Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Early V8 (1932-53)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-02-2018, 05:01 PM   #1
2manycars
Senior Member
 
2manycars's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern CT
Posts: 2,732
Default Lockheed brake frustrations

When I drove my 40 in the 60's, I could lock up all four wheels in a quick stop. Now I feel like fred flintstone. I have been fussing with the annoying lower mount adjustments, and not much improvement. I notice that the post war Lockheed brakes did not use the lower cam adjustment, but used a differnt shoe and mounting bolt. Supposedly these centered themselves. Is it possible to use the post war shoes and mounting bolts on the 40 backing plates? This would make adjustments easier, and probably result in better brakes.
Or should I just spend the big bucks and convert to Bendix self energizing brakes?
There are probably 4 times as many cars on the roads as there was in the 60's and we did not have cell phones, texting, and infotainment systems to make the roads more dangerous, so I think good brakes are more important than ever.
__________________
Bill
www.brauchauto.com
2manycars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2018, 05:08 PM   #2
JSeery
Member Emeritus
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 16,132
Default Re: Lockheed brake frustrations

Interesting question, I know very little about the Lockheed brakes, there may be some others that can provide some adjustment help. But that said the Bendix brakes are a definite improvement over the Lockheed brakes, and much easier to adjust.
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 09-02-2018, 06:47 PM   #3
V8COOPMAN
Senior Member
 
V8COOPMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: East Shore of LAKE HOUSTON
Posts: 11,106
Default Re: Lockheed brake frustrations

You mention "spending the BIG BUCKS...." ! You only need to spend about $400 on the two front backing plates. The old Ford drums work with the Bendix brakes. The rear LOCKHEED brakes work just fine in conjunction with the Bendix fronts. You MAY need to properly size the M/C to work with the Bendix brakes. DD
__________________
Click Links Below __


'35-'36 W/8BA & MECHANICAL FAN


T5 W/TORQUE TUBE
V8COOPMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2018, 07:06 PM   #4
Fred A
Senior Member
 
Fred A's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Encino California, near Burbank
Posts: 935
Default Re: Lockheed brake frustrations

Just out of high school, as a big spender, paid $600 for a nice '40 business coupe. Dad was away on a movie location and on return dictated that I leave the coupe in the drive until I installed Zephyr brakes. Lucky they were common in the low buck yards and were quickly torched off at the axles. He really knew his brakes. Still taking his advice. Good Luck: Fred A
Fred A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2018, 10:18 PM   #5
hotcoupe
Senior Member
 
hotcoupe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: imperial,mo
Posts: 685
Default Re: Lockheed brake frustrations

I'm planning to use Lincoln brakes (front & rear) on my '37 1/2 ton. I have '40 brakes on it now and I just don't feel confident, especially the way people drive today. Just consider the worst case scenario, what's it going to cost if you tag the guy in front of you.
Tom
hotcoupe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2018, 09:12 AM   #6
2manycars
Senior Member
 
2manycars's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern CT
Posts: 2,732
Default Re: Lockheed brake frustrations

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
I just spent another morning trying to adjust the Lockheeds and the brakes are pitiful. I will nurse it along until the cruise in season is over in a few weeks, and buy the bendix conversion.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 40nbill.jpg (18.5 KB, 67 views)
File Type: jpg 40ford18-09.jpg (280.3 KB, 65 views)
__________________
Bill
www.brauchauto.com
2manycars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2018, 09:37 AM   #7
Darrell S
Senior Member
 
Darrell S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Everett WA
Posts: 346
Default Re: Lockheed brake frustrations

Are the Lockheed brakes from 40 different from the brakes on the 48? Are the Lincoln brakes an improvement over the 48's also?
Darrell S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2018, 09:41 AM   #8
19Fordy
Senior Member
 
19Fordy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Coral Springs FL
Posts: 10,879
Default Re: Lockheed brake frustrations

Nice looking 40. Are you 100% sure you are adjusting the 40 Lockheed brakes correctly? Re: Lincoln brakes: If your drums are truly "true" and not over .060 in. just buy the MT Products front and rear loaded backing plates and you are good to go. You can buy either backing plates with either the 1 3/4 in. or 2 in. brake shoes. To make the Lincoln backing plate fit flat against the spindle you have to grind away a small amount of metal from the top area of each spindle near the king pin. Use a die grinder. Easy to do. Go with the 2 in. If you do decide to buy the entire MT Lincoln kit with the easily removable drums be sure to use your old OEM FORD rear wheel bearings as the repro bearings may be imports of low quality. I bought the complete MT kit from Cornhuskers Rod and Custom. Owner goes buy the name "Krylon" on Fordbarn and HAMB. No complaints.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_7322small.jpg (74.6 KB, 84 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_7127small.jpg (73.9 KB, 67 views)

Last edited by 19Fordy; 09-03-2018 at 01:18 PM.
19Fordy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2018, 09:43 AM   #9
19Fordy
Senior Member
 
19Fordy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Coral Springs FL
Posts: 10,879
Default Re: Lockheed brake frustrations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell S View Post
Are the Lockheed brakes from 40 different from the brakes on the 48? Are the Lincoln brakes an improvement over the 48's also?

Yes, they are an improvement as Bendix brakes are self energizing with improved stopping power. Lockheed are not self energizing. If you do a "Google" search on Lockheed and Bendix Brakes info. like this appears.
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...1451&showall=1

Last edited by 19Fordy; 09-03-2018 at 09:52 AM.
19Fordy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2018, 09:44 AM   #10
rotorwrench
Senior Member
 
rotorwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 16,372
Default Re: Lockheed brake frustrations

The Lockheed type have less mechanical advantage than the Bendix design but they can be made to work as good as when they were new. The best way to start out is to have the shoes matched up to the drums but the old shoe arc grinders are hard to find now days. The government wanted folks to turn them in when they were threatening a ban on the toxic fibrous type of asbestos such as was used in steam pipe insulation and any form that was ground down such as brake shoe lining dust. A lot of shops did that recall plus the modern Bendix types rarely needed arcing anyway so most shops didn't use them anymore.


When they are properly fit to the drums, they are easy to adjust. On drums that are worn out to the limits, a thicker lining was installed then arced down for better fit. If a person starts with new drums, it can make the job easier but the shoes would have to be hand fit if a person has no access to an arcing machine.


All this makes the M/T Lincoln style types look better all the time. Since the shoe can float and has an improvement of mechanical advantage, a person generally doesn't have to worry about arcing the shoes. The ones for rear brakes are generally fit with smaller diameter brake cylinders to give a more balanced overall braking action.
rotorwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2018, 10:08 AM   #11
51woodie
Senior Member
 
51woodie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Chelmsford, ON Canada
Posts: 524
Default Re: Lockheed brake frustrations

I changed out the brakes on my '46 Super Deluxe to the 1-3/4 X 12" Bendix style brakes, which is the stock size for the car. I got the rear and front brake kits from Mac's. I later found that Boling Brothers sells them as well, and a little cheaper, as MAC's gets them from B-B. http://www.bolingbrothers.com/1937-1948/ The change over was pretty much plug and play. One thing to watch for is there may be some stamping/punch-out burrs on the backing plates where they fit over the axle/spindle "centering" lip. On the front spindles, you may (I did) have to do a bit of grinding around the top and possibly on the outer edges of the bolt hole lugs, to make sure the backing plates fit flat on the spindles. A bit of grinding may be needed on the rear axle flanges as well. I stuck some masking tape on the back side of the backing plates where they fit on, placed the plate and wiggled/twisted on the axle/spindle to check for interference. This gave me locations that I had to grind. I installed a new stock master cylinder, set up the brakes and they work very well. As my car is stock it has an oil bath air cleaner, and when I did a brake test, I got some chirping from the tires, but also some oil splashed out of the cleaner and was nicely distributed around the engine compartment by the fan!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0276.jpg (41.3 KB, 57 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0289.jpg (46.9 KB, 600 views)
51woodie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2018, 10:41 AM   #12
Juergen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 499
Default Re: Lockheed brake frustrations

" Is it possible to use the post war shoes and mounting bolts on the 40 backing plates? This would make adjustments easier, and probably result in better brakes."

To answer one of your questions, it is not practical to convert the 40 backing plates to the Bendix style. The anchor bolts and springs are entirely different.
Juergen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2018, 10:55 AM   #13
19Fordy
Senior Member
 
19Fordy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Coral Springs FL
Posts: 10,879
Default Re: Lockheed brake frustrations

To add a little bit to Juergen's reply:
The 40 Lockheed wheel cylinder is also located higher up than the Lincoln Bendix.
It's a whole different configuration.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_6880small Left front.jpg (82.5 KB, 46 views)
19Fordy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2018, 01:07 PM   #14
2manycars
Senior Member
 
2manycars's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern CT
Posts: 2,732
Default Re: Lockheed brake frustrations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juergen View Post
" Is it possible to use the post war shoes and mounting bolts on the 40 backing plates? This would make adjustments easier, and probably result in better brakes."

To answer one of your questions, it is not practical to convert the 40 backing plates to the Bendix style. The anchor bolts and springs are entirely different.
I was asking if the 42 to 48 Lockheed brakes would work on the 40 backing plates.
I have decided to covert to Bendix Lincoln type brakes.
__________________
Bill
www.brauchauto.com
2manycars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2018, 01:08 PM   #15
bobH
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: so cal, placerville, vegas
Posts: 1,394
Default Re: Lockheed brake frustrations

Good info posted... Will add that I don't think adjusting those early brakes is that big of deal. Just think about what you are trying to accomplish, and go for it.
Richard, Early V8 Garage, has posted detailed instructions on here, several times. I assume a search will turn it up. Or... just call Dennis or Richard at the EV8G, and ask for help.
Putting on 46-48 backing plates & shoes, would eliminate the need for that lower adjustment. I've had good luck finding those parts for free.
And another thing... Those early brakes (39-41) originally came with a 1-1/4 (big-end) wheel cylinder. My experience, & my opinion, changing that wheel cylinder to the 46-48 cylinder is an improvement. The 46-48 cylinder is 1-3/8. On my 47, some previous person had put on (new) early cylinders, the 1-1/4 variety. Once I changed them to 1-3/8, I had a noticeable improvement in braking.
Of course, none of my comments negate the improvement of Bendix-style front brakes.
To address one of the questions... converting the existing backing plate to Bendix... There was a person (I think in TX) that was doing this. It's almost like major surgery, but the point is, it CAN be done. The price is/was almost the same as buying the new MT kit. My opinion... not worth it, just buy the new kit.

Last edited by bobH; 09-03-2018 at 01:14 PM.
bobH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2018, 01:11 PM   #16
2manycars
Senior Member
 
2manycars's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern CT
Posts: 2,732
Default Re: Lockheed brake frustrations

Quote:
Originally Posted by 19Fordy View Post
Nice looking 40. Are you 100% sure you are adjusting the 40 Lockheed brakes correctly? Re: Lincoln brakes: If your drums are truly "true" and not over .060 in. just buy the MT Products front and rear loaded backing plates and you are good to go. You can buy either backing plates with either the 1 3/4 in. or 2 in. brake shoes. To make the Lincoln backing plate fit flat against the spindle you have to grind away a small amount of metal from the top area of each spindle near the king pin. Use a die grinder. Easy to do. Go with the 2 in. If you do decide to buy the entire MT Lincoln kit with the easily removable drums. Be sure to use your old OEM FORD rear wheel bearings as the repro bearings may be imports of low quality. I bought the complete MT kit from Cornhuskers Rod and Custom. Owner goes buy the name "Krylon" on Fordbarn and HAMB. No complaints.
I have been adjusting the brakes as per the book, but whoever did this brake job some years ago might have set it up wrong. If I start with the lower pivot bolts set with the dots together, I cannot turn them down without binding, and in fact need to have the dots turned up a bit. The more I fuss with them, the more frustrated I get. The lining is also hard, and glazed, so I need to rebuild the complete system. I am also going to convert the front to Lincoln bendix brakes.
The photos are me with the car in 1964, and today.
__________________
Bill
www.brauchauto.com
2manycars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2018, 01:16 PM   #17
2manycars
Senior Member
 
2manycars's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Eastern CT
Posts: 2,732
Default Re: Lockheed brake frustrations

Thanks to all who responded. I am planning a complete overhaul of the brakes, with a Bendix front conversion.
__________________
Bill
www.brauchauto.com
2manycars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2018, 01:19 PM   #18
bobH
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: so cal, placerville, vegas
Posts: 1,394
Default Re: Lockheed brake frustrations

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manycars View Post
I have been adjusting the brakes as per the book, but whoever did this brake job some years ago might have set it up wrong. If I start with the lower pivot bolts set with the dots together, I cannot turn them down without binding, and in fact need to have the dots turned up a bit. The more I fuss with them, the more frustrated I get. The lining is also hard, and glazed, so I need to rebuild the complete system. I am also going to convert the front to Lincoln bendix brakes.
The photos are me with the car in 1964, and today.




Another comment, another opinion.... Hard lining = nfg. You need soft lining for good brakes. Soft lining should not be a problem. My local relining guy, friction shop, seems to understand. And, when I ask for soft lining, he seems to know exactly what is needed to make fixed-anchor (Lockheed) brakes work.
bobH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2018, 01:30 PM   #19
19Fordy
Senior Member
 
19Fordy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Coral Springs FL
Posts: 10,879
Default Re: Lockheed brake frustrations

2manycars; Your problem is worth solving before you spend the big dollars.
When you say,
"I cannot turn them down without binding," What exactly is is binding?
Is your emergency brake "On?"
Is your brake pedal "free play" adjustment correct?
Rub some chalk on your brake shoes,install the drums and road test the car to see what part of brake linings are contacting the drums.

With the brake drum removed, turn those "dots" and carefully examine what happens to the adjustment. Could it be that the brass inserts in the bottom anchor holes are incorrectly installed? The stock 40 brake drum lining was 1/5 of an inch thick according to the 1935-48 CHILTON's MANUAL, page 437. Check yours for variation on all your wheels. Also, could it be that your brake linings are oversize with the ends of the shoes rubbing against the drum surface and the middle of the shoes are not..

Post photos of your situation. It would be interesting to see and possibly solve right on this forum.

Finally, do a Fordbarn search "Adjusting 40 Ford brakes" Lots of good info and problem solving, like this:
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...st+1940+brakes

Be sure to read all of this thread about adjusting 40 brakes.
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showt...40+ford+brakes

Last edited by 19Fordy; 09-03-2018 at 01:57 PM.
19Fordy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2018, 01:54 PM   #20
Vintage Copper 47
Senior Member
 
Vintage Copper 47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: The sleepy San Fernando Valley
Posts: 394
Default Re: Lockheed brake frustrations

I upgraded to Bendix brakes when I first got my 47.. No regrets AT ALL!
__________________
WALT

"We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm".

"Old enough for the experience & too young to know better"
Vintage Copper 47 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:31 PM.