testing oil pump in motor

[FrankWest]

What do you think of this rube goldberg plan?
My oil pan is off but my oil pump is stuck into the block.
I was able to clean the oil pump screen with baseball cards.
If I dip head of oil pump in a jar with oil and hand crank the engine to see if pump drains oil will hand cranking generate enough motion to pump the oil from the jar? Can hand cranking too much without the pan connected damage the bearings?

[Joe K]

I like your hubris - but I'm VERY surprised you can't remove the oil pump from the block.

It's like all I can do to KEEP my pump in place with the oil pan removed.

Gosh, even to take out the distributor, and then the helical gear and it's spring mounted holder, and then put a rod down the distributor hole and give it a smack thereby hitting the top of the pump shaft.

Or even to do a partial implementation of your plan - remove the distributor, helical gear and carrier, and then with a flatted point stick TWIST the tang on the top of the pump and thereby simulate the engine in motion.

You'll make a mess of your floor, but you will prove out pump operation with no hazard to the rest of the components.

If you remove the spark plugs, you probably can't do enough damage to seriously compromise your engine - but it's a lot of work for what you want to accomplish?

FYI. Here is the oil pump. Note that the top is a "slip fit" into it's hole into the block. The only thing which keeps it from turning is a "peg" placed on the flat part and pointing up - and which engages its own little hole on the underside of the valve gallery.



And here is the helical gear and it's spring loaded carrier.



The "male" end to the right above, points down and plugs into the female top slot of the oil pump shaft.

Joe K

[darrylkmc]

FrankWest,

That plan is OK, and you will damage anything going this route.

Have you removed the 1/8" Pipe plug adjacent to the Oil Pump?

There is a chance that it could be holding your pump in place, as the Oil Pump should fall right out when you remove the pan.

You can check your Oil flow out of the port where the 1/8" Pipe plug was removed, since this is the first place the oil travels once it leaves the pump.

Darryl in Fairbanks

[CarlG]

The Oil Pump retainer isn't still in the block is it?

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by darrylkmc

FrankWest,

That plan is OK, and you will damage anything going this route.

Have you removed the 1/8" Pipe plug adjacent to the Oil Pump?

There is a chance that it could be holding your pump in place, as the Oil Pump should fall right out when you remove the pan.

You can check your Oil flow out of the port where the 1/8" Pipe plug was removed, since this is the first place the oil travels once it leaves the pump.

Darryl in Fairbanks

Way back at the beginning of oil pan change I tried to removed this plug....
I cannot! Eveb tried to deepen the slot to no avail, so I decided to leave it alone. Supposedly my car and engine has only 40k miles when it was put into storage. The pan was not too dirty. Seems to have good compression while cranking with plugs in and turns nice with plugs out I keep adding oil to spark plug holes to keep lubricated.
I don't want to monkey too much.. to make thing worse.

[darrylkmc]

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FrankWest,

You will need less oil for your test if you have the side valve cover removed, since the pump will be trying to fill the valve chamber, otherwise you will have to fill the valve chamber to overflow before you will see oil dripping from the mains, cam or timing gears area.

There are not many parts to the oil pump and you can remove the 4 cap screws and bottom plate. The drive gear and driven gears should slide right out.
With the driven gear out you can check the drive gear for side play, which will tell you the condition of the Oil Pump Bushings. Also closely examine the gears for pitting or anything that seems worn or out of place. I do not usually use a gasket on the bottom plate, unless it is needed for clearance, as in you do not want to place the gears into a bind.

Darryl in Fairbanks
33 degrees in the Interior

[hardtimes]

Hey Frank,
Well, we now know WHY you can not remove the oil pump !
IMO, if that 'plug' is screwed in TOOO tight, it will distort the pump shaft housing. Do you have engine out of car If not in a hurry, why not take engine out of car, so that you can work on getting that plug out properly and to handle other , more involved tasks easier ?
Anywy, as to your question...about the jar of oil...yes that will provide a very short shot of oil thru system. That stock Model A pump will empty that jar in very short order,eh ! Damage from doing it this way, NO, I can not see you doing any damage via hand cranking. As said, take plugs out first, to make it easier.

[CarlG]

I would bet that the bottom side of that "plug" has been peened over by the pump and is going to make it even harder to come out. Also, and very likely, whatever "plug" is in there is not the correct threads and has cross threaded, adding to the problem.

I don't know if drilling it and using an "easy-out" would work or not. And like hardtimes said, it's possibly distorting the pump shaft as well.

[James Rogers]

Why hand crank? Just remove the plugs and use the starter. It won't start and you will not be out of breath when you get done.

[Joe K]

Reaching for suggestions here - why not just undo the four bolts on the bottom of the pump, remove the cover, and drop the innards. There is only the two moving parts.

Or if they won't come out either, maybe that tells you something more?

A good pix of the internals of the pump is shown at http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/up...view-10115.pdf

Joe K

[1931 flamingo]

He's working on a "B". Are the pumps the same ??
Paul in CT

[darrylkmc]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

He's working on a "B". Are the pumps the same ??
Paul in CT

Model A and Model B Oil Pumps are Identical, with the following exceptions, regarding the Model B Oil Pump:

The hole where the oil discharges from the pump is enlarged.

The shaft of the drive gear is undercut between the bushings to increase flow.

This is addressed in the 1932 Service Bulletins, which I do not have a copy of at the moment.

Darryl in Fairbanks

[James Rogers]

If someone replaced the plug with a distributor hold down bolt it could look like the plug and be long enough to be against the pump housing. As stupid as it sounds, it could happen.

[FrankWest]

if the motor starts up and the oil pump does not work are there warning signs, sounds, smells before the engine is ruined? so I can turn the motor off?
I am not driving the car I would just be running it for several minutes in my garage.

[a-bone newby]

just a thought have good look at the crank gear. mine sat and the gear was corroded and took out the cam gear which I am in the midst of doing

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by James Rogers

Why hand crank? Just remove the plugs and use the starter. It won't start and you will not be out of breath when you get done.

I will go with your plan.
I am putting the battery in the car.
I have a clear plastic jar that I will fill with oil with the oil pump submersed supported on a jack under the car.
I will pour a little oil in the spark plug holes for lubrication
Then I will run the starter for a minute or so until I see the oil dissapear in the jar.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by FrankWest

I will go with your plan.
I am putting the battery in the car.
I have a clear plastic jar that I will fill with oil with the oil pump submersed supported on a jack under the car.
I will pour a little oil in the spark plug holes for lubrication
Then I will run the starter for a minute or so until I see the oil dissapear in the jar.

It Woiked!!!
Thanks gentlemen for all your help!
I couldn;t have done it without all your help.
Also allowed me to test my starter! and horn!
This was the first time I had a battery in the car.
The oil put sucked up dil than then I fed it MMO.
Now I will clean up under the car and block ro prepare for my oil pan installation!

Thanks again everyone! You're the greatest!!!