The Ford Barn

OL JENNY · 06-15-2013, 09:18 PM

While I have my rear backing plates removed to have rebuilt at Snyder's, I noticed the nut is gone on my rear spring center bolt, and the bolt has pulled up into the lower leaves. I assume it did not brake off, but either way I need to address the problem and I really don't like the thought of removing the rear spring without a center bolt. Does anybody have advice for what my options are, and if removal is required what safety steps do I need to change since I don't have the bolt. I have searched the sight, and read the C-clamps, safety chain, quality spring spreader----it does not sound fun, or a job for a novice like me.

Mike V. Florida · 06-15-2013, 10:07 PM

Unbolt everything, the weight of the car will keep it together. Jack up the car place the frame on jackstands. Remove the wheels lower the jack. This will lower the rear allowing hte springs to un spring slowly.

jw hash · 06-15-2013, 10:16 PM

leave all the weight on the spring remove the U bolts that hold the spring in. now get yourself some good jack stands and using a floor jack, Jack up the car and put the jack stands under the frame and lower the jack slowly it will release the spring as you lower it. if you do not have tall enough jack stands you might have to remove the wheels. at that point you can put a C clamp on the spring. and with a little luck if you can remove the bolt put a new bolt in and tighten it up cut off the access. jack it back up into place. and put thing back together.

Tom Endy · 06-15-2013, 11:08 PM

The rear spring can be lethal. Be very careful how you approach it. My suggestion would be to obtain a proper spring spreader. Put the car up on jack stands supporting the rear of the fame. Spread the spring with the spring spreader and un-hook both spring shackles. The spring will not go anywhere because it is bolted to the frame with the two U-bolts. Once the rear axle assembly is lowered and clear of the spring, collapse the spring spreader and remove it. The spring is then no longer lethal. Unbolt the two U-bolts and remove the spring from the car. You can take it over to a work bench and take it apart. You will probably find the bolt broke at the nut,

Tom Endy

SSsssteamer · 06-16-2013, 12:22 AM

I would follow Tom's advice. Been there, done that.

Mike V. Florida · 06-16-2013, 03:36 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Endy

The rear spring can be lethal. Be very careful how you approach it. My suggestion would be to obtain a proper spring spreader. Put the car up on jack stands supporting the rear of the fame. Spread the spring with the spring spreader and un-hook both spring shackles. The spring will not go anywhere because it is bolted to the frame with the two U-bolts. Once the rear axle assembly is lowered and clear of the spring, collapse the spring spreader and remove it. The spring is then no longer lethal. Unbolt the two U-bolts and remove the spring from the car. You can take it over to a work bench and take it apart. You will probably find the bolt broke at the nut,

Tom Endy

Will a spring spreader work when the center bolt is damaged?

James Rogers · 06-16-2013, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Will a spring spreader work when the center bolt is damaged?

Probably not. The spring will try to unload from the top and still have much energy to release and since the spreader is only going to hold the bottom spring it will try to come out. I like your solution better than this one since it unloads from the top.

OL JENNY · 06-16-2013, 07:51 AM

I have the backing plates off, so if I was to follow Mike V's approach, unbolting everything does that mean the shackles also or do I leave the bottom leaf attached? My goal is to replace the center bolt. If I am to remove the spring, how can I relieve the tension without spreading the bottom leaf?

QGolden · 06-16-2013, 09:03 AM

LEAVE THE SPRING ATTACHED TO THE SHACKLES!

Sorry to shout, but that is important. You can do what Mike and JW said. Just go slow. As the spring lowers from the frame, I might put some c clamps on it as a backup, and move them up to the center as it comes down. My center bolt was rotten, when I did mine, I used 4 clamps and "Hopscotched" them over each other as I could climb up the springs. If the spring get stuck coming down, do not hammer on it to dislodge it, Take a Bar and gingerly tweak it down from the sides.

Do not put any of your body parts (hands, fingers etc) between anything.

You do not need to release the tension to do the center bolt, once the spring is down, clamp the springs together, tap out the bolt, and replace.

TinCup · 06-16-2013, 09:30 AM

The link below will give you some reference points. This is a pictorial of when I pulled and replaced the spring in my coupe. SPRING SPREADER IS A GOOD THING!

Rear Spring Replacement

larrys40 · 06-16-2013, 09:38 AM

I have an alternate fix... which should work as long as the spring leaves haven't shifted...... I would cut a small square hole in the back hump pan over the crossmember.. I say small as you will probably have to make several cuts to get the location and hole big enough to see... but the goal is to try and drive old stud up (from the bottom) enough to get the square head out and then the the old bolt ( downward) what is left of it .... and replace with the new one.... (from the top of course).

I realize this puts a small hole in the pan but it won't hurt it and will not be seen.

test the old bolt to see how stuck it is by tapping it with a punch.. if it moves very easily I would put the new one in the hole and lightly tap it in driving out the old one at the same time... if it moves easily great.. .if not tap out the old one and then put in the new one.... I would say even if the threads get damaged on the new one you can cut them off the bottom and thread restore if necessary to get a nut on. I would think this is preferably to trying to lower/disassemble a spring under compression that will have to be put together anyway... Not sure if it needs service or restoration but that is your call.

It seems to me this is the least painful if the spring leaves are lined up or close... a taper drive punch may help. If successful carefully tighten endsuring the square on the new bolt fits the square on the crossmember. If so tighten until tight.... then retorque/tighten the rear spring hanger bolts. I would say do that first but then again it may cause the leaves to shift with a broken center bold and make it tougher to drive out and in new...
If successful with this don't forget to cut off the excess bolt once in.

Let us know how it works out.

Parting tip!! You might even bevel the end of the new bolt slightly grinding threads as it will help to line up the leaves if slightly off. A good 1/4 to 1/2" grind bevel should do the trick. Good luck!

Larry Shepard
St. Charles, MO

Brian T · 06-16-2013, 10:18 AM

I had the same thought as Larry posted , do some model As have a cover plate over the rear spring ? ---- I would use any old bolt or 5/16 rod to get things lined up.

redmodelt · 06-16-2013, 10:40 AM

If the nut is missing you would need to drive it up not down. I would try drilling a round hole instead of square. With a round hole you could use a drain plug like is used in later cars to fill the hole. Yes some A's have the hump in the pan under the rear seat.

QGolden · 06-16-2013, 10:44 AM

Yabut, they generally rust off from the bottom, how on earth are you gonna' get that square head to go down through the springs? It has to come up from the bottom. He might try to tap it up through from the bottom, up through the square hole in the frame without taking anything apart at all, but I suspect one would have to be real lucky for the bolt not to be stuck, and there is not a lot of hammer swinging room between the rear end and the crossmember once you get a punch in there.

Roger V · 06-16-2013, 11:44 AM

I had your problem and did Larry's method as the other options had some potential dangers in my opinion. I was fortunate to have a cloth-style cover over the crossmember. I drove the bolt upwards and out(made a short punch). From the top I used a large tapered drift to realign the upper to lower leaves. Made another drift out of round stock and trued what the tapered drift did. Installed the new bolt down with very little resistance(read no thread damage). Tightened the nut, cut the excess bolt off, and peened it. None of the above was rusty and I suppose a certain amount of luck helped............

larrys40 · 06-16-2013, 12:29 PM

Ok guys.. I forgot the line about driving it up first to remove the broken section.... then down.. I corrected my original post above. getting brain lapses at 52 you know!

IK have done this once and it was a piece of cake... otherwise.. removing the spring as it comes apart on a Model A rear spring (no problem on a v8) is troublesome and potentially dangerous. Even though you release the tension on a shackle once the rear axle is down as far as it can go.. there's still tension. You can only take it down so far as well. Watch your torque tube /brake cross shaft clearance depending on how far the car is up/down.
In my opinion I could have this done in an hour... or less...and with safety.. otherwise... it's much longer and more pain.
Thanks,
Larry

Tom Wesenberg · 06-16-2013, 07:42 PM

If the bolt is rusted off, then the spring should be removed, cleaned, grind the gouges, and grease the leaves. Might as well do it right and enjoy a much improved ride.

ctvpa · 06-16-2013, 08:09 PM

[QUOTE=larrys40;671764]I have an alternate fix... which should work as long as the spring leaves haven't shifted...... I would cut a small square hole in the back hump pan over the crossmember.. I say small as you will probably have to make several cuts to get the location and hole big enough to see... but the goal is to try and drive old stud up (from the bottom) enough to get the square head out and then the the old bolt ( downward) what is left of it .... and replace with the new one.... (from the top of course).

On restoration I found that this had been done to mine. There was a square hole right over the bolt. Other guys in the club say they have a hole there also.
When I redid the body I repaired the hole, but I wish I had kept it, someday I'm going to need it. I've had the car 37 years.

OL JENNY · 06-16-2013, 09:48 PM

Thanks to everyone who replied, I appreciate the time you gave to help me out. I now have a couple of options presented, and I will sleep on them and hope I make the correct decision. My backing plates are off, so now is the time to repair with one of the methods. I can see the end of the bolt, it is just up past the bottom leaf. I will post my results.

06-15-2013, 09:18 PM	#1
OL JENNY Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Muscatine, IA Posts: 223	Rear Spring Center Bolt Problem While I have my rear backing plates removed to have rebuilt at Snyder's, I noticed the nut is gone on my rear spring center bolt, and the bolt has pulled up into the lower leaves. I assume it did not brake off, but either way I need to address the problem and I really don't like the thought of removing the rear spring without a center bolt. Does anybody have advice for what my options are, and if removal is required what safety steps do I need to change since I don't have the bolt. I have searched the sight, and read the C-clamps, safety chain, quality spring spreader----it does not sound fun, or a job for a novice like me.

06-15-2013, 10:07 PM	#2
Mike V. Florida Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: South Florida Posts: 14,054	Re: Rear Spring Center Bolt Problem Unbolt everything, the weight of the car will keep it together. Jack up the car place the frame on jackstands. Remove the wheels lower the jack. This will lower the rear allowing hte springs to un spring slowly. __________________ What's right about America is that although we have a mess of problems, we have great capacity - intellect and resources - to do some thing about them. - Henry Ford II

06-15-2013, 10:16 PM	#3
jw hash Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Auburn Washington Posts: 2,552	Re: Rear Spring Center Bolt Problem leave all the weight on the spring remove the U bolts that hold the spring in. now get yourself some good jack stands and using a floor jack, Jack up the car and put the jack stands under the frame and lower the jack slowly it will release the spring as you lower it. if you do not have tall enough jack stands you might have to remove the wheels. at that point you can put a C clamp on the spring. and with a little luck if you can remove the bolt put a new bolt in and tighten it up cut off the access. jack it back up into place. and put thing back together.

06-15-2013, 11:08 PM	#4
Tom Endy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern California Posts: 3,131	Re: Rear Spring Center Bolt Problem The rear spring can be lethal. Be very careful how you approach it. My suggestion would be to obtain a proper spring spreader. Put the car up on jack stands supporting the rear of the fame. Spread the spring with the spring spreader and un-hook both spring shackles. The spring will not go anywhere because it is bolted to the frame with the two U-bolts. Once the rear axle assembly is lowered and clear of the spring, collapse the spring spreader and remove it. The spring is then no longer lethal. Unbolt the two U-bolts and remove the spring from the car. You can take it over to a work bench and take it apart. You will probably find the bolt broke at the nut, Tom Endy

06-16-2013, 12:22 AM	#5
SSsssteamer Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Sedro-Woolley, WA Posts: 1,023	Re: Rear Spring Center Bolt Problem I would follow Tom's advice. Been there, done that.

06-16-2013, 07:51 AM	#8
OL JENNY Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Muscatine, IA Posts: 223	Re: Rear Spring Center Bolt Problem I have the backing plates off, so if I was to follow Mike V's approach, unbolting everything does that mean the shackles also or do I leave the bottom leaf attached? My goal is to replace the center bolt. If I am to remove the spring, how can I relieve the tension without spreading the bottom leaf?

06-16-2013, 09:03 AM	#9
QGolden Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Alton, NH Posts: 1,231	Re: Rear Spring Center Bolt Problem LEAVE THE SPRING ATTACHED TO THE SHACKLES! Sorry to shout, but that is important. You can do what Mike and JW said. Just go slow. As the spring lowers from the frame, I might put some c clamps on it as a backup, and move them up to the center as it comes down. My center bolt was rotten, when I did mine, I used 4 clamps and "Hopscotched" them over each other as I could climb up the springs. If the spring get stuck coming down, do not hammer on it to dislodge it, Take a Bar and gingerly tweak it down from the sides. Do not put any of your body parts (hands, fingers etc) between anything. You do not need to release the tension to do the center bolt, once the spring is down, clamp the springs together, tap out the bolt, and replace. __________________ It's not what people think they know that will hurt them, it is what they think they know that aint so! -Mark Twain. It is the very things that we think we know, that keep us from learning what we should know.- Unknown

06-16-2013, 09:30 AM	#10
TinCup Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: OKC / Tonkawa, Ok. Posts: 1,977	Re: Rear Spring Center Bolt Problem The link below will give you some reference points. This is a pictorial of when I pulled and replaced the spring in my coupe. SPRING SPREADER IS A GOOD THING! Rear Spring Replacement __________________ Oklahoma City Model A Restorers Group.

06-16-2013, 09:38 AM	#11
larrys40 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: St Charles , Missouri Posts: 1,998	Re: Rear Spring Center Bolt Problem I have an alternate fix... which should work as long as the spring leaves haven't shifted...... I would cut a small square hole in the back hump pan over the crossmember.. I say small as you will probably have to make several cuts to get the location and hole big enough to see... but the goal is to try and drive old stud up (from the bottom) enough to get the square head out and then the the old bolt ( downward) what is left of it .... and replace with the new one.... (from the top of course). I realize this puts a small hole in the pan but it won't hurt it and will not be seen. test the old bolt to see how stuck it is by tapping it with a punch.. if it moves very easily I would put the new one in the hole and lightly tap it in driving out the old one at the same time... if it moves easily great.. .if not tap out the old one and then put in the new one.... I would say even if the threads get damaged on the new one you can cut them off the bottom and thread restore if necessary to get a nut on. I would think this is preferably to trying to lower/disassemble a spring under compression that will have to be put together anyway... Not sure if it needs service or restoration but that is your call. It seems to me this is the least painful if the spring leaves are lined up or close... a taper drive punch may help. If successful carefully tighten endsuring the square on the new bolt fits the square on the crossmember. If so tighten until tight.... then retorque/tighten the rear spring hanger bolts. I would say do that first but then again it may cause the leaves to shift with a broken center bold and make it tougher to drive out and in new... If successful with this don't forget to cut off the excess bolt once in. Let us know how it works out. Parting tip!! You might even bevel the end of the new bolt slightly grinding threads as it will help to line up the leaves if slightly off. A good 1/4 to 1/2" grind bevel should do the trick. Good luck! Larry Shepard St. Charles, MO Last edited by larrys40; 06-16-2013 at 12:31 PM.

06-16-2013, 10:18 AM	#12
Brian T Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: San Diego,Ca Posts: 1,377	Re: Rear Spring Center Bolt Problem I had the same thought as Larry posted , do some model As have a cover plate over the rear spring ? ---- I would use any old bolt or 5/16 rod to get things lined up. __________________ Nothing can be made foolproof, ---- fools are ingenious bastards.

06-16-2013, 10:40 AM	#13
redmodelt Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Portland OR Posts: 6,341	Re: Rear Spring Center Bolt Problem If the nut is missing you would need to drive it up not down. I would try drilling a round hole instead of square. With a round hole you could use a drain plug like is used in later cars to fill the hole. Yes some A's have the hump in the pan under the rear seat.

06-16-2013, 10:44 AM	#14
QGolden Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Alton, NH Posts: 1,231	Re: Rear Spring Center Bolt Problem Yabut, they generally rust off from the bottom, how on earth are you gonna' get that square head to go down through the springs? It has to come up from the bottom. He might try to tap it up through from the bottom, up through the square hole in the frame without taking anything apart at all, but I suspect one would have to be real lucky for the bolt not to be stuck, and there is not a lot of hammer swinging room between the rear end and the crossmember once you get a punch in there. __________________ It's not what people think they know that will hurt them, it is what they think they know that aint so! -Mark Twain. It is the very things that we think we know, that keep us from learning what we should know.- Unknown

06-16-2013, 11:44 AM	#15
Roger V Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,593	Re: Rear Spring Center Bolt Problem I had your problem and did Larry's method as the other options had some potential dangers in my opinion. I was fortunate to have a cloth-style cover over the crossmember. I drove the bolt upwards and out(made a short punch). From the top I used a large tapered drift to realign the upper to lower leaves. Made another drift out of round stock and trued what the tapered drift did. Installed the new bolt down with very little resistance(read no thread damage). Tightened the nut, cut the excess bolt off, and peened it. None of the above was rusty and I suppose a certain amount of luck helped............

06-16-2013, 12:29 PM	#16
larrys40 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: St Charles , Missouri Posts: 1,998	Re: Rear Spring Center Bolt Problem Ok guys.. I forgot the line about driving it up first to remove the broken section.... then down.. I corrected my original post above. getting brain lapses at 52 you know! IK have done this once and it was a piece of cake... otherwise.. removing the spring as it comes apart on a Model A rear spring (no problem on a v8) is troublesome and potentially dangerous. Even though you release the tension on a shackle once the rear axle is down as far as it can go.. there's still tension. You can only take it down so far as well. Watch your torque tube /brake cross shaft clearance depending on how far the car is up/down. In my opinion I could have this done in an hour... or less...and with safety.. otherwise... it's much longer and more pain. Thanks, Larry Last edited by larrys40; 06-16-2013 at 12:37 PM.

06-16-2013, 07:42 PM	#17
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Rear Spring Center Bolt Problem If the bolt is rusted off, then the spring should be removed, cleaned, grind the gouges, and grease the leaves. Might as well do it right and enjoy a much improved ride.

06-16-2013, 08:09 PM	#18
ctvpa Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 479	Re: Rear Spring Center Bolt Problem [QUOTE=larrys40;671764]I have an alternate fix... which should work as long as the spring leaves haven't shifted...... I would cut a small square hole in the back hump pan over the crossmember.. I say small as you will probably have to make several cuts to get the location and hole big enough to see... but the goal is to try and drive old stud up (from the bottom) enough to get the square head out and then the the old bolt ( downward) what is left of it .... and replace with the new one.... (from the top of course). On restoration I found that this had been done to mine. There was a square hole right over the bolt. Other guys in the club say they have a hole there also. When I redid the body I repaired the hole, but I wish I had kept it, someday I'm going to need it. I've had the car 37 years.

06-16-2013, 09:48 PM	#19
OL JENNY Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Muscatine, IA Posts: 223	Re: Rear Spring Center Bolt Problem Thanks to everyone who replied, I appreciate the time you gave to help me out. I now have a couple of options presented, and I will sleep on them and hope I make the correct decision. My backing plates are off, so now is the time to repair with one of the methods. I can see the end of the bolt, it is just up past the bottom leaf. I will post my results.