Need help at Macungie P.A. Meet.

[peters180a/170b]

Will be there on Aug. 7 ,Saturday with 180A. Recieved my score from French Lick. I need people to look see where the issue is #1 ,I'll take it up with Bill Sturm[ upholstery shop]on TOP and TOP BOOT. Here is one of the top guy's for years on upholstery [along with Marco]on Model "A"s. "BEST TOP" he said on a DELUXE PHAETON he has ever done.. SO lost 2- 1/2 points on top and top boot[ IP= INCORRECT PART/MATERIAL on both]. Boy for years he was the best[ and had alot to do with Judging standard ] I'll take it up with him. 4 points on my [rear fenders/fasteners] and [running boards /trim] where i need the help is. N.O.S. REAR fenders and brackets with orginial hardware,MINT restored running boards but with the "BEST " REPRO RUNNING BOARD ZINC trim and rubber mat. Said lost points on repro parts. 4 POINTS WoW seemed to pass MAFCA on other cars in FINE POINT JUDGING? I had 4 judges both long time judging on all area's for MARC.MAFCA [2 for over 1 hour on the car] days before my car being judged. the lowest score by them 485. One of the judges almost fell off his seat after hearing my score at award dinner Can not be as he jumped up out of his seat. 2 came right upto me in question [what happend] So need help for a looks see .and comments .thank you no i am not pissed off its principal now. I feel i left alot of people down who worked with me over the 7 years and many calls at nite to MARCO and i bet i made the most visits to his website.

[1931 flamingo]

Could it have just been the "judges".. Not sure how "political" judging of model A's is but I do remember when we used to show our Dalmation judging WAS very political.
Paul in CT

[peters180a/170b]

Goodyear tires are the BEST REPRO'S but never get docked , Top Material is the "BEST" reproduced and never gets docked and with that MOST interior is the "BEST" reproduced and never gets docked. I had a offer of using orginial mint hoses for my car but did not do so.ALL parts on my car belongs to my car and "NO" one else.! A judge on a phone call said last year they are starting to allow the "BEST" repro. hoses but make sure the length of them are correct. That where they get you on lost points! So i went with the "BEST''repro hoses and made sure they were the correct length. % was taken off. The letters showed up as [RP]. I spent time making sure "ALL" clamps match up with all correct hardware and the slots of the screw heads were perfect. This score sheet reminds me of a National meet where a judge told me he took points off because the Model "A" was not perfect from FORD[ "WHAT"] Ok my car is not by all means perfect but what kind of thinking is that? Nick picking on most of the other 19 Area's. all small % were taken off but add up at the end of the day. And who calls at what % will be taken off .Nothing in writing its totally a judges call. Could be 8% out of 10% could be 5% out of 10% . I painted the horn parts all at one time and yet a % was taken off for mis match color on horn motor flange? What? hello the cars were in a building with what kind of lights. ALL the same paint out of the same can and sprayed at the same time.This is nick picken.Vince were you there and viewed the cars?? If not then you should have nothing to say if you seen the 68C. Nice car but 1 person call it the way it fell that nite and all others did not even put that car in the hunt for the Henry. i will call Bill Sturm today and find out how he likes someone took off % saying he used the incorrect trim/edge binding and incorrect part/material on my top boot.I thought Bill over the past 40 years wrote the book on this area??? I am sorry he is still working on what would be the final book. I hope you all take this as fun and braking balls... i just don't like nick picking where you look for something. Thats why i don't judge MARC/MAFCA .I start looking overall on the whole car and the work and time that went into it and tend not to nick and pick.

[henry494]

Pete, Repro parts are usually deducted 50%, that includes "the best repro" parts such as hoses, clamps, fan belts, wiring, valve stem covers, etc, etc. Goodyear and Firestone tires do get docked when the owners do not perform the upgrades to match the Standards. The RP notation for your radiator hoses was appropriate. I don't know who told you that "the best repro" parts are being accepted, he/she was mistaken. You are correct when you state that it is a "judges call" as to how much percentage or how many points are deducted. That's part of the definition of a judge. We can't spell out appropriate point deductions in the Standards as there are just far too many possibilities to do so.

You mention the 68C that was in Blue Ribbon, and idicate that someone said it "wasn't in the hunt for the Henry." Sure it was, the same as yours and most all of the others. (See Brent's posts for more on cars his shop built) That black 68C earned deductions for many items too. However, I know it had original hoses, fan belt, wiring, and valve stem covers. You mention how the pecentage of deductions add up at the end of the day. You bet they do! Those few items I noted really add up, and those are the few I am aware of. Probably most or all of the seven or eight points your two cars were apart from each other.

Now I didn't judge all those areas and didn't get the time to look at all those areas on your car, including Sturm's work. Regarding top material, I too have had deductions for material because modern replacements are not exactly like the original. Just part of the game. I know how you have fun and "bust balls," but I also hear whining in your post. I hope I'm off a bit on that and you're having more fun than it actually sounds like. Your car is absolutely beautiful, but it received deductions because it was not completely in alignment with the Standards. You chose to deviate based on your pesonal tastes (Chassis finish for one). I wish I could take a day with you and your car, with the Standards in hand, and review all 23 areas. Opposite coasts prevent that for now.

The judging process is not perfect, but after reviews of several judging sheets from French Lick, it appeared to be quite accurate. I know of a fairly major reduction for reproduction parts that was NOT given to your car as well, so the shoe drops both directions. Sure, there were a few errors as always, but I didn't see anything glaring. I don't believe the judging is "political" as others have hinted in other posts. I've judged at least 19 or 20 nationals and am only aware of a couple instances of biased judging by one individual, and that was addressed by the club so it wouldn't happen again.

Model A judging in Blue Ribbon at the national meets does constitue "nit picking" as you indicated. No argument there. But there's a perfectly good reason. The cars in Blue Ribbon are the best of the best in restored Model A's, and, with our incredibly detailed Judging Standards (compared to many clubs and marques) the process can't be anything but nit picking.

I'm not wanting to start any argument with you Pete, or anyone else. But, when reviewing the judging sheets, I think a person has to take a few steps back and open their minds. Open up to the fact that we are biased to our own cars because of all the blood, sweat, and tears we invest (+ !!$$Bucks$$!!) and be honest with ourselves about those areas we fell short in, or where we chose to do something different.

[henry494]

I intended to put my name on that response to Pete above, as I don't care to be anonymous behind my registered name.

Dave Lopes

[forever4]

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Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

...Vince were you there and viewed the cars?? If not then you should have nothing to say if you seen the 68C. Nice car but 1 person call it the way it fell that nite and all others did not even put that car in the hunt for the Henry.

...i just don't like nick picking where you look for something. Thats why i don't judge MARC/MAFCA...

Pete,
Then why do you submit your car for judging at MARC, and why are you complaining here?

And who are you to say that I should have nothing to say???

And who are you to say that Gary's car was not in the hunt for a Henry, while complaining about the score/judging and award your car achieved?

I am familiar enough with Gary's 68C, as well as his earlier 68B restoration which also achieved a Henry around 1992.
As a matter of fact, I saw the 68C a few days before judging.

I have never seen your car, but I have no doubt it is an exceptional car.
I just don't understand why you are on fordbarn whining about the score you received, or talking down other people's car, or casting dispersions about the judging.
Register your complaints with the Chief Judge and MARC BOD if you feel slighted.

Point Judging is to an objective Standard.
Judging is performed by imperfect humans.

The awarding of a Henry is the only place where cars are effectively competing against each other, rather than to the standard.

The second best car of the meet will not get a Henry if it is 10 or more points from the top car.
However, if five cars are all within 10 points of the top car, they all get a Henry.

The ability to achieve a Henry is totally dependent on the relative point performance of your car against that of the top car on the field that day.
Take your car to the next national meet, with different competing cars, different judging results, and different point spread, guess what? Different Henrys will be awarded.

You may not have gotten the points you think you deserved at that meet on that day with those judges, but you did get the Henry.
Complain away.

Vince

[RockHillWill]

Pete:

It is my opinion that you are an astute and knowledgeable Model A owner and restorer. I looked at your car both before and during judging and was impressed by the job you did on the restoration. Our personal conversations also left me with the impression that you are knowledgeable, pay attention to details, and certainly are willing to do what ever it takes to complete such a difficult undertaking. I was surprised to learn that you do not participate in the judging. I'm quite certain, you would have a more tempered view once you actually view firsthand the amount of discussion, comparison and effort is put into each decision. It is a group discussion overseen by a group or area leader. No one person makes the entire decision as to how many points are awarded in each area. It seems a shame that you do not lend your expertice and first hand knowledge to the judging side of this hobby. Your input would be most valuable and would certainly contribute to making others feel more relaxed about not only interring fine point judging, but reviewing their scores as well. You did a great job. Many folks never do get a Henry. You should be congratulated on a job well done!

[Mitch//pa]

hi pete,
i will be stopping in at macungie but will not be taking my car. i look foward to seeing your beautiful car and meeting you in person.

[peters180a/170b]

Don't worry i still love you guy's [answer's to follow]. lining up the troops.l.o.l.

[henry494]

Pete, Please ad Will's response, word for word, to my response. In addition to what I wrote, I should have included verbiage like that as I was certainly thinking it!

Dave Lopes

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by RockHillWill

I was surprised to learn that you do not participate in the judging. I'm quite certain, you would have a more tempered view once you actually view firsthand the amount of discussion, comparison and effort is put into each decision. .... It seems a shame that you do not lend your expertice and first hand knowledge to the judging side of this hobby. Your input would be most valuable and would certainly contribute to making others feel more relaxed about not only interring fine point judging, but reviewing their scores as well. You did a great job. Many folks never do get a Henry. You should be congratulated on a job well done

How could he be a good judge when he disagrees with the scores he received. If he saw the same things on another car that he has done on his own he would give full points.

For reasons like I have read here on this thread I find it hard to think of showing a fine point car. You paint all the parts at the same time and the judge says they are different, you use NOS parts and the judges say they are repro.

I'm going to have to look in my book to see where it says that repro parts are given 1/2 off automatically. I always thought that it it looks exactly the same as the original it would be judged as such.

Inmagine all the money one can save it they just choose any repo part and no the best repro part? It seems that the points would be the same.

Over the years are there more or less cars at each national show for fine point judging?

[RockHillWill]

Some folks work well with others and are dedicated to their 'activity'. Others sit alone and judge the other folks work. For example: A Pro football player has worked out, controlled his diet, studied plays and practiced with others during the entire week to put his talent on display IN PUBLIC for the world to see on Sunday. On the other hand there are those folks who haver never broken out a sweat all week and can sit alone in their underwear IN PRIVATE on Monday and discuss the failures of the quarterback. It is simply a matter of deciding which day of the week you want to work!

[peters180a/170b]

Will ,you of all people very well knows about restoring a Model "A" for fine point judging after your wide bed pickup. And you still go back for more with your new project on another type of truck[and no question in my mine it will be anything less then super].A answer to Gary K. on the issue [How would this be Judged in Blue Ribbon Judging] . Its a flip of the coin and what club shows up to judge.It seems you restore a car for MARC judging and hope MARC judges show up. Or restore a car and hope MAFCA judges will not show up at a MARC meet.[have their own rules l.o.l.].Case in point ,Bill Sturm spent most of his life [since 1971] on "SUPER" workmanship, finding as close as one can find on[MATERIAL] to be used and accepted by many and in most cases cost to him.As Marco said to me :You take 100 open Model "A"s in a row at Hershey and have 1 top/upholstery done by Bill and it will not take you long to pick out his work. You must have Bill do the work on your car. And So i did. I still have a problem with the horn finish not matching. Not a big deal but the % adds up as i said at the end of the day. Did i put a extra hit of paint on that one part? Same can of paint ,out of the same spray gun ,dried in the same place???[nick picken] Also [Light serrations] on my front fenders?[no bodywork done to them just not deep enough].LOOK at the whole fender and see the work that went into them]nick picken] Does any of these judges know how these fender were made and fast produced.? How cheap the paint was used and thin coat.Is that what we are to use and do[cheap crap] ? Anyone come across fenders at the edge that the metal is very thin?Ever see fenders when you know FORD should of started with another Die and stamp out better fenders.Same as hubcaps? How many did FORD stamp out with the dies. This car was mass produced on a fast line in how many minutes?Ask the REAL guys who restore stainless steel for 35+years..John Young and Doug Bruce will tell you about hub caps and how far FORD streched the use of his dies[looking for a matching set ,good luck my friends]. Doug was forced to restore Radiator S/S shells based on Judges and what they look for ! In his words and restoring at least 100 shells over the many years are: EVERY Restored SHELL is OVER RESTORED and points should be taken off. Shells were not perfect on the sides [THEY WERE WAVY] When ever you punch out holes for conduit [horn/headlights wires] your going to move that metal.So Gary K. its a flip of the coin .Some judges know about the drips and drabs and others look at if you had the spray gun to long in one spot. 1 person told me when a judge does a better job on restoring a car then you ,then he knows what he is talking about. . .Question where are all the past Henry winner ?? You will find most of them going thru A.A.C.A. ? why?? I can tell you why but i'll save that for another day. Time to retirer some of these dinosaur's and have a PRESERVATION class of their own. It seems too that the more judging standards come out the harder it get to 490+ why? Someone or ones are protecting the lead.? Special club? Think about it the same fan belt moves from one car to another [a loaner] just to hang in place for judging,When was the last time you seen a N.O.S. wire harness forsale ,[i almost lost my roadster because of the old stuff]a set of useable orginial hoses , orginial zinc trim for running board[30] correct Material for tops and add them all up and guess what [you are not part of that 490 point club or close ] and no cars will ever be unless you are old enought and put these parts away a long time ago and now starting to restore you car.Something must give on certain parts, or you will never see 490 unless the cars making their second trip around. your's truely ball buster... bring on the brats. inside joke

[29RPU]

Hey Pete,

I'm jumping into a thread that I have no intelligent reason to do so. I haven't ever or will I ever create a points car. Just my thoughts here.

I for one don't think you are whining, you just sound very dissappointed. So should you be when you put all the time, money and effort to making a car as perfect as it can be, and it gets deductions on things that, some of the best in the business, consider perfect. It is only my humble opinion, but I think you should take a deep breath, accept it and move on. Consider it a hurdle and be tempted NOT to change things...maybe the top (again I have no expertise in the suggestion). Show it again and see how it is judged. IF it is true, that there are descrepencies in judging, then you may have a better day in the future without changing a thing.

I think it was mentioned that you received a Henry. Congrats, and enjoy it. Strive to be the best, but enjoy the 'perfect', beautiful car you have created and take pride in your work, not in the judging standards of others.

Tom

[Blessyouboys]

What is a 'nick picker'?

[peters180a/170b]

Tom Thanks , think you are toooooo young to see whats been going on for years now between the 2 Model "A' clubs[i for one always against status Quo]. They have a hard time getting together on the standards. I am not by all means knocking their work ,I have no time as some of them do and or they make the time to do so also. I am lucky to be at the French Lick with my car. That Monday nite before i had to leave on Friday i was replacing a leaky head gasket. Year after year its the same story 1 club has different views then the other on the same car. Look at the fan belt someone brought up to me.[did i have a orginial?] No, but it did pass as a orginial back in the 90's by the top people.There should be a sign on the 2 or 3 orginial fan belts that are HUNG in place before judging [NOW SERVING 00000] like Mc DONALDS.Give it a break already allow good repro's and put the orginial's under a glass show case.Same with the hoses,wire harness .What are we stopping here? [people advance to a higher score. They allow Aries mufflers [which they should] GoodYear tire too. Now i am told the standards are going after correct finish of BLACK. I hope in the standards they have the formula for the correct blacks. Whats stopping you for restoring a Fine point car. ??? Same as alot of others. Why is touring class growing and Fine point cars less and less with every year???. I would like to know how the calls for black paint are going to be made from right or wrong .Is there going to be a guide chart? And based on what??I don't have a dog in the hunt anymore so i can now speak my peace.If people want to listen and agree that fine and disagree thats fine too. I am not out here to make friends. {"Its still a free country"] i think? and thats in question too.And another thing the ACME covers are almost balls on. You would need both orginial and repro side by side. I spent a summer tracking down 2 orginial dust covers and even at that Gary J, and Doc K were not sure of what they had.I put the 2 together and they were a perfect match and so i had a run of them made with NO ONE ELSE stepped upto the plate and tried.Dave you looked 25 years for the dust covers and now this stops you from using them [Please give me a break].I sold them in the open and not behind closed doors. I made some people very happy as many said they are perfect and THANK YOU!. NOT well knowing they are repro we can take points off. Thats B.S. how many people can in the world tell the difference. ? time to go for a drive in my "A" . Now you know why the 170b will not be restored for fine point judging. .

[RockHillWill]

Your'e still my friend. Long live the Brats.

[henry494]

Pete, I don't know how many are following this thread, or how many really care. But, since your comments continue to expand, I feel the need to respond to a couple points you made.

I will start again by stating to everyone that your 180A is beautiful. Period. It is also over-restored in many areas, which I'm sure you will see in your judging sheets. You can't finish chassis parts in glassy-smooth gloss and not expect deductions. Again, you chose to do it this way to suit your personal taste, and it looks great, but that's not what is looked for injudging. Deductions are appropriate.

Repor parts, hoses, fan belts, valve stem covers, etc, if they are detected as repro, they are deducted for. It would be so totally unfair to a restorer for you to receive full credit for your Acme covers when someone searched for years and found originals, wouldn't it? And, your Acmes covers are NOT "balls-on" as you indicate. They are VERY close, but they sure didn't fool me. Really, you think full credit is appropriate for repro parts? Same example as Al&L's 30-31 covers. Very close to original, but not exact, therefore deductions are made with the notation on the score sheets as "RP." And yeah, I probably will use Bridgeports insterad of Acme's on our next car so that nobody thinks I used your excellent repops.

Same with your "best repro" radiator hoses. Many other cars on the floor at French Lick had all original hoses, so why should you receive full credit for A&L hoses? Not all of those original fan belts are passed from car to car. I know many people that own their own fan belts and use them for shows only. I won't loan my fan belts as they took me many years of searching to find and cost too much to take chances with.

You ask when was the last time anyone saw an original wire harness for sale. Last one I saw was on e-bay the week before French Lick. I have one ready in the drawer for our next restoration. You just have to be looking and searching all the time. The parts are out there. I can't count how many times friends have called to tell me about their latest find, and if I had my eyes open at the right moment, in the right place, I could have been the one bragging! That's just part of the game. (I always TRY to congratulate my buddies on their finds, too. It might be me next week)

I'm writing to counter some of your remarks, but I'm primarily writing this so that others do not get discouraged in their quest for the completion of their own high point cars. People need to understand that going for high points is a many faceted game, and is very doable if they are persistent and have a lot of patience. Your comments are painting an inaccurate picture of the Blue Ribbon building and judging process.

Wil C. made a number of correct observations about your comments and your lack of participation in the judging process. I'm doing my best to not be negative, but comments such as yours, in consideration of the fact that you do not participate in the Model A national meet judging process, give folks with less knowledge and experience a bad taste about the whole thing. While I know you love to "bust balls" and have fun joking around, it is time to take a dip in the pool of reality.

It's a beautiful car Pete, you earned a Henry by coming within 10 points of the high point car in contention at the meet. Enjoy the rewards you earned and leave the negativity by the side of the road. There will still be a brat on the grill for you no matter what you write.

[Ron in Quincy]

To Henry 494,

Well said and to the point; I'm proud of you !!!!!

Ron

[glenn in camino]

I've been restoring, touring and showing my Model As for 40 years. I've continued to update them to make them more in line with the judging standards and more dependable for touring. I feel that Model A judging is very fair and the best in the old car hobby. You've probably all heard that there's no crying in baseball. It should be the same for Model A judging. I'm bringing two cars to Vancouver. One for blue ribbon and one for the touring class. I don't expect to win big but I'll be satisfied with whatever I get and will learn what details to change for next time. I also feel that everyone who shows a car should be required to be a judge.

Don't forget, this is supposed to be fun.

[peters180a/170b]

Glenn , What movie did i hear that? There's no crying in baseball[Was that a Tom Hanks movie] . Should be the same as Model "A' judging.. Here's one. I report to "protect" the game.In this case the hobby for fine point cars. What movie was that from? I am not crying but i am speaking up for what's right from wrong or should i say common sence. Henry 494 , Ron and you glenn lets see [WOW all from C.A. what a surprise] . I get the same feeling when i am in the TEA PARTY movement . You guys are far left...l.o.l. ..look if some [RP] parts are not allow to be used then You are starting them off in the minus columm on parts you can not find or be able to be used. How many n.o.s. or good sets of orginial hoses are out there?? Anyone has some forsale. [i asked 3 years ago and only 1 answered with hard as a rock small hose.]Any fan belts forsale?? Wire harness [ Dave said one was forsale on ebay a week before French lick ,,any good? how many complain about buying parts on ebay are there? ] .Time before that i think Doug put one up forsale [what 2-3 years ago].Like i said its a safety factor with that old wire.Almost lost my roadster went up in flames. I am not forgetting, i am having fun glenn .Its just i am saying what i am hearing for years. I am the first to come out of the closet and speak my peace. I was born in the Bronx and back in the day who ever did not belong in the neighborhood was put in a trash can and thru off a 3 story roof. Reason for the trash can ?So the trash was kept in the can when they hit the floor.NO mess... love those grandpa stories.

[Blessyouboys]

I had some wonderful English Stilton today. Stilton on a rye cracker is heavenly.

Now, if I only had some good wine to finish it off...

[henry494]

Pete, My last comment to you on this subject, since you just won't quit whining;

Those that persevere in the pursuit of those hard to find parts will reap the rewards with the judges. Those that buy repro, for wahtever reason, will simply not get the points. Simple as that, no matter what New York spin you want to put on it.

Nine Henry Awards have come home to the West Coast, but that has nothing to do with our political beliefs, and to even mention that in this thread is ridiculous.

I'll bet everyone else is tired of this thread. I'm done with it. Go sit in your beautiful 180-A and whine about your loss of points by yourself.

Dave Lopes

[forever4]

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

You guys are far left...l.o.l. ..look if some [RP] parts are not allow to be used then You are starting them off in the minus columm on parts you can not find or be able to be used. How many n.o.s. or good sets of orginial hoses are out there?? Anyone has some forsale. [i asked 3 years ago and only 1 answered with hard as a rock small hose.]Any fan belts forsale?? Wire harness [ Dave said one was forsale on ebay a week before French lick ,,any good? how many complain about buying parts on ebay are there? ]

Well Pete,
I am not from the 'far left', I have been in the midwest for the last 30 years busily buying (and selling) all the nice and NOS Model A and B parts I can find.
Those parts can still be found today, at very fair prices.

In the past year that I have been back from China I have come up with 5 NOS fenders, 2 near NOS grilles, NOS window frames for roadster/phaeton, NOS engine pan, NOS round speedo, NOS Zenith carburetor, etc etc, as well as numerous NOS and mint used 'hard-to-find' parts, like horns and instrument panels, all at very reasonable prices, not at premium highway robbery prices.

I mostly buy from swap meets, local collectors, and public farm auctions, and the occasional Craig's list.
All such nice and NOS parts are out there if you really are willing to look.
I enjoy looking, finding, buying, photographing and studying, hoarding and also re-selling.
That is my main capability and activity in this hobby.

I have no intentions or ability or illusions of ever building a high point car for judging myself, but I do respect and support the ability and efforts of others such as yourself who do.

Over the years I have sold a quite a bit of NOS and nice used parts to people who appreciated them (both West and East coast), including Marco, Doug Clayton, Timothy Kelly, Chuck Shaw (deceased) and many others on this message board who put them to good use on their high point projects and authentic restorations, and in their own collections.

Regarding rubber specifically, I have sold NOS radiator hoses, NOS light sockets & wiring, NOS body and lighting wiring etc. to some of the (west coast) people listed above.
Beautiful supple mint NOS rubber and wiring, not petrified junk.

So in response to your questions, it is all available if you really look, so there is no reason that reproduction parts should get the full points. It is unfair to the people who put the effort into finding the correct original parts for their high point cars.

Everyone must resolve this issue themselves at some level or another, and each restorer gets to decide which original parts and points are within their ability to acquire, and where they will use reproductions.
Your decision to use or make reproduction parts for some items was your personal decision.

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

I was born in the Bronx and back in the day who ever did not belong in the neighborhood was put in a trash can and thru off a 3 story roof.

Same should hold true for reproduction parts found on Fine Point and Henry cars. They really don't belong in the neighborhood. So no surprise when they lose points and are thrown from the roof by the judges.

Final comment:
Some people feel that California must be some kind of cornucopia of mint and NOS parts.
I don't know, but I've never gotten that impression myself.
Actually in my experience, the states still having the most prolific availability of nice NOS and original Model A parts which can be bought reasonably is Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Pensylvania, Wisconsin, and New York. (and Illinois to some degree)

[peters180a/170b]

Thank you Vince . Maybe i have been[and many like me] looking at the wrong tables at Hershey and locale meets here.It seems more are looking then finding the parts as i am not alone. Wish i had the time looking for those parts. Guess putting ads for them really does not work for me in the past and word of mouth.I can not remember ever seeing n.o.s. or useable hoses on ebay.You would think that would be such a hot item and bring a nice number.3 years i started looking and asking around for them. 1 person sent me a email saying he bought a set 5 years ago at a flea market out west. Guess to do a fine point car you need more then 7 years to complete one ,just to look for parts and hope someone is selling them.Or find someone who started on a fine point restoration "years" ago with all the goodies and could not finish due to age,health,time,money and death.I should not forget recycle past winners.I take it one must have some get-away time to turn up some of those rocks for parts. And yes C.A does not have the parts as we do here.I sold to C.A more then anyone over the years. I don't hold onto parts as i find them[check out what i sold n.o.s. on ebay in the past] nothing close of a collection i had and sold[parts that were not for my car were sold].Yes i have backup parts for the 180A but thats it. I sent a n.o.s. front axle to C.A. /visa picked up at the French Lick. So thank you for your reply .It is harder then one thinks finding those parts,. Its YEARS and not weekends or twice a year National model "A' meets.I am pretty much finished with my car anyway ,The only part i did add so far was the correct square nuts for the cowl light wire inside brackets and working on 2 wheels to match the other 3.And i must thank Marco for all the past phone calls and emails[the calls for help] .That was the most inportant part of this restoration along with Doug Bruce..

[Steve Ciccalone]

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Pete, still the nicest 180-A I've seen. I remember Nick Crea's car in the mid-70's. Mostly all NOS back in the day when those parts were readily attainable. But the polished engine block and the chrome spoke covers were a little too much. I think it had a three door hood as well.

[Jack '29 Sport Coupe]

After reading all of the above----I could use a drink!

Jack

[Scott NY]

I have been following this post, and lot of good points had been made. First of all judging is some what subjective and will change form show to show based on different judges see thing differently. As for the NOS parts they are still out there but becoming hard to find and in some cases to expensive for others to buy. In the years that I have been judging I have been told different ways on how to handle repro parts. At one show we were told to give Aries mufflers full points, even though it is a great reproduction it is not original. So we can go back and forth all day on this subject and in the end you will never catch your tail sort of speaking. Yes Peter your 180A has got to be one on the finest around and I would love to have it in my garage,and yes mistakes are made occasionally ie: original parts mistaked for repro. When it comes down to it it reality all fine point cars are over restored, just my opinion. I posted these pictures on another posting of a couple of clips frpm my original car with there paint runs and build up from being dipped, how do you think fine point judges would score these???? not very high I think. In the end I feel it is more about being with freinds that share the same love for this hobby.

[Mike V. Florida]

Let's go back and re-read the original post :

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

Will be there on Aug. 7 ,Saturday with 180A. Recieved my score from French Lick. I need people to look see where the issue is.......

To me this means that he would like to see where the problems are and how to fix them. I read the Standards on page 12 (revised 1997) under Judging Philosophy states;

"A judge should not bo too harsh because the final point awarded should truly reflect the achievement of the restorer when the various elements of the task are considered"

Then we read from Henry494;

Originally Posted by henry494

Pete, Repro parts are usually deducted 50%, ...

and

Originally Posted by henry494

I know of a fairly major reduction for reproduction parts that was NOT given to your car as well, ...

Where does it say anything about 50% off? I read;

" If the appearance of the of a component is different from those used in the original part, the part must be considered a reproduction or incorrect part and awarded fewer points."

Again, where is it said 50% off if the part is close to an original I read that it should be judged the same as an original part that has issues. Is it being said here that a crappy original part must receive more points over a reproduction part in good condition?

And again if you go to the original post where Pete askes for help in distinguishing what need to be changes to make the part(s) indistinguishable from the original because the Standard state;

"If a reproduction part is such that it is indistinguishable from original, it too will shall merit full points."

That statement reminds me of reading about a guy who took a modern belt, dyed it, stamped the correct things on the top and received full points from the judge that told him to be careful since original belts are valuable and break easily.

Originally Posted by henry494

I wish I could take a day with you and your car, with the Standards in hand, and review all 23 areas. Opposite coasts prevent that for now.

That is what Pete is trying to do! He wants as many eyes as he can get on the car to tell him where he can improve. He needs many eyes because

Originally Posted by henry494

"... it is a "judges call" as to how much percentage or how many points are deducted. That's part of the definition of a judge. We can't spell out appropriate point deductions in the Standards as there are just far too many possibilities to do so."

So the more eyes the better to locate the little things that give a part away as a reproduction.

I don't know Pete, never met him, never spoke to him.

[Mitch//pa]

there are good judges and crappy judges i think we got a taste of the later. i know i was turned off.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

there are good judges and crappy judges i think we got a taste of the later. i know i was turned off.

Did you show a car? If so I'll bet any issues you have can be addressed. If not and you are simply basing your assessment on comments made here, you are being unfair. Most (probably 98%) of all post event griping from national meets is fueled by ignorance, i.e., folks that have never even stepped through that door. MARC and MAFCA judging at a national meet is NOTHING like any other venue, period.

Yes, there are indeed crappy judges. The majority of errors from such judges is the failure to recognize incorrect or non-authentic items, and improper finishes. That does not mean they don't put forth their best effort. I know they do. However the result is the upward skewing of the scores for SOME but not all cars.

[peters180a/170b]

Thank you for not only the kind words about my car but reaching some understanding in this matter. As stated i recieved my score sheets. Just saying [RP] on my rear n.o.s. fenders ,n.o.s. rear fender bracket and correct orginial hardware and finish is no answer. I have gone oven time and time again to make sure. If someone points it {RP} out to me then i'll be the first to say i was dead wrong! Same with the running board trim. All orginial MINT boards ,orginial correct hardware and finish "but " with repro rubber and The best trim made to this point[try to find orginial trim for a 1930 4 piece board]. Ok at a MAFCA meet[Bob Burdick did a very nice job] nice as Aries mufflers and too should get full credit.I have a very good orginial muffler i could of used it but why when full credit goes to Aries too.What if i did put the orginial on??Do i get extra credit or do the judges go back and take % off the other cars>??Here's the story which is a SLAP IN MY FACE or a KNIFE IN MY BACK!. Years ago i bought 2 full sets of N.O.S. Acme valve stems [MINT!] on ebay for $75.00 per set. "NO" Dust covers! Spoke to Dick C. [seller] who have the dust covers? "NO ONE!" Looking for YEARS! and don't know even what they look like.He found a large bucket of these very nice stems. "NO DUST COVERS".Made a call to Doc. K [ Doc do you have any ACME dust covers?] He was laughing at me..Pete in all my years i have seen 1 set on a truck [Don M.].. Back in 1988 Sturbridge MAFCA meet the truck was there i seen it. Doc K. dug up his phone number and so i called. He wanted nothing to do with Model "A" s as he put them in the barn with a pile of parts and closed the doors [years ago]. No way he wanted to help me..... So i placed a ad on FORDBARN .Recieved a email from Gary Johnson. Peter i am not sure but i think i have 1... $40.00 Ok i'll send you some money.Called Doc back [Doc Gary thinks he has 1.? ]Doc, said i have 1 i found on a tube ,stem and all.I'll let you borrow it but i must have it back. So both was a perfect match> Made trips to my friend CNC man ,wrote a program and made 6. Sent them out to Doc K. to review .Pete Stop , they are super ,send me 15 of them. Ok got a call from Dan ,send me 15 too. Took care of my friend Dick C. and made sure he was covered for 7 sets too.Put them forsale on fordbarn and the restorer mag. Sold out 120 of them and now 60 more on order. Here comes the SLAP in the FACE. A person who planned on using them on his next FINE POINT RESTORATION said i can not use them anymore.They know they are repro.All the channels i went thru and less then 5 people in the world may??? tell the different and only after they compared the 2. It will take a fine file to make them perfect. Someone was going to sell them for n.o.s. [thats where i draw the line]. So the [I KNOW THE FAIRLY MAJOR REDUCTION FOR REPRODUCTION PARTS WAS "NOT" GIVEN TO YOU CAR AS WELL]. Doc K. called the "RIGHT" CALL on this issue, And thanks to Doc K. and his "YEARS" with common sence made the right call. And yet the other judge wanted to take % points off and a chance of me not getting the Henry Ford award on a part he was going to use himself. Maybe he knew he can get away with it if i did not spread the covers to everyone and maybe to a chosen few.! .Sorry i like to spread parts around so it help everyone and not just myself . One should help others as i am asking .Most people still can not believe the score i recieved.

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by henry494

I will start again by stating to everyone that your 180A is beautiful. Period. It is also over-restored in many areas, which I'm sure you will see in your judging sheets. You can't finish chassis parts in glassy-smooth gloss and not expect deductions. Again, you chose to do it this way to suit your personal taste, and it looks great, but that's not what is looked for in judging. Deductions are appropriate.

Repor parts, hoses, fan belts, valve stem covers, etc, if they are detected as repro, they are deducted for. It would be so totally unfair to a restorer for you to receive full credit for your Acme covers when someone searched for years and found originals, wouldn't it? And, your Acmes covers are NOT "balls-on" as you indicate. They are VERY close, but they sure didn't fool me. Really, you think full credit is appropriate for repro parts? Same example as Al&L's 30-31 covers. Very close to original, but not exact, therefore deductions are made with the notation on the score sheets as "RP." And yeah, I probably will use Bridgeports instead of Acme's on our next car so that nobody thinks I used your excellent repops.

You ask when was the last time anyone saw an original wire harness for sale. Last one I saw was on e-bay the week before French Lick. I have one ready in the drawer for our next restoration. You just have to be looking and searching all the time. The parts are out there.

It's a beautiful car Pete, you earned a Henry by coming within 10 points of the high point car in contention at the meet. Enjoy the rewards you earned and leave the negativity by the side of the road.

Pete sorry had to chime in on this..

Well Your car is great and truly something to be proud of, you know how i feel about it and told you so right after the awards were given, lets start by saying that, I want to add to some of the points Dave made above. As you know i did judge undercarriage and yes it was over restored and you were given deductions. Glass gloss was not appropriate now matter how great it looked, I am aware of the controversy of the black but studying enough will give you the correct answers and by judging you will become much more knowledgeable. When we judged your undercarriage we had to take into consideration what we know as judges is wrong and what we believe is correct. Those are the standards we have to go by, be it write now in the 2000's or right in the 90's, this is what is judged now. As will stated, by participation and education above and beyond this comes. I was aware of all your work on your car from the update and photos you sent and something truly to be proud of, however having to convince my other team members that it was NOT powder coated and painted indicated immediately, over restoration. I am sorry but the points had to be deducted. We did get nit picky on your car as well as all others, you were given full points for all your grease fittings also.

As you know we are doing a fine point car also, I am a believe that not only is the hard part to find the parts very difficult but unless one educates them selves on what they need and what it should look like it is all in vain.. YES i do have a NOS wire harness,. So not only original but NOS, and Many many NOS engine parts, bell housing and such. But that does not mean it is perfect, color, texture, finish, was it left over parts etc,. hence the over restoration, and yes i spend the $$$ to find NOS Hoses, clamps, valve stems etc and more, I did it because it is correct and we want the full points and the repo parts that are not correct and SHOULD be deducted for. I spent 4 years looking for an original battery only to find that they are NOT deducting on the script repos now.

Pete you got a HENRY...my god what a great "Club" to be in, they are far and few as between, you actually got the points that the judges saw fit., YES pete there were cars that were better and some worse. However you Henry is an Honor and forget the points, your car is stunning and your work showed it, participate in judging, educate oneself and keep an open mind, learning is the heart of our hobby and most important is the FUN we all get from it..

Just me thoughts
Mark Maron

[glenn in camino]

Major League.

[MCHinson]

I probably should stay out of this, but I guess I am not going to. I recently retired and now have the time to spend on this site. I have been following this thread recently. I have owned a few Model A's over the past 20 years or so. I have been a member of MAFCA for many years. I have been a member of MARC for a few years. I have been a member of AACA for many years. I am quite active in AACA since there is a local Chapter in my city. There don't seem to be many MAFCA or MARC meets anywhere near Southeastern North Carolina. As such, I have been more active in AACA than MAFCA or MARC. I am active in AACA Judging on a local, regional, and national level. We have enough trouble keeping AACA Judges from being "Nit Picky".

My current Model A is a 1929 Phaeton that was restored in 1989. I bought the car in 2006 and freshened it up and have since received an AACA Senior Grand National Award with the car. From what I have read here, it sounds like I am lucky that I have never had the chance to take the car to a MAFCA or MARC meet. I think that my car would be laughed off of the field at either of those types of meets. Luckily, I have more fun driving the car. I may be stupid, but I take this "show car" touring. I have probably put a couple of thousand miles on it since receiving the Senior Grand National Award, and the tours have been much more fun than the car shows. I am a firm believe that the Model A was made to be driven and the hobby is supposed to be fun.

If you enjoy the competition, enter the competition. If you don't like the judging system, stay away from it. As long as you understand the system that you are competing in, if you don't enjoy it, you have two basic options, walk away, or work within the system to get it changed. Complaining on a discussion forum will not change it, you have to work within the parameters of the system to make changes. I admit that this discussion has probably convinced me that I want to stick with the AACA judging system. It sounds to me like the level of "nit picking" in Model A Meets is just not for me. Best of luck to everybody. Hope I have not stomped on too many toes...

[sonny30coupe]

When you ask men their opinion of another mans car, you are going to have people that are not happy. That is what you are doing when you judge for these events. I dont envy those that do it. I take my hat off to them, they have a hard job. I would like to do it some day myself. I have won many a bike shows, and lost very few with the bikes I build. But when I dont get first place in a show, no big deal. Life goes on. There will always be another show and another day. With all that said, will somebody be his friend and loan that man an original fan belt?

[glenn in camino]

Does anyone think this discussion will have a positive effect on Model A judging? I don't.

[peters180a/170b]

Sonny [Thank you but the fan belt recieved full credit as it did back in 1988 ,1990 ,thank God i bought 6 of them] .I am thinking of others down the line. I have 2 n.o.s. wire harness and 3 n.o.s. Terminal box to Cutout. Orginial from day one or early Ford replacements. Glenn ,Change to a positive Model "A" judging? Might and i hope even 1 thing will change for the good of future Fine Point Judging. ACME dust covers. Can do balls on but thats upto the owner of them to do a simple change. I did not want them to be sold for n.o.s.. which does happen.. He said he can tell the difference.Sure side by side and look long enough. Ask him how long he has been looking for orginials??? I have his email [25 YEARS] .and he is not alone. So how long wound he wait if i did not come along? Everyone who bought them are very happy and very glad i did .They sell for a full stem set [$400.00 ] plated and ready to go.Doc K. sold his last set at the French Lick.Dan B. is out of them too.[VERY RARE] They are closer to orginial then as ARIES muffler , Ford script battery ,..Mark do you remember how many points i lost on my undercarriage? All correct and i was even with Dougs in points.[we were the 2 top cars].That does not bother me.A incorrect call was made on some nuts.Judging standards did not say [when luggage rack was used has a different set up] .And Marco and i corrected the judge for future judging. Will be added in New standards[i was told].That's by "ALL" means cost me just about zzip!And both guys are very understanding. But its the {RP} with no explation on rear fenders /fasteners , running boards /fasteners. 5 points thats a hit .You work on YOUR car for 7 years ,know every nut ,bolt ,lockwasher ,carriage bolt because you found the correct part, wire brush them ,metal prep them ,in some cases had them plated [raven,cad finish] lost layers of tissue from you fingers and to have someone say [RP] .?Where is a referee??? Here's a idea for the next meet. Wed they finish judging and the totals are complete. Thursday, 1 referee goes over the car with the owner and shows what is wrong. Right now we wait all day Thursday and Friday for award dinner at 7:00 .. If someone told me i lost 1 point for Over restoration on my undercarriage believe me i have no problem with that. And hoses ,wiring that fine too. But the [RP]? at least i have a chance there and now, WHY? Like they said judges do make wrong calls and take off to many% of points.And all can be corrected before the award dinner. Its not like there's 20 + fine point cars at a meet. Now that would be a change for the better ,... 494 ,68C both good guys ,hell i make it a point every Hershey to visit Gary at his spot even if i don't buy anything from him. He's one of those faces you want to see and say hello to.And yes his car deserves a Henry[just not that many points over mine..l,o,l,].And his wife GREAT Gal. She makes sure you stay away 2 feet out from the car.Crap i had kids looking over my doors to see inside my car while standing on the running boards. WAIT a minute ,,i'll open the door for ya. I had parents take pictures of the kids sitting behind the steering wheel.All in fun. And 494 would be no more ,,If after 10 years have past someone would say [YOU have the wrong jack]! You need a hole in it! Then he would be known as 495... All those National Model "A" meets and no one till French Lick.. wow........

[glenn in camino]

Peter, This has been kinda fun but I think it's time to let it go.
Glenn

[peters180a/170b]

The End !

[henry494]

Pete,
I thought I was done with this thread until you mis-stated a couple facts. I can tell the difference between your Acme covers and the originals without them being side by side, no problem at all. Your covers are very nice and very close, but a good judge can usually tell the difference, and should be able to, so that the owner who pursued original parts will be awarded accordingly. And no, I haven't looked 25 years for my full set of Acmes, I have owned them 25 years. Recheck what I wrote, and if I wasn't clear, then now you know exactly what I meant.

You wrote that your 180A and Doug's Roadster were the top two cars. No, Gary and Trudy'e Cabbie were between you two.

Please return and read Will's earlier response about participating and understanding the judging process.

To the readers, I am done with this thread, we have definitely wasted enough of your time, and accomplished nothing, other than the possibility of alienating some from pursuing their Blue Ribbon goals. If that happened, e-mail me and we'll have off-line discussions so I can encourage you to get back on track and ignore the nonsense of the whining in this thread.


Dave Lopes





"He said he can tell the difference.Sure side by side and look long enough. Ask him how long he has been looking for orginials??? I have his email [25 YEARS] .and he is not alone. So how long wound he wait if i did not come along? "


"All correct and i was even with Dougs in points.[we were the 2 top cars].That does not bother me."

[peters180a/170b]

Dave , Dave ,Dave... Ok ,i'll give you that on :25 years you "owned" the valve stems and caps but "WITHOUT" dust covers. In 25 years if you came across the orginial covers you would have them by now.? I know i would and so would alot of others knowing they are impossiable to find.!!! If you are unhappy with them i'll give you a full refund on them and postage. I mean its only fair. I don't like the word REPRODUCTIONS. It gives a very good made part a bad name. Lets call ARIES MUFFLERS , FORD SCRIPT BATTERY ,RUNNING BOARD TRIM made by BOB BURDICK,and ACME dust covers a new name [ SERVICE PART]. A+L parts are [SERVICE PARTS] compared to some of the crap thats made out there. Judging should allow "certain" [SERVICE PARTS] to be used ,,,i am not saying all parts made overall,, just the ones that fit, and are close to orginials [ie Fan belts ,hoses and wire harness].. I also want to correct on my comment about "EVEN" with Dougs car. On his and mine both engine area and undercarriage we were even and the 2 top cars in that area's. NOT over all.WHINING is "NOT" in my Dictionary ! Common sense ,confused somewhat on [RP] parts marked on my sheets. "FIRST SHEET" of judging standards participating in Fine point judging at this years French Lick meet. SUGGESTIONS ON "HOW "YOU MAY IMPROVE YOUR SCORE WILL """BE NOTED ON THE SHEETS"""" This tread started out with NEED HELP AT MACUNGIE P.A. MEET!!! [Putting {RP} on a sheet is NOT a SUGGESTION ON HOW TO or what part is when you have a dozen parts under one area.!. P.S i did find a mistake on my sheet and WILL take it up with Larry S. [note: and in my favor!] someone did not carry over the right amount!!! So as you say my WHINING will have some merit to it.... Please send the covers back i have people waiting for them .5 less i will not need to make. I am looking out for a frozen Brat to hit me in the head.... One more thing if a person has a orginial belt, hoses and or wires then give full credit to [SERVICE PARTS] gives them the chance to change to them too! It will stop the hard to find in a very short supply ,high price orginial hard ,whipped orginial parts to be used. Everyone at that point will be even ON those items.

[forever4]

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

Dave , Dave ,Dave... Ok ,i'll give you that on :25 years you "owned" the valve stems and caps but "WITHOUT" dust covers. In 25 years if you came across the orginial covers you would have them by now.? I know i would and so would alot of others knowing they are impossiable to find.!!! ...

... Lets call ARIES MUFFLERS , FORD SCRIPT BATTERY ,RUNNING BOARD TRIM made by BOB BURDICK,and ACME dust covers a new name [ SERVICE PART]. A+L parts are [SERVICE PARTS] compared to some of the crap thats made out there. Judging should allow "certain" [SERVICE PARTS] to be used ,,,...

...WHINING is "NOT" in my Dictionary ! ...

...One more thing if a person has a orginial belt, hoses and or wires then give full credit to [SERVICE PARTS] gives them the chance to change to them too! It will stop the hard to find in a very short supply ,high price orginial hard ,whipped orginial parts to be used. Everyone at that point will be even ON those items.

Pete,
Why are you arguing with Dave about how many original dust covers he has owned, or for how long?
Why don't you just come straight out and call him a liar on the message board?
Unbelievable, your posts.

Since when, would a dust cover or running board trim be a "SERVICE PART" ?
It is just a reproduction. Simple as that.
And there are other plentiful alternative to Acme valve hardware.

Tires, batteries, and mufflers (and belts and hoses) are all 'consumable' parts, and I could see the argument to accept the best reproductions of those items in judging, with a specified deduction.
But repro dust covers and running board trim get full points???? Come on!

"...give full credit to [SERVICE PARTS] gives them the chance to change to them too!" is a great way to completely diminish the value of everyone's (including yours) Henry awards and fine point efforts, and to dumb down the fine point judging to the Touring Class or AACA level.
"...Everyone at that point will be even ON those items." Why should people using reproduction parts be 'even' with those who take the time to find and restore originals??????

Maybe you would be a lot more satisfied just sticking with AACA judging or Touring Class and forget about MARC/MAFCA levels of authenticity in Fine Point.

I am sure glad whining is not in your dictionary.
Your continued posts about the judging and points your car received is a poor reflection on you, and an insult to all the many people who make a greater effort towards authenticity and original parts, and an insult to the people who took the time and consideration to carefully judge your car.

By your own statements, you will not participate in judging, but you want to have a post-judging review at the meet and referee of your score so that you can 'explain' it and revise the score before the awards banquet. And now you invite the peanut gallery to meet you at Macungie to review your car and scores. Sad.

[peters180a/170b]

Vince , If someone is willing to restore a car for Fine Point judging at what point will it be that there's no more orginial Hoses ,wiring and fan belts to find and use? Sooner or later this is coming.[COMSUMABLE PARTS ? Water hoses 85 years old and fan belts are NOT?] . Is it going to be fair to tell them you start off in a minus column until the cows come home? Dave is not a liar by all means. He seems not only he ware's sandle's but he can walk on water too!. The top Judge in this area has NO PROBLEM with what SERVICE PART i had made.[acme] dust covers] If i did not make a run of them which Dave said are close then what do people do with just the stems? They are in the JS. . Do we write them off and accept them as a part that is not avaliable so no one will ever see a complete ACME valve stem.I wanted to be different, Seeing Schrader are getting boring .The Schrader stems made today with some work are passing the judges.Dave was not willing to pass them on judging on my car. But yet willing to use them himself . I am not new to MAFCA/MARC judging. I did recieve a Henry Ford award and a MAFCA of EX. back in 88/90.It seems the parts are getting harder to find or not avaliable and the judging is getting harder with some judges. Its 1:00 and time for B.B.Q and a few cold ones... See ya tonite... P.S,, i wish i had a movie camera at the French Lick when some of the FINE POINT cars had to start the mandatory tour after they cleared the front door... Anyone say NASCAR PIT STOP. orginial fan belt off, plugs out. All i did was turn on the gas, hit the starter and off Tim and i drove.

[TerryH]

How many times do we have to cover the same points, with the same rebuttals from lots of knowledgeable, involved folks?? I don't think the judging is going to change for you, and I don't think you are going to ever accept it....so all that is left is endless bickering and the longest continuous post in history.......as others have said, let's p l e a s e move in to another interesting topic...........

[henry494]

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Here we go again.

Pete, I just don't get it. Why don't you actually read what's been posted?

Your quote;
"Dave , Dave ,Dave... Ok ,i'll give you that on :25 years you "owned" the valve stems and caps but "WITHOUT" dust covers. In 25 years if you came across the orginial covers you would have them by now.? I know i would and so would alot of others knowing they are impossiable to find.!!! If you are unhappy with them i'll give you a full refund on them and postage. "


My response;
Pete, I did NOT buy any Acme covers from you, never will. I will repeat again, since you seem to have missed what I wrote;
Your Acme reproduction valve stem covers are very nice, but do not match originals, therefore, should receive a deduction in judging.
To make it perfectly clear Pete, I received a full set of five Acme valve stem covers, all at once, not NOS, but mint condition, approximately 25 years ago. Are we clear on that now? (Not that this point really matters at all to anyone)

Your quote;
"Dave was not willing to pass them on judging on my car. But yet willing to use them himself."

My response;
Correct Pete, I am not willing to pass reproduction parts for full points in Blue Ribbon judging.
No, I am not willing to use them myself. Please explain where you get that from. I have never said it, nor have I ever written anything like that.

So many good people have tried to explain this to you Pete. I thought I was done with your whining about the judging process at National meets and responding to your nonsense remarks. But since you continue, let's have a look at what the Judging Standards say about reproduction. I'm going to skip over very important paragraphs on page 11 and 12, that you need to review. Go get your book and read along with me Pete.

Page 12

"The hobby is not getting easier to pursue. While there are plenty of original parts around, the quality is often poor-making the restoration much more difficult. The difficult pieces are nearly impossible to locate. However in the final analysis, a quality restoration should receive the recognition it deserves."

Pete, this means that the person who spends the time and effort to locate original parts receives the points over the person who decides to quit looking and whines about how hard it is to find those parts. For some, the joy is in the hunt.

Page 12

"An original part that is well restored and correct for the vehicle being judged shall be awarded full points. If a reproduction part is such that it is indistinguishable from the original, it too shall merit full points. If the appearance of a component is different in any way or if the materials are different from those used in the original part, the part must be considered a reproduction or incorrect part and awarded fewer points."

I added the bold type so that you wouldn't miss it. This is what we have all been trying to tell you, plus many other things, such as not whining about the score and the judging when you don't even participate. I won't even respond to your suggestion about "referees" after judging takes place.

Again, Pete, before you post any more nonsense, or want to jump at me for writing the truth, go back and read a bunch of the other people's responses. Vince, Will, Marco, and others, all wrote excellent, truthful responses. You just seem to want to ignore them and the truth.
Others have expressed their displeasure at reading this thread and someone even got turned off of the Blue Ribbon judging because of this thread. Do you really want people to lose interest just because one person (You) decides he doesn't like a process that's been in place, and has worked so well, for so many years?

Everyone - Maybe I'm done with this subject. I guess it depends on whether or not Pete reads and absorbs what he has been told. I will repeat that anyone is welcome to contact me off-line to discuss Blue Ribbon cars and the judging process. I won't discuss Pete and his beliefs or whining off-line because that's just not right.

Pete, I will repeat once again. Your 180A is a beautiful car, a beautiful restoration. You chose to show it with over-restored components and reproduction parts for your own personal reasons. Live with it. Go pat your Henry Award on the head because you earned it at French Lick.

The brats are getting cold.

[Fred]

Pete, You said you wanted to be "QUOTE", Different, You are !! You are still trying to say that your use of "REPRODUCTION" items, which you even admit to using in several areas should get full points.. What about the guy that shows up some day with originals ?? You should have gone with original "DILLS" to be different, instead of trying to fool every one..

[henry494]

I forgot to sign my name to the post above. Don't wish to be anonymous.

Dave Lopes


ps: The "brats" refer to Johnsonville bratwurst dogs. Hmmmmm, they're so good. We have them after judging at the Nationals. It's a tradition thing.

[peters180a/170b]

Fred i used Dills back in the 80's 90's. they are very nice and hard to put a set together. ACME i seem to like because there's about maybe 35 sets most n.o.s. stems and caps. I can say "NO" one will go out of their way to remake the valve caps or stems.Bridgeports i see on ebay forsale at $800.00 a set. Acme n.o.s. stems/caps and bridgewasher a full set on ebay $75.00 minus dust covers .A set of dust covers [5] i charged $75.00/$15.00@. plus plating for the whole set came to $210.00 total... I had a nice set of TR83 Schraders /2 being n.o.s. for the car but the other 3 were so-so. I want to get the car done in my life time and it was bad enough at 7 years.That's how long it took me to find a set of correct matched Schrader's. Hell Schrader has type 1, 2 and 3. Had a nice set of n.o.s. Schraders TR83-A[31's] at $125.00 ..Bought them from a guy in CA. and sold them to a guy in CA. same amount of money. Not to many people out there doing a Fine Point car and think its the part problem.

[Fred]

OK, So What you are saying is you should get the same amount of points for your "KNOWN" reproduction covers as the car with the original Bridgeport covers ??.. If that happend to me then I would be P/O...

[Mike V. Florida]

Let me tell you what I’ve gotten out of this thread.

1) If a person asks for help in determining how to better decipher the judging sheets he/she will be attacked, bashed, vilified, and driven from ever entering fine point again.
2) Fine point judging has matured to a point where access to original parts by way of the internet, makes reproduction parts unnecessary as eventually the NOS part can be found.
3) As long as there is an NOS part available somewhere in the world, in someone’s collection even if it is not available to the general population reproduction parts will be unacceptable for full points.
4) Restoration of the fine point class of cars has become available only to the wealthy.
5) Judges decisions on the amount of points is up to the judge and there is nothing required to done assist the owner on how to inprove. (example 50% off point for reproduction parts is not in the standards anywhere and depending you/where it is judged it may change)

Except for number 1 these are just facts of the event.
I ask again about the number of entries in fine point judging, are they in decline? I have not been to enough meets to tell.

Maturity is inevitable in any event. Just take a look at what’s out there that has matured. The three minute mile that was a barrier for hundreds of years is now broken by those in high school. Baseball has evolved to a point were drugs are needed to push the envelope and there are those that think nothing is wrong with that.

I’ve been involved in Model Airplanes for almost 25 years before my Model A came home with me. I have seen scale models mature from award winners that the slightly above average builder could make to models that take CNC machining and a cost equivalent to an automobile. I know where the first ¼ scale model, as recognized by Scale Model Builder Magazine, sits today. It won all kinds of awards in its day and it looks like crap compared to what is built today. Today there are professional model aircraft flyers and builders, these select few are the ones that make these miniature aircraft look like the original planes were shrunk down and put on display.

Again is this wrong or just evolution?

What does this mean to me and my family, as my 16 year old son is working on a Model A? After reading all this we have decided to build the car to touring class grade and give up on fine point. Unless I win the lottery, even with two jobs I cannot afford to build fine point car. We were planning to use the best we could find and rely on the judging sheets to determine what would be needed to be upgraded to improve the score as I have no idea how to tell an NOS from NORS from just old. We have already spent money on parts that we have been told were not was used for the car, and I don’t want my son to go through what Pete has gone through.

We will continue to gaze in wonderment upon the cars that meet the criteria of the standards as nothing bad can be said about a truly original car.

What is next in the evolution of judging? Will it become a thing of the wealthy where they send out the cars to be restored and pay for it by the month until it is finished. Is that not how concurs cars are done?

There was a time when the other antique car clubs did not even have standards for Model A's but that has changed. We have a couple of members that often show there cars in these venues. Is this the future, I don't know. I do know that I feel beaten down and I don't even have a dog in the fight.

[henry494]

Mike,
You make some good points, but my personal experience counters some of them, so my reply to you is based only on my experience and does not speak for all.

"1) If a person asks for help in determining how to better decipher the judging sheets he/she will be attacked, bashed, vilified, and driven from ever entering fine point again."
I disagree here, as this thread is really about Pete's whining about the scores he received in French Lick for the reproduction parts he used and some over-restoration on his car. It's is also about some items that may have been incorrectly scored, and how we as car owners have to deal with that due to the subjective nature of the judging process. If the distance didn't prevent it, I would still gladly go over his whole car with the judging sheets and help him, even after all of his whining. It's also about Pete's lack of knowledge of how current Model A Blue Ribbon judging is conducted due to his lack of participation, and his apparent inability to understand this no matter how many people advise him.
I have people ask me quite often for help, and I always give that. My friends who are involved in this crazy part of the hobby do so as well, I witness it all the time.

"2) Fine point judging has matured to a point where access to original parts by way of the internet, makes reproduction parts unnecessary as eventually the NOS part can be found."
Very true. The parts are out there, a person just has to keep searching. Yesterday, I found a clutch pedal, not nos, but I cannot see any wear on the ribs. If it weren't for the grease, I wouldn't know it was used. There were so many nos parts available at the French Lick swap, it's make you dizzy. Truly, Mike. The stuff is out there, and not always at a price that breaks the bank. I dig a lot in the non-Ford piles, as those folks don't always know what the Ford stuff is, and let it go for a song. That's a big part of the enjoyment of doing a fine-point car, "The Hunt."

"3) As long as there is an NOS part available somewhere in the world, in someone’s collection even if it is not available to the general population reproduction parts will be unacceptable for full points."
True, and the Judging Standards support this, to a point. We'll never know what's truly not available and/or when "the well runs dry" on certain parts. However, the Standards are written so that the person who does find that original part will be scored higher than the person who chooses to use repro. But, the Standrads are also written so that if a peron is able to make the judges wonder whether a part is gennie or not, he gets the benefit of the doubt and gets the points as if it is original. Repro parts can, in many instances, be modified to appear original. Not all of them, but many.

"4) Restoration of the fine point class of cars has become available only to the wealthy."
Nope, can't agree with this at all. I don't know everyone's personal financial level, but I am pretty close friends with several of the few owners of cars that have ever scored over 490, and several of cars in the 450 to 490 range. I can tell you, this group is full of low to medium budget guys that do the far majority of the restorations at home with their own hands. Honest. For myself, I am definitly not wealthy by any means, not retired, work long hours, have a busy family, etc, etc. Our Phaeton was done at home in about five years time. I did nearly all the work except upholstery, plating, and engine internals, at home. Others I won't mention by name, have done the same, and even more. I hope they will read this and chime in with their two cents so that you will be encouraged to continue your and your son's quest for a Blue Ribbon car.

"5) Judges decisions on the amount of points is up to the judge and there is nothing required to done assist the owner on how to inprove. (example 50% off point for reproduction parts is not in the standards anywhere and depending you/where it is judged it may change)"
The judging sheets do provide some insight to the owners about what they need to improve. However, I have to agree that they don't do a lot, nor are they designed to. We have to network and help each other a lot for this. E-mail me, and many other Blue Ribbon fanatics with questions for help and see what kind of response you get.
It's unfortunate I wrote about 50% deductions. That is not written into the Standards anywhere. It is the deduction a particualar Team Captain uses in Area 22 for reproduction deductions. However, when using the expanded 5000 point judging system currently being used, where the scores are expanded 10 times for judging individual components, then divided by 10 for the final score in the area, a 50% deduction on one item amounts to a very small overall deduction. Not easy to explain without an example of the judging sheet in front of us. I was responding to Pete's comments and my reply only applied to Area 22, I was not speaking for all areas, and I did not make that clear.

There has been an overall decline in Blue Ribbon participationover the years. That's one big reason why I keep responding in theis thread, I don't want people like you and your son to get discouraged by one person's whining.
Red Ribbon participation has grown at the same time, and the quality level in Red Ribbon sure has increased. You make a very good point about maturity in an event or hobby using model airplanes as an example. Couldn't have picked a better example for your point. As the Judging Standards have become more detailed, so too has the restorers' ability to restore more and more like what Henry Ford rolled down the line. Sure, most of our Blue Ribbon cars are "over-restored" to some degree, I doubt anyone will disagree, but they are more accurate than ever before. Just compare to the cars that were resstored in the 70's with pure gloss chassi and engine compartments!

"What does this mean to me and my family, as my 16 year old son is working on a Model A? After reading all this we have decided to build the car to touring class grade and give up on fine point. Unless I win the lottery, even with two jobs I cannot afford to build fine point car. "
Again, this is why I'm staying engaged in this thread. There's no reason why you and your son have to give up that goal. Yes you two can afford to do a Blue Ribbon car, and yes you can do that at home with basic skills and basic tools. I am here to tell you that I did exactly that, twice. There are two Henry Awards on our shelf, 1991 and 2001. Both cars built on a low budget at home with just the basics. YES YOU CAN.

"What is next in the evolution of judging? Will it become a thing of the wealthy where they send out the cars to be restored and pay for it by the month until it is finished. Is that not how concurs cars are done?"
I'll share something very personal in response to that. At the MARC Indianapolis meet in 1991, Bruce Bone, who had a beautiful 400A, and I were holding our Henry Awards while Ken Keely was taking photos. Bruce leaned over to me and said, "I jealous of you Dave." Knowing what a wealthy man Bruce was, I was surprised and asked what the heck was he jealous about? Bruce said, "You built you car your self." I was beaming with pride because it was true. However, I did whisper back, "I'm jealous of you too Bruce, because I'll never be ablt to write a check as big as you have for your car!" (Terry Deters did that restoration for Bruce)
Really Mike, you and your son can do this.

Dave Lopes

[peters180a/170b]

Mike , Very well put on all [5] area. If you do not have copies of the 23 judging standard sheets i'll send you mine to give you a idea on the breakdown. I'll repeat what the front sheet said: SUGGESTIONS ON HOW YOU MAY "IMPROVE". YOUR SCORE WILL BE """NOTED ON THE SHEET"""..I will use this as a sample on one of a few of my sheets. Instrument Panel and controls , 'Panel'- assigned points 20 [score 17] Why? .Speedometer points 20-[score 19] gas gauge 15 [score14],Chock rod 10-[score 9] ,switch+keys 20-[score18] .Mike, all these add upto not even 1 point off [almost]. But as a owner that did his homework i would like to know where and what i missed? Nothing was filled in as Judges comments. Same as other sheets but not all .Take interior plating ,[2 pages] 65 points total in this area and a credit goes to this team[a lg. area to cover].Not a biggie but out of all my plating [ IF=incorrect plating] assigned points 20 -score [18]. Ok i can live with that equals to way less then 1/4 a point but if its a part i can now remove and sent it out for correct plating i have no idea what part. Again i did my homework.When i started this restoration 7+ years ago,, a long time [MARC/MAFCA] judge tried to talk me out of it and told me at Hershey that some of it is political ,interrupt of a finish or restoration work by the judge at that time. A friend judging at a MARC meet on a team and he was restoring a fordor sedan and knew a area of judging by the book because he just finished his car in that area and the TOP judge took off points for 4 parts on a item. That's not in the book he said. TOP judge said i know the book is wrong the correct parts are ****.But we are to judge the way the standards say. Ok you are right ...but if my friend did not have the balls to challenge the TOP judge then the show car owner would of lost points. I said this a couple of times, I am a judge for A.A.C.A. and really enjoyed myself since 1974 .. Not all the time i got to judge "A"s but this one time i did at a GrandNational meet. We as a team was asked by a CHIEF JUDGE to shave some points on a coupe...38 POINTS! Said he's a old boy from back home and did alot for the club and .wanted him to go home with something.[award].So as a team we did .To this day i hate myself for letting it happen. Not only he recieved the GN. award but the Ford award too for that year. [holy shit] . I say never again . I'll walk off the field. And that's why i'll judge now and then and not as much as i did. Think it would turn off alot of people for becoming a judge. Thank's Mike for the break down... Nice day and i am off to a B.B.Q.

[peters180a/170b]

Dave you are up early ??? WELL GOOD Morning. You are right about Bruce B.400A. Very nice car. He Sold them all and i was looking at a BOATING book [LAKE BOATS] and there he was dockside with a super restored lake boat. All wood boat and looked like a gym floor.Wonder if that was OVER RESTORED? L.O.L.

[peters180a/170b]

Here is something no one said yet! Only THE fine point car owners might pick it up looking at their sheets. Guy's check your sheet on AREA 20... Windshield Wipers [100 POINTS] ! ??? JS. states 10 points.. typo..l.o.l.

[henry494]

Pete,
It's so very interesting how you spout off in your postings, then when specific replies and rebuttals are made to you, you simply ignore them and move on to a new post with the same old whining argument.
Maybe we are finally getting close to the end of this thread.

Dave Lopes

[Hank]

Pete,

What is a Chock rod 10-[score 9]? Your post. Should I have one? The judges were generous with that score! The Judging Standards Committee is looking for a new member. You should send them your resume. I am sure you could help them out if you were picked. I think we should get Henry to take a look at your car and give his 2 cents. I forgot he is gone just like this thread you started should be.

Hank

[peters180a/170b]

Choke rod... Hank... Why was the judges generous with that score? I don't know ,mint orginial Choke rod with no ware on rod ,correct cad. plating ,nice knob think might be the repro. choke rod grommet ?[They did not say?] They must also liked my mint n.o.s orginial accelerator cap,accelerator foot rest w/ orginial rubber ,or maybe the orginial steering column clamp rubber grommet ,mint steering wheel or spark+gas rods ,But did not like the finish on floor plates around the column [OR] over restored. Guess i lost points on ORGINIAL parts that was over restored and "some" repro parts[not many ,you can count them on 1 hand and have some fingers left over]. The end [ picture below for the people who nick pick!. ]

[Roadster62]

I've known Peter for well over 30 years, and seen his '30 Roadster and 180-A up close at AACA meets. I've never been a MARC or MAFCA member, but judged AACA National Meets for 30 years, and quit 4-5 years ago. I like looking at Fine Point cars but would never live long enough to restore one myself. Sounds like a Photo Record is needed for every part of a Fine Point to prove it is an original. I better find the funds to buy a lifetime A parts stash and make some money. There is an innertube with dust cover in the garage that should bring a days pay on eBay. Thanks for the education.

[Blessyouboys]

Originally Posted by Hank

Pete,
What is a Chock rod 10-[score 9]? ...
Hank

Not real sure, but it may attach to the nick picker.

[peters180a/170b]

From a email i recieved . 40+ years in the model "A" hobby... Well ,i read the whole thread. CONCLUSION .I will never entertain the idea of showing a fine point car as long as these self styled experts hold the hobby hostage. I find [@^%$ ] comments arrogant and self-serving. I respect his knowledge but disagree with his premise on "REPOP" parts.Bottom line unless you are a member of the "ELITE" club [judges and National office holders] and or have an unlimited amount of money to spend ,you do not belong in this judging class. If you do win a "HENRY" , then shut up and don't ask questions. I guess i am getting to be a grumpy ,old man but i remember when the hobby was not about money and power but the love of the Model "A" . My old friends from the old days have no intrest in what is currently going on with the national clubs.You are definately right.[#&$^] and others hold themselfs as "GODS" when it comes to judging matters. [It makes me ill] . A 40+ year man in both MAFCA/MARC clubs. And well respected.

[Fred]

Who ever wrote this ??; Hit the nail on the head !!. "IF YOU DO WIN A "HENRY" SHUT UP AND DON`T ASK ??..

[forever4]

Does anyone know when this thread will be released on DVD?

[peters180a/170b]

Vince , i gotta love ya. Maybe soon and then they can play it at the judges breakfast meeting... l.o.l.

[Ken Ehrenhofer]

For those who are wondering if, or why someone would get into fine point judging there is an another way to look at it. Using a few repro parts including valve stems and hub caps (A&L of course) it is possible and very easy to score in the 400 to 450 point range. This will give you a MARC of Excellence award and a beautiful car. If you desire to win a Henry it is also possible but some more money and time will have to be invested to find all the original parts. if you want to score in the 490 to 500 range then you must invest the time and money to reach that highly elevated score. The difficulty level is certainly there and is it possible? Yes, it is possible but extremely difficult and thus the award is most coveted.
I personally in most cars I build shoot for the MARC of Excellence and then drive and have fun. it is afforadable and within reach of most people. It gives you a beautiful Model A in the end. To those who want to win the Henry I say lets go for it as it is a wonderful goal to shoot for WOW! What a great hobby!!!!!
Ken

[MCHinson]

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Ken, I have no personal experience with MARC or MAFCA Judging or Meets. What are the requirements for the Henry award? I am curious about the MARC and MAFCA Judging System. Is there a written source of information to understand how the judging works? From just reading the Judging Standards, I really have no idea if I should consider Touring Class or Fine Point Judging if I ever attend a MARC or MAFCA Meet, but I am guessing that Touring Class would be more appropriate, as there are a few reproduction parts on my car.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Ken Ehrenhofer

For those who are wondering if, or why someone would get into fine point judging there is an another way to look at it. Using a few repro parts including valve stems and hub caps (A&L of course) it is possible and very easy to score in the 400 to 450 point range. This will give you a MARC of Excellence award and a beautiful car. If you desire to win a Henry it is also possible but some more money and time will have to be invested to find all the original parts. if you want to score in the 490 to 500 range then you must invest the time and money to reach that highly elevated score. The difficulty level is certainly there and is it possible? Yes, it is possible but extremely difficult and thus the award is most coveted.
I personally in most cars I build shoot for the MARC of Excellence and then drive and have fun. it is afforadable and within reach of most people. It gives you a beautiful Model A in the end. To those who want to win the Henry I say lets go for it as it is a wonderful goal to shoot for WOW! What a great hobby!!!!!
Ken

Ken, adding to what you stated above, from personal experience a 'well detailed' car restored with reproduction parts will only score in the 380's. The same caliber of car with very few repro parts but with original stems will likely score in the low 400's, --good enough for a MARC of Excellence but not good enough to get into the mid 400's from my experiences. Area 22 has a total of 35 points available and Doc will deduct ½ of that for repro tires, stems & caps, ...not counting wheel condition & finish. I am definitely not arguing or saying his scoring is wrong other than to say that in just this area alone one can plan on losing 15-20 points. Interior Trim & Plating are also areas that someone will take a huge hit on if reproduction items are found. Then if you take the other 20+/- areas and only subtract 1 point from each of those areas for minor deficiencies , you can see where this will add up to over 70-80 points being deducted. Using just a few repro parts in each of those areas and you can easily lose just 2-3 points per area and you will be under 400 points.

My point is not berate or rebuke the system, but for folks to truly understand that the system is really tougher than many might think.

Originally Posted by MCHinson

Ken, I have no personal experience with MARC or MAFCA Judging or Meets. What are the requirements for the Henry award? I am curious about the MARC and MAFCA Judging System. Is there a written source of information to understand how the judging works? From just reading the Judging Standards, I really have no idea if I should consider Touring Class or Fine Point Judging if I ever attend a MARC or MAFCA Meet, but I am guessing that Touring Class would be more appropriate, as there are a few reproduction parts on my car.

While I'm not Ken, I'll edit my post to include yours with my thoughts. I think the answer to your question can be likened to playing the game of baseball. You can read the rulebook until you have it memorized but you never really understand the mechanics of the game until you have actually played or participated in a game or two. I personally have had several cars compete in both fine-point and touring class judging and prefer the fine-point because I feel it is a tougher challenge. I think the experience all boils down to how honest you are with how authentic your vehicle is and what your goals are by competing. At French Lick this year, out of the 600 plus cars that were there, only 20 vehicles were showcased in fine-point making them the elite of the field. That is a very big honor IMO but to others it may not be such a big thing. Therefore, maybe it is like Yogi Bear says it best about fine-point judging; "This is the kind of thing you like if you like that kind of thing."

[Ken Ehrenhofer]

Watch for the next issue of the Model A News and you will see an article written by Bill Rauscher who built a 30 tudor using a Lebaron Bonney kit and had repro valve stems and hub caps (A&L of Course) and scored 432 points at Dallas. Of course a lot of things were right on the car and he won a MARC of Excellence. We helped him a lot but he was on a budget and could not afford expensive parts. So it is possible but you have to go original where ever you can but he had replacement hoses and fan belt etc.
Aftr Dallas he has driven the car ove 5000 miles and enjoys it every moment he can,
Ken

[Ken Ehrenhofer]

I would always advise people to go for Fine point judging and shoot for the level which they can afford while always trying to find those better parts as you go along. After competing in fine point and driving the car then enter into Touring for the fun and enjoyment of that venue. Remember a fresh restoration is not supposed to be allowed in Touring Class as Touring class is for cars that have been driven. There are repro parts on all cars as tires and many items must be replaced so you must do your homework and repalce with the most correct parts. This will take time and knowledge that can be gained by volunteering to judge at touring and fine point venus.
Study the judging standards and ask questions. If you do not know who to ask I would find an owner of a car just like mine who has won in fine point and e-mail him with all your questions. Of course, I will answer any questions you might have as i am always willing, as most members are, to help anyone in this great hobby,
I hope this helps,
Ken

[forever4]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Therefore, maybe it is like Yogi Bear says it best about fine-point judging; "This is the kind of thing you like if you like that kind of thing."

Yogi Bear? “Hey, Boo Boo! Let’s get us some pick-a-nick baskets!”

Was Yogi Bear a Nick-Picker, too?

[MCHinson]

My car is not a fresh restoration. It is a 1989 restoration. It is well maintained but I have driven it about two thousand miles. It has reproduction hoses, belt, tires, and a few other items. Unfortunately, I bought it after it was restored and had been sitting for quite a few years. I brought it back to the point that it received an AACA Senior Grand National in 2007, but from what I have read, it sounds like it would be more appropriate for touring class judging, as it is in fact, a car that I drive on tours. I try to maintain it as best as I can, but it is driven, it is not just a museum piece, it is a car that I drive.

Until reading this discussion, I would have never guessed that anybody would use an original set of hoses or an original belt that they have to take off before driving the car. I enjoy competition, but that does not quite sound like what I have in mind. I think that I would probably like to go to a MARC or MAFCA meet to find out more, but being from Southeastern North Carolina seems to be quite a handicap in that effort. Any meets planned in the Southeastern US anytime soon?

[Ken Ehrenhofer]

Touring class is for you, but remeber to enjoy and have fun! Touring class is for well restored and maintained cars that are driven and that is certainly you.
Actually this spring we have a non judging meet in Florida and our summer meet in San Diego next year in Wisconsin, Osh Kosh,

Fine point judging is to make the car as close as we can to how it cam off the assembly line and as the points go up so does the challenge,
Ken

[Fred]

I agee, It can be done.. Back in 1986 @ the first World Meet I entered my 8/22/28 49-A for the first time.. Going in I knew I had things wrong, The type of grain on the roof was wrong, A L/B kit & nothing done by Bill Sturm..I did have some hints & help from Capt. John Shepherd & Mrs.Bertha Haueter by looking @ her all original car..A few minor changes were made from that.. I did have a matching set of DILL stems & covers etc. restored by Doc.K...But get this, when he first saw my car he went OFF !! WHITE WALLS ??? &$%$$# & a few more... They are still on it today.. I did have many-many NOS parts, hoses, radiator, pedals, plugs, pop-out & keys, hub caps, speedometer, wires, etc.. I guess I can WHINNNE a little here as a NOS in the box MOTOR METER (before putting it on) was judged as a re-pop.. They never took the cap off to check the stem ??.. I did get either 454 or 64.. Next year in VA. the masters.. It still can be done, it takes time to find the parts & yes $$.. P.S. The car was painted in a two car garage with no exhaust fans poor lighting & had a DIRT floor..

[peters180a/170b]

What it gets down to is this : Lost % on dash [black paint in the 2 recess panels had a edge to them 30/31 style]. Speedometer [not orginial numbers %] ever with a n.o.s. one, they will dock you for yellowed white background.No one i know makes the correct numbers.? lost % on hood shelves [top sides] 1928/1929 style . I have a 1930? and does not have 1928/29 style that i know of ?? would be news to me. Could someone tell me where in the judging book it said cowl wire is all black? % was taken off .All i am reading in the judging standards is cowl wire Black with yellow tracer. Judge did make a note: Take off % cowl wire ,SHOULD BE ALL BLACK... Did i misread AREA 2 ??? And in all these sheets still there it no final Score. Do they do that? Does anyone remember what mine was???l/o/l/

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by MCHinson

I brought it back to the point that it received an AACA Senior Grand National in 2007, but from what I have read, it sounds like it would be more appropriate for touring class judging, as it is in fact, a car that I drive on tours. I try to maintain it as best as I can, but it is driven, it is not just a museum piece, it is a car that I drive.

Until reading this discussion, I would have never guessed that anybody would use an original set of hoses or an original belt that they have to take off before driving the car.

I enjoy competition, but that does not quite sound like what I have in mind. I think that I would probably like to go to a MARC or MAFCA meet to find out more, but being from Southeastern North Carolina seems to be quite a handicap in that effort. Any meets planned in the Southeastern US anytime soon?

Unfortunately this thread has been somewhat destructive to the hobby in my opinion. I think Ken spelled things out fairly well if you reread his first posts.

You seem to enjoy AACA meets. Do you ever expect to win Best of Show at an AACA meet? It sounds to me that if that was your goal OR expectation then you wouldn't be enjoying it so much. Why is it when folks talk about showing at MARC or MAFCA they suddenly think it's all or nothing and if I can't receive 500 points (perfect score) why bother? Again, please reread what Ken said about the scoring. An Award of Excellence is exactly what it says and deserves considerable respect.

Yep, there some of us that run that odd original stuff like hoses, fan belt, etc. However they aren't necessarily removed. My spark plugs, hoses and more have been on the car for 15 years including when I raced it in the pic above. I must admit the fan belt remains on the shelf when I'm driving the car.

As far as competing goes, I ONLY compete with myself. Showing the car is simply a venue to share with others. It's not unusual for me to display the car and not have it judged in venues where that is allowed.

There are a lot of ways to have fun. One way is to participate without specific expectations beyond enjoying the cars and the people. When you lose site of that it's probably time to stay home.

[forever4]

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

What it gets down to is this : Lost % on dash [black paint in the 2 recess panels had a edge to them 30/31 style]. Speedometer [not orginial numbers %] ever with a n.o.s. one, they will dock you for yellowed white background.No one i know makes the correct numbers.? lost % on hood shelves [top sides] 1928/1929 style . I have a 1930? and does not have 1928/29 style that i know of ?? would be news to me. Could someone tell me where in the judging book it said cowl wire is all black? % was taken off .All i am reading in the judging standards is cowl wire Black with yellow tracer. Judge did make a note: Take off % cowl wire ,SHOULD BE ALL BLACK... Did i misread AREA 2 ??? And in all these sheets still there it no final Score. Do they do that? Does anyone remember what mine was???l/o/l/

It just seems that you completely object to all the judging results and all points you lost.

No one has asked yet, so I will:
Were you expecting a perfect 500 point score?
It sounds like you were, and would be on fordbarn complaining even if you received 499.

[Mitch//pa]

i have 2 questions from the so called peanut gallery

1. are any of the responders to this thread a certified blue ribbon judge and who are they?

2. did anyone that responded to this thread actually take part in the judging of petes car?

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

i have 2 questions from the so called peanut gallery

1. are any of the responders to this thread a certified blue ribbon judge and who are they?

2. did anyone that responded to this thread actually take part in the judging of petes car?

YES I did judge the Undercarriage of Pete's Car...Your question please???

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by msmaron

YES I did judge the Undercarriage of Pete's Car...Your question please???

you answered my question's by responding that you are a certified judge and you took part in the judging of the undercarriage.

i would like to know if any more of the "responders to this thread" took part in this process of the judging of petes car and who are they?

[henry494]

Mitch,
Yes, I judged Pete's car at French Lick this summer. I am a certified Master Judge in both MARC and MAFCA and have been judging at national meets since at least 1989.

Dave Lopes

[Fred]

Why Does it REALLY MATTER ??. Pete knows who they are...

[Mitch//pa]

Originally Posted by Fred

Why Does it REALLY MATTER ??. Pete knows who they are...

these are questions that i am asking because i want to know. i dont know pete , never talked to pete, never saw petes car. i will be at macungie to meet him and see his car.

is there anyone else that are responders that took part of the judging process of petes car?

[MCHinson]

Marco,

I jumped in to attempt to learn something to hopefully make this discussion somewhat productive, even though I certainly understand why you feel that the discussion has not been helpful for the hobby. I am somewhat geographically handicapped in trying to learn more about MARC and MAFCA, even though I am a member of both. I did read Ken's response and think that it has helped me learn more about the subject.

A few years ago at a Charlotte AACA Meet, a MARC/MAFCA judge looked over my car. He suggested that I should consider entering my car in Blue Ribbon Judging. I have also put a few more hundred miles on the car since he looked at it, even though I have done my best to work on the car to avoid any signs of that driving.

After reading this discussion, I think that his suggestion may have not been quite right, as it sounds like Touring Class is more appropriate for my car. A Senior Grand National Car in AACA competition would have to have received at least 390 out of 400 points, but the AACA judging system is obviously much more forgiving as a correct looking reproduction part does not receive a deduction.

Also, there is no such thing as "Best of Show" at an AACA Meet. The AACA Judging system is not perfect, as I suspect can be said of all systems. Any system that has humans judging anything is going to have mistakes from time to time. One thing that is often debated about AACA Judging is that AACA does not reveal the numerical score to the competitor. The competitor can receive a highlighted blank judging sheet that shows areas where points were lost, but not a copy of the actual numerical score. Lots of people don't like this about AACA Judging, but I am sure that this is done to avoid ugly arguments such as this one. I am beginning to think that maybe that part of the AACA system is a good idea.

Hopefully, I will get a chance to attend a MARC of MAFCA Meet in the future. Hopefully, everybody here can learn something from this wide-ranging discussion. Hopefully, we can all remember that this is a hobby and it is supposed to be about the friendships developed and the fun experienced!

[HoarseWhisperer]

Hopefully, we can all remember that this is a hobby and it is supposed to be about the friendships developed and the fun experienced!

Well said!

I too, share the opinion that this thread and discussion is "somewhat destructive to the hobby".

While I would not feel discouraged in competing, I sure in hell would be discouraged in contributing to the hobby by judging, if I knew that my name and reputation was going to be dragged through the mud on an internet public forum.

Great Googley Moogley!

[peters180a/170b]

forever4 ,No way at 500 ! and NO way at even 495. When you get 5 judges [a couple much longer then Dave ] in the parking lot and given MORE TIME then the judges had to judge the cars on show day and all "agree" to 485 + [with one of them looking for more then 1 hour] because he was so glad i gave him that much time to see the car he heard so much about. It's funny how people dance around some of my questions.. Again answer the questions in the above post. Black cowl wire [good or bad call?] 1928/29 hood shelf % off? I have a 1930 [good or bad call?] Am i telling the truth about how it gets when you are over a certain point level or trying to get there and inform them with calls like the edge of the paint should not have a edge but should be airbrushed thin with no edge on a 30/31 dash panel. Are there speedometer decal numbers that will pass the judges OK when restoring a unit? ? That it's upto a judge to deside how many% should be deducted with only his gauge? 8 % of 10 % or 5% out of 10%. i mean what determine's that???[Is it a repro or not ,correct finish or not, to much paint or not enough, gloss or not enough gloss, dull or not dull enough,black or not black enough , its flat but not flat enough? answers please and don't dance. People should be informed on how it gets down and dirty and see if they want to go thru the judging process with their car..When a judge that did spend time judging my car calls me and ask my score total on the area he judged to make sure it was not changed.! What does that tell ya. He could not believe the low score for the car.And i was warned what to expect when i recieved my score..So do i or don't have a right to sound off and let others know what might or will happen to them after years of restoration work. By the way i am a Senior Master judge [27 National meets and 12 judging school classes] and started in 1976 for A.A.C.A. . that and 10 cents would not even get you on a subway! I even took the MAFCA test and passed back in early 80's and did not follow thru judging at a show. I know A.A.C.A. in no way the same as MARC/MAFCA but i do get to judge those cars too ! I am going with what some people who did judge my car and did not at the show all being judges and again all agree the score was "set" to low .

[glenn in camino]

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I've been a senior judge for 25 years and have competed with my cars at both MARC and MAFCA national meets. At Vancouver I've entered 2 cars, 1 in touring and 1 in blue ribbon. After reading most of this thread, considering the new 5000 point system, and the half points rule for actual or suspected repo parts, I think this might be my last national competition. I don't think the judging thing will be fun anymore. Plus, I only have a few friends who care about judging. My club, The Hangtown As, is all about touring in the beautiful Northern California foothills. Club tours have always been my favorite part of the Model A hobby anyway.
Glenn Johnson in Camino

[29RPU]

So to summarize:
1. Pete got screwed. So what? I simpathize (I really do as posted earlier), but it happenes everyday. Move on. Show it again. Fix it. Get it off of this forum and approach judges/powers that be in the clubs and get it figured out. I agree that playing this out here is damaging.

2. Fine point judging takes points off for marginally insignificant things. GREAT. It should. If you lower the standards it doesn't make anybodies car any better. If (and I meant if) a car with RP parts made a 500, where would a better car go from there?

3. I think fine point probably is out of most peoples grasp. Shouldn't it be? Think about any other hobby. I'm not buying a thoroughbread race horse anytime soon. Not getting that drag boat I've been wanting. I'm not going to enter to win tennis at wibulton (sp? whatever). Not participating in the next olympics. My point: it should be VERY DIFFICULT.

So, perfect judging will never happen. Every entry will never go home happy with their score, period. Ask the losers of the superbowl each year if they think things were fair. Somebody has to take 2nd and 3rd place.

Yawn, i'm really ready to watch this thread move to the rear.

Tom

[Roadster62]

For the record how many NEW Restorations, and NEW owners enter "Fine Point" competition each year? How does this number compair with the past 10-20 years. Is this why Street Rodding, and Traditional Hot Rods are more popular?

[Ron in Quincy]

As the farmer said " what good does it do to cry over spilled milk"

The only thing worry does is "WEIGHT THE WAGON DOWN"

Judges do the best they can, I agree with Marco's last post. Lets get back to enjoying our hobby, drive our A's, meet all the wonderful people, put your car in Blue Ribbon judging and reguardless of scoring be happy with what you receive but don't start threads like this one!!!!!!!!!!

Ron

[RockHillWill]

D--n, I guess I will have to learn to type faster. for the third time, by the time I get done typing, I have 'timed' out.

[Mitch//pa]

Dave lopes and mark maron being master senior marc and mafca judges that took part in the judging of petes car i have some questions to ask

1. is it ethical to get involved in an open air huge forum debate such as this about a vehicle that you personally judged ? were not talking about a backyard car show, this is about putting serious time and money into something and making it the top of the top.

2. are there some kind of guidelines for judges and how they conduct there work to prevent or resolve things like this from happening ?

3. even if the owner of the said car started this complaint was it proper to answer this in a public forum or should it have been handled more privatley between the involved parties?

4. i know there are other certified resident judges on this forum who have not responded at all to any of this. is that because they are following the proper code of ethics if there are any?

i am asking these questions because i dont know the answers but what i do know is if i were to pursue building a fine point car and this is the way things are handled no matter how it was initiated i am no longer interested. my feelings are, this was taken care of in the most unprofessional way and i personally am very dissapointed. i am in the process of starting another restoration and decided to deviate away from the pursuit of finding 80 year old shit and making it new and breaking my ass to get a henry award. what i am planning now is to open up the repop book and order away build a show car in less than a year and get an aaca junior and senior award.

if the answers above are that nothing unethical or immoral happened here and this was the way things like this get resolved than i am sorry for wasting space but just expressing how i was affected.

as i stated above my questions are directed to the judges involved

mitch (peanut gallery)

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Roadster62

For the record how many NEW Restorations, and NEW owners enter "Fine Point" competition each year? How does this number compair with the past 10-20 years. Is this why Street Rodding, and Traditional Hot Rods are more popular?

I know of at least four (4) NEW restorations & owners in fine-point judging this year because they were cars we restored at my shop. I also doubt you could accurately compare from 10-20 years ago due to present economy, timelines of an owner finishing his restoration, etc. however your final question is one that I feel I can answer very accurately! The answer is 'NO', --and here is why.

It is a totally different mindset and culture. Society today generally does not like to exactly follow rules or instruction, --and with a street rod or especially a "traditional rod" (which generally shares little w/ how they were traditionally built) type of vehicle, there is freedom for the builder to do it their way without accountability. This is what makes these type of cars "popular". Over the past few years I have hired a few, ...and interviewed many "hot rod builders" seeking employment who working for a period here have come to admit they cannot do quality restoration work. As an owner of a retoration shop AND a street rod shop, I can prove to you that it is MUCH easier to build a street rod than it is to accurately restore a vehicle.

Then when you factor in that most traditionalist rodders that I have/had a professional relationship with tend to be a tad "rebellious" with their craftsmanship as they tend to struggle with following rules. By that, they have difficulty being able to follow assembly protocol as they were established back when Ford had them built. These individuals tend to want to over-restore in some areas, shortcome in other areas, and generally complain about why the manufacturer did something a certain way. This is in no way meant as a slander towards them, or as belittling towards that culture but IMO it is a brutal reality. Some could even argue that this is why we see many Model A's that are touted as "restored" when in actuality their owner assembled them how they wanted their car instead of how it was originally assembled.

As far as admitting who judged Pete's vehicle, I too will admit that I judged his car at French Lick, (...and that I abstained from judging the four vehicles that my customers had entered).

.

[Rowdy]

I look at fine point judging much like bull riding, just because you stay on for 8 seconds does not mean you get all possible points and your score is tabulated by humans capable of making an error or 2 and subject to opinion. Rod

[Benson]

Originally Posted by RockHillWill

D--n, I guess I will have to learn to type faster. for the third time, by the time I get done typing, I have 'timed' out.

Will,

Same here sometimes.

Try this. Type your post in Word and then when you are done open "post Reply" and cut and paste it into the Ford Barn box.

[MCHinson]

Mitch,

I don't have a dog in this fight, but since the owner started the discussion in an open forum, it seems quite ethical and fair to me for the judges to respond in the open forum. It would not be fair to only hear one side of the debate/complaint.

Certainly, it would have been nicer for the entire issue to have been resolved privately, if there could ever really be a resolution, but once it was started publicly, it seems only fair to go to its conclusion publicly.

[forever4]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

Dave lopes and mark maron being master senior marc and mafca judges that took part in the judging of petes car i have some questions to ask

1. is it ethical to get involved in an open air huge forum debate such as this about a vehicle that you personally judged ? were not talking about a backyard car show, this is about putting serious time and money into something and making it the top of the top.

2. are there some kind of guidelines for judges and how they conduct there work to prevent or resolve things like this from happening ?

3. even if the owner of the said car started this complaint was it proper to answer this in a public forum or should it have been handled more privatley between the involved parties?

4. i know there are other certified resident judges on this forum who have not responded at all to any of this. is that because they are following the proper code of ethics if there are any?

i am asking these questions because i dont know the answers but what i do know is if i were to pursue building a fine point car and this is the way things are handled no matter how it was initiated i am no longer interested. my feelings are, this was taken care of in the most unprofessional way and i personally am very dissapointed. i am in the process of starting another restoration and decided to deviate away from the pursuit of finding 80 year old shit and making it new and breaking my ass to get a henry award. what i am planning now is to open up the repop book and order away build a show car in less than a year and get an aaca junior and senior award.

if the answers above are that nothing unethical or immoral happened here and this was the way things like this get resolved than i am sorry for wasting space but just expressing how i was affected.

as i stated above my questions are directed to the judges involved

mitch (peanut gallery)

I am not a judge involved, but because you choose to post this publicly on a public forum, then it is also directed to me and everyone else, and I will choose to respond again also.

There is no issue and nothing to resolve here on fordbarn.
Pete's complaints have nothing to do with fordbarn, and it has been his continued choice to air his complaints publicly here, leaving it open for everyone to respond in what ever fashion they choose.
There is nothing improper or unethical about it.
It is all effectively just water cooler BS.

In actual fact, Pete did not get screwed as another post claimed.
Pete had the third highest point car of the meet, and he received the coveted Henry.
It is all sour grapes and his dissatisfaction and blame the he didn't get more.
His behavior is the improper part of the whole thread, IMO.

I am also a member of the peanut gallery, and have enjoyed the entertainment value of this thread immensely.
I still don't understand what prompted the discussion on fordbarn though.

[Frank Miller]

Please let me offer up an analogy here. Millions of people watched Armando Galarraga pitch a perfect game. One did not. So for the record he did not pitch a perfect game. But then how many balls and strikes were called wrong? They are subjective also. But no one stops playing, watching or umpiring. Everyone tries their best and it is not always what they expect but they go back. It would be funny to build a time machine and bring back a brand new Model A and watch it score less than 450 points.

I will never be in fine point judging but enjoy learning all the things that go into building a car like this. It makes it harder but we are lucky to have the amount of research and information that exists for the Model A. Even if someone is in touring class they will have a car that is restored just a little bit better because of the fine point cars.

And as Armando Galarraga taught us, taking the decision as part of the game earned a lot of respect. The perfect game never pitched will be well remembered.

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by Mitch//pa

judges that took part in the judging of petes car i have some questions to ask

1. is it ethical to get involved in an open air huge forum debate such as this about a vehicle that you personally judged ? were not talking about a backyard car show, this is about putting serious time and money into something and making it the top of the top.

2. are there some kind of guidelines for judges and how they conduct there work to prevent or resolve things like this from happening ?

3. even if the owner of the said car started this complaint was it proper to answer this in a public forum or should it have been handled more privatley between the involved parties?

4. i know there are other certified resident judges on this forum who have not responded at all to any of this. is that because they are following the proper code of ethics if there are any?

i am asking these questions because i don't know the answers but what i do know is if i were to pursue building a fine point car and this is the way things are handled no matter how it was initiated i am no longer interested. my feelings are, this was taken care of in the most unprofessional way and i personally am very disappointing. i am in the process of starting another restoration and decided to deviate away from the pursuit of finding 80 year old shit and making it new and breaking my ass to get a Henry award. what i am planning now is to open up the repop book and order away build a show car in less than a year and get an aaca junior and senior award.

if the answers above are that nothing unethical or immoral happened here and this was the way things like this get resolved than i am sorry for wasting space but just expressing how i was affected.

as i stated above my questions are directed to the judges involved

mitch (peanut gallery)

Mitch To Respond to your question:
1. is it ethical to get involved in an open air huge forum debate such as this about a vehicle that you personally judged ? were not talking about a backyard car show, this is about putting serious time and money into something and making it the top of the top.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with asking a question, asking in my opinion brings education, and education brings better restorations and allows more to get involved because they understand the process and what is involved to achieve their goal. Now Personlly I do believe the queries should have been asked in private emails.

2. are there some kind of guidelines for judges and how they conduct there work to prevent or resolve things like this from happening ?

First things like what from happening. What you are reading is an individual that has a beautiful car and choose to air his question and grievances in an open air forum,, How can we prevent that?

3. even if the owner of the said car started this complaint was it proper to answer this in a public forum or should it have been handled more privately between the involved parties?

That again is a matter of opinion, and my opinion is YES..

i am asking these questions because i don't know the answers but what i do know is if i were to pursue building a fine point car and this is the way things are handled no matter how it was initiated i am no longer interested. my feelings are, this was taken care of in the most unprofessional way and i personally am very disappointing. i am in the process of starting another restoration and decided to deviate away from the pursuit of finding 80 year old shit and making it new and breaking my ass to get a Henry award. what i am planning now is to open up the repop book and order away build a show car in less than a year and get an aaca junior and senior award.

That is the mistake of this feed. Nothing unethical happened here, a person will a beautiful car was questioning his score, how he did it might not have been the correct way to do it, airing ones grievances and negative comments don't help any situation. We all need to take a deep breath, sit back and relax and end this. We lost a great member of our hobby this week and why are we carrying on like this about this person who is complaing about his Henry,
This hobby is too great to be doing this in this feed. PLEASE don't shy away from Fine Point, it is a wonderful part of our hobby and very enjoyable part. The statement you say of finding 80 year old "shit" is what we love, it is the hunt that makes this so fun and the restoration of the fine great part, Just because one person has a gripe why would YOU as an individual allow another persons opinion deter YOU from doing what you want? Breaking your "ASS" to make a Henry, who said you had to go to that level. Please note that the intention of Fine Point judging is NOT to create a Henry for each and every person, but to replicate as close as possible the car that came of the assembly line and to ENJOY doing it every step of the way. This feed got way way out of hand and out of line and i am sorry to hear you feel that way but you should really re consider your thoughts and your goals and be sure to read the next issue of Model A Restores, Bill Raucher built a MARC of Excellence with 432 point in Dallas for approx 16K.. He did not kill himself, he used repo (A&L) parts and original,.but you know what HE HAD A BALL and has a fantastic car and Kudos to him. He did it by himself and now has over 5000 miles on it. That is this hobby, to restore, drive, enjoy and part of it is restoration. Don't allow some bad apples in a basket ruin what you wanted to do, there are other here that will drop it all to lend a hand, phone call, email or what ever it takes. Good luck to you and I hope your restoration goes well

Mark
IMHO

[Roadster62]

"As far as admitting who judged Pete's vehicle, I too will admit that I judged his car at French Lick, (...and that I abstained from judging the four vehicles that my customers had entered)." above quote from Brent.

Brent, I think that is the correct thing to do, not judge a car you or your shop restored, HOWEVER, whoever replaced you would in my opinion judged differently. How can the totals of all the cars in competition be considered consistant if there are different judges coming in and out of the team? After 30 years of AACA Judging I know that the team starts with and ends with the same members and they judge every car in the assigned class.

[henry494]

Readers of this thread,

I wish I had made this suggestion in my very first response to Pete. I strongly suggest that everyone read the "Introduction" and "Judging the Model A," the first two sections of "Model A Judging Standards and Restoration Guidelines." Reading that would have answered many questions and concerns presented through this thread. If you haven't read it, or haven't read it in quite some time, please do so.


Mitch,

Since you directed your questions to Mark and I, as well as any other people who judged Pete's car at French Lick, I will respond. However, I have pretty much run out of energy with this thread and Pete's continued whining over and over. Not knowing you, but trying to think about how people can look at this from different points of view, I think you ask some fair questions.

Please read Forever4's response and Mark's response to you, as I doubt I could say it any better. I will add my two cents anyway, but I'm going to keep it brief because these two gentlemen said it so well in their responses.

My responses to your questions and comments in blue.

Dave Lopes


"1. is it ethical to get involved in an open air huge forum debate such as this about a vehicle that you personally judged ? were not talking about a backyard car show, this is about putting serious time and money into something and making it the top of the top."

First, I will make a defensive comment by writing that I do not believe I have done anything unethical in any way, shape, or form. If I have, someone needs to point that out to me.
My responses to Pete were directed at his questioning of the ethics of the judges, the quality of the judging process, and his general bashing of the judging his car received at French Lick.
My primary reason for responding to Pete's whining was so that readers would NOT take his comments and believe that the MARC or MAFCA judging at national meets is anything but ethical and fair. I know from my own personal experience that it is such.
So, to directly answer your question, YES, I do believe it was ethical to stand up to Pete's negative comments about the judging.

"2. are there some kind of guidelines for judges and how they conduct there work to prevent or resolve things like this from happening ?"

Yes. Those guidelines are in the front of "Model A Judging Standards and Restoration Guidelines," the section titled, "Judging the Model A," from which I quoted to Pete about the scoring reproduction parts.

"3. even if the owner of the said car started this complaint was it proper to answer this in a public forum or should it have been handled more privatley between the involved parties?"

As indicated above, my reason to respond to Pete's complaints publicly was to defend the integrity of the judging process in National Model A Blue Ribbon judging. Again, I do not want readers to have a skewed image of what goes on during judging, which is exactly what many have gained by reading Pete's postings. That's such a shame. I agree with Marco's post that this thread has likely done damage to our hobby. My true intent is to minimize that damage, not further it!
At this point, I must quote from the Judging Standards, page 13, "Strive to encourage others in their restoration and in the betterment ofthe hobby." Do Pete's posts do anything to encourage others? It is my intention in my posts to offset the damage Pete's negativity has done.

"4. i know there are other certified resident judges on this forum who have not responded at all to any of this. is that because they are following the proper code of ethics if there are any?"

There is no code of ethics that prohibit the activity we have engaged in on this forum. Read the Standards and read the clubs' bylaws.
Other judges may have decided to not get involved because it takes so much time and energy, and opens a person up to so many negative things. You should read some of the e-mails! However, the negative e-mails I received are far outweighed by the positive ones.

"i am asking these questions because i don't know the answers but what i do know is if i were to pursue building a fine point car and this is the way things are handled no matter how it was initiated i am no longer interested. my feelings are, this was taken care of in the most unprofessional way and i personally am very disappointing. i am in the process of starting another restoration and decided to deviate away from the pursuit of finding 80 year old shit and making it new and breaking my ass to get a Henry award. what i am planning now is to open up the repop book and order away build a show car in less than a year and get an aaca junior and senior award."

I'm not sure what you mean by, "...this is the way things are handled..." To that, I will repeat by writing that I am simply defending the judging process of both National clubs against Pete's negative comments that he could have aired with the Judging Standards Committee and/or the Chief Judge of the meet. Since he chose to air it publicly, I chose to defend the judges and the judging process, that Pete does not even participate in. I hope that my postings have preserved the desire of some people to continue on their journey of building a fine-point car. It appears that Pete succeeded in turing some people away from doing that. Again, what a shame.

if the answers above are that nothing unethical or immoral happened here and this was the way things like this get resolved than i am sorry for wasting space but just expressing how i was affected.

as i stated above my questions are directed to the judges involved

mitch (peanut gallery)

[peters180a/170b]

Dave , Dave ,Dave... Do Pete's post do anything to encourage other's? Just passing information on Fine point judging [the high's and the LOW'S]. It is my intention in my post to off set the damage Pete's negativity had done.. Hummmmm let me think ? Dave, the DAMAGE has been going on for YEARS with the nick picking judging. Back even before the Mass, MAFCA meet where they had to drag cars from tour class to make it look good on how many cars came out to be judged in fine point judging!! Hello i was there... 1 car did not even have a set of tools to show[ a fordor].Damage ,was started a long time ago... THESE "SELF STYLED EXPERTS HOLD THE HOBBY HOSTAGE.That came from a man with double the years you have in both clubs and in the front row of things. And still waiting for my questions to be answered... Stop the tango ...I was asked twice now to judge the MARC meet in 2011 ??? Only if you get to judge touring class...

[forever4]

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

Dave, the DAMAGE has been going on for YEARS with the nick picking judging.

Pete,
What exactly do you think MARC/MAFCA judging and judging standards is?
It is all about authenticity and attention to detail, which you obviously adhered to at a very high level to make your achievement, so why do you also refer to it in a negative manner as "nick-picking"?

That 'nick-picking judging' is exactly what distinguished your car from the others, got you a Henry, and prevented another 15 guys behind you from also getting a Henry.

You think they have no questions about their own score sheets?
Or that their scores were spot-on, but you got pimped?

I imagine there might be some people behind you in fine point who also might feel there were some improper calls made on their cars, and who might even feel they missed out on a Henry unjustly.
I don't hear them complaining about everything here on fordbarn.

I have no doubt that all the fine point cars were exceptional in their own right, so maybe we should just dumb down the standards and judging, and award full points to everyone for repro parts and shiny paint and issue people's choice awards like the cruise night at the local Big Boy Restaurants.

For that matter, we could just award ribbons and Henrys based on how much money was spent on a restoration, or spent on a quail, or on a fan belt, or which name-brand guru did the paint, or upholstery, or plating, or tire valve hardware, or wood graining, or spark plugs, or.....

[1931 flamingo]

Pete: I sure hope you score as high on aug 7th as you did at the show that has created 6 pages (screens) of whining. JMO
Paul in CT

[PDXCougfan]

As an outsider looking in (and someone new to this hobby) I have two observations.

1) Both sides are being a little too defensive. Calling someone a whiner (very defensive) probably didnt help anything, and really made me think if i wanted to have my roadster pickup judged next fall. I didnt take his first post as a whine at all.. just trying to find out where he went wrong after alot of work. It went downhill from there.

2) From my opinion, as long as the judging was uniform across the entire event... it doesnt really matter what the score is as the cars are being judged to the same standards. If they take 1/2 points for repro's.... as long as its the same across all cars... it should be fine.

3) Everyone needs to grab a beer from the fridge and toast one.
Just my humble opinion looking in.

[peters180a/170b]

1931 flamingo, No scoring on Aug. 7 [its a get together fun meet].Unless i am wrong? I am going with the 180A better off sitting with a bunch of Model" A" guy's with their cars and shooting the stories ,,then looking at the car home.Is that whats it's all about [car meetings and friends].? Been doing it back since 1976 at this meet. AND since no answer from the west side of the world on my questions i hope help will be at this meet.

[peters180a/170b]

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To Forever4 , {"NICK PICKING"] to me is putting down on a judging sheet the front fenders serrations are "NOT DEEP ENOUGH". [[they are there and you can feel them on perfect fenders w/ 1 front fender well ]] or there is a" DROP OF OIL ON 1 SHOCK" "O" my God the world is coming to a end. "A" DROP".[how big was this DROP?its still there! And the front hood top rivet on hinge TOO MUCH PAINT ,..Thats what i call nick picking [looking for anything to take off. ]Like i have been saying [When i am a team captain i tell my team to take a walk around the car and view the whole car first and see how much time and work went into the WHOLE car. That nick picking adds up at the end and can knock someone out of the box with a very nice car over all..And i am "NOT just speaking for myself! P.S ,,there will be a deluxe roadster that was at the French Lick with a few complaining calls too to follow.A mint ORGINIAL restored dash light marked as a [REPRO] and lost points on Top and seats.. Just pulled it out from you know who's shop. Someone just did not like his work on 2 -180A's and 2- 68C's and Deluxe Roadster .But at least it was across the board!

[Fred]

Pete, RESTORE A CHEVY !!!...

[peters180a/170b]

Only if it's a 1932 Model ! FRED >>>> Last week on someones front lawn a 1932 PLYMONTH PB roadster , looks like it was restored maybe early 70's. Solid body , very nice chassis ,wheels and hub caps super , need come chrome redone and some paint cracking near rumble. $38,000 or best offer. A very nice looking car. think it has 65 horse power?

[Fred]

Oh, I know, You can`t find one of them either !!..

[Fred]

You mean you did not check for A good original fan belt & original valve stem covers ??

[peters180a/170b]

That type of Judging "ONLY" on Model "A" Fords. ! I spoke to Robert G. last nite [owner of a 1931 Deluxe Roadster] judged at the French Lick. Boy, not only on a MINT Orginial restored dash light judged as a repro [i should know Doug B. had 6 done at 1 time and i sent out the plating on them to Pauls Chrome] and 1 is on my car too. His top got destroyed on points. Everyone go docked on rugs too,.He re-did his wheels and was marked Over Restored [Someone out there has no idea working with the new paints,,,they flow nice and less work ] The weld marks were there on all wheels.Sounds to me a witch hunt took place ,As 1 judge put it [Its time do redue the standards in some area] And that might have something to do with the poor attendance in FINE POINT JUDGING. I know its far back but for those who have The Restorer Mag.Sept. / Oct. 1988 Please look at the group of winners[a nice size of Happy Guy's]. When the New Standards were set the decline in cars started .1 car set the bar and not even Bill S. as long as his tops were the Best ,that 1 car set the bar. Bill S. said, i don't know how he got the trim that thin and on the top but i can not do it. So everyone who follows with a great restoration on a car gets destroyed by a very small group of judges.Think he said out west somewhere? rugs too! but they do it across the board. EVERYONE from now till the cows come home.That's another reason why both clubs will never get together in peace. In our life time. And that's sad for the members who belong to both clubs as i do.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Pete, I have re-read this entire thread on several different days now just trying to re-analyze what all is being said. What I am not sure of is whether you really are mad, --or whether the way you write just makes it appear that way however let me offer perspective from a different point of view.

I'm sure it is no secret that my shop restored 4 cars that were in fine-point judging at that show, so I have pretty thorough knowledge of the quality on all four of those vehicles. IMO there were some mistakes made in the judging on all four vehicles. The truck we did that won the Ray Mathews award was incorrectly scored as having a powdercoated frame. The top that was done by Bill Sturm also received what I deemed as a hefty deduction for poor workmanship. There were some other areas that were hit that I feel errors were made but the owner & I have discussed those and we know what reality is. On a Roadster that I had in the show, they determined the color of the engine was incorrect however it is the exact same paint (color & mix) that we used on the other 3 vehicles in the show of which there were no deductions. On yet another vehicle, the team determined the frame was twisted and wrote that on the sheet yet the car owner was here and assisted us when the frame was initially straightened and re-rivited. He knows the frame is not twisted. And, we too were gigged for having some repro parts that were actually restored original parts. I say all of this to help you understand that the process did not solely single you out!

As I have spoken with each of my customers regarding how they felt about the overall outcome (mistakes & all), all four of my customers appear to have the opinion they are pleased with the outcome (as am I) and all of us feel it was an honor to even be a part of the process. Basically the actual "score number" was moot to each of them because they are looking at the overall picture and their priorities are different because to them, their vehicle is the true prize. With THAT mindset, let's look at the overall picture as I feel it pertains to you and your car.

1) You restored a car exactly how you wanted to build it.

2) You, under your own free will, chose to enter it in a format at an event and agreed to have it critiqued or evaluated where there was no prize money or financial compensation at stake. In other words, ...for fun only.

3) A group of your peers (fellow hobbyist) who are non-paid volunteers came together at each of their own expense to offer their evaluation on your car. In other words, ...giving you something for free.

So, in a nutshell, these non-professional, non-paid individuals (judges) worked diligently preparing and offering you free advise and their 'solicited-by-you' opinion on what they felt you should do to make your car a little bit better. If these were professional consultants for which you were financially compensating them for their time and earned knowledge, then maybe you might have a valid reason to be upset with them if they made a mistake? If you don't feel like their opinion is valid, then don't heed their advise, ...pure & simple! Many of us are viewing their efforts differently and thus I choose to appreciate all their time and efforts, ...and while I realize there were some mistakes made, I/we now can take their opinions and if we choose to do so, we can make appropriate corrections to the areas which there were problems to make the vehicle more accurate. Just like the free advise given here on Fordbarn, some of it may be in error, or different in what we perceive as being correct yet we generally do not get upset and slander the individual(s) that meant no harm when they offered their opinion for free on how to fix something. Pete, am I wrong or off-base in suggesting you do the same?

.

[30Tudor]

Very interesting and heated discussion. For one it has convinced me that I never ever want to get involved with fine point judging as it seems to be highly contraversial and just not a fun thing.

The following comment definately is not speaking specifically to the particular situation being discussed here but say say we use judging figure skating or a dance competition as a great example. I'm wondering a what point a judge(s) would get so frustrated with the ridicule from a particular participant on the judging process and discrediting their competence as a judge that they would eventually just decide to opt out of any judging related to that participant? In athletics, I believe a participant sanction would likely apply due to poor sportsmanship.

[msmaron]

Very very very well said Brent..I commend you for this great comment you have written.

30 Tudor.. DO NOT loose focus of what this hobby is all about...FUN FUN FUN and you are allowing 1 person and their opinion to dissuade you from a great part of it.. Fine Point Judging, BEFORE you make a hastily decision on not wanting to get involved, I implore you TOO GET INVOLVED by Judging and learning the judging process and what is involved and the learning process of this great hobby. I am sure you will then agree that Fine Point judging, the hunt, the work and the education are well worth the time and the effort you put forth. Many of us,,,, very very many of us are here to help you reach your goal and work with you. Though it may not be perfect it is part of our great hobby. I look forward to seeing you at San Diego and in the judging pool

Best of luck to you

[RockHillWill]

The taller the ladder the more spectacular the view. It seems inappropritae to ask folks to shorten the ladder just so you might be able to tell folks you reached the top. If you are afraid of heights stay on the ground, but don't fault those with the courage to climb and those who hold the ladder firmly. Just a thought!

[forever4]

Originally Posted by RockHillWill

The taller the ladder the more spectacular the view. It seems inappropritae to ask folks to shorten the ladder just so you might be able to tell folks you reached the top. If you are afraid of heights stay on the ground, but don't fault those with the courage to climb and those who hold the ladder firmly. Just a thought!

I generally don't don't like to add "me too" posts, but I gotta say, Will, you said it exactly right. Perfect summary!

[Timothy Kelly]

Will:

I've been looking for one of those tall ladders...but haven't been able to locate one that's just right. Have you any suggestions as to where I might find for such a thing?

Cheers



Timothy

ps - I measured my fuel line and find that it's about 70 feet short; I could probably use some help in this area as well

[peters180a/170b]

The tallest ladder i have is 40 feet. Mr.Will let me ask you something.. You have worked with Bill Sturm on your pickup [right] .? Why? He's the "BEST" and knows this stuff[right] 40 years in the business and one would saying if you want to win a Henry award you need Bills work to get there. I see you at Hershey with Bill Sturm going over you next restoration ["A" truck] ,notes ,bluepeints ,and all ..Why? HE knows his stuff and he is the "BEST" to do the job/ [right?] .I found out the hard way with many trips back and forth to Bills shop. My car in no way was going to leave his shop unless it was finished by him and he was Happy with his job .Now Knowing Bill and the work he has done all these years ,time and time again most if not all cars that win the Henry the top and Upholstery was done by Bill.[maybe 4 or 5] did not. Over how many cars?? So for one to say [poor workmanship or top is not radius on a roadster -Robert G.[which Bill said nothing was wrong with that top!] material which is "NOT AVAILABLE" "NON ACCESSIBLE" NON OBTAINABLE" will lose points or % because of wrong material was used -but Bill used the closest material available . And has passed years now for MARC/MAFCA meets before -now all of a sudden ["5"] ,FIVE ,"V" open cars in one meet which Bill Sturm did the work- with a year or less of a full restoration that ALL cars have a problem?? Would you ask yourself IS IT BILL STURM or the Judges??? Working with Bill for 6 months on my car alone i'll put my money on Bill!!! And i think you would too!

[peters180a/170b]

Now for Brent , I JUDGE not MARC/MAFCA but A.A.C.A. .. They have more then 1 meet per year. I have judged 2 or 3 time per year in the past[sometimes]. I JUDGE FOR FREE ! It cost me $$$$. And i JUDGE FOR FREE. Judges breakfast cost is $7.00 and you must attend. Gas to get to and from ,tolls,time off work,food,Hotel, and i do it because i ENJOY IT!. And you do pay membership dues too. If you restore a car that took you 7 years to do from every nut ,bolt, washer ,cotter pin ,,you will know more about YOUR car then the judges that are judging your car. At least most of them! So for some judges to tell you- you have certain parts that are repro [which are not-dash light on one car and some parts on my rear fenders?] or a incorrect wire code or a tiny drip on a shock and or too much paint on a rivet head. I think you would have questions on who is judging your car after all that time you spent on it. Should they? EVEN FOR FREE? You know what they say about FREE Advise ...You think i am doing this for myself? I am not one to SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP!. Just because i won the Henry! There's more then me. Its i got the grommets to say something about it. And for years you here there's a thing with 1 group of judges and another group E/W [you know a tit for tat thing] You pick on one of our cars and will get even at another meet. Mean while some of us get caught in the middle [like a ping pong ball] and pay a price.Some day you have time call me and i'll spell it out for ya, names and all... I will not post that crap here on Fordbarn. Happy Birthday Henry [see what you started] l.o.l.

[Fred]

Pete; Like it has been said here before, "MANY TIMES OVER" If you don`t like the way the corrent judges are doing it, GET INVOLVED & start judging @ NATIONAL MARC & MAFCA MEETS.. Doing AACA does not mean a thing..

[peters180a/170b]

Fred , Could you feel right having your car being judge[ and you don't judge your car you stand to the side] but yet you get to judge every car that you are going against??? I am sorry but ,do you know how many judges judged my car and there cars were parked next to mine?? ALL in one same class...Sorry that should not be ! You have a car being judged you should not be a judge. As far as MARC/MAFCA meets and A.A.C.A. meets and locale too some of us still must go to work.MARC/MAFCA meets gets dragged in a whole week .A.A.C.A. your done in sometimes 1 day! I have judged Hershey and show my car all in 1 day [sometimes] Canadaigua A.A.C.A. meet ,drove up Friday nite ,took a knap for 5 hours, woke up ,,put the car on the show field at 8:00 a.m. ,,off at 4:30 and home at 11:30 that nite. And i ask you what will happen if i get involved and start judging MARC/MAFCA meets??? I see a Past President,judging standard comm. 40+ member of MARC/MAFCA /judging at A.A.C.A. now and not MARC/MAFCA meets??? WHY?? I know he has the time and the money forsure...He is P.O about something .And i know of some well known judges in one of the clubs will not judge at the other club meet. Will not even cross the street from his house if it was that close to his home..WHY? And you want me to get INVOLVED in something like that>> sorry no way..

[billwill]

Originally Posted by Blessyouboys

What is a 'nick picker'?

Apain in A

[Fred]

Pete, In the first of your last post, BEEN down that road; GET OVER IT!! I DID.. BEST for you is either take OFF all the know RE-POP junk & the after market stuff that you admit to having on the car or dont show it in fine point.. GO buy the Plymouth you saw & show it in & stay in the AACA & drop out of both MODEL A CLUBS as you have done enough damage...

[Mitch//pa]

[QUOTE=peters180a/170b;53864] Could you feel right having your car being judge[ and you don't judge your car you stand to the side] but yet you get to judge every car that you are going against??? I am sorry but ,do you know how many judges judged my car and there cars were parked next to mine?? ALL in one same class...Sorry that should not be ! You have a car being judged you should not be a judge.)

that i agree with 100% that falls into the bad ethics category i was talking about.

[Fred]

Oh, is this the FIRST year its been done that way ??. You knew full well going in how it was done & has been... Dont like it, Dont go, Or get involved & change it !!

[peters180a/170b]

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Fred ,as many have already done, dropped out! Find a buyer for my Phaeton [CASH] comes with a n.o.s. wire harness and Terminal box to cutout wire too and extra hard to find 180A parts then all you need is a set of orginial hoses,, and i'll have that rare 1932 Plymonth roadster in my driveway the next day or afternoon as soon as when i have the CASH in hand.!!!!!!!!!! But i am keeping the 170B.

[Fred]

Dropped out, only because of "YOUR TO YOUR WHINNING" BY-BY....

[forever4]

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

.....And i ask you what will happen if i get involved and start judging MARC/MAFCA meets??? .....

..... And you want me to get INVOLVED in something like that>> sorry no way..

You did get involved.
You built an excellent car.
You showed it in Fine Point at the MARC National in French Lick.
You received the third highest score at the National Meet.
You received the coveted Henry award.

And subsequent to that, you also have been incessantly making whine out of sour grapes on fordbarn, complaining about the scoring you received, making allegations that the judges and judging was biased (against you), and generally spitting in the eye of all of your fellow enthusiasts who took the time and consideration to judge your car, as you chose to build it.

At this point, is there anyone left reading this thread who is appreciative you brought your car to the National, or wants to see you bring another in the future?

Is there anyone who really would want you involved in MARC/MAFCA judging as a fine point judge with the views and attitudes you have expressed in this thread?

[Fred]

No-No & NO !!..

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

Could you feel right having your car being judge[ and you don't judge your car you stand to the side] but yet you get to judge every car that you are going against??? I am sorry but ,do you know how many judges judged my car and there cars were parked next to mine?? ALL in one same class...Sorry that should not be ! You have a car being judged you should not be a judge.

I don't know how many years MARC did this, but in 2005 they REQUIRED all entrants to participate in the judging. In many ways it was a pain in the rear because it turned a seven hour day into a nine hour day. However I spoke with several of those entrants (and now judges) at the end of the day and ALL I heard was praise for the system and ethics displayed. They had absolutely no idea what everyone went through to make it work until they were FORCED to participate in the process. The bottom line is 99% of the bitching is from those that stand outside and look in through the window.

There is one other point I'd like to make based on my experience. Generally (there are a few exceptions), the judges on the floor are only as good as a car they have restored. Personally I DO NOT want to show without those restorers on the judging floor.

[peters180a/170b]

AT pg. 7 with 129 threads and not holding at 4,298 views i take it some people appreciate of my [ whining as you put it] . NO, i have not involved myself in MARC/MAFCA judging as a judge. But involved in having 2 cars judged in both clubs. YES, i am told i built a excellent car [ correction, Henry did,, i just restored it back as close as possible correctly].YES it was at the French Lick for fine point judging and i THANK Very much the company i hung out with [ fun,fun,fun] and still having fun ,fun,fun.[some of them are having fun reading this thread].Yes ,third highest score [which some people still have questions about on a low score" by long time judges",, thats what started this thread].YES i did take the Henry but that does not mean [SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP as one judge said to me NOT TO DO!]. Last nite over the phone i was again asked by another judge to become a judge[we need you to judge] and with your attitude! That's makes 3 judges this week as more are told to read what's going on here on the barn. It's a wakeup call to some. Shake the good old boys "group"" club" up.

[peters180a/170b]

Marco , At this time again i thank you for "ALL" the fine help over the "YEARS" with the 180A [It been FUN]. BUT and i say BUT YOU and YOUR Roadster set the standards to the highest judging bar! Example , you are the "ONLY" ONE that i was told could "CORRECTLY" install the TRIM,EDGE BINBING on a top for roadster's and Deluxe Phaeton.40+ years Bill S. will say [I DON'T KNOW HOW Marco did it?].Its the same material on the seats and he got it thin and able to work with it on the top edge. So every D. Roadster /D.Phaeton. will get a [Deduction from 1 club] and accept by the other club who respects Bill S. top /upholstery with 40+years of work as the best one can do.Also ALL 180A's as a standard item was the top booth. The material does not exist ![Deduction from 1 club ,,same club as first Deduction] This means a person Restoring a D.Roadster/D.Phaeton will be accepted by one group of judges and not by another. Some material will always get a Deduction no matter what you can come up with and as close as one can get .So before i drive out of my trailer to a National MARC/MAFCA meet i am behind the 8 ball on points with this 1 club group? Guess the best one can do is not good enough .As a few judges had said The bar was set to high to compete and get that better view on the top of that ladder! You know Marco ,how many Deluxe cars got to the top compared to standard models. Not many! its easy to restore a fine point car if you work with 28/29 tudors ,coupes,roadsters.

[ken ct]

AMEN to all this whineing about a $5 trophy,get a life please. ken ct a V8er

[Roadster62]

Peter, The last sentance in your last post was most interesting. IF you pick the right year and body style you get a better chance of a PERFECT SCORE? Has this ever happened, if so what was the car. As a former AACA Judge who quit after 30 years of it I find this thread to be a great read.

[msmaron]

Originally Posted by forever4

You did get involved.
You built an excellent car.
You showed it in Fine Point at the MARC National in French Lick.
You received the third highest score at the National Meet.
You received the coveted Henry award!!!!!!!!!.

To be honest i don't think 1 person "Appreciates" what is going on.
Finds Humor in this feed YES
Discourages Future fine point YES
Discourages Future restoration YES
Discourages Future Judging YES
Discourages Future Members YES

So....Who are we "waking" up here in reality???
The future of our club....that is who, and NOT to participate in any aspect of it any more...YES YES YES

Stop already!

[Ron in Quincy]

Pete,

The sad thing I see with you starting this POST is the position that some

of the A'ers have expressed " I'LL NEVER ENTER MY A IN BLUE RIBBON

JUDGING "



Does it bother you to realize that you may have discouraged others ?

Ron

[Bob Johnson]

If ones goal is to have a car with the highest score at a national meet I think the best way to do that is to buy one that has already won. If one wants to restore a car and enter it in a national meet then one has to decide on how one wants to accomplish the task. It is often said that when making something there are three factors Cost, Time and Quality, pick two. If one wants the best Quality then one has to sacrifice either Time or Cost.

Time in this case would consist of searching, research and experience. Searching would be looking for the best parts at a reasonable price. Going to lots of swap meets, looking on line and making contacts with as many people as possible to find the parts. Research would be finding out what is correct for ones car. This would start with the JS. One would also have to find as much original literature as possible and talk to the people who are recognized as knowledgeable. Experience in this case would be knowing what details cause judges to take off points. The best way to do this is to talk to as many judges as possible. I think that one can best learn this by being a judge. While judging one will learn what is acceptable and what is not. It would be best to judge in every area at least once to learn all that one can.

Cost is just that, MONEY. One can "buy" a high point restoration if one has the budget. With enough money one could hire many of the recognized experts to restore/overlook a restoration.

For me points and trophies are not the goal. I feel that the reward for doing a good job on a restoration is how I judge my work. It is nice to have other admire what I have done but I would rather please myself than others. After all it is my car not theirs.

Finally, comments on this board may or may not improve the way the cars are judged at the meets. One can publicly complain about the judging and if the complaints are loud and frequent it can result in changes. But there will be some bad feelings between the person complaining and the people making the changes. However improvements are more likely if one were to work from the inside. If one where to become part of the system that decides on the rules one could have a greater influence on "fixing" the rules. Or perhaps a better understanding of why the rules are the way they are and how they are used.

Just one persons opinion
Bob

[29RPU]

Let me try to settle a little dust here....it may be in vein, but for what it's worth:

1. Lets try to give Pete the benefit of the doubt....WAIT! not about the judging of his car, but with regard to his original post. He asked for people to help him figure out the score he received when he was at the Macungie meet. That doesn't sound like a bad thing. Truth is that none of us have any idea (except the judges who saw his car that have chimed in) how fair his car was judged. Mistakes happen. I don't know whether or not any were made, not my point here, just that we probably shouldn't use the word 'whine' anymore with regard to this post. It just doesn't make things any better.

2. Pete, sorry, but you have gone about your goal all wrong. The request to meet some people and discuss your car wasn't bad, but I have to admit, that every post you present seems to make you out as a sore loser. You'd be better off meeting with the people and let them see your car in person. If your objective is to co-miserate with them and have a witch-hunt for judges, then you are, infact, a whiner. If your motivation is to better understand if it was your car, or mistakes that happened in judging, then good for you, that is what you should do. Get a lot of opinions, talk to those responsible for keeping the judging rules, and change things for the better. But please don't make one more post here that describes how you were screwed and turn people away.

3. People, don't stop creating fine judging cars and entering them because of this nonsense. This is stupid, unimportant, opinionated forum posting. The hobby is much bigger than this. It is a learning curve, and always changing like everything else. Maybe Pete is resistent to change...who knows. If you like fine point and want a HUGE challenge, then go for it.

4. The next post on this topic should be Pete' in about a month, letting us know how successful he was in finding out what did or didn't go wrong, and if he was able to make any positive changes to the judging rules....I SAID POSITIVE Pete, not lowering the standards, or before long, a Henry won't mean anything.

might sound like attitude, but this is just my overall observance of this muck and is JMHO. Tom

[Larry Brumfield]

This is not directed at Pete. I just have a question.

If all the corrections were made to suit those exact same judges and they judged the car again would it receive a perfect score?


Larry B.

[Blessyouboys]

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

its easy to restore a fine point car if you work with 28/29 tudors ,coupes,roadsters.

This may be the most ignorant statement you've made in this whole thread.

[Ryan]

Hey fellas... We are all old car guys. Drama has no place here. Please don't start it or contribute to it.