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Old 05-13-2017, 05:02 PM   #121
Yoyodyne
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Default Re: New block

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Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Yeah. I thought I'd just drill and bust the piston. The valves are a pain.

Tod
You won't have to drill, they are fragile and will break real easy.

The next thing I do is pry each valve open and prop it open with a 7/16 diameter wood dowel (or just a bolt if no one's watching). Then i turn the engine upside down and tap the lifters up away from the cam. When that's done now the cam will slide out. The lifters will slide out the bottom of the bores when the cam is out, giving you more room to work on the guides.

Then I knock each valve guide down .100 or so with a valve guide driver like this


That makes it possible to get the guide retaining clips out without a lot of drama. When you have the clips out you can either drive the valve assembly up out of the block from the bottom or pry them out with a pickle fork.

Real stuck guides can be a headache. I've cut a few valve heads off with big bolt cutters so I can beat directly on the guide with a large drift. Some of the valve stems can be cut in the valley with bolt cutters, the end valves don't have enough access to reach the stem with the bolt cutters.

Edit - Looked at your photos again, you have the straight stem valves and one piece guides, that will allow you to pull the valves out of the guides and make all that much easier.

Quote:
If I want to offer a 21 stud version, will the same basic block do the job?
I don't know the 8BAs well enough to know all the differences, but I can offer the following -

'37 21 stud blocks look just like 59A blocks on the outside with a few exceptions. 37 and earlier blocks have 4 bulges in the pain rails where core plugs are installed, but that would only matter to a show car restorer.

32 to 36 blocks are very different on the front wall because of the lack of waterpumps in the block. There's just a lot less iron there, especially on the right bank. I can see that difference from 15 feet away when a car has the hood open. That doesn't make it unusable, just visually different and requires block off plates, how important that is is a personal matter to the owner.

8BAs have a different intake bolt pattern, with fewer bolts, but I think the same casting would work.

The bottom row of the 21 stud pattern limits the bore dia to about 3.188, maybe a little more. I understand the 24 stud change was made to allow the bores to be enlarged to accept sleeves in '38.
If I was to try to build a big bore 21 stud as a one off I'd ask you to move the bottom row of holes .125 or so then either try to get a set of Sharp heads made with the holes offset or plug and redrill a set of heads myself. But that would be a PITA for production parts, and require dealing with 2 suppliers. Maybe you're interested in making V8 heads too? A 24 stud waterpump head would make that all easier



Questions for the forum - 8BAs have different flywheels, they are much deeper than the pre 49 flywheels. Can you put a pre 49 flywheel on an 8BA crank and use a pre 49 starter?

What oil pan would you put on an 8BA block to put in a pre war car like my 36PU? What clearance problems would arise from that? What oil pump would you use?

What bellhousings are available to do this swap and make the engine and trans line up same as original, and will the front motor mounts work?

Will the 35-up breathers work on an 8BA, the scoop on the fuel pump stand and the breather in the front of the oil pan? I wouldn't want to put an 8BA draft tube in my intake manifold.
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Last edited by Yoyodyne; 05-13-2017 at 05:10 PM.
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Old 05-13-2017, 05:15 PM   #122
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Default Re: New block

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Originally Posted by tubman View Post
There was a guy named "Ray" (user "Flat32") on the "Flathead Ford V8 ... 1932-1953 Forum" who has done a lot of preliminary work on this (cutting up blocks, making cad drawings, etc.). If Tod doesn't already know about him, he probably should. I don't go over there much anymore, and am not really familiar with most of the guys. Are any of you familiar with this guy? He has a steel full-fendered '32 with a fuel injected flathead (I think it's 268") that runs in the twelves, so he's got to know what he's doing. If no one else has better information, I'll try to track him down.
He's here on the barn as Flat32 also. I asked him to sell me a set of his neat aluminum heads, but he said he couldn't find a foundry he could work with.
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Old 05-13-2017, 06:03 PM   #123
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Default Re: New block

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Originally Posted by Yoyodyne View Post
He's here on the barn as Flat32 also. I asked him to sell me a set of his neat aluminum heads, but he said he couldn't find a foundry he could work with.
That's why I'm in the process of setting up my own foundry again.

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Old 05-13-2017, 06:03 PM   #124
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Default Re: New block

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Originally Posted by Yoyodyne View Post
You won't have to drill, they are fragile and will break real easy.

The next thing I do is pry each valve open and prop it open with a 7/16 diameter wood dowel (or just a bolt if no one's watching). Then i turn the engine upside down and tap the lifters up away from the cam. When that's done now the cam will slide out. The lifters will slide out the bottom of the bores when the cam is out, giving you more room to work on the guides.

Then I knock each valve guide down .100 or so with a valve guide driver like this


That makes it possible to get the guide retaining clips out without a lot of drama. When you have the clips out you can either drive the valve assembly up out of the block from the bottom or pry them out with a pickle fork.

Real stuck guides can be a headache. I've cut a few valve heads off with big bolt cutters so I can beat directly on the guide with a large drift. Some of the valve stems can be cut in the valley with bolt cutters, the end valves don't have enough access to reach the stem with the bolt cutters.

Edit - Looked at your photos again, you have the straight stem valves and one piece guides, that will allow you to pull the valves out of the guides and make all that much easier.

I don't know the 8BAs well enough to know all the differences, but I can offer the following -

'37 21 stud blocks look just like 59A blocks on the outside with a few exceptions. 37 and earlier blocks have 4 bulges in the pain rails where core plugs are installed, but that would only matter to a show car restorer.

32 to 36 blocks are very different on the front wall because of the lack of waterpumps in the block. There's just a lot less iron there, especially on the right bank. I can see that difference from 15 feet away when a car has the hood open. That doesn't make it unusable, just visually different and requires block off plates, how important that is is a personal matter to the owner.

8BAs have a different intake bolt pattern, with fewer bolts, but I think the same casting would work.

The bottom row of the 21 stud pattern limits the bore dia to about 3.188, maybe a little more. I understand the 24 stud change was made to allow the bores to be enlarged to accept sleeves in '38.
If I was to try to build a big bore 21 stud as a one off I'd ask you to move the bottom row of holes .125 or so then either try to get a set of Sharp heads made with the holes offset or plug and redrill a set of heads myself. But that would be a PITA for production parts, and require dealing with 2 suppliers. Maybe you're interested in making V8 heads too? A 24 stud waterpump head would make that all easier



Questions for the forum - 8BAs have different flywheels, they are much deeper than the pre 49 flywheels. Can you put a pre 49 flywheel on an 8BA crank and use a pre 49 starter?

What oil pan would you put on an 8BA block to put in a pre war car like my 36PU? What clearance problems would arise from that? What oil pump would you use?

What bellhousings are available to do this swap and make the engine and trans line up same as original, and will the front motor mounts work?

Will the 35-up breathers work on an 8BA, the scoop on the fuel pump stand and the breather in the front of the oil pan? I wouldn't want to put an 8BA draft tube in my intake manifold.
Lots to digest.

Tod
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Old 05-13-2017, 06:46 PM   #125
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Default Re: New block

Tod
Yes the 24 stud block is a derived from the 21 stud block because of it increase in bore size. the stud at the center of the lower cylinder bore was too close to the bore. so it was re moved and 2 studs were installed. If you put a 21 stud head on the 24 stud block most of the bolts/studs will fit.
All you have to d is make provisions for this stud. Then users can drill and tap it.Problem solved. Several years ago I cutup a block and looked inside, very interesting. I have a junk block you can have, for just this purpose. So does most people.
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Old 05-13-2017, 07:11 PM   #126
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Default Re: New block

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Tod
Yes the 24 stud block is a derived from the 21 stud block because of it increase in bore size. the stud at the center of the lower cylinder bore was too close to the bore. so it was re moved and 2 studs were installed. If you put a 21 stud head on the 24 stud block most of the bolts/studs will fit.
All you have to d is make provisions for this stud. Then users can drill and tap it.Problem solved. Several years ago I cutup a block and looked inside, very interesting. I have a junk block you can have, for just this purpose. So does most people.
I'd like to get my hands on a junk 21 stud block. My idea is to make a 21 stud block with most of the same model and make changes as needed. I can't go into all the details of how I will do all of this because most of it is specialized to tooling guys and maybe a vey good foundry man. I have basically designed this while trying to sleep since I decided to do it. If the same basic deck height, crank/cam locations, valve locations and exhaust ports are close, or the same, I can do both blocks very easily. If the rear will suffice as an 8BA style that would be better.

Tod
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Old 05-13-2017, 07:17 PM   #127
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Default Re: New block

There were several tools made that really speed up the process of removing crusty valves. KD made a good one to pull the valves but it is easier if you have a good tool to yank the horse shoe clip out with. The puller will then just pull the valve assembly right out. I use the All Power tools to do most of them but I still have to use the KD tool on some. All Power made an excellent clip puller and a wedge tool that forced the valve up by whacking at the wedge with a slide hammer. There are other tools available that work too but those are the best I've found so far.

On 21 stud differences:
If a person sticks to the later 37/38 21 stud design, it is very close to the 24 stud that followed. The early ones had bolts that went through the tappet galley on through the main cap to bolt them main caps on with nuts on the bottom side and there were different size main bearings on some. I think an 8BA type would work for some since it can be adapted with the Mercury and truck half bells but you have to use the Mercury or truck type oil pan too. Others still might want the early block type with the integral half bell on the back and use the early type vented oil pans to make them look more authentic.

I'm fortunate that I don't have to make those decisions. They aren't easy to make.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 05-13-2017 at 07:26 PM.
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Old 05-13-2017, 07:30 PM   #128
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Default Re: New block

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Originally Posted by Tod View Post
I'd like to get my hands on a junk 21 stud block. My idea is to make a 21 stud block with most of the same model and make changes as needed. I can't go into all the details of how I will do all of this because most of it is specialized to tooling guys and maybe a vey good foundry man. I have basically designed this while trying to sleep since I decided to do it. If the same basic deck height, crank/cam locations, valve locations and exhaust ports are close, or the same, I can do both blocks very easily. If the rear will suffice as an 8BA style that would be better.

Tod
Tod..........Some basic (yet critical) dimensions you need to be aware of. Click the thread below. Bored & Stroked has lengthy details in POST #32, as a place to start. DD

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...lve+centerline
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Old 05-13-2017, 10:08 PM   #129
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Default Re: New block

Here's a good thread full of block ID photos.

https://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25301
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Old 05-14-2017, 06:40 AM   #130
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Default Re: New block

Great info I'm getting here. Contacted by flat32 with offer to help. This will surely happen.

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Old 05-14-2017, 07:45 AM   #131
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Default Re: New block

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Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Great info I'm getting here. Contacted by flat32 with offer to help. This will surely happen.

Tod
That is good to hear.
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Old 05-14-2017, 07:50 AM   #132
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Default Re: New block

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Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Great info I'm getting here. Contacted by flat32 with offer to help. This will surely happen.

Tod
Hey Tod - if Ray is willing to help you, then you've found the guy that has done more with 3D modeling of the flathead block than probably anybody else. He would be by far the best resource you could find when it comes to understanding the current design of the block and the geometry it takes to represent it in 3D.

If these two guys work together - now THAT would be awesome! I'm willing to help with any performance ideas/enhancements that you're willing to consider. I believe a lot of improvements could be made - some major, some minor (but convenient) and some that would be for the high-performance market only.

Let's ALL do this!

D
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Old 05-14-2017, 07:55 AM   #133
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Default Re: New block

Tod,
I'm not very familiar with the early blocks but the later ones always seemed to crack between the water jacket opening and the threaded stud/bolt hole. It has been quite a while but it seems the opening was a triangle shape and very close to the threaded hole. Seems that a round or drilled water jacket hole could prevent this.
Mike.
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Old 05-14-2017, 07:59 AM   #134
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Default Re: New block

It's really neat to see a racer doing this, aiming to make a superior part, not just a serviceable replacement.

Price check dept - There are 3 French blocks on ebay ATM for $3100.00 each from SoCal Speed shop.
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Old 05-14-2017, 08:04 AM   #135
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Default Re: New block

I have been away from flatheads for years and do not remember if the French blocks were stronger or they were just available NOS blocks.
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Old 05-14-2017, 08:26 AM   #136
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Default Re: New block

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Originally Posted by Yoyodyne View Post
It's really neat to see a racer doing this, aiming to make a superior part, not just a serviceable replacement.

Price check dept - There are 3 French blocks on ebay ATM for $3100.00 each from SoCal Speed shop.
Link?

Tod
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Old 05-14-2017, 08:39 AM   #137
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Default Re: New block

Here is the E-Pay Linc.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAND-NEW-ST...mIaiyg&vxp=mtr

The stage 1 is with the governor pad removed but no major porting done. These were the ones imported in mass as surplus through a guy in Houston. San Fransisco Flatheads, SoCal Speed Shop SF NorCal, and Vern Tardel all got into that stash but it won't last. It's a limited supply by now.

Last edited by rotorwrench; 05-14-2017 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 05-14-2017, 12:08 PM   #138
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Default Re: New block

Too much talking, too little casting......
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Old 05-14-2017, 12:37 PM   #139
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My mistake - the Ebay blocks are $3199.99

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Old 05-14-2017, 01:48 PM   #140
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Default Re: New block

Wow has this turned around... for the better.

Tod check out this thread;
https://fordbarn.com/forum/showthrea...6253&showall=1

Looks like he has been working up a 3D drawing of the 59a.
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