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Old 12-07-2018, 04:20 PM   #21
woodiewagon46
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Default Re: Weld and grind roller tracks

I read all the posts about using a cut off wheel and would like to caution using one for grinding. Before I retired one of the shop guys had a cut off wheel disintegrate and hit him in his face and needed 7 stitches. When we told our supplier what happened, he sent a rep in to talk to us about cut off wheel use. He told us that a cut off wheel, no matter what the size, is designed for one purpose, cutting only and not rated for side loading and grinding. I don't use one for grinding anymore. Be careful if you do and be sure to use a face shield.
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Old 12-07-2018, 05:02 PM   #22
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Default Re: Weld and grind roller tracks

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Originally Posted by Curtis in MA View Post
Because I left the cams in place I can't get a 4 1/5" angle grinder on it. I will try the cut-off wheel.

Curtis
No matter what you do the cams must be removed. I do all rebuilding of the tracks with camshafts and bushings removed. You must replace worn camshaft bushings and camshafts. Cams must not be worn and must slide freely in the camshaft.

The preferred method is to have it fixtured and mill it. I only included the cutoff wheel method as it will work for those who don’t have the availability or luxury if a mill and ability to do it that way. The tracks must be perfectly straight to be most effective and you will still need to ensure the shoes are centered.

All of this with proper restoration is vital to well performing brake system.
When done correctly and with good molded lining,cast iron drums, and complete mechanical restoration, brake setup and adjustment the Model A can truly stop extremely well.

Last edited by larrys40; 12-07-2018 at 06:46 PM.
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Old 12-07-2018, 07:09 PM   #23
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Default Re: Weld and grind roller tracks

The brakes are anchored at one end, which except for adjusting does not move. Theoretical, when you adjust the brakes, you are moving the pivot/anchored end only. When the lever is pulled forward, the shoe(s) are swinging from that point and as they move out at the cam end, more and more shoe comes in contact with the drum till they make full contact with the drum.
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Old 12-07-2018, 07:11 PM   #24
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Default Re: Weld and grind roller tracks

If you are that far into the system I do not see how replacing the tracks are more work. In the end you have tracks that have not been Rube Goldberg'd
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Old 12-07-2018, 08:29 PM   #25
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Default Re: Weld and grind roller tracks

I've read these are good quality, from Bratton's. Made to Ford prints and properly heat treated may be another option for you.

https://www.brattons.com/rear-brake-...track-kit.html
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:53 PM   #26
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Default Re: Weld and grind roller tracks

Woven lining.
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Old 12-08-2018, 09:52 AM   #27
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Default Re: Weld and grind roller tracks

In one of the Service Letters, dealers seeking to secure this part with the ears for replacement and the Branch refused, saying they needed to buy the entire backing place since this part received some fine-tuning in the process, undoubtedly to achieve close tolerances with the shoes.


Hence I wonder where our rebuild efforts end up, though I know we have to correct the divot that we see on the ears.
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Old 12-08-2018, 11:37 AM   #28
Curtis in MA
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Default Re: Weld and grind roller tracks

When the brakes are at rest, the head of the roller pin rests on the track. When the brakes are activated the pin moves outward. How far does it move? 1/8 inch?
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Old 12-08-2018, 12:12 PM   #29
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Default Re: Weld and grind roller tracks

Since there are over 250 pieces to a model A brake system, not including bolts and cotter pins, this might be a lengthy discussion...........
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Old 12-08-2018, 12:53 PM   #30
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Default Re: Weld and grind roller tracks

Correct, there is more to getting good brakes then just welding up the divots on the tracks.
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Old 12-08-2018, 01:19 PM   #31
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Default Re: Weld and grind roller tracks

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If you are that far into the system I do not see how replacing the tracks are more work. In the end you have tracks that have not been Rube Goldberg'd


Read post number 27 . Ford never offered the brake tracks separately . A person had to buy the backing plates with the tracks in place . Ford had to make final adjustments on the tracks and knew that the common man wouldn't have the necessary equipment or ability to make the final adjustments . The measurements that are given by some are only a starting point and usually will need adjustment to center the shoes . If the shoes aren't pretty close to centered , the drums won't have the necessary clearance for installation . Brattons sells good hardened brake tracks . Installation of brake tracks alone is no guarantee that the brakes will be centered . A person would be very lucky if the installation of new tracks would be close enough to install the drums without final adjustments of the tracks . Centering the shoes within the drums is pretty much necessary for decent brakes or the ability to install the drums . Being as these adjustments are mostly necessary after the installation of new tracks , I find it easier to build up the original tracks in place and grind for the final adjustments This avoids the necessity of removing and replacing the rivets thast holds the tracks in place. Chiseling or drilling out the rivets will usually distort the rivet holes and effect the final placement of the tracks .

Last edited by Purdy Swoft; 12-08-2018 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 12-08-2018, 01:46 PM   #32
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Default Re: Weld and grind roller tracks

I understand what you are saying however if you distort the holes removing rivets you are doing something wrong. Drill off the heads or tails and punch out the rivet. Do not drive the new rivets as the parts can move rather upset them with a hydraulic press. You might need to use some heat. I have found track kits with excellent fitting parts as well as rivets but then with too small diameter rivets. I have replaced all four wheel tracks as well as everything else that was worn. I have excellent brakes that will lock up on loose dirt or gravel. By the way I have original style drum and linings
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Old 12-08-2018, 02:28 PM   #33
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Default Re: Weld and grind roller tracks

I also use original woven lining and good used steel drums on some of my model A's . I have excellent brakes that will lock up all four wheels on gravel or pavement . There are other things besides the rivet holes that can cause problems with centering the shoes . It is a known fact that Ford knew that installation of new tracks without fine tuning wouldn't solve the problem, that's why Ford didn't offer tracks alone . My experience is that I have installed new tracks and had to fine tune the tracks before the drums would clear . A person may get lucky and get by with installing tracks alone without fine tuning . In some cases there can be enough wear in the drums to get the necessary clearance . In such cases a person may have stopping power at first but after the worn drums get hot and expand the brakes won't be very good . There is a lot more to good brakes than centering of the shoes . Without centering of the shoes the brakes can't be all that good . This is just my REAL world hands on experience , not something that I just can't understand !!!
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Old 12-09-2018, 10:33 AM   #34
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Default Re: Weld and grind roller tracks

If you drive the rivets the tracks can move.
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Old 12-09-2018, 10:52 AM   #35
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Default Re: Weld and grind roller tracks

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I understand what you are saying however if you distort the holes removing rivets you are doing something wrong. Drill off the heads or tails and punch out the rivet. Do not drive the new rivets as the parts can move rather upset them with a hydraulic press. You might need to use some heat. I have found track kits with excellent fitting parts as well as rivets but then with too small diameter rivets. I have replaced all four wheel tracks as well as everything else that was worn. I have excellent brakes that will lock up on loose dirt or gravel. By the way I have original style drum and linings
What you are saying has much merit ...AND most hobbyists do not have the proper equipment to do this job correctly. It is almost imperative to have a rivet gun to set the rivets correctly. Using heat or a Chinese air hammer just does not do the job correctly. Also, when you use an alignment fixture to position the tracks, it eliminates the need to tune. In reality, tuning is a bandaid for compensating for something else that is incorrect.
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Old 12-09-2018, 11:24 AM   #36
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Default Re: Weld and grind roller tracks

Brent, do you have a picture of the track alignment fixture?
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Old 12-09-2018, 12:35 PM   #37
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Default Re: Weld and grind roller tracks

I would be interested to in the track alignment fixture because I just remeoved all my worn tracks to install new ones.

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Old 12-09-2018, 01:34 PM   #38
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Default Re: Weld and grind roller tracks

Set the rivets with a hydraulic press. The tracks should not move. If the tracks are exact direct replacements I do not see a need for some alignment tool or fixture.
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Old 12-09-2018, 02:26 PM   #39
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Default Re: Weld and grind roller tracks

While I can show you an alignment fixture, it really does no good as it won't give you the measurement which come from the housing assembly print. This is available at Benson. Additionally, if the track's holes, and the housing holes are not a reamed fit to the same exact measurement of the rivet, then how do you know they are located properly without some type of fixture? While hydraulically setting a rivet that is designed to be bucked appears to do the job, I am not sure if it actually swells the rivet internally to fit the bore differences, -or whether it is just mechanically clamping the plate on much like a nut & bolt will. My initial instinct is hydraulically tightening the rivet does not correctly buck the rivet.

I guess the bottom line in this entire thread is several have pointed out the most correct way, and even given logic/wisdom/advice as to 'why' on those approved methods of the manufacturer, ...and ultimately you are the one that needs to determine what is best for you. There was a time when I would debate someone who was perceived as taking shortcuts however what I have learned is there are many facets of Model-A repair or restoration that used to be deemed correct over the years until research was done to learn the proper specifications and procedures. Folks are only going to believe what seems believable to them anyway, so why bother? Another such area might be the use of lead based babbitt vs. tin based. Many might argue they have successfully used lead-based without a problem but experience has given us wisdom, and just as in this discussion I have chosen to step back and let folks do as they wish as it is not worth the effort for me trying to convince someone differently. Best wishes in whatever method you choose to do.
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Old 12-09-2018, 03:53 PM   #40
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Default Re: Weld and grind roller tracks

As I have seen and heard the methods of repairing the roller track by welding, how do you guarantee at least a case hardening of the track. Soft welds will undoubtedly wear quickly. Brattons track kits advertise case hardened tracks. Using a Barrett or other concentricity checking fixture I have found most shoes not very well centered. The Ammco, Van Norman, or other shoe arcing machines don't necessarily arc the lining in reference the two end holes on the shoe web. One Ammco shoe clamp(there are three) has a fixed anchor set up. I believe a clamp which can guarantee that the two end shoe web holes are centered is needed to properly arc the lining. If not the shoe lining is not on the same centerline as the holes.
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