat of a limiting factor on bore size and some on overall width too if you still want things to look symmetrical utilizing OEM or aftermarket heads. Basically it just has to look good and somewhat original with them on there. If the heads are changed to fit better, the design may lose some of its popularity. That would put it back into a proprietary situation.

Valve bowls & port design have some limitations with the water jacket dimensions but a different way of machining for guides could be a big help in that respect. Some folks may prefer the OEM modular valve arrangement and some may not.

The Big Cad V8 is like a 337 in size. Having the exhaust come out the top simplified the block design but complicated a lot of other things too.
Does anyone make a head that has additional coolant capacity?

Tod
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Old 05-12-2017, 03:45 PM   #109
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A while back there was ,some where I have a pic ,its in one of the Aussie hot up books by I the guy who is making the twin engined streamliner Mike Davidson.
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Old 05-12-2017, 04:57 PM   #110
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Does anyone make a head that has additional coolant capacity?

Tod
Aftermarket types vary in all sorts of ways. Some were made billet style so they had to be two pieces bolted together. Ford's design was more for coolant flow velocity than for capacity. The 8BA design was the culmination of all of there flow control tactics with the longer/larger ports at the rear and smaller ones at the front so that it would force more flow towards the rear of the block, then after passing into the head it had to all come forward to the front mounted outlets to the radiator.

Barney Navarro had an interesting explanation of how some race engines were set up with a small collector soldered to copper tubes that was inserted into the block to funnel some of the water pump flow at the front and force it to go to the back and middle of the block on the engines built prior to the 8BA era. The 8BA design sort of eliminated the need for that.

Its more about the velocity of the flow and how much gets to what location than it is about volume of flow.
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Old 05-12-2017, 05:08 PM   #111
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Does anyone make a head that has additional coolant capacity?

Tod
My Mike Davidson Flatattack 8BA style heads hold a combined six quarts (1-1/2 gallons) more coolant than stock. Think 4-1/4" studs. He's also doing them in an old KONG configuration. Good stuff!
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Old 05-12-2017, 06:19 PM   #112
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Not sure how to spell His last name. Roy Federousky, but he's a close friend Of JWl's and has a web site here someplace with dozens of pics of his projects.
Ron,

Thanks; I think that's the guy. I knew he had a "mittel-europa" type of name, but all I could come up with was Ray Manzaryk, but I think he was a member of the "Doors".

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Old 05-12-2017, 06:45 PM   #113
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Tod another guy u could call would be Dave Tatom in mt. Vernon Washington. if u wanted ideas on how to improve the block without compromising the use of lemon and aftermarket parts that already exist.
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Old 05-12-2017, 07:12 PM   #114
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Impressive abilities.
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Old 05-13-2017, 10:10 AM   #115
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Flow dynamics is a part of engineering that I should have had a better education on instead of playing around with the damn helicopters but it is interesting to touch upon now and then. Ford's engineers had a long time to play with the dynamics of it and their changes ended with the 8BA series. They wanted cool water to flow through there at a rate that wouldn't choke up the radiator or gather too much heat (not too slow and not too fast). The more coolant you have in there, the slower the pumps will be able to move it. It's a balancing act to move coolant through both the engine and the radiator. Flatheads always had large radiators but having two pumps and two separate cooling systems with a common radiator made that a requirement.

A lot of cooling problems were due to too much casting sand and core wire being stuck inside the block after the casting process. They got as much out as their process would allow but some blocks really had it stuck in there. My hand me down 1951 Mercury was purchased by my Pop when it only had about 15K miles on it with no major trips to the shop. One of my uncles did a ring job on it in the late 50s around 1957. I did the next overhaul on it in the 80s. I took the block to a Redi-Strip shop and he put it in his tank. The tank had a screen to catch all the contaminants that came out. He took a large size coffee can full of sand and wire out of there. This motor never once had heating problems that I can recall other than bad water pump and hose replacements. We rodded the radiator in 1973 and it was still clean at overhaul. It runs real cool now.
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Old 05-13-2017, 10:22 AM   #116
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From what I've seen most (if not all) of the cooling issues on flatheads are core sand and wire in the blocks and/or radiator problems. Clean blocks with good water pumps and a good radiator just don't have cooling problems. If anything they run to cool without thermostats!
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Old 05-13-2017, 03:43 PM   #117
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Spent some time with my dad this afternoon tearing down more of the 8BA. Need to get the rest of the valves out so I can pull the cam and oil pump. The one piston is stuck pretty hard but I did not try to get it out yet. The rest of the block looks very solid.

Once I get it torn down enough I will begin some basic measuring to start modeling it and figuring out a casting strategy.

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Old 05-13-2017, 03:55 PM   #118
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Your getting to the typical fun parts. I've had to break up pistons to get them out. Valves are always a chore.
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Old 05-13-2017, 03:57 PM   #119
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Your getting to the typical fun parts. I've had to break up pistons to get them out. Valves are always a chore.
Yeah. I thought I'd just drill and bust the piston. The valves are a pain.

If I want to offer a 21 stud version, will the same basic block do the job?

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Old 05-13-2017, 04:14 PM   #120
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i approve of your effort.
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Old 05-13-2017, 05:02 PM   #121
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Yeah. I thought I'd just drill and bust the piston. The valves are a pain.

Tod
You won't have to drill, they are fragile and will break real easy.

The next thing I do is pry each valve open and prop it open with a 7/16 diameter wood dowel (or just a bolt if no one's watching). Then i turn the engine upside down and tap the lifters up away from the cam. When that's done now the cam will slide out. The lifters will slide out the bottom of the bores when the cam is out, giving you more room to work on the guides.

Then I knock each valve guide down .100 or so with a valve guide driver like this


That makes it possible to get the guide retaining clips out without a lot of drama. When you have the clips out you can either drive the valve assembly up out of the block from the bottom or pry them out with a pickle fork.

Real stuck guides can be a headache. I've cut a few valve heads off with big bolt cutters so I can beat directly on the guide with a large drift. Some of the valve stems can be cut in the valley with bolt cutters, the end valves don't have enough access to reach the stem with the bolt cutters.

Edit - Looked at your photos again, you have the straight stem valves and one piece guides, that will allow you to pull the valves out of the guides and make all that much easier.

Quote:
If I want to offer a 21 stud version, will the same basic block do the job?
I don't know the 8BAs well enough to know all the differences, but I can offer the following -

'37 21 stud blocks look just like 59A blocks on the outside with a few exceptions. 37 and earlier blocks have 4 bulges in the pain rails where core plugs are installed, but that would only matter to a show car restorer.

32 to 36 blocks are very different on the front wall because of the lack of waterpumps in the block. There's just a lot less iron there, especially on the right bank. I can see that difference from 15 feet away when a car has the hood open. That doesn't make it unusable, just visually different and requires block off plates, how important that is is a personal matter to the owner.

8BAs have a different intake bolt pattern, with fewer bolts, but I think the same casting would work.

The bottom row of the 21 stud pattern limits the bore dia to about 3.188, maybe a little more. I understand the 24 stud change was made to allow the bores to be enlarged to accept sleeves in '38.
If I was to try to build a big bore 21 stud as a one off I'd ask you to move the bottom row of holes .125 or so then either try to get a set of Sharp heads made with the holes offset or plug and redrill a set of heads myself. But that would be a PITA for production parts, and require dealing with 2 suppliers. Maybe you're interested in making V8 heads too? A 24 stud waterpump head would make that all easier



Questions for the forum - 8BAs have different flywheels, they are much deeper than the pre 49 flywheels. Can you put a pre 49 flywheel on an 8BA crank and use a pre 49 starter?

What oil pan would you put on an 8BA block to put in a pre war car like my 36PU? What clearance problems would arise from that? What oil pump would you use?

What bellhousings are available to do this swap and make the engine and trans line up same as original, and will the front motor mounts work?

Will the 35-up breathers work on an 8BA, the scoop on the fuel pump stand and the breather in the front of the oil pan? I wouldn't want to put an 8BA draft tube in my intake manifold.
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Old 05-13-2017, 05:15 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by tubman View Post
There was a guy named "Ray" (user "Flat32") on the "Flathead Ford V8 ... 1932-1953 Forum" who has done a lot of preliminary work on this (cutting up blocks, making cad drawings, etc.). If Tod doesn't already know about him, he probably should. I don't go over there much anymore, and am not really familiar with most of the guys. Are any of you familiar with this guy? He has a steel full-fendered '32 with a fuel injected flathead (I think it's 268") that runs in the twelves, so he's got to know what he's doing. If no one else has better information, I'll try to track him down.
He's here on the barn as Flat32 also. I asked him to sell me a set of his neat aluminum heads, but he said he couldn't find a foundry he could work with.
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Old 05-13-2017, 06:03 PM   #123
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He's here on the barn as Flat32 also. I asked him to sell me a set of his neat aluminum heads, but he said he couldn't find a foundry he could work with.
That's why I'm in the process of setting up my own foundry again.

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Old 05-13-2017, 06:03 PM   #124
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You won't have to drill, they are fragile and will break real easy.

The next thing I do is pry each valve open and prop it open with a 7/16 diameter wood dowel (or just a bolt if no one's watching). Then i turn the engine upside down and tap the lifters up away from the cam. When that's done now the cam will slide out. The lifters will slide out the bottom of the bores when the cam is out, giving you more room to work on the guides.

Then I knock each valve guide down .100 or so with a valve guide driver like this


That makes it possible to get the guide retaining clips out without a lot of drama. When you have the clips out you can either drive the valve assembly up out of the block from the bottom or pry them out with a pickle fork.

Real stuck guides can be a headache. I've cut a few valve heads off with big bolt cutters so I can beat directly on the guide with a large drift. Some of the valve stems can be cut in the valley with bolt cutters, the end valves don't have enough access to reach the stem with the bolt cutters.

Edit - Looked at your photos again, you have the straight stem valves and one piece guides, that will allow you to pull the valves out of the guides and make all that much easier.

I don't know the 8BAs well enough to know all the differences, but I can offer the following -

'37 21 stud blocks look just like 59A blocks on the outside with a few exceptions. 37 and earlier blocks have 4 bulges in the pain rails where core plugs are installed, but that would only matter to a show car restorer.

32 to 36 blocks are very different on the front wall because of the lack of waterpumps in the block. There's just a lot less iron there, especially on the right bank. I can see that difference from 15 feet away when a car has the hood open. That doesn't make it unusable, just visually different and requires block off plates, how important that is is a personal matter to the owner.

8BAs have a different intake bolt pattern, with fewer bolts, but I think the same casting would work.

The bottom row of the 21 stud pattern limits the bore dia to about 3.188, maybe a little more. I understand the 24 stud change was made to allow the bores to be enlarged to accept sleeves in '38.
If I was to try to build a big bore 21 stud as a one off I'd ask you to move the bottom row of holes .125 or so then either try to get a set of Sharp heads made with the holes offset or plug and redrill a set of heads myself. But that would be a PITA for production parts, and require dealing with 2 suppliers. Maybe you're interested in making V8 heads too? A 24 stud waterpump head would make that all easier



Questions for the forum - 8BAs have different flywheels, they are much deeper than the pre 49 flywheels. Can you put a pre 49 flywheel on an 8BA crank and use a pre 49 starter?

What oil pan would you put on an 8BA block to put in a pre war car like my 36PU? What clearance problems would arise from that? What oil pump would you use?

What bellhousings are available to do this swap and make the engine and trans line up same as original, and will the front motor mounts work?

Will the 35-up breathers work on an 8BA, the scoop on the fuel pump stand and the breather in the front of the oil pan? I wouldn't want to put an 8BA draft tube in my intake manifold.
Lots to digest.

Tod
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Old 05-13-2017, 06:46 PM   #125
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Default Re: New block

Tod
Yes the 24 stud block is a derived from the 21 stud block because of it increase in bore size. the stud at the center of the lower cylinder bore was too close to the bore. so it was re moved and 2 studs were installed. If you put a 21 stud head on the 24 stud block most of the bolts/studs will fit.
All you have to d is make provisions for this stud. Then users can drill and tap it.Problem solved. Several years ago I cutup a block and looked inside, very interesting. I have a junk block you can have, for just this purpose. So does most people.
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Old 05-13-2017, 07:11 PM   #126
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Tod
Yes the 24 stud block is a derived from the 21 stud block because of it increase in bore size. the stud at the center of the lower cylinder bore was too close to the bore. so it was re moved and 2 studs were installed. If you put a 21 stud head on the 24 stud block most of the bolts/studs will fit.
All you have to d is make provisions for this stud. Then users can drill and tap it.Problem solved. Several years ago I cutup a block and looked inside, very interesting. I have a junk block you can have, for just this purpose. So does most people.
I'd like to get my hands on a junk 21 stud block. My idea is to make a 21 stud block with most of the same model and make changes as needed. I can't go into all the details of how I will do all of this because most of it is specialized to tooling guys and maybe a vey good foundry man. I have basically designed this while trying to sleep since I decided to do it. If the same basic deck height, crank/cam locations, valve locations and exhaust ports are close, or the same, I can do both blocks very easily. If the rear will suffice as an 8BA style that would be better.

Tod
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Old 05-13-2017, 07:17 PM   #127
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There were several tools made that really speed up the process of removing crusty valves. KD made a good one to pull the valves but it is easier if you have a good tool to yank the horse shoe clip out with. The puller will then just pull the valve assembly right out. I use the All Power tools to do most of them but I still have to use the KD tool on some. All Power made an excellent clip puller and a wedge tool that forced the valve up by whacking at the wedge with a slide hammer. There are other tools available that work too but those are the best I've found so far.

On 21 stud differences:
If a person sticks to the later 37/38 21 stud design, it is very close to the 24 stud that followed. The early ones had bolts that went through the tappet galley on through the main cap to bolt them main caps on with nuts on the bottom side and there were different size main bearings on some. I think an 8BA type would work for some since it can be adapted with the Mercury and truck half bells but you have to use the Mercury or truck type oil pan too. Others still might want the early block type with the integral half bell on the back and use the early type vented oil pans to make them look more authentic.

I'm fortunate that I don't have to make those decisions. They aren't easy to make.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 05-13-2017 at 07:26 PM.
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Old 05-13-2017, 07:30 PM   #128
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Default Re: New block

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I'd like to get my hands on a junk 21 stud block. My idea is to make a 21 stud block with most of the same model and make changes as needed. I can't go into all the details of how I will do all of this because most of it is specialized to tooling guys and maybe a vey good foundry man. I have basically designed this while trying to sleep since I decided to do it. If the same basic deck height, crank/cam locations, valve locations and exhaust ports are close, or the same, I can do both blocks very easily. If the rear will suffice as an 8BA style that would be better.

Tod
Tod..........Some basic (yet critical) dimensions you need to be aware of. Click the thread below. Bored & Stroked has lengthy details in POST #32, as a place to start. DD

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...lve+centerline
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Old 05-13-2017, 10:08 PM   #129
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Here's a good thread full of block ID photos.

https://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25301
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Old 05-14-2017, 06:40 AM   #130
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Great info I'm getting here. Contacted by flat32 with offer to help. This will surely happen.

Tod
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Old 05-14-2017, 07:45 AM   #131
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Great info I'm getting here. Contacted by flat32 with offer to help. This will surely happen.

Tod
That is good to hear.
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Old 05-14-2017, 07:50 AM   #132
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Great info I'm getting here. Contacted by flat32 with offer to help. This will surely happen.

Tod
Hey Tod - if Ray is willing to help you, then you've found the guy that has done more with 3D modeling of the flathead block than probably anybody else. He would be by far the best resource you could find when it comes to understanding the current design of the block and the geometry it takes to represent it in 3D.

If these two guys work together - now THAT would be awesome! I'm willing to help with any performance ideas/enhancements that you're willing to consider. I believe a lot of improvements could be made - some major, some minor (but convenient) and some that would be for the high-performance market only.

Let's ALL do this!

D
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Old 05-14-2017, 07:55 AM   #133
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Tod,
I'm not very familiar with the early blocks but the later ones always seemed to crack between the water jacket opening and the threaded stud/bolt hole. It has been quite a while but it seems the opening was a triangle shape and very close to the threaded hole. Seems that a round or drilled water jacket hole could prevent this.
Mike.
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Old 05-14-2017, 07:59 AM   #134
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It's really neat to see a racer doing this, aiming to make a superior part, not just a serviceable replacement.

Price check dept - There are 3 French blocks on ebay ATM for $3100.00 each from SoCal Speed shop.
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Old 05-14-2017, 08:04 AM   #135
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I have been away from flatheads for years and do not remember if the French blocks were stronger or they were just available NOS blocks.
Mike.
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Old 05-14-2017, 08:26 AM   #136
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It's really neat to see a racer doing this, aiming to make a superior part, not just a serviceable replacement.

Price check dept - There are 3 French blocks on ebay ATM for $3100.00 each from SoCal Speed shop.
Link?

Tod
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Old 05-14-2017, 08:39 AM   #137
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Default Re: New block

Here is the E-Pay Linc.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAND-NEW-ST...mIaiyg&vxp=mtr

The stage 1 is with the governor pad removed but no major porting done. These were the ones imported in mass as surplus through a guy in Houston. San Fransisco Flatheads, SoCal Speed Shop SF NorCal, and Vern Tardel all got into that stash but it won't last. It's a limited supply by now.

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Old 05-14-2017, 12:08 PM   #138
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Too much talking, too little casting......
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Old 05-14-2017, 12:37 PM   #139
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My mistake - the Ebay blocks are $3199.99

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Old 05-14-2017, 01:48 PM   #140
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Wow has this turned around... for the better.

Tod check out this thread;
https://fordbarn.com/forum/showthrea...6253&showall=1

Looks like he has been working up a 3D drawing of the 59a.
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Old 05-14-2017, 03:57 PM   #141
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Wow has this turned around... for the better.

Tod check out this thread;
https://fordbarn.com/forum/showthrea...6253&showall=1

Looks like he has been working up a 3D drawing of the 59a.
I'm not sure that helps me. Looks like quite a while back.

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Old 05-14-2017, 04:28 PM   #142
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I'm not sure that helps me. Looks like quite a while back.

Tod
Rays block model is complete. hopefully you can use what he has for pattern and core work. would save a lot of time.
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Old 05-14-2017, 04:38 PM   #143
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Rays block model is complete. hopefully you can use what he has for pattern and core work. would save a lot of time.
We're working on that right now. If I can get it yet today I will be able to go over it tomorrow and see if I can use it.

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Old 05-14-2017, 04:42 PM   #144
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We're working on that right now. If I can get it yet today I will be able to go over it tomorrow and see if I can use it.

Tod
Ill keep my fingers crossed. keep us posted...
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Old 05-14-2017, 04:45 PM   #145
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Rays block model is complete. hopefully you can use what he has for pattern and core work. would save a lot of time.
Be CAREFUL here, guys! If I remember correctly, he created drawings from pictures that he solicited. If so, that accomplishes nothing! Quite the accomplishment, for sure, but not the way to "reverse-engineer" a new block. That's kind'a how the Ruskies built our B-29, bullet holes and all. DD
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Old 05-14-2017, 04:48 PM   #146
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Be CAREFUL here, guys! If I remember correctly, he created drawings from pictures that he solicited. If so, that accomplishes nothing! Quite the accomplishment, for sure, but not the way to "reverse-engineer" a new block. That's kind'a how the Ruskies built our B-29. DD
From what I have seen it appears to be fairly accurate. Seems to be some mods in the intake and exhaust passages. Only Ray will know for sure.
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Old 05-14-2017, 05:01 PM   #147
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From what I have seen it appears to be fairly accurate. Seems to be some mods in the intake and exhaust passages. Only Ray will know for sure.
Once I have it I can double check it against my block and see how everything looks.

There will still be a lot of work to do even with a good model.

Tod
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Old 05-14-2017, 07:31 PM   #148
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I'm not sure that helps me. Looks like quite a while back.

Tod
That link does not show flat32's work. That was part of flysafe's early work in Portugal, which he has suspended. He and I were communicating on that one for purely a rough model. Nothing compared to flat32's accuracy.Totally different purpose in mind.
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Old 05-14-2017, 07:36 PM   #149
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That link does not show flat32's work. That was part of flysafe's early work in Portugal, which he has suspended. He and I were communicating on that one for purely a rough model. Nothing compared to flat32's accuracy.Totally different purpose in mind.
I have Ray's model but it is in STL format which is not something I can work with to do what I need to do. I either need an actual solid model from Solidworks or an iges file. We'll get there or I will just have to model it myself. No big deal.

How do I get signed up to that flathead forum you are on Russ? The one that asks what year they quit making V8s in Canada? No matter what I answer I can't get in. Figure there may be some in there that would be interested.

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Old 05-14-2017, 09:24 PM   #150
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If you convert the STL file will it be accurate enough for you? I can read STL files and save them as a single SW or IGES solid. Or STEP. Can read other file types as well, if you have it in another format.

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Old 05-14-2017, 09:37 PM   #151
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If you convert the STL file will it be accurate enough for you? I can read STL files and save them as a single SW or IGES solid. Or STEP. Can read other file types as well, if you have it in another format.
What program are you using to do this??
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Old 05-14-2017, 09:46 PM   #152
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Solid Edge.
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Old 05-14-2017, 10:23 PM   #153
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I know the blue prints are available From Ford, because several people here have them. Just check with Ford, they were very helpful when I was there back in the late 80's.
You know, trying to plese everybody with all the variations of this block, might lead to no block at all. Besides, it won't be an original anyway. I wish you well.
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Old 05-15-2017, 12:28 PM   #154
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I agree with Ron on this. I won't discount any person's abilities to do this but that's not the issue here. I would settle for what ever is produced regardless of my own wants and needs. Better one type than none at all. This is a monumental challenge and one that would put the flathead back on the map.

Production hasn't been successfully done since 1991.

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Old 05-15-2017, 01:07 PM   #155
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Just a reminder of core complexity.
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Old 05-15-2017, 01:11 PM   #156
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That's an interesting picture!
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Old 05-15-2017, 01:21 PM   #157
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Whats really amazing is that Henry got it done 85 years ago
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Old 05-15-2017, 01:40 PM   #158
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You might want to talk to John Lawson, he wrote the book "Flathead facts" probably knows more about these blocks than all the rest of us put together.
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Old 05-15-2017, 01:57 PM   #159
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Things are under way. Thanks to Ray for the model he sent over. I'm not sure how much I can/will use but it is there for reference if nothing else. After getting some other stuff finished up I will be moving on this. Be nice to have a casting by the end of the year.

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Old 05-15-2017, 01:59 PM   #160
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Just a reminder of core complexity.
No wonder there is so much sand and wire hiding in our blocks. I agree, that's a very interesting photo.
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Old 05-15-2017, 02:20 PM   #161
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Found a slightly bigger, better res version of that image:
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Old 05-16-2017, 12:10 AM   #162
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No help at all from me. Just want to say this is the most interesting thread I've read in a long time! I wish you well in this endeavor Tod.
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Old 05-16-2017, 03:25 PM   #163
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No help at all from me. Just want to say this is the most interesting thread I've read in a long time! I wish you well in this endeavor Tod.
Thanks. I hope to get it going soon.

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Old 05-16-2017, 05:16 PM   #164
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I was able to look over Ray's model and have decided that I will be making a model from scratch myself. There are a lot of surfaces that I don't need and many that did not translate over to my Surfcam so I will need to do far too much work editing and trying to see through everything to get what I can possibly use. It will be better and easier to start back where I left off. Many thanks to Ray for his trying to help me. His model is really nice. But to do what I am planning I need to have it done a certain way.

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Old 05-16-2017, 05:22 PM   #165
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Tod, You must be a patient, determined, detail-oriented man! Thanks for the regular up-dates!
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Old 05-17-2017, 07:11 AM   #166
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Here's a modification that might solve the 21 stud issue. If the deck thickness is increased to 1/2" along the bottom of the block, then you can drill the 4 holes needed for the 21 stud head. Unfortunately you'd still have to use block off plates on the front for the early block replacement. But it does solve one issue.
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Old 05-17-2017, 05:11 PM   #167
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Here's a modification that might solve the 21 stud issue. If the deck thickness is increased to 1/2" along the bottom of the block, then you can drill the 4 holes needed for the 21 stud head. Unfortunately you'd still have to use block off plates on the front for the early block replacement. But it does solve one issue.

My plan is to make different cores for the front to make either version. There will be options for different water jackets also. That will allow me to make either block.

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Old 05-17-2017, 08:50 PM   #168
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I wish you well, I have a new intake port i'd like to share with you, but that migh e just too uch.
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Old 05-18-2017, 05:37 AM   #169
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I wish you well, I have a new intake port i'd like to share with you, but that migh e just too uch.
You can email me.

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Old 05-18-2017, 05:43 AM   #170
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One thing that I haven't seen offered up yet as an improvement is priority pressurized oiling to the crank journals. One person somewhere suggested an oil galley through the lifter bores. My block is being dipped right now and I haven't had time to go over the oiling system.

Is full pressure, filtered oiling, good with everyone?

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Old 05-18-2017, 06:35 AM   #171
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Yes please!
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Old 05-18-2017, 08:56 AM   #172
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Might be nice to have inlet and outlet fittings for the filter down near the pan rail or somewhere out of the way like that, if that's easy to do, it would eliminate hoses draped over the bellhousing.
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Old 05-18-2017, 12:57 PM   #173
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Ford had a very odd oiling system for the 85/95/100 HP V8 engines but it wasn't all that out of place during that era. Where the oil pump pressure port interface is up in the bottom of the block, there is a little oil cavity with one feed port going up to the main feed galley and one going down to the rear main. This is why many folks mention 95% oiling due to that passage to the main since it is the only feed going down there and on to the rear rod crank pin. The rear cam journal is sort of oiled by the cavity that houses the oil pump idler gear.

Ford had oiling for the big Lincoln 337 tappets but the passenger car version had hydraulic lifters so it needed pressure to each unit. I guess Ford's engineers didn't feel that lubrication for the large diameter hollow tappets was all that necessary since there was plenty of windage off the crank and the tappet bores are relatively shallow.

Most 100% filtration set ups out there plug the normal oil pump port then add a new port on the pump body that exits the oil pan to get piped to the filter. The pressure then exits the filter and is piped back to the gallery on the back of the block so it will still oil all the necessary items.

100% filtration could be taken into account and resto guys could modify the existing filtration components to work for it so it would "look original". The Rodder guys could use what ever filtration set up they wanted to plumb in there.

Even Small block Chevy engines used the partial main bearing bypass system so It's not uncommon to keep it that way but the person doing the alteration for partial bypass has to open a new port at the back of the block then plug the port between the oil pump flow passage and the main feed passage to the galley tube. This was what was done during the war in order to install an oil cooler system since a lot of these motors were installed in personnel carriers and armored cars. The 59 series blocks still have the little unopened pad or boss back there where the port was opened up to the oil pump feed passage.

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Old 05-18-2017, 04:36 PM   #174
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I'll see what I can do about the oiling, but if I make a galley through the lifter bores it only helps if the lifters used are able to allow oil flow all the way through. I don't think stock lifters allow that, do they? I may have to make a galley so that when the lifter bores are cut it cuts into the galley some, allowing oil to pass along the side of the lifter. Kind of like the Clevelands were.

Not sure yet how I will do all three mains. The cam journals can be oiled from the top. A boss above each journal is drilled down through a top/center galley and then plugged with a 1/8 NPT plug.

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Old 05-18-2017, 06:23 PM   #175
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I'll see what I can do about the oiling, but if I make a galley through the lifter bores it only helps if the lifters used are able to allow oil flow all the way through. I don't think stock lifters allow that, do they? I may have to make a galley so that when the lifter bores are cut it cuts into the galley some, allowing oil to pass along the side of the lifter. Kind of like the Clevelands were.

Not sure yet how I will do all three mains. The cam journals can be oiled from the top. A boss above each journal is drilled down through a top/center galley and then plugged with a 1/8 NPT plug.

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I think I have main journal oiling figured out!!! I will know for sure as my new model takes shape. I started on it today and the front is pretty far along.

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Old 05-18-2017, 06:34 PM   #176
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There are all sorts of cam followers out there. OEM were hollow non adjustable types. The Johnson adjustables were aftermarket and some are hollow and some are not. There have been every sort of tappet tried by hot rodders. From the mushroom type to the locked roller types. Most all survived without further oiling but some created a lot of wear to the bores.
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:43 PM   #177
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Tod oil the mains first then continue up to the cam a reversal from stock. I do this on my race engines. Using the side oiler idea could get this accomplished but is it a lot of extra work for a very good improvement?
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:55 PM   #178
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I agree with hotcoupe. I personally like the 46-48 have a couple myself. I buy up anything 59A-B I can find

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Old 05-18-2017, 10:30 PM   #179
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Tod, I am aware of your 351C block. Didn't know you were involved with the Genesis and Pond FE blocks. Those are all excellent pieces and I applaud your talented effort.

My thoughts are get the bore size and air flow characteristics better then build a stronger block around those parameters.

Flathead intake ports do not flow well due to the lack of a good short side radius. A gently curved intake port that maintains the stock inlet location would do wonders. Eliminating the removable guide and making the ramp up to the backside of the intake valve real nice and smooth would really provide a performance kick in the pants.

Bigger bores helps everything and I don't see any reason not to take advantage of that free power. I'm talking 3 3/8" as a starting point. Maybe all the way to 3 1/2" is possible?

The end exhaust ports in the French blocks are good. The exhaust valve pockets could be curved towards the port to help even further.

In the center just fill that in curve the port walls to direct airflow down and out and do the best you can with that. No heat riser is needed. We can drill if necessary.

A few other thoughts: extra material around cam tunnel to provide for larger cam diameters in race engines if one chooses that.

Original bell pattern along with the SBF pattern to facilitate easy trans updates. (Probably the single best performance Mod you can do for and early Ford)


Remember with a Flathead Ford with performance improvements for $2500 is a bargain. After all your getting the equivalent of good block and heads as in a souped up OHV.
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:47 PM   #180
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I don't think adding oil to the lifter bores is a practical idea, and will offer nothing to the reliability or performance to the engine. Considering the fact that under stock conditions lifter bore ware in negligible. In a competition engine the side clearance of the rod bearings is increased to provide more oil flow to keep the bearing cool. This added oil is more than enough to lubricate the cam and cylinders. If you want to make performance improvements to the block, they can b e done by just increasing the material in the cylinders to allow a 3 3/8 bore size. now a person can buy one non stock item that will produce aprox a 40% gain in low end torque. It will bring the CR up to 8:1 with stock heads and the stock cam and valves will supply enough AF for reasonable economical operation. For the racer or someone that want;s alittle more power the water jackets between the intake ports can be eliminated, often wounded why they were ther in the first place. This alone will allow the port to be improved allowing more flow. As for the exhaust the end ports exit into a 90 deg turn. Just put a radius here. we can do the rest. All thes mods have no affect on the stock use of the block, but now we have one block that can have 21 or 24 studs on it. an increse in displacement at a low cost and the need for expensive crank assys can be left to the racers. I have a 280ci Stock engine that provides mor torque than you'll ever need in normal operation. I'm sure some others could add to this. At 84. I doubt I;ll ever see one. I wish you well.
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Old 05-19-2017, 07:27 AM   #181
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What Henry said!
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Old 05-20-2017, 07:15 AM   #182
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Tod, I have one comment and then a question.

So the comment which is actually quite obvious when looking at the Flathead bottom end. Basically logic tells me that the center main is carrying more than it's fair share of the load. After all it is influenced by both the front four and the back four cylinders.

It is my understanding that the old NOVI V8's of Indianapolis fame were 3 main bearing engines. Extra effort went into keeping that center bearing in place, round and cool.

If a performance Flathead needs any oiling modification at all I would be looking at extra oil to that center main to keep it cool.

The next part is more of a question pertaining to the type of block material you'll be designing for. I'm assuming this is a cast iron project. That would be best for the vast majority of consumers I would think.

It's only if you decide to foray into the aluminum world that I wonder if you might consider using PTWA to form the cylinder walls with the greatest possible bore diameter?

It is my understanding that PTWA is becoming commonplace both in original manufacturing and also "re"- manufacturing.

Just a thought I guess thinking out into the future should an aluminum block become a feasible project.
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Old 05-20-2017, 07:53 AM   #183
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I prefer the 59 type block but if you go with the 8BA type, there needs to be some provision for the stabilizer rods on each side for 48 and back vehicles.
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Old 05-20-2017, 08:30 AM   #184
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All the blocks have the same basic profile at the rear with the exception of the half bell on earlier engines. Even the 8BA block has enough casting there but it's just not drilled for the rods. Keep in mind that the anti-chatter rods are a pre-war thing and weren't incorporated into the 59A block either but can be installed if needed. I probably should say that the provisions weren't incorporated into the vehicle frames since the block does have the bosses there.

Some of the 4-cylinder aircraft engines I maintain and overhaul have only 3-mains. The center main takes a beating but holds up pretty well as long as the engine is always assembled to new tolerances. These are 360 CID engines and they have an aluminum crankcase cast in halves. All the main bearings are pinned on these and the center pin is usually loose by the time they are due overhaul.

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Old 05-20-2017, 08:49 AM   #185
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Tod, I have one comment and then a question.

So the comment which is actually quite obvious when looking at the Flathead bottom end. Basically logic tells me that the center main is carrying more than it's fair share of the load. After all it is influenced by both the front four and the back four cylinders.

It is my understanding that the old NOVI V8's of Indianapolis fame were 3 main bearing engines. Extra effort went into keeping that center bearing in place, round and cool.

If a performance Flathead needs any oiling modification at all I would be looking at extra oil to that center main to keep it cool.

The next part is more of a question pertaining to the type of block material you'll be designing for. I'm assuming this is a cast iron project. That would be best for the vast majority of consumers I would think.

It's only if you decide to foray into the aluminum world that I wonder if you might consider using PTWA to form the cylinder walls with the greatest possible bore diameter?

It is my understanding that PTWA is becoming commonplace both in original manufacturing and also "re"- manufacturing.

Just a thought I guess thinking out into the future should an aluminum block become a feasible project.
Right now I am designing with iron in mind, of the same class as my Cleveland blocks and new Model A blocks. I was already planning full pressure oil to all 3 mains, as well as the cam journals and a smattering to the lifters.

I am thinking hard about design changes I want to make on the intake ports and the exhaust as I try to increase bore allowance.

in order to make better flow in the ports right under the valves, I was thinking of how I can eliminate the 1.031 valve guide and make the hole for smaller guides, which allows me to open up the port and change the geometry some. But, I need to think ahead to how I will machine the lifter bores. I may need to design a special tool to get that done, something I have had to do on other machining jobs.

It was asked that I increase cam tunnel size but no actual size was suggested. The stock radius is 1.10 where the lifter bores cut through. I'm wondering if an additional .09 would suffice. I would then add that .09 to the top side of the lifter bosses to keep the same length of lifter bore.

As I get deeper into my design I'm sure I will be posting about where I am and what input I can get back. I will probably show pictures of various areas so that people have an idea what I am talking about.

As it stands, I have the front pretty much modeled up and the crankcase, rear, decks, and cylinders. I will not do much with the top until I get the ports figured out.


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Old 05-20-2017, 09:10 AM   #186
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For the tappet bores, I'd imagine you would need a cutting head that could be fastened to a through shaft. It's doable but it might be tricky to get the finish bore. Might take several different tool heads for that operation.
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Old 05-20-2017, 09:28 AM   #187
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I prefer the 59 type block but if you go with the 8BA type, there needs to be some provision for the stabilizer rods on each side for 48 and back vehicles.
It may be that I'm wrong. I always believed that chatter rods were just a band-aid to cover the fact that Ford did not have a decent rear main seal.
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Old 05-20-2017, 10:17 AM   #188
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The rods are just stabilizers to keep the whole drive train from moving around under rapid torque loads. That closed drive rear axle will push the whole engine around if the mounts get worn or deteriorated.
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Old 05-20-2017, 11:18 AM   #189
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Other places I have posted this project seem inclined to the opinion that this is a huge waste of time. If I can't sell a few hundred there is no sense in doing it.

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Old 05-20-2017, 11:23 AM   #190
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If you can offer blocks in the price range you are thinking, there should be no problem with sells!
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Old 05-20-2017, 11:29 AM   #191
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Other places I have posted this project seem inclined to the opinion that this is a huge waste of time. If I can't sell a few hundred there is no sense in doing it.

Tod
Tod, there is no other engine that as under served as the Flathead Ford. Many more people would use a Flatty if some of the quirks (i.e. Cracks and sealing problems) could be solved.

A new block will fill a huge void in my opinion. I'll be buying one too.
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Old 05-20-2017, 04:56 PM   #192
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Tod
Some folks may have a large stash of old blocks and may never need one in their lifetime. Then there are the other folks that have to scour the country for a crusty old boat anchor to find it cracked after they tear it down. I certainly don't think it's a waist of time.

We haven't had a person as serious about a project like this as you are and you have more where-with-all than any previous folks to actually accomplish it. It has been disappointing to see several outfits attempt this in the past 10 or 15 years with no real results yet.

I don't know if any racers would be interested since antique racing has rules about whether its OEM or not. Folks that do love the old flat motors like me would be interested. I like my stockers but I also like my hot rods. I'd rather bang a new one around than flog the hell out of an OEM one. Besides, I still have a set NOS standard size pistons that I may never get to use unless I completely sleeve an old block out. That stuff is getting expensive too. I probably would have purchased a French block if the damn things weren't all relieved!

There will always be nay sayers out there but you be the one that actually knows whether it's worth it or not.
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Old 05-20-2017, 05:01 PM   #193
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I would like a new 21 stud, 36 LB pattern engine.
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Old 05-20-2017, 05:06 PM   #194
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Other places I have posted this project seem inclined to the opinion that this is a huge waste of time. If I can't sell a few hundred there is no sense in doing it.

Tod
Where else are you posting? I find the internet negativity wearing.

My personal opinion is that a flathead block has a larger market than a 351C block, but that's just my perspective because racing seems to use windsor style blocks and cranks.
Your first post of calling it an 8BA put me off a bit, because the hot rod world seems to revolve around 59A blocks, but I understand what you are doing better now.

What is your timeline for a few hundred sold? I think you could sell a couple hundred 36LB replacements alone.
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Old 05-20-2017, 05:12 PM   #195
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Tod
Some folks may have a large stash of old blocks and may never need one in their lifetime.
That's an issue, and that may be a distorted picture. I bought 3 of those stashed blocks, 2 in complete "known good, running when pulled" condition, and one in "known to be good, stashed under the workbench 20 years ago, bored and honed but never used" condition. When cleaned and inspected as thoroughly as a modern build requires, all 3 were junk and beyond repair.
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Old 05-20-2017, 05:19 PM   #196
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Great thread. Tod; amazing desire and work, sir.
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Old 05-20-2017, 06:02 PM   #197
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Yoyodyne
I have two usable 8BA blocks and one that's cracked but repairable. Both usable ones will need bore jobs with substantial cuts in both so I know what your stating there. It's always a big ??? as to whether I'd get a good one or all are useless.

I've built several engines with what they call acceptable cracks in the center bolt bore of the deck and so far gotten away with it but it sure would be nice to be able to get one that is Friggin NEW! I wouldn't know how to act with no cracks, major cleaning, or major machine work to deal with. That's almost a wet dream!
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Old 05-20-2017, 06:03 PM   #198
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Where else are you posting? I find the internet negativity wearing.

My personal opinion is that a flathead block has a larger market than a 351C block, but that's just my perspective because racing seems to use windsor style blocks and cranks.
Your first post of calling it an 8BA put me off a bit, because the hot rod world seems to revolve around 59A blocks, but I understand what you are doing better now.

What is your timeline for a few hundred sold? I think you could sell a couple hundred 36LB replacements alone.
I posted on the Facebook Flat Spot page, Ford Flathead 1932-1953 forum, and here.

What is the major difference between the 8BA and 36LB?

I'd like to sell as many as possible, obviously, and I have no real time frame. 5 years?

Once I have the basic design I can alter it to do what will sell.


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Old 05-20-2017, 06:19 PM   #199
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Default Re: New block

The The LB block was the first major departure from the first generation. There are no ports for water pumps in the block. There are just ports for inlet where the engine mounts bolt on and form the inlet stub as part of the mount. The crank journals were set up to be replaceable. They made the first venting for the block at the oil pan rail. There is a lot of difference from 59 series and 8BA. These are desired for restorers of 35 and 36 cars or even earlier since they were the last pump in head block. One other thing to add. The mains were changed in 1935 so as not to have the bolt that went all the way through from the valve chamber.

You might scope out this thread since it has photos. It's the Official Ford Barn ID thread.
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...5301&showall=1

Last edited by rotorwrench; 05-20-2017 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 05-20-2017, 10:30 PM   #200
Ol' Ron
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Default Re: New block

AS for the lifter bores. Normally, we use Chevy valves when using a cam with more than .350 Lift. This is because you can't get the Johnson extra long lifters. The longer valve stem keeps the adjusting screw tight in the lifter. However, The smaller bass circle put's the lifter down in the bore so it 's difficult to adjust. So we cut the top of the lifter down a bit. as for the cam bearings. Yes alittle more meat in this area will allow it to be bored out for a larger dia cam bearing. This allows for a higher lift valve with out reducing the Base circle. I covered some of this in my book.
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Old 05-21-2017, 08:43 AM   #201
Bored&Stroked
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Default Re: New block

Couple More Options, Ideas to Consider:

1) Making a 21 stud version would be the most valuable if the outside of the block really looked like an original - so that somebody taking a pretty serious look at it in a car could not tell the difference. As others noted - this demands that the front of the block have the necessary configuration that a "pump in head" 21 stud would have. (Lots of little nuances here).

2) The internals of the 21 Stud could mimic the 24 stud - such that you could run a 24 stud crankshaft, rods, bearings, etc. - in it. I would deliberately setup the mains to support the later cranks - due to bearing availability.

3) Bores: You would want the 21 stud bores to be at a minimum 3 3/16 inch - such that the later 29A through 8BA rods would fit through the bores.

4) Oil Pan: I have not looked enough at the pan rails to compare 21 stud to 59A to 8BA. I will give this a closer look - but you may have to have some provisions to support different pans and breather setups. A 59x pan does look different than a 32 - 36 pan and the breather systems vary quite a bit.

====================== Back to General Ideas ================

A) Simple is Better for Most: Most folks will want to easily be able to buy/machine/setup a block using all their components. This give them maximum flexibility for both stock and performance applications.

B) Design Improvements - Strength and Material Thicknesses: While the above is true, nobody is going to be hurt by better strength in key areas, more material/thicknesses in weak spots, better ports/flow, etc.. So - the key is for the design(s) to support both --- giving us all the BEST of all worlds. (I know, this is the most difficult engineering/design challenge - the more options, the more complex, the more costly to produce).

C) Oiling the Lifters: I've seen some talk about pressurized lifter galleys. While I'd love this as "a configurable option" - it may present some real problems for most (if done with one big long galley like many OHV designs). The reason is that the stock lifters and many performance variants are NOT designed for a pressure galley - so many lifter designs will leak pressure (through the lifter). If there was a plug/port to drill out to turn this capability on/off, then the builder of the engine could decide how/when to use it. I would use it for many race situations where I have high lift - and or a lot of 'side load' on the lifter bore (think big roller cam). Tod - be happy to talk about this more, show you a whole range of lifter designs, etc..

D) Priority Main Oiling - 100% filtered: Yes - this would certainly make sense, but would probably require an oil galley down the side of the block - or external lines . . . could be done, but might be a pain. We use external priority main oiling on our Flathead Cadillac Bonneville engine - which has a long galley cast into the side of the block. I do think it is important for the design to include a 100% filtered oil setup - but one that uses the stock 49-53 pump in the stock location . . . as this is what MOST people will run. These blocks will not be approved for Bonneville racing - so there will probably be almost nobody who cares about dry-sump setups.

E) Different Oil Pump? - Another idea/option to ponder - is to see if it is possible to redesign the rear main cap to support a SBC style pump - with a 'drive shaft setup' coming from the stock location. Now - this might be total overkill, but I'd sure like to be able to use better quality pumps than we seem to be getting for flatheads these days. (I know - this idea is probably a bit too wild and expensive for most!)

F) Intake Ports: There has been a lot of chat about better flowing ports with solid/press-in guides (like the Flathead Cadillac). I think a LOT of improvements could be made here - as long as you solve the bigger issue of how to bore the lifter holes - obviously this is the big pain in the butt portion of the problem. I'd love to see a much better designed intake port, bowl and guide setup - that would be worth the money in itself (for us performance hounds).

G) Exhaust Ports: Yes, the challenge in the center is the room that it takes to improve flow. Given the larger bore desires (3.5"), you might consider making the ports "taller" to increase the flow - as you'll have problems going 'wider'.

H) Cubic Inches and Performance: We really need more cylinder wall thickness than we have today at 3 3/8" bore -- I'd like to see .220 or so (such that I can go to a 3.5" bore and have good wall thickness for boosted/blown applications).

I) Crankshaft Throw Clearance: I'd probably pickup a 4 3/8" stroke SCAT crank and a H-Beam rod - to see how the block and cylinder clearances setup on the bottom end.

J) Camshaft Journal Material, Cam Lift and Crankshaft Clearances: Many of us would love to have more material in the front/center CAM bearing areas - so we could use larger bearing diameters for larger lifts. One thing to checkout (with the 4 3/8" crank and rod) is what type of clearances do you have with the cam? How close are you getting to hitting the cam? While I'd love a 'raised cam' design (to clear the crank), this causes all sorts of drama with valve angles, port designs, new cam/crank gears, etc.. Not worth doing . . . but worth at least checking things out in your design.

K) Mains 3 or 5: Would be great to have a 5 main block as a potential option. Now - this would only be for guys chasing more serious horsepower levels --> Arduns, blown engines, etc.. There are definite limitations on the available journal sizes for the two "new mains" - given the dimensions of the block -- there is only enough room for a 1/2" to 3/4" side bearing (depending on throw thicknesses on both sides, what type of radius numbers are used in the corners, etc). Obviously this 'market' is much smaller than the guys who want to run normal crankshafts -- but my guess is that the high-end of the market might want this option.

L) Main Caps: If you make the block stronger in the main areas (very important), then you should also consider much stronger/better cap designs -- with enough material in the block to support 4 bolt caps - maybe quite wide to spread the clamping load out. (Think after market 4 bolt caps for performance SBC motors). Also, I would get rid of the 'half circle' cap indexing methods in use on the stock engines -- no reason to have these index methods when you can use some more modern methods. Also, by NOT having the semi-circular index methods, would make it a LOT easier to retrofit a full stud-girdle across the bottom end. Guys like me (especially on 3 mains) - will probably design a whole 2.5" or so thick stud girdle that covers the whole pan rail. Having better/easier indexing methods (not 6 half circles bosses) would make this easier. As a matter of fact, boy would I love a stud-girdle 'option' to be cast out of cast iron and available as an option for the block. Beats the hell out of having to fabricate one out of aluminum billet or steel.

Okay . . . too much coffee today . . . too many ideas to ponder and I better get to work actually getting something done on my cars - versus pondering the future!

Take care and I LOVE this whole thread and project.

B&S
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Old 05-21-2017, 11:06 AM   #202
rotorwrench
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Default Re: New block

I remember seeing one example of a "whole pan rail" girdle. It's been a while so I can't remember the details of whether it incorporated the caps or if it just surrounded them and augmented structure there. A special pan had to be fabricated but it looked like it was going to beef things up pretty well.

Just about every avenue has been explored before with these engines. They are truly an Icon in the histories of automotive development and racing technology.
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Old 05-21-2017, 11:11 AM   #203
Yoyodyne
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