The Ford Barn

GCrosby · 08-20-2015, 08:46 PM

Greetings folks,

I'm new to the forum and hope you can offer guidance for my particular problem. My father and I own a 31 Murray bodied, fordor sedan. This is a second family car that was converted to hydraulic brakes some time in its past. It appears that it utilizes 1939-1941 brake system including hubs/spindles. We have been fighting a very " heavy" feeling steering in this car. The frontend was rebuilt some years ago with new spring, king pins and bushings, etc. Additionally, a roller bearing two tooth sector steering box was installed. While we believe the gear box to be relatively tight...the steering still remains very heavy. Toe in, and caster appear in spec. Now here is the catch. Since the spindles are not model A, all the reference material is of questionable use. My main question pertains to the location of the bearing on the axle and hubs. On model A it appears it was on top of the hub under the head of the king pin. On our car, the hubs are taller than the axle end, requiring the bearing to go between the hub and axle. When we did the front axle rebuild 15 years ago, I thought the bearing was on top of the axle with the king pin coming up from the bottom and the king pin head on the bottom. The car is currently assembled with the bearing on the bottom of the axle and between the hub. This seems to match the 1939 axle pictures. But I read that if the bearing is placed in the wrong position or not shimmed properly, heavy steering can result. I simply don't know the physics involved with the axle assembly or which direction I should go.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

BILL WILLIAMSON · 08-20-2015, 09:14 PM

Model A's are typically hard steering, are you "maybe" expecting too much from it? Is everything greased well?
Bill W.

GCrosby · 08-20-2015, 09:27 PM

While it is possible that I may be expecting to much, I drove a 29 mail truck some time ago and it seemed easier to steer. Additionally, my father drove a coupe and reports the steering was lite and responsive. Prior to readjusting the sector mesh, it was like fighting a rhino attempting to drive down the road. It wanders badly and takes significant force to keep it on track...

I've got roughly 4.5 degrees of caster on the axle and 3/16 toe in. Steering linkage appears tight and is smooth with weight off wheels (go figure). While I drive other manual steering cars and understand they can be heavy at a stop or very low speeds, once moving, steering is generally not such a chore as this model A.

modelAtony · 08-20-2015, 09:49 PM

I think you should be at 1.5 at the axle. plum bob down make your point . Move your axle about 1.5 inches forward from the plum bob point. I run my tires about 38-39,000 before replacing and always have good steering. My car has up grades and can run 80-90 mph and I can let go of steering wheel on interstate and it doesn't move left or right when there is no wind blowing. Have fun modelAtony tony white Lafayette, LA

BILL WILLIAMSON · 08-20-2015, 09:58 PM

Your king pin bearing looks OK to me, once when Minerva gradually got to steering HARD, I was SO STUPID, the Firestones had ONLY 12# pressure & didn't even look LOW & wouldn't even flex, when Gregg, (RIP) & I shook her sideways & He was STRONG!
ALSO, when I first got her, the steering box was about 2/3 full of a clear looking grease, apparently pumped in from the fitting at the bottom. I topped it off with Valvoline Synthetic Gear oil, lubed EVERYTHING with Moly-Sulphide, (MOS2) grease & within a week, she gradually steered EASIER & EASIER. On a quick, sharp turn, she would "almost" recover to straight, un-assisted! Hope some of this might help, others will chime in also. Let us know your PROGRESS.----(When the Dog wakes up, I'll ask him if I FERGOT something)
Bill W.

GCrosby · 08-20-2015, 10:18 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I think based on what responses you guys have given, I would be well served to check the lubrication on the entire steering system. What weight gear oil are you using. Book states 600w and my dad believes that is what he put in..it is REALLY thick and sticky. I was at the auto parts store and could not find 600w. They suggested 80w145 gear lube... Thoughts?

Chuck Sea/Tac · 08-20-2015, 10:22 PM

Toe in is 1/16" +\- 1/32".

Pete · 08-21-2015, 12:01 AM

Your thrust bearing is in the correct place.
I think you said the car "wanders". This could be a result of several things. Your caster angle should be adequate to prevent this. Your toe in is a bit much but not enough to cause your problem.
When rebuilt, were the king pins tight in the AXLE? Should be a light tap fit with no "bell mouth" of the axle holes. If the pin can rock, it can cause wander.
If the tie rod and drag link ends are too tight, this can cause stiff steering.
If possible go drive SEVERAL other A's to compare steerings.

Using STRAIGHT Power Punch or STP in the gear box will noticibly reduce steering effort assuminng everything else in the system is correct.
It sounds like there is a mechanical problem in your system that needs fixing first though.

31Tudor · 08-21-2015, 07:33 AM

Hard Steering and wandering is basically a symptom of all kinds of things that can be wrong.
1. Worn balls on the steering arms
2. Worn king pins
3. Tie Rods not adjusted/tightened properly
4. Wrong Toe in
5. Steering gear box bushings and bearings worn out
6. Steering gear box sector teeth worn out
7. Worm gear worn out.
8. Gear box in need of adjustment, can't compensate real well if everything is wore out

Lubing needs to be done regularly, but unfortunately that will not solve your problems if your front axle and steering components are basically wore out and need replaced. There is a world of difference when you drive one that has been restored.

ursus · 08-21-2015, 01:23 PM

The thrust bearing on the 39-41 spindle assembly goes under the axle. When installing it on a Model A axle, you should use the corresponding 39-41 king pins. Mine looks like yours and it steers like butter. You need to check out the entire steering system for faults.

Jacksonlll · 08-21-2015, 01:45 PM

Look hard at the gear adjustment. I bet you are binding in there. Not easy to get a good adjust on the gear. jack

Mike V. Florida · 08-21-2015, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GCrosby

I think based on what responses you guys have given, I would be well served to check the lubrication on the entire steering system. What weight gear oil are you using. Book states 600w and my dad believes that is what he put in..it is REALLY thick and sticky. I was at the auto parts store and could not find 600w. They suggested 80w145 gear lube... Thoughts?

600W is not a weight of oil but rather a "brand" of oil. Mobil Oil through acquisitions bought the company that made 600w gear oil many years ago. Mobil still makes the 600w.

Mike V. Florida · 08-21-2015, 10:44 PM

As for your steering, This should help in understanding what is going on with the front end.

http://www.santaanitaas.org/wp-conte...n-Geometry.pdf

GCrosby · 08-21-2015, 11:53 PM

That was a simple and clear explanation of the king pin setup on the extra straight axle. Thanks for posting. I think the first step is to jack up the car and takke the weight off to grease the joints and see how that works. Then move to the gear box. Unfortunately, I have an overheating problem which has been tracked back to a head gasket issue to correct first.

Thanks, I'll report back my findings on the steering moving forward.

08-20-2015, 09:14 PM	#2
BILL WILLIAMSON Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: FRESNO, CA Posts: 12,560	Re: help with heavy steering Model A's are typically hard steering, are you "maybe" expecting too much from it? Is everything greased well? Bill W. __________________ "THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF"

08-20-2015, 09:27 PM	#3
GCrosby Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 4	Re: help with heavy steering While it is possible that I may be expecting to much, I drove a 29 mail truck some time ago and it seemed easier to steer. Additionally, my father drove a coupe and reports the steering was lite and responsive. Prior to readjusting the sector mesh, it was like fighting a rhino attempting to drive down the road. It wanders badly and takes significant force to keep it on track... I've got roughly 4.5 degrees of caster on the axle and 3/16 toe in. Steering linkage appears tight and is smooth with weight off wheels (go figure). While I drive other manual steering cars and understand they can be heavy at a stop or very low speeds, once moving, steering is generally not such a chore as this model A.

08-20-2015, 09:49 PM	#4
modelAtony Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: lafayette,la Posts: 459	Re: help with heavy steering I think you should be at 1.5 at the axle. plum bob down make your point . Move your axle about 1.5 inches forward from the plum bob point. I run my tires about 38-39,000 before replacing and always have good steering. My car has up grades and can run 80-90 mph and I can let go of steering wheel on interstate and it doesn't move left or right when there is no wind blowing. Have fun modelAtony tony white Lafayette, LA

08-20-2015, 09:58 PM	#5
BILL WILLIAMSON Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: FRESNO, CA Posts: 12,560	Re: help with heavy steering Your king pin bearing looks OK to me, once when Minerva gradually got to steering HARD, I was SO STUPID, the Firestones had ONLY 12# pressure & didn't even look LOW & wouldn't even flex, when Gregg, (RIP) & I shook her sideways & He was STRONG! ALSO, when I first got her, the steering box was about 2/3 full of a clear looking grease, apparently pumped in from the fitting at the bottom. I topped it off with Valvoline Synthetic Gear oil, lubed EVERYTHING with Moly-Sulphide, (MOS2) grease & within a week, she gradually steered EASIER & EASIER. On a quick, sharp turn, she would "almost" recover to straight, un-assisted! Hope some of this might help, others will chime in also. Let us know your PROGRESS.----(When the Dog wakes up, I'll ask him if I FERGOT something) Bill W. __________________ "THE ASSISTANT GURU OF STUFF"

08-20-2015, 10:18 PM	#6
GCrosby Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 4	Re: help with heavy steering Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) I think based on what responses you guys have given, I would be well served to check the lubrication on the entire steering system. What weight gear oil are you using. Book states 600w and my dad believes that is what he put in..it is REALLY thick and sticky. I was at the auto parts store and could not find 600w. They suggested 80w145 gear lube... Thoughts?

08-20-2015, 10:22 PM	#7
Chuck Sea/Tac Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Between Seattle & Tacoma Posts: 2,354	Re: help with heavy steering Toe in is 1/16" +\- 1/32".

08-21-2015, 12:01 AM	#8
Pete Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Wa. Posts: 5,408	Re: help with heavy steering Your thrust bearing is in the correct place. I think you said the car "wanders". This could be a result of several things. Your caster angle should be adequate to prevent this. Your toe in is a bit much but not enough to cause your problem. When rebuilt, were the king pins tight in the AXLE? Should be a light tap fit with no "bell mouth" of the axle holes. If the pin can rock, it can cause wander. If the tie rod and drag link ends are too tight, this can cause stiff steering. If possible go drive SEVERAL other A's to compare steerings. Using STRAIGHT Power Punch or STP in the gear box will noticibly reduce steering effort assuminng everything else in the system is correct. It sounds like there is a mechanical problem in your system that needs fixing first though.

08-21-2015, 07:33 AM	#9
31Tudor Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: North Carolina Posts: 611	Re: help with heavy steering Hard Steering and wandering is basically a symptom of all kinds of things that can be wrong. 1. Worn balls on the steering arms 2. Worn king pins 3. Tie Rods not adjusted/tightened properly 4. Wrong Toe in 5. Steering gear box bushings and bearings worn out 6. Steering gear box sector teeth worn out 7. Worm gear worn out. 8. Gear box in need of adjustment, can't compensate real well if everything is wore out Lubing needs to be done regularly, but unfortunately that will not solve your problems if your front axle and steering components are basically wore out and need replaced. There is a world of difference when you drive one that has been restored.

08-21-2015, 01:23 PM	#10
ursus Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,375	Re: help with heavy steering The thrust bearing on the 39-41 spindle assembly goes under the axle. When installing it on a Model A axle, you should use the corresponding 39-41 king pins. Mine looks like yours and it steers like butter. You need to check out the entire steering system for faults.

08-21-2015, 01:45 PM	#11
Jacksonlll Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Michigan-- Member of Oakleaf of MARC Posts: 1,686	Re: help with heavy steering Look hard at the gear adjustment. I bet you are binding in there. Not easy to get a good adjust on the gear. jack

08-21-2015, 10:44 PM	#13
Mike V. Florida Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South Florida Posts: 14,054	Re: help with heavy steering As for your steering, This should help in understanding what is going on with the front end. http://www.santaanitaas.org/wp-conte...n-Geometry.pdf __________________ What's right about America is that although we have a mess of problems, we have great capacity - intellect and resources - to do some thing about them. - Henry Ford II

08-21-2015, 11:53 PM	#14
GCrosby Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 4	Re: help with heavy steering That was a simple and clear explanation of the king pin setup on the extra straight axle. Thanks for posting. I think the first step is to jack up the car and takke the weight off to grease the joints and see how that works. Then move to the gear box. Unfortunately, I have an overheating problem which has been tracked back to a head gasket issue to correct first. Thanks, I'll report back my findings on the steering moving forward.