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11-16-2018, 10:09 AM | #1 |
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Brake Adjustment
I believe that Ford changed the brake adjustment procedure for the A in the early 1930's. Does anyone have a link or copy of this?
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11-16-2018, 10:12 AM | #2 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Check the service bulletins, should be in there.
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11-16-2018, 11:12 AM | #3 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
The last (and only) service bulletin during the Model A years for adjusting brakes was January of 1928 (service bulletin page #202).
There MAY have been one after Model A production that applied to the Model A when Ford figured out that having the rear brakes come on first was a big mistake. If you install one of Flathead Ted's full floater kits, he gives instructions on how to adjust the brake rods so that the majority of the braking gets done by the fronts like "modern" cars. The combination of having full floating brakes AND front brakes coming on first transforms the braking of a Model A.
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11-20-2018, 05:08 PM | #4 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
When I redid my brakes earlier this year, I used the "Brake Buddy" and a modified Les Andrews procedure so both front and rear brakes are applied the same
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11-21-2018, 01:48 PM | #5 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Confusion about brake rod length caused by the service bulletins and the Les Andrews book is what causes a lot of model A's to have poor brakes . The length of the brake levers on the backing plates is what controls when the brakes , back to front activate . Model A brakes are a simple common sense setup . If slack is allowed to remain in the brake rods because of incorrect adjustment , the brakes can never work at optimum level . In other words, it doesn't much matter how many parts are replaced or how much money is spent , if the brake rods and cross shaft are setup incorrectly the brakes will be less effective than original .
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11-21-2018, 02:44 PM | #6 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
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I know many on this site will not approve any alteration to what Henry did but Henry didn't drive on roads choked with so many idiots as we have today. What is the reasoned opinion of others?
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11-21-2018, 03:10 PM | #7 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Does it HAVE to be reasoned?
I believe that Henry just didn't know when the Model A was being designed that the front brakes should be doing 75% of the vehicle's stopping force. 4 wheel brakes were a pretty new thing in 1928. A few years after the A, however, the industry got it figured out and put bigger brakes and proportioned the braking force to the front. It has been that way ever since. Lots of info on front vs rear braking on the net. Here's one... http://knowhow.napaonline.com/front-...he-difference/ You can set up your brakes as Henry did and if you have never driven an A set up with a front brake bias instead of the stock rear bias, you'll be happy.
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11-21-2018, 03:47 PM | #8 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
This string is the 1st I've seen that says to adjust so front brakes lock up before back. Am confused - wouldn't this method be dangerous in gravel/dirt/pea gravel?
In the day unless you lived in town/city most driving was not on paved roads. |
11-21-2018, 04:28 PM | #9 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Your concerns were a hot topic for debate back when front brakes were the coming thing. The concern was the loss of steering when the front wheels are locked. That is still a valid concern today (the laws of physics haven't changed!) but we spend most of our time these days on sealed roads so the front brakes can take way more braking before they lock. I will be adjusting the brakes so the front and back come on at the same time.
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11-21-2018, 04:56 PM | #10 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
People can make whatever mods that they like and I have no problem . My mention of longer brake levers was that model A's have longer rear brake levers . The leverage of the longer levers cause the rear brakes to activate quicker and should have more power . The rear brake bias is built in because of the longer brake levers .
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11-21-2018, 06:04 PM | #11 | |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Quote:
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11-21-2018, 07:18 PM | #12 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
I also use the floating lower pin in the front lower brake wedges . This setup helps center the lower front brake shoes .
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11-21-2018, 07:35 PM | #13 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
I usually adjust them for equal or maybe slightly less lock on the fronts from a full lock on the rears. Yes you want to be able to steer the car as well. The stock levers on front and rear properly adjusted brake with the emphasis on the rear more but with increased pedal pressure they can all lock when adjusted to do so.
The key as Purdy said is to have the cross shaft 12 and 6 oclock on the levers and slack taken out on the rear rods and levers for proper adjustment. I do mine on jackstands and adjust all wheels following proper wedge adjustment and drag while the pedal is at progressively more pedal pressure intervals. At an inch and a half or so down on the pedal they should lock and stop the car well. The car should track straight on a hard stop no veering left or right. If it does you need to check your tire pressures first and brake adjustments to ensure a straight track outcome. I can lock them up and have actually smokes the tires to a stop on my tudor. Key is proper rebuilding and restoration of the entire system, using good soft molded lining these days with a good cast iron brake drum. You will be amazed how well they can stop. I've done many brake jobs and haven't had any complaints yet. I typically use Randy Gross's brake drums and have had excellent success. I will be putting on a brake seminar at the MARC meet in Dearborn 2019. Looking forward to seeing and meeting many of you. Larry Shepard |
11-21-2018, 07:44 PM | #14 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
The upside of having the rear brakes lock first in gravel is that you will be able to steer. The downsides are that it will take a lot longer to stop and the rear of the car will likely pass you during the attempted stop.
How often will we experience a panic stop in gravel vs on pavement? All cars since the mid 1930's have the braking proportioned so that the fronts do 75% of the braking and will lock first in a panic stop. Was Henry right with the Model A and everyone since wrong? Was Henry right with the 2 wheel brakes on the Model T?
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11-21-2018, 07:52 PM | #15 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Dick,
I do know one thing, restored properly and well the original system along with cast iron brake drums and new soft molded lining can and will stop the car on a panic stop and screech them to the stop. The key is proper restoration and adjustment. A while back I serviced a 29K mile car with original brakes and steel drums. I did some adjustment but was amazed how well it too stopped. Larry |
11-21-2018, 09:08 PM | #16 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
The Model T only had emergency brakes on rear wheels. The regular braking was the band stopping the transmission...which i guess would only effect rear wheels.
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11-21-2018, 09:22 PM | #17 | |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Quote:
Just for the sake of discussion, most cars today have anti-lock brakes, full lockup of brakes is not possible, allowing for safety/steering under max stopping. I still remember driving a rear wheel drive truck on wet and/or snowy conditions. Had to shift down on the automatic trans to stop/slow down quickly, especially if turning - otherwise front locked up and rear right would still be driving. Ex-wife refused to drive the truck in the winter. |
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11-21-2018, 09:25 PM | #18 | |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Quote:
I think I will be needing the seat belt to stop my face hitting the windscreen when I press the brake pedal!!
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11-21-2018, 11:37 PM | #19 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Is there a name or specification for the “new soft moulded linings”. I have bonded linings from quite a few years ago, along with cast iron drums, but doubt they are soft.
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11-22-2018, 12:17 AM | #20 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Went for a drive in the rain this AM and since it is the first rain in eight months or so the streets are slick as can be. Car stops real well on dry roads but the back end wanted to get to the intersection first today. Let up a bit and stopped five feet past the line instead of five feet before it. I might just put the 32 drums and brakes back on the front. They give a little more shoe contact than the 31's. 12 inch verses 11 inch. If I had a lathe I'd make some discs for the front and be done with it. Too old to start now.
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11-22-2018, 12:42 AM | #21 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Who drives their A fast enough to lock up the wheels!?
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11-22-2018, 01:02 AM | #22 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
The faster you drive, the LESS likely you are to be able to lock up the wheels.
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11-22-2018, 01:15 AM | #23 | |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Quote:
Terry, I use some bonded linings to new shoes at times and in addition snyders is now handling soft molded lining. I know I complained quite a bit the last few years and others did as well as the older "woven" style lining was causing squeaking after some time on them with the new cast iron drums. The soft molded lining is much better with the cast drums . Give it a try with the cast irons, I think you will like them. Larry |
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11-22-2018, 04:18 PM | #24 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Our local brake and clutch place has just stopped doing the very soft brake linings. The owners have been in the business for many decades and with the falling demand for their services, they are easing their way out. Looks like I will have to stay with woven linings unless I can find someone else to reline my shoes.
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11-22-2018, 04:37 PM | #25 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
I get skidding front wheel(s) frequently when driving on rural back roads due to pea gravel, dirt, etc at stop signs. Is probably not considered to be a true lock up as being discussed, more as a loss of friction/traction. |
11-23-2018, 08:53 AM | #26 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
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After 25 posts no one has mentioned the technique of pumping the brakes to stop the wheels from sliding on hot rubber and loos of steering. Anti lock brakes pump the brakes for us these days in a panic stop. In older systems we must pump the brakes to maintain control. Al Leach |
11-23-2018, 11:08 AM | #27 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Pumping mechanical brakes can have a cooling effect on the lining ,drums and tires .
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11-23-2018, 11:57 AM | #28 | |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Quote:
Thanks to all for the info. |
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11-23-2018, 04:31 PM | #29 | |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Quote:
The worse your brakes are, the earlier you will have to brake but on the other hand, the brakes on a Model A will never be like a modern car. My advice to any novice driver I speak to is understand that and drive accordingly.
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11-23-2018, 05:01 PM | #30 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
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11-23-2018, 05:36 PM | #31 | |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Quote:
Rant over but I think we can all relate!
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11-23-2018, 06:15 PM | #32 | |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Quote:
Again, it would be great if others on the road knew our vehicle's limitations and acted accordingly, but it's not going to happen. The majority of them know as much about Model As as we know about some of their fringe hobbies. Hard to blame them.
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11-23-2018, 06:55 PM | #33 | |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
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11-23-2018, 06:58 PM | #34 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
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11-24-2018, 12:10 AM | #35 | |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
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Welcome to the Barn! P.S. You might want to add your location to your avatar, so we can look out for you on the road! |
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11-24-2018, 12:37 AM | #36 | |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
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11-24-2018, 09:09 AM | #37 | |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
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11-24-2018, 09:34 AM | #38 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
one would think there would have been more discussion about brake adjustment in the Bulletins than what there was, as noted above. There is lots of discussion about odd boo-boos that certain dealers were caught doing, but something as important about brakes does not get harangued repeatedly....
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11-24-2018, 11:22 AM | #39 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Brake adjustment is mentioned in two places in the bulletins . one for the early and another in a different page for the later more common model A brakes . . Without copying the bulletin I'll tell how I do mine . I first disconnect the brake rods at the adjustable clevis end so they will be free and ready to adjust when the time comes . I then move on to the service brake cross shaft adjustment . I disconnect the pedal rod and adjust it so that the plunger at the rear of the pedal rod is 1/16 of an inch from the inside rear of the center cross member where the plunger meets the brake light switch on the 30-31 models . This adjustment is the easy way to set the cross shaft levers pointing straight up and down as Larry Sheppard mentions in a previous post . I then prop the brake pedal at the top of its travel . I adjust the clevis on the pedal rod so that the clevis pin will just enter the brake pedal and hold it at the top of its travel . I then adjust the brakes at the adjustment wedges on the backing plates . I pull back any slack at the front brake levers and adjust the clevises on the front brake rods so that the clevis pins will just enter the front brake levers . I then move to the rear and adjust the rear service brake rods. I pull forward on the rear brake levers to remove slack . I adjust the clevises on the rear brake rods so that the clevis pins will just enter the brake levers. This setup will have all slack in the system removed and the brakes will be ready to activate when the pedal is depressed. If the inner brake parts are in usable condition the brakes will be good .
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11-24-2018, 12:03 PM | #40 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Thanks, Purdy. I missed that one. It is on page 297 in the service bulletins and is part of the entry on retrofitting a solid cross shaft to an early car.
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11-24-2018, 02:02 PM | #41 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Thanks Dick , I couldn't remember the page numbers
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11-24-2018, 02:38 PM | #42 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
[QUOTE=Purdy Swoft;1699191]Brake adjustment is mentioned in two places in the bulletins . one for the early and another in a different page for the later more common model A brakes . . Without copying the bulletin I'll tell how I do mine . I first disconnect the brake rods at the adjustable clevis end so they will be free and ready to adjust when the time comes . I then move on to the service brake cross shaft adjustment . I disconnect the pedal rod and adjust it so that the plunger at the rear of the pedal rod is 1/16 of an inch from the inside rear of the center cross member where the plunger meets the brake light switch on the 30-31 models . This adjustment is the easy way to set the cross shaft levers pointing straight up and down as Larry Sheppard mentions in a previous post . I then prop the brake pedal at the top of its travel . I adjust the clevis on the pedal rod so that the clevis pin will just enter the brake pedal and hold it at the top of its travel . I then adjust the brakes at the adjustment wedges on the backing plates . I pull back any slack at the front brake levers and adjust the clevises on the front brake rods so that the clevis pins will just enter the front brake levers . I then move to the rear and adjust the rear service brake rods. I pull forward on the rear brake levers to remove slack . I adjust the clevises on the rear brake rods so that the clevis pins will just enter the brake levers. This setup will have all slack in the system removed and the brakes will be ready to activate when the pedal is depressed. If the inner brake parts are in usable condition the brakes will be good .[/QUOTE
Well said and explained Purdy. When you get your drag or wheel individual clevis’s adjusted at that point it’s important to get things pretty even so you don’t have a pull to one way or the other. Even a half turn can make the difference. Road test the car and break them in a little and then adjust as necessary. Purdy, I’m doing a brake seminar at the 2018 Marc meet. Sure wish you could be there. All the best ! Larry |
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11-24-2018, 04:47 PM | #43 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Thanks Larry for the kind words . I agree that the brakes should be tested for final adjustment at the wheels. I like to test mine in a dirt drive so I can compare skid marks .
Larry , Thanks for the invite to your seminar , I'm sure it will be very good !!! |
11-24-2018, 09:25 PM | #44 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
An interesting point is that in the Bulletins and in Les Andrews, the initial setting of the brake rods of some precise length of 51-7/16 to 51-1/2 is mentioned as if that is some kind of precise measurement after all is said and done. I think they should point out that this is simply a beginning point and not have it down to the 16th of an inch. It leads one (at least a beginner) to think that is a final measurement. But, it was written 90 years ago, so it ain't going to change.
With all new components, I took great care to measure my brake rods only to adjust them by quite a bit in the step where you take up the slack after adjusting each individual wheel. Hopefully people don't measure their brake rods and not adjust the clevises when taking up the slack. |
11-24-2018, 09:38 PM | #45 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
The Service Bulletin on page 259 is about the redesign of the rods to a solid non adjustable type. They are the lengths specified by Andrews.
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11-24-2018, 09:54 PM | #46 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
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11-24-2018, 10:06 PM | #47 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
There was a difference in the early brake rod setup that doesn't apply to the later much more common model A's . Because of the confusion that mostly can't be overcome, many will continue to have brakes that leave a lot to be desired .
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11-25-2018, 01:02 AM | #48 | |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Quote:
Yup! |
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11-25-2018, 09:23 AM | #49 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
The proper setup for leverage at the service brake cross shaft and the elimination of any slack at the brake rod connections is most important for good brakes.
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12-05-2018, 06:02 PM | #50 | |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Quote:
Talking about this subject of a rain after much dry time, I too had to make a stop rather quickly. Not much surface area, a bit of slick on the road mixed oil and water and stopping without sliding was a challenge. What I learned from this was something about "not overdriving my brakes and tires!" Sadly at my age, when I get in the old girl to drive, memory of this at times escapes me! Dry pavement is one thing, but as you have pointed out, on a road where there has been no rain in a long time, the road is not your friend for quick stops no matter how good your brakes are. |
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12-06-2018, 10:21 AM | #51 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Up here w/ice and snow on the roads for a good part of the year it's normal to feather the brakes a lot so that you're slowing down, not sliding. I don't like hearing that clk clk clk clk of the anti-lock brakes on the modern vehicles, it tells me that I'm braking too hard.
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12-10-2018, 12:35 PM | #52 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Ya know, I was wondering when I adjusted mine about why the rears were set up to grab first. I did it per the Les Andrews procedure, yet, I don't know why other than it was a published procedure. I would be interested in knowing how adjusting the fronts and backs the same has worked out. I am contemplating, as a test, to adjust the fronts to engage a bit before the rears and see what kind of difference it makes. As I try and think why Henry had the rears grab first, I wonder if it had anything to do with horse drawn devices of the day only having brakes (crude) on rear wagon wheels? Just wondering! Henry probably had a more valid reason!
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12-10-2018, 12:41 PM | #53 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
I don't think so. Front brakes were pretty much experimental in 1928.
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12-10-2018, 12:45 PM | #54 | |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Quote:
Venturing a guess In the day, most previous cars were rear only including the T. Pumping the Brakes was probably not an ingrained habit for stopping, most only knew about braking with rear only brakes. Perhaps Henry was concerned about safety when braking on dirt, gravel, snow, etc.? People not knowing how to stop the quickest. |
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12-10-2018, 10:25 PM | #55 | |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
Quote:
I too think the roads is the key. On gravel roads, braking the rear wheels first will help maintain control. On asphalt rods braking the front first will result in better braking as the nose tends to dive into the front axle. When Henry built these cars they were primarily on gravel or dirt roads, not the case anymore.
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12-10-2018, 11:10 PM | #56 | |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
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Rear brake bias on gravel roads will cause the car to change ends in an emergency stop. Front brake bias will cause severe understeer in an emergency stop on gravel roads.
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12-10-2018, 11:38 PM | #57 |
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Re: Brake Adjustment
First time I saw a car spin was a 32 tudor on the road to our ranch. The road was dry as a bone, covered in anything from fine sand to gravel a tad larger than pea gravel. This was about 1943 and the v8 began to heat so the driver had us get out and he drove to the top of the hill to await us there. He hit the brakes and the back end went to the front position and the whole car shuddered to a stop. He then drove past us and told us to wait, he'd get his dads 35 chevy pickup and take us all home, which he did without incident. I think that the engine may have also seized along with the grabbing of the brakes to stop the rear wheels and the car made an impressive about face. The young driver, probably 14 gave us a sheepish look as he rolled down the hill past us. Never saw him drive a Ford again until he was plowing one day with a 27 Fordson tractor. That is another story found in my book, http://bit.ly/FromtheShadows
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