How is '54 Yblock (239) water pump different than all later ones?

[JimNNN]

Buying parts on ebay is a gamble, but sometimes works out fine. Mac's and Dennis Carpenter don't seem to have a '54 water pump in stock, so I looked on ebay. Dennis Carpenter has one for all later y blocks, but not '54. I'm wondering how they're different.


Some mass marketing dopes are selling water pumps that they claim are good for 54-62, but they get poor reviews for their pumps saying they won't fit '54. Given what I've read, I won't order one that claims it'll fit all Y blocks.



But there are a few reasonably priced ones on ebay that say they're for '54, and don't mention any other years. I'm tempted, but want to know how the '54 is different before buying. Not sure how knowledgeable the sellers are. Thanks for any info.



Jim

[Daves55Sedan]

The 1954, 239 Y-block that was used in cars has a smaller water pump than the '55 and later Y-blocks. Some of the '54, F100 pickups may have had the smaller pump, but at some point in the '54 model year, Fomoco started making the pickup truck 239 Y-Block at a different foundry and those had the larger water pump that fits all 272/292/312 engines.
Bottom line; the cast iron timing chain cover on the '54, 239 is different than the one for the 272 and later engines and the water pump is not interchangeable between the '54 car engine and all the later Y-blocks.

[Daves55Sedan]

For that matter, the '54, 239 heads and intake manifold are also not singularly interchangeable with the later Y-blocks, but it is possible to install all three mating parts on a later short block.
The 239 car engine heads have smaller intake ports spaced a little bit closer together than all the later Y-blocks.

[JimNNN]

Thanks a bunch Dave. So it's a matter of comparing the pics from ad to ad to make sure the ones claiming to be '54 don't look exactly like the others. I was worried there was some functional difference that was difficult to detect visually.



It looks like a lot of the ebay pumps I was looking at earlier today are gone. But this one has shown up, says it's a '54 (and nothing else) and it looks like mine and he even took a pic of the casting number which matches mine.I think I'll buy it.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/1954-FORD-C...QAAOSwuNNcAGak

[Daves55Sedan]

You probably won't notice a difference unless you had both side-by-side. I suggest rather than messing around with erroneous listings in epay, you have your water pump rebuilt. Possibly several of the Ford resto parts suppliers offer that service. They also sell brand new water pumps for the 272 and later Y-blocks BUT not for the '54, 239. Tough break!
Don't ever assume auto parts listings on epay are accurate. Most of those guys are guessing as to what it fits. I have seen some real doozies in there.

[dmsfrr]

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Originally Posted by Daves55Sedan

The 1954, 239 Y-block that was used in cars has a smaller water pump than the '55 and later Y-blocks. Some of the '54, F100 pickups may have had the smaller pump, but at some point in the '54 model year, Fomoco started making the pickup truck 239 Y-Block at a different foundry and those had the larger water pump ...
... You probably won't notice a difference unless you had both side-by-side. ...

Side-by-side
In addition to the size difference, notice the water pump bolt patterns.
One appears to be symmetrical and the other is not.

[darrell]

the one your looking at is the right one.i see its been sold so i guess you got it.you have to watch yourself on ebay.many times they dont even know what their selling.other times try to nail you for shipping for more than the part.

[scicala]

If it's got the same casting number, it's the correct one. Sal

[JimNNN]

Thanks guys. Yes I did buy it. EBU-8505-A seems to be the correct number for 1954 and not for anything else. ECE-8505-B and EVE-8505-(?) are on the later pumps.



I know when I bought the car 15 years ago that the fuel pump was also unique to 1954 and nothing else would fit. The locally available Y block pumps were all wrong because the rocker arm was different. That was a hassle. I don't remember seeing a conspicuous number on the pump, but there apparently was one. Had to send my original pump to a place in Mass. to be rebuilt. They seemed to do an okay job, but I'm not sending thrilled about sending my original rare parts in for rebuild. Sometimes it's necessary, but I avoid it if I can.

[54vicky]

as for your WP the #s as you already know are correct but there were aftermarket ones without the ebu casting

[JimNNN]

Originally Posted by 54vicky

as for your WP the #s as you already know are correct but there were aftermarket ones without the ebu casting

That's a good point. The aftermarket pumps made as replacements for the original wouldn't have the numbers.

As the fuel pump goes, it's been so long since I took mine out for it to be rebuilt that I can't exactly remember, but I think the rocker arm was like this one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1954-Ford-a...-/152217526171


As I recall, the one I bought locally was like this, which according to Speedway are 55 and later:
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/1955-...iABEgIx2vD_BwE


It wouldn't fit so I took it back. I have another one of those lying around, too. If anyone needs it let me know:

[54vicky]

do not be fooled by what you read-see on the bay as the people listing have no clue as to what they are listing.

[34pickup]

If I had a 54 that I was going to keep, I would keep my eyes open for replacement parts that I didn't even need and buy them for later when I need it and can't find it. I have a parts 239 out of my old 54 coupe if you need some used parts.

[JimNNN]

If I had a 54 that I was going to keep, I would keep my eyes open for replacement parts that I didn't even need and buy them for later when I need it and can't find it.

That's what this water pump is. I would get an extra fuel pump, too, but I couldn't find one 15 years ago when I needed a replacement, so I had mine rebuilt. Regardless of what others say the later ones won't work for my original '54 motor...I know, I tried. Maybe they changed fuel pump design mid year or something. I don't know if the oil pumps are the same or not. Any year specific part is worth having.



It would even be fun to rebuild an extra 239 engine for a spare...but that's going a bit overboard.

[dmsfrr]

Originally Posted by 34pickup

If I had a 54 that I was going to keep, I would keep my eyes open for replacement parts that I didn't even need and buy them for later when I need it and can't find it. ...

Originally Posted by JimNNN

... I would get an extra fuel pump, too, but I couldn't find one 15 years ago when I needed a replacement, so I had mine rebuilt. Regardless of what others say the later ones won't work for my original '54 motor...I know, I tried. Maybe they changed fuel pump design mid year or something. I don't know if the oil pumps are the same or not. Any year specific part is worth having.
It would even be fun to rebuild an extra 239 engine for a spare...but that's going a bit overboard.

Back in '12 I took a '54 long-block to the Y-block Guru at a local machine shop to see if it was rebuildable. He told me it was, but only because it was a 'late' version. It seems the early cam bearings and a few other parts(?) hadn't been available from his suppliers for a long time, so he couldn't do those engines. If 'someone else' could round up all the obsolete NOS parts then it would be possible.
'55 and up parts are more commonly available.
The handwriting is on the wall ???
.

[JimNNN]

Back in '12 I took a '54 long-block to the Y-block Guru at a local machine shop to see if it was rebuildable. He told me it was, but only because it was a 'late' version. It seems the early cam bearings and a few other parts(?) hadn't been available from his suppliers for a long time, so he couldn't do those engines. If 'someone else' could round up all the obsolete NOS parts then it would be possible.
'55 and up parts are more commonly available.
The handwriting is on the wall ???

I wonder about that too. My Ranch Wagon has 66k original (actual) miles, runs quiet and smooth, has good oil pressure, doesn't overheat...but it smokes when you first start it up (some folks had said this might be valve guides...I replaced the valve "seals".) On rare occasion it made a very mild main bearing sounding noise for 4 or 5 seconds at start up, though it doesn't do that much anymore. The compression is pretty even between cylinders, but it's only a little over 100 PSI compared to the 125 or so spec for new engines.



In other words, it's showing it's age, but is still reliable. For the 500 miles/year I drive it, I figure that's ok, but I'm thinking if the engine ever gives out I'll just find a 272 or a 292.