Serial number size

[Paps31]

Odd request, but bear with me.

I’m planning on restamping my block (needs to pass VIN inspection to get a Kentucky title). I want to get it done when I get back from holiday travel, but I forgot to triple-check the size of the very faint numbers that currently exist on the engine.

I want to say 1/4”, but I want to be sure before I order from McMaster-Carr.

Anyone feel like running out to their garage with a ruler? [emoji16]

Thanks in advance.


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[Kurt in NJ]

Depending on date of manufacture some of the numbers have a different font from normal number stamps ---- there are pictures in the service bulletins

[rfitzpatrick]

I'll be darn! Mine is 1/4 inch. Fla never even came out to see

[JOHN CT]

If you’re not going for judging. I wouldn’t think any size as long as someone can read it and Without leaning on the fender.

[F.M.]

Originally Posted by rfitzpatrick

I'll be darn! Mine is 1/4 inch. Fla never even came out to see

Florida has a so called inspection that is a total "JOKE" ..The same with the YOM Registration with the original issued Fla Plates..

[Charlie Stephens]

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A lot depends on where you are coming from. I am from California. I would go with the very faint numbers. Sometimes they can be raised with acid. Do the faint numbers appear to match your current title? Note that in addition to the size there is a special font used and a star at each end. If you are trying to change the number be advised that there are some very strong federal and probably state laws about tampering with VINS. Several years ago California stopped using engine numbers and started issuing VIN tags that they attached to the door jam.

Charlie Stephens

[woodiewagon46]

A company called Resto Stamps makes the unique 1,6,9 and the star.

[WHN]

We have a rebuilt engine in our 1929. Old engine number has been ground off and the frame number for car was re stamped on engine to match all of our paperwork for the last 50 years. Car has been register in N.Y. and Conn. No one has ever question the style of stamping, just confirmed number.

My experience has been that you need confirming back up paperwork. In states like Connecticut titles are not issued to cars over 20 model years old. A Model A would be sold with a bill of sale, and a current or past registration certificate showing VIN.

Engine number should match paperwork. Also, our engine number approval date is June 15, 1929, date on firewall is June 18, 1929. This could all help with DMV person who has questions.

I don’t know if I have helped you. As mentioned earlier, if not a point car, I think you just need to have an engine number that can be read and makes sense to the car it’s on. With back up paperwork. Enjoy.

[Paps31]

Originally Posted by WHN

We have a rebuilt engine in our 1929. Old engine number has been ground off and the frame number for car was re stamped on engine to match all of our paperwork for the last 50 years. Car has been register in N.Y. and Conn. No one has ever question the style of stamping, just confirmed number.

My experience has been that you need confirming back up paperwork. In states like Connecticut titles are not issued to cars over 20 model years old. A Model A would be sold with a bill of sale, and a current or past registration certificate showing VIN.

Engine number should match paperwork. Also, our engine number approval date is June 15, 1929, date on firewall is June 18, 1929. This could all help with DMV person who has questions.

I don’t know if I have helped you. As mentioned earlier, if not a point car, I think you just need to have an engine number that can be read and makes sense to the car it’s on. With back up paperwork. Enjoy.

In Kentucky, a vehicle must pass a sheriff’s VIN inspection before a title can be issued.

I have the original title, last issued in 1964 in the state of West Virginia with the original serial number. The motor was replaced during restoration between 1964-67.

FWIW, I have the original motor sitting in my shed. It matches the serial number on the title, though it’d take an archaeologist to read it.

The number on the running engine that’s inside the car has about two legible digits, which is just enough to know it doesn’t match the title.

Without a matching number INSIDE the car, Kentucky is inclined to issue a salvage title. No thanks.

Since I have two engines, one original, one replacement — neither of which have legible serial numbers — but I need matching numbers to obtain a title ... here I am, innocently inquiring about stamp sizes for no particular reason. [emoji56]




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[WHN]

If it was my car, I would make sure numbers matched. Engine number should match paperwork.

You, I don’t believe can get in trouble. You have original engine with the correct P/N VIN.

Have you confirmed frame number? Just a question.

I believe in killing them with paperwork. You can’t question confirming documentation.

[Paps31]

Originally Posted by WHN

If it was my car, I would make sure numbers matched. Engine number should match paperwork.

You, I don’t believe can get in trouble. You have original engine with the correct P/N VIN.

Have you confirmed frame number? Just a question.

I believe in killing them with paperwork. You can’t question confirming documentation.

Yep, that’s the plan. It will all match when I arrive at the inspection station.

I haven’t verified the frame number. I imagine it’s also not legible and that’s a lot of work for potentially nothing. Perhaps one day I’ll find out. In any case, the frame WILL match the engine number on that day.




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[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by rfitzpatrick

I'll be darn! Mine is 1/4 inch. Fla never even came out to see

Did the car have a title when you bought it? If yes then there is no reason to look at it. Same with a modern car, if it has a title then only paperwork needs to be done.

[F.M.]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

Did the car have a title when you bought it? If yes then there is no reason to look at it. Same with a modern car, if it has a title then only paperwork needs to be done.

Mike, I guess you have never had dealings with the Green Cove Springs Tax office in Fla.. I had it all, Title, old Tags & Reg. Still had to wait for a look see & go back again.. And when they looked at my 1928 A She was lost, would not have know an A engine from a SBC. and said looks fine signed papers and left..

[Boston Bruce]

Resto Stamps link here.

[Paps31]

Originally Posted by Boston Bruce

Resto Stamps link here.

Ordered! A little more expensive than McMaster, but accurate. Thanks, fellas.

I will soon have a “numbers matching” car. [emoji16]


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[1crosscut]

When you do stamp the numbers use a relatively stout hammer and don't be a sissy about giving them a good thump. It's very difficult to get a stamp set just right for a second try to correct a number that isn't stamped all the way the first time.

[F.M.]

Originally Posted by 1crosscut

When you do stamp the numbers use a relatively stout hammer and don't be a sissy about giving them a good thump. It's very difficult to get a stamp set just right for a second try to correct a number that isn't stamped all the way the first time.

I agree, But, & its a big BUT, Don't stamp it to close to the top of the block, it will swell the metal and can cause a head gasket leak !!. I have seen this done several times..After stamping run a fine file over the top edge of the block (if possible) to make sure it has not lifted any..

[CarlG]

I got my engine stamp set from a guy that listed them here on the Swap Meet. It has all the different fonts plus the star.

[Chris Haynes]

Despite the fact that altering any manufacturers serial number is a crime and can case you to lose your vehicle and possibly go to prison.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

Despite the fact that altering any manufacturers serial number is a crime and can case you to lose your vehicle and possibly go to prison.

That is sort of what I was trying to say in Post #6. I like your phrasing better.

GOOGLE "is it illegal to tamper with a VIN". It is sort of like playing the lottery except if you win you lose. I don't play the lottery.

Charlie Stephens

[1crosscut]

One sort of gets into a quandary when it comes to matching engine numbers. So you have a car with the original engine in it and you throw a rod through the side of the block damaging it beyond repair.
Oh well I no longer have a matching engine number so I should just junk the car and get another car that does??
Better in my opinion to rebuild a replacement engine and stamp the numbers to match the old identification numbers. There is essentially nothing different between engines other than the identification numbers.
The intent of re-stamping is not to commit fraud but to maintain the proper documentation of a vehicle.
A technicality but these aren't actually VIN's but are serial or identification numbers. I'm probably off on this but I understand the term VIN was not officially recognized by the government until somewhere around 1981.

[WHN]

Originally Posted by Charlie Stephens

That is sort of what I was trying to say in Post #6. I like your phrasing better.

GOOGLE "is it illegal to tamper with a VIN". It is sort of like playing the lottery except if you win you lose. I don't play the lottery.

Charlie Stephens

There is not a good answer here for 90 year old cars.

Prior to 1954 there was not a true standard for VIN’s on U.S. manufactured vehicles. The frame number was the norm. You can go on from there depending on the manufacture.

The problem we have today is 100 years of restorations, barn finds, J.C.Witney or Sears engine swaps, one car made from three, etc.

I would argue the frame number on a Model A is the real true VIN number. Now you have to show that number to you local DMV agent or insurance adjuster.

If your paperwork does not conform to the only readily available readable number. Than you have a problem. “Body off frame”?

How many Model T’s and/or Model A’s have had different engines installed in them that have had there P/N modified to match the frame number which back in the day was considered the VIN.

If you have seen the frame VIN number or can trace ownership back with paperwork that shows consist VIN. Do we all really think marking another part of the car with the correct VIN is a major problem.

If so, we all better be ready to remove our car bodies to confirm ownership.

That’s my soap box for today.

[Paps31]

Originally Posted by WHN

There is not a good answer here for 90 year old cars.



Prior to 1954 there was not a true standard for VIN’s on U.S. manufactured vehicles. The frame number was the norm. You can go on from there depending on the manufacture.



The problem we have today is 100 years of restorations, barn finds, J.C.Witney or Sears engine swaps, one car made from three, etc.



I would argue the frame number on a Model A is the real true VIN number. Now you have to show that number to you local DMV agent or insurance adjuster.



If your paperwork does not conform to the only readily available readable number. Than you have a problem. “Body off frame”?



How many Model T’s and/or Model A’s have had different engines installed in them that have had there P/N modified to match the frame number which back in the day was considered the VIN.



If you have seen the frame VIN number or can trace ownership back with paperwork that shows consist VIN. Do we all really think marking another part of the car with the correct VIN is a major problem.



If so, we all better be ready to remove our car bodies to confirm ownership.



That’s my soap box for today.

This.

The bureaucracy of 2018 could not have been predicted in 1931. “Standardization” — in as much as it existed at the time — has changed.

I guess I didn’t realize that every Model A on the road has the original engine with perfectly legible stampings, and I’m alone in this quandary, a great pioneer of this very issue.


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[Chris Haynes]

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...ctionNum=10751.

[Paps31]

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...ctionNum=10751.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯



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[WHN]

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Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...ctionNum=10751.

I really don’t know why anyone would post something like this but to make other people feel that they had done something terribly wrong.

I will just say again. If you own a Model A Ford, take your car body off the frame and confirm the VIN number. That is the ONLY way you will know for sure. Leave it off, because anyone might also want to know the true VIN.

Our maybe check the pre 1954 federal regulations on vehicle identification.

Merry Christmas to everyone.

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by WHN

I really don’t know why anyone would post something like this but to make other people feel that they had done something terribly wrong.

I will just say again. If you own a Model A Ford, take your car body off the frame and confirm the VIN number. That is the ONLY way you will know for sure. Leave it off, because anyone might also want to know the true VIN.

Our maybe check the pre 1954 federal regulations on vehicle identification.

Merry Christmas to everyone.

Someone would post something like this to warn people of the possible problems that could occur when they do something they consider to be innocent. I like to know the potential consequences before I do something so I can consider whether or not I should do it. Thank you Chris Hayes for posting.

In California they do not currently go by the number on the frame. Once you have established you own the vehicle they will attach a number plate to the for that will be used to identify the vehicle in the future (see attached photo of he identification plate on my door jam rotated ninety degrees).

Charlie Stephens

[Paps31]

The manufacturer’s manual states that the engine number is the serial number. The engine number is not legible, therefore the vehicle in effect has no serial number.

There’s the possibility that it also has a frame number, and there’s an even stronger possibility that it’s also not legible.

Laws don’t fit every situation. I’ve been comfortable with that assessment for a very long time.


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[F.M.]

What do you do in that crazy state if you lift the frame and find the # either has been ground off or rusted to bad to read ?? You also have a engine that has #s that dont match your Rhode Island title.

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by F.M.

What do you do in that crazy state if you lift the frame and find the # either has been ground off or rusted to bad to read ?? You also have a engine that has #s that dont match your Rhode Island title.

Then the state will investigate it, by sending it to the CHP for inspection. After that, if the CHP determines that it isn't stolen, they will assign a number that would be put on the door jamb. If it is stolen you lose it.

[WHN]

Prior to 1954 there were no Vehicle Identification Numbers on cars regulated by the U. S. Government.

What we had was an unregulated system of manufactures putting what they sometimes called part numbers on many different places in there cars.

The number placed on the frame was up until 1954 the most excepted real car number for most manufactures. They did not have to be easily seen as is the case today.

The engine number on a Model A Ford is the production number for engines at that time. It was used as the cars part number when installed in car being marked on frame. We all know this.

Engines get changed, on 90 year old cars, maybe many times. Frames ideally do not get changed. Using today’s terminology, your frame number is what today would be called a VIN.

90 years ago the number on the Model A engine was considered a part number.

Since that time many changes have taken place with VIN’s, including standardization after 1955. Other upgrades and improvements have been made since than, in 1980’s and 1990’s.

Different states have also added there own requirements. Some states have titles, some do not on cars the age of ours.

If you have no paperwork, your in trouble no matter what state you are in. If you have supporting documentation, in most states that should be all that is needed. Most just want to verify that your numbers match. California is one of the most difficult states for registering cars.

The VIN requirements that manufactures have to meet today have no relation to pre 1954 cars. Changing engines and part numbers 90 years ago was not a big thing. Engine rebuilders did it. Changing frame numbers would have been different.

I think we are making more of this than we should. In most states, if the number on the engine matches the number on the paperwork, your home free.

I’m done, I promise. Happy Holidays,

Bill

[Paps31]

I live in a state that does not issue VIN plates like the one shown above.

I live in a state that does, however, require a “VIN inspection” wherein the number on the existing title must match the number on the car. If not, all the paperwork has to be verified and a salvage title will be issued. This car is a survivor, a family heirloom and nearly all-original — I’m not marring it with a “salvage” title because of laws that don’t allow for the existence of a car this old.

The title is legitimate, the signatures are legitimate, the bill of sale is legitimate, the purchase was legitimate. You just can’t read the damn numbers.

I’ve found a solution to that problem. End of story.


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[WHN]

Enjoy your car and the Holidays.

Bill

[Paps31]

Happy Holidays to all!


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[Mike V. Florida]

This thread really morphed, hasn't it?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Paps31

The manufacturer’s manual states that the engine number is the serial number.

If you don't mind me asking, which "manufacturer's manual" states this, -and where might this manual be found?

[Brian T]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

If you don't mind me asking, which "manufacturer's manual" states this, -and where might this manual be found?

Hi Brent,
Its found on the 2nd page of the owners manual at the very bottom.

[Paps31]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

If you don't mind me asking, which "manufacturer's manual" states this, -and where might this manual be found?

As Brian said, page 2 of the manufacturer’s original owner’s manual.





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[rotorwrench]

All I can add to this thread is that folks looking for serial number stamps that match Ford characters need to ask only about stamps and where to purchase them. DO NOT mention what you intend to do with those stamps. KR Wilson used to make them for "Ford Dealers" back in the day but there was always a way for the public to get them as well.


Different states use different publications to ID antique serial numbers and some specifically mention frame numbers. Texas requires at minimum, a pencil rubbing of the number on the frame. This is a problem for some GM owners since the engine number was the only number on the vehicle for many an old chevy.

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Putting the correct number on the legitimate engine in your legitimate car is not "altering the manufacturer's serial number" in any way.

California's laws are different. Stay out of that state. Don't listen to anybody from that state. Don't let your daughter marry anybody from that state. Anything you eat or use in that state probably has a warning that you will get cancer.

Of course I may be biased, being from Minnesota where everybody is above average.....

[Licensed to kill]

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Lurker

Putting the correct number on the legitimate engine in your legitimate car is not "altering the manufacturer's serial number" in any way.

That is my thinking as well. To those that warn of the legal implications of "altering the VIN in any way", are you suggesting that grinding off the VIN from a replacement engine and restamping it to match the number from the original engine or frame is Illegal??. If so, then when registering the car, do you use the frame number or the replacement engine number? If you use the engine number (because that is the visible one) what happens when the VIN is discovered to be for a 1930 coupe and your car is a 1931 sedan?. If you use the PROPER frame number, would you not fail an inspection because the VIN on the engine doesn't match the registration?. Seems to me that you are just looking for trouble by NOT updating the engine VIN to match the car.

California's laws are different. Stay out of that state. Don't listen to anybody from that state. Don't let your daughter marry anybody from that state. Anything you eat or use in that state probably has a warning that you will get cancer.

Of course I may be biased, being from Minnesota where everybody is above average.....

Sound advice.

[triumphleroy]

Texas used the engine number as the Vehicle Id Number until around 1951 I believe ? The tile came in an envelope that told you to raise your hood and check to be sure your title matched the ENGINE NUMBER !

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Brian T

Hi Brent,
Its found on the 2nd page of the owners manual at the very bottom.

Originally Posted by Paps31

As Brian said, page 2 of the manufacturer’s original owner’s manual.





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Thanks guys for responding. I knew it was listed in the Instruction Book, but I read above where it was stated to be in a "manufacturer's manual" --which I had spent time searching at the archives and had not seen a Manufacturer's Manual other than foreman's logs had serial numbers listed. I thought maybe there was a different book. Also, what is an Owner's Manual? When did Ford begin using that term for the Model-A??

[Paps31]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Thanks guys for responding. I knew it was listed in the Instruction Book, but I read above where it was stated to be in a "manufacturer's manual" --which I had spent time searching at the archives and had not seen a Manufacturer's Manual other than foreman's logs had serial numbers listed. I thought maybe there was a different book. Also, what is an Owner's Manual? When did Ford begin using that term for the Model-A??

Manufacturer’s manual, owner’s manual, instruction book, serial number, engine number, VIN number ...

WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?

The obvious answer ...




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[M.W.Miller]

When using the stamps first practice on a piece of masking tape to line the numbers up and make good impressions. then transfer to your frame or engine block. and use a hammer with good surface area.

[Chris Haynes]

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Originally Posted by triumphleroy

Texas used the engine number as the Vehicle Id Number until around 1951 I believe ? The tile came in an envelope that told you to raise your hood and check to be sure your title matched the ENGINE NUMBER !

V8 Flatties had no engine number. The number was on the transmission. Henry was a proponent of interchangeable engines.

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Thanks guys for responding. I knew it was listed in the Instruction Book, but I read above where it was stated to be in a "manufacturer's manual" --which I had spent time searching at the archives and had not seen a Manufacturer's Manual other than foreman's logs had serial numbers listed. I thought maybe there was a different book. Also, what is an Owner's Manual? When did Ford begin using that term for the Model-A??

Simply put it is a manual supplied by the manufacturer. I'm sorry if my lack of using the correct term confused you.

[Cool Hand Lurker]

Here is a link to the Instruction Manual PDF
http://www.motormayhem.net/wp-upload...ion-Manual.pdf

[Russ B]

I just found a proper set of stamps on eBay after looking for a while. It even has the A and the star, and both 1’s , a 6 and a 9. I will check if it has the late 6-9, when I get it,but I could see the early 6/9 in the photo.

I am getting ready for my Terry Burtz block. Twenty years ago a CA CHP Vin verifier officer insisted on “blue plating” my car, even with the original engine number matching the registration. So the engine stamp number is for my satisfaction as my dad bought the car new.

But eBay is another source for stamps, ...just have to be more patient until a proper set shows up. ...and you need to look at the fonts carefully before buying.

[Gene F]

Stamping an engine while it is still in the car is a challenge. Or so I hear....

[Chris Haynes]

Although it is a common practice it is illegal to remove or modify a manufacturers identification number. Meet the wrong LEO and you could have a very bad day.

[Ted Duke]

Model A numbers are NOT a VIN. Rebuilders commonly restamp them after rebuilding.

[Cool Hand Lurker]

If the engine number is the same as on the title, WHY would any officer ask about it in the first place? Does California assume that everybody is a car thief? Also if you are replacing the engine, at that point it is only a replacement part. Only an idiot would put a part on with a wrong number for that car. Don't do it. The only thing you are doing is giving the officer reason to believe the car is stolen. He then has no choice but to impound the car until the judge tells him what to do. Wrong number, wrong outcome. Correct the number and don't start an investigation for no reason at all. COMMON SENSE.

[BrianH]

This seems like something you do and just don't tell anybody.

[katy]

FWIW, the booklet that came w/my 1951 Ford says "Owners Manual" on the front cover.

[Ernie Vitucci]

I lived in California for 50 years...The state people were always a pain in the ass. Arizona is a much nicer place to live and much less expensive place to live...Ernie in Arizona

[JayJay]

California DMV is, indeed, a nightmare. I'm sure we all have DMV stories, but here's mine:

After my Dad died (2014) I sought to transfer title on his and my Mom's car to me so that I could save on insurance (use my multi-car discount, as I was the only driver). My Mom at the time was 94 years old, blind, deaf and had pretty severe dementia. The title required both signatures to transfer. So I went to DMV armed with a copy of my Dad's death certificate and the power of attorney from my Mom specifically stating that I had the authority to act on her behalf for automotive (among other things) matters. Should be straightforward, right?

Nope. The DMV opined that since my Mom was alive, she alone had the authority to sign the affadavit of my Dad's death making her the sole owner. I tried to tell them that she was 94 years old, blind, deaf, had dementia and was confined to a memory care facility, and could not see where to sign, or unerstand what she was signing, and that I had the authority under the POA to sign for her. Nope, she had to sign. Next person...

Went back and forth over multiple visits with more forms, and different people telling me different things, until I finally got with someone with some logic and empathy. So I took my Mom to the DMV, held her hand while she signed an "X", filled out a witness statement that I had witnessed her "X" as a valid signature, and finally we got the title transferred to me. It only took three visits (each of which was a half day because I live an hour's drive from where my Mom lived). In hindsight I should have waited until she died, but I wanted to put the car on my policy to save several hundred dollars a year.

On a more positive note, I've never had anyone blink an eye about registering a Model A, even thought the engine number isn't 14 digits long line the computer wants.


JayJay

[brokenspoke]

Plus saying your intentions on the internet....pricless

[Gene F]

I just wonder if it's almost safer just to take an existing registered car over to the inspection station, and ask for the state to assign a vin number? I have a streetrod that was assigned a number in West Virginia (yes retained the year), and Ohio recognized that no questions asked. Before we did that though, we validated that with the Ohio State Highway Patrol inspection station. They said yes no problem, just needs to have a factor VIN, or a state inspection vin from any state. On the other hand, I hate to open up a can of worms...