Hillbilly block cleaning...electrolysis

[Willit Stop]

I found this on Youtube.Has anyone tried it?
BTW....thanks for the video,whoever you are.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KStgxkXSqQ

[JSeery]

There is a lot of information on this online.

[tubman]

I tried electrolysis about 15 years ago. It does remove rust, but I found it to be a very messy process and considered the process a failure. That being said, the block in the video looks good; and that is the problem. Electrolysis works on line of sight only and doesn't "turn corners". Thus, what you can see works good, but the problems lies where you can't see.

I'm sure that the block is a lot cleaner than when he started, but I don't think it's anywhere near a commercially "shake 'n bake" job. I'm also somewhat concerned about some of the rough spots that were present on the block at the end of the video. There was a feature on soaking blocks in Molasses on the H.A.M.B., and they ended up with the same problem : pitted machined surfaces that were fine when they started.

The last good used engine I put back into service received three flushes with with "Rust-911" (a cheap "Evaporust") and turned out well. I ran it up to temperature with the solution in it and let it sit for a day, after which I flushed it with clean water. I did this three times and I think it cleaned a lot of crap out of the engine. I have run it in my '51 for the last two years without a hint of overheating.

Here's what the block looked like inside when I was done :

[petehoovie]

From what I could see in the video, the innards of the block didn't look that bad to begin with....

[JSeery]

The problem with a lot of de-rusting methods is good metal get removed along with the rust. I like the Evaporust type of solutions.

[AnthonyG]

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what ever happened to our member who was developing a new V8 Flat Head casting? There was a lot of excitement for quite a while??

[AnthonyG]

Tod, was the member who was working on the development of a new Flathead casting & machining?

[tubman]

He's still around, A few days ago he had a thread that seemed to indicate that he has gotten side-tracked for a while by some V8-60 heads he is developing. The guy has a zillion things going; amazingly, he gets most of them done!

[Tinker]

Think I'll stick to the coat hanger, long screwdriverand garden hose.

If its a rebuild, them machine shops do a decent job of cleaning blocks before machining.

[19Fordy]

Does the electrolysis method also dissolve the metal that hold the front and rear rope seals in place?

[cas3]

i liked the electrolysis for small parts until it killed my favorite battery charger. tied molasses, yeah it works but very slow. intend to try citric acid but havnt done it yet. still find evaporust is best. blast cabinet with glass, or sand blast outside is still my choice for parts

[tubman]

"cas3" - "still find Evaporust is best". I use beads in my cabinet and sand outside as well. It looks like us Minnesotans think alike. I think I can save you some time and expense with citric acid. There is an older thread on the H.A.M.B. about it that implies that it works the same way as Evaporust (chellation); this is NOT true. Citric is acid is just what it says it is : an acid. It works like all acids and has the attendant problems they all have. If you gotta use acid, vinegar and oxalic acid are really all you need.

[flatheadmurre]

Electrolysis is like electroplating the electrons take the shortest route...so for it to work good inside a block you need to stick electrodes inside it.

[philipswanson]

No need to spend allot on brand names. Phosphoric acid is the active ingredient in most of these products. Just buy the acid at a chemical store. Works better and allot cheaper. Not electrolysis tho.

[tubman]

You seem to be implying that the expensive "brand names" are acid. THIS IS NOT TRUE. I purchased a bunch of pH test strips from a chemical supply company and tested a bunch of this stuff. "Evaporust", "Rust 9-11", and "Metal Rescue" all tested out neutral (pH=7) with these strips. The acids I tested all came out with a pH in the 1-3 range. The expensive "brand names" work by process called chellation. I have forgotten metal parts in "Evaporust" for weeks and they came out undamaged. Try that with any acid.

[freddie]

Please note that English is my second languish and I do not want to sit with a dictionary to share this information.

The high carbon content steel (cast iron) will suffer in the long term when electrolysis is used and applied as a block cleaning method. The blocks was
cased in sand molds with very thin sand covering the areas where studs needs to be installed. The reason being that you need a kind of a anieled (hardened) metal area so that the studs do not pull out of the casting when the top bolts are torqued.

This process of anieling a part of a casting has some peculiar aspects that should be understood. The in between area of the casting (the area where the casting is cooled quickly to obtain the anieled area and the still molten metal areas) are usually associated with a porous area. This porous area is crated when the molted metal want to solidify and it result in the carbon to explode. This cannot be seen with the naked eye but should you perform a dye penatrant test you will notice that large areas of the casting change to the color of the dye. The casting becomes like a sponge.

Now, cleaning the block by means of electrolysis have the the following consequences. In actual fact you are removing metal from the waterways. Electrolysis will remove the metal around the carbon, thus creating capillary like apertures (crevices) deep inside the casting. The normal flow of cooling water cannot penetrate these deep apertures and the water in fact becomes stagnant in them. This water will start to rot. This rotting process is called crevice corrosion and it never stops.

The appearance of electrolysis cleaning looks very good, but in time you will notice crack like indications and after time a real crack will appear. Before destroying something which will deprive our future generation from enjoying our same passion, do some research and do not rely on YOU TUBE.

If you want to install a sacrificial anode use a magnesium compound. Always add a cup of water soluble bath oil in your coolant even if you use an antifreeze.

[Yoyodyne]

Thank you Freddie - you sound like either a chemist or a metallurgist.
Will acid have the same effect? Like citric acid or phosphoric acid?

[Topher5150]

I used to do electro plating, and this guy was missing something. For better coverage all around the block he should have had plates on all four sides.

[freddie]

I am not a chemist. I am a heavy current electrical engineer that write specifications for large turbo generator sets. This equipment is usually equipped with very large gearboxes and similar sized water coolers.

We currently sit with huge gearboxes that was manufactured during the 40's where the oil actually seep through the casting. This is due to wrong cleaning processes being applied in the past.

The simplest and most effective way to remove rust from cast water channels is to use a 50/50 solution of water and vinegar. it will only attack the surface it is in contact with. Once done, rinse and neutralize with baking soda. Then rinse, rinse and rinse.

When you fill the water back into the engine fill it with pre-mixed water and anti-freeze. Add a cup of water soluble bath oil and do not worry further. Should you be able to borrow a PH meter from a friend make sure your water is at neutral PH.

Running with slightly elevated PH have the tendency to remove the softer material in your water ways. Should you have silver soldered areas, the silver will be removed first.

[flatheadmurre]

Any acid shouldn´t be close to cast iron !
Either caustic rust removal as most rebuilding companies use as they take paint grease gaskets and anything else thats not iron.
Or with a chelate that exchanges the oxygen molecules in the iron to make it let go of the base material.
I´m not a fan of oil in the coolant since it works against heat transfer and if you get an emulsion you can have an increased chance of cavitation...not much of an issue on a flathead but in some of the diesels it´s a real threat to the engine.
Just my sum of personal f-ups during the years.
Murre

[tubman]

The bottom line is that the only process of de-rusting metal that is not destructive is chellation. Everything else will have a deleterious effect on cast iron, depending on how long it is immersed. There is a thread on the H.A.M.B. where this is emphasized when Molasses ( the weakest acid there is) is used. https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...2#post-9329252.

It was posted by our own "Bored&Stroked"; perhaps he will check in on this subject.

It's like just about everything else : the best method will probably always be the most expensive. I have searched and searched for the last couple of years to find an inexpensive chellation agent and have rejected everything I've found. There is an agent out there called EDTA (for short), but it seems to be as expensive as the final product itself.

[JSeery]

I'm in the no acid camp as well. You want something that works on the rust only and not the base metal.

[dmar836]

Old thread but even molasses uses acid as it is part of the reaction as it breaks down, or reacts with the metal. It's also nasty when left to work for a few weeks. Evil globs of floating, smelly, rotten scum. Works really well on body panels but I think I'll stay clear of the molasses.

[Bored&Stroked]

Just bought a bunch of Evaporust for my next racing block project - will never do molasses again . . . not only because it eats away at the good metal, but because it is a mess to work with, stinks to high Hell and is not worth the trouble.

[dmar836]

B&S, Is there a special technique you use with the Evaporust? Lay block on back with heads on and fill, etc?
My project is disassembled so can't be filled/flushed/repeated.
D

[Ronnieroadster]

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Originally Posted by dmar836

B&S, Is there a special technique you use with the Evaporust? Lay block on back with heads on and fill, etc?
My project is disassembled so can't be filled/flushed/repeated.
D

I have used Evaporust to clean the water jacket areas on disassembled blocks. With the empty block mounted in the engine stand held in by the bell housing end rotate the block so the deck surface is level to the ground. Cover the front areas where the water pumps bolt on and put a plug in the block drains if there's any. Now simply fill the block with the Evaporust I usually leave the stuff in for a couple of days.
An added note prior to filling the block I first scrape out as much material as possible from the areas between and around the rear two cylinders on each side. After the hand scraping flush the block out as much as possible. Now its time for the Evaporust
Ronnieroadster

[Pete]

I have had blocks stripped since the mid 50's. It is the only method that will get ALL of the scale from the bottom of the water jackets. Notice I said SCALE. Rust is secondary, scale should be the first concern to remove. Stripping does not etch machined surfaces.
If you have ANY scale on a surface, it will add to the reading of an ultrasonic gauge and give a false reading of thickness. Most people are too cheap to pay for stripping so they suffer with the problems.

[slowforty]

I filled my block with vinegar, about two gallons .left it out in the sun for a few hours the heat from the sun caused it to boil(?) over. Left an interesting pattern on the driveway. Move the engine over to the lawn did it twice more. Cleaned the block well. Also vinegar is a GREAT grass killer. Weed Killer receipe one gallon vinegar. half cup of salt , three ounces of dawn dish soap

[tomcarman]

Originally Posted by Pete

I have had blocks stripped since the mid 50's. It is the only method that will get ALL of the scale from the bottom of the water jackets. Notice I said SCALE. Rust is secondary, scale should be the first concern to remove. Stripping does not etch machined surfaces.
If you have ANY scale on a surface, it will add to the reading of an ultrasonic gauge and give a false reading of thickness. Most people are too cheap to pay for stripping so they suffer with the problems.

Pete, I am unfamiliar with "stripping". What is the process and what chemical(s) are used. Who does it in our area? I'm interested. I have 2 blocks I'd like to get a closer look at.
Thanks, Tom

[tomcarman]

Originally Posted by slowforty

Also vinegar is a GREAT grass killer. Weed Killer receipe one gallon vinegar. half cup of salt , three ounces of dawn dish soap

My wife would make sure I could never father a child if I did that! Reminds me when I was a kid my Dad took a carb about to rebuild and ran the parts through the dishwasher to clean them. They came out great. Unfortunately the dishwasher smelled of gas. My Dad already had 3 kids but never fathered another.

[deuce_roadster]

The Redi-Strip process uses electricity (DC) and the bath they immerse it in is a strong BASE solution with some other hazardous chemicals. There used to be a franchise in Seattle years ago in the 1980s. I had a 34 sedan delivery body dipped there and it only removes iron oxide and leaves good cast iron alone. I wish they had been a legitimate business as they would still be around but they were caught dumping the hazardous material into the storm drains which went into the Duwamish River near their industrial park. If there is a real Redi-Strip business still around near you, that would be the best solution for blocks, trans cases and anything ferrous metal.

[Veeder]

Great inf Freddie!!

[Pete]

Originally Posted by tomcarman

Pete, I am unfamiliar with "stripping". What is the process and what chemical(s) are used. Who does it in our area? I'm interested. I have 2 blocks I'd like to get a closer look at.
Thanks, Tom

I use: AmericanMetalCleaning.com
They are in north Portland.

They have several different processes.

[Scott52]

I used the electrolysis method to clean a couple of exhaust manifolds and some other small parts. They came very clean but after reading this thread, I have no idea about deep inside. My battery charger went kaput as well and I don't think the newer "smart" chargers work. So I have a 50 gal plastic drum, I used 6" x 6" cement reinforcing net which went completely around the inside of the drum and various PVC pipes to keep the parts from touching the grid. I would not be opposed to trying it again if I find a cheap older style battery charger, but not on blocks.

[Ol' Ron]

That looks pretty clean, I just see some surface rust. Have it baked cleaned and run it.
Gramps.