Sport Coupe Resurrection - Debris in Bores

[TheDude]

Hey guys, I know there are a ton of first start threads so I'm not trying to start another one, but I had a question that I couldn't easily find in any of the other threads.

I recently pulled my great-grandfather's '29 Sport Coupe out of a barn with hopes of getting it running (not looking to restore), just get it running and enjoy it.

I'm working on going through all the helpful checklists on the forum, and the next step is dropping the oil pan. The engine easily turns by hand, but all valve lifters for cylinders 3 & 4 are stuck (I've got the valve cover off so I can see them not working). In working through this, I've noticed a good amount of debris in the bores and around the valves. Is it necessary to pull the head and clean this debris out? I'd really prefer to not pull the head unless absolutely necessary so I was wondering if anyone had a good way to vacuum it or will the exhaust suck it all out once the engine starts.

Any advice is appreciated,
Adam

[WHN]

The old barn find! Great.

Looks good, and it was your Great Grandfathers, outstanding.

If it was running when put away? I would take spark plugs out, put a strong shop vac on each spark plug hole and see if anything comes out. Than put some Marvel Mystery Oil in each cylinder. Clean oil pan and oil pump screen. Oil distributor, generator, and grease water pump. Put in 5 quarts of new motor oil, and some fresh gas also with Marvel Mystery Oil. Clean points and new spark plugs. Than give it a shoot. If it starts and runs, now there are a whole group of other things that you should look at before driving car.

I many years ago found a 1929 Sport Coupe that had been sitting in a barn in Up-State New York for 34 years. Put in a battery, some gas, and water with some air in the tires. Car started right up. Clutch was rusted to fly wheel so I couldn’t drive it home. Still have that car today. Keep us informed on how things go. I hope to someday give our 29 car to our Grandson. Enjoy.

[Bill in SoCal]

I think the real question is where did the debris come from? You are cleaning up an old engine that my have not run for a long time. I think I would pull the head. Save yourself time and trouble down the road. You cannot replace a valve without removing the head. Good like, Bill

[Bob C]

Like Bill said what is the debris and how did it get there. Little critters like to crawl up the exhaust and put stuff in the manifolds and cylinders.



Bob

[TheDude]

Thanks Guys - I'm really not sure what the debris is. It seems like little particles of something. I found out on this thread that most of the MMO I had been dumping down the plug holes the past few months was most likely going into the manifold so I pulled the manifolds and valve cover. There was what looked like a pile of rust debris in one of the exhaust valves so I tried to get it out and then blew the valves out with an air gun so I'm wondering if I blew some back up into the engine.

As far as I know, the car was running when it was parked, but when I was growing up, I remember it backfiring a good bit while riding in the rumble seat so I'm not sure how great it was running. My great-grandfather wasn't afraid to take shortcuts to keep something running (the oil pipe cover is an old tennis ball can). Anyway, NC summers are hot and humid and it appears that there was a lot of condensation in the shed it was in because as you can see from the picture, the car is in decent shape, but the undercarriage is covered in rust. Maybe some of that condensation worked it's way up the exhaust and caused some rust?


Any pointers on getting the lifters freed-up. I went over them with some steel wool, sprayed on some Deep Creep, and tapped on them with a dead blow hammer. One of them popped loose and the valve spring reset it, but I've still got three that are stuck.


Also have the other typical problems, rust in the gas tank and clutch rusted to flywheel. I did send off the Marvel carb for a re-build and just got it back. I'll be glad to post more pictures if there's something specific you want to see.

[1931 flamingo]

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Try some Acetone mixed with atf (50/50) and liberally apply to the valve stems and guides, repeat, repeat, etc.
Good luck.
You might try sucking the "debris" out with a shop vac.
Let us know how you make out.
Paul in CT

[Benson]

Using steel wool leaves MANY small pieces of steel inside engine .... Just saying!


Same with wire brushes and drill motors to remove carbon or rust. Chunks of wire get between piston and cylinder walls.

I should say that 55 years ago I did all of the above ... not knowing any better!


P. B. Blaster or Kroil
and soak for days sometimes works

[40 Deluxe]

Rather than trying to vacuum the debris out, find a blow gun with a threaded tip. Get a short length of 3/16" brake line, cut one end off and squeeze down to a narrow slot. Thread the other end onto the blow gun and bend so that it reaches the bottom of the cylinder through the plug hole and blast sway.

[Tom Wesenberg]

12 years ago a body shop wanted me to install an engine in a 28 Special Coupe, and the engine was stored for years with open intake and exhaust. The body shop said just install it without doing anything to the engine. I told them I won't install it until I at least pull the manifolds. I found all the ports stuffed full of seeds and mouse crap.


You should pull the head and pan, as the dipper tray might have rust holes and not hold oil. At least pull the plugs and try to blow out any junk, then spray Kroil on the valves to try to free them up.

[Dodge]

Some may cringe, but I have bought several cars over the years with a stuck clutch. I got them cheap because of the stuck clutch. I got them running and put the rear axle up on axle stands with the car in gear and running, rev it up a bit and put in the clutch them slam on the brakes and put on the parking brake. Sometimes it works right away and sometimes it takes a few tries. It only didn’t work once and in that case it ripped the facing off the clutch disc. Oh well it would have to have been pulled anyway if this hadn’t been tried.
With the lifters definitely use the atf/acetone routine with lot of patience.
And follow the rest of the advise others have posted.

Good luck and don’t forget to raise a glass for Great Grandpa.

[TheDude]

Thanks a ton for all the feedback!

Noted about the steel wool - I'll be sure and take a shop vac to areas I used it.


40, for your trick with the blow gun, is the idea to try and blow the debris out the open valves? I'm trying to picture where it will all go once it starts blowing around.

Thanks for the info on the frozen clutch. I'll definitely be looking to try any sort of trick to get it loose rather than trying to replace it. That seems like a big job that I wont be able to tackle.


Any suggestions on what to do about the rust underneath the car? It's basically on everything, brake rods, axle, differential, etc. I'll try and post a picture this weekend. Should I be worried about oil passages or water jackets being blocked?


I did find a nice rat nest under the seat right beside the random tool collection.

[40 Deluxe]

Originally Posted by TheDude

Thanks a ton for all the feedback!

Noted about the steel wool - I'll be sure and take a shop vac to areas I used it.


40, for your trick with the blow gun, is the idea to try and blow the debris out the open valves? I'm trying to picture where it will all go once it starts blowing around.

Since the air is entering at the bottom of the cylinder, it will blow back out the spark plug hole or an open valve. Blow out each cylinder, then turn the engine so two pistons are at the top then blow again, then turn the other two up. Mouse nest debris is soft and will burn/blow out when the engine is started. If the debris is sand/dirt you need to be more thorough. If you have oil in the cylinders it may be helpful to spray carb cleaner in the cylinder and then blow it out so grit isn't held in by the oil.

[George Miller]

easy way to free the clutch. Start it up and get it running good. Then start it in low gear, drive it around the yard or some wide open spot with the clutch pushed all the way in. It will break loose. I done a few this way.

[1930artdeco]

Here is my 2 cents worth.


I know you don't want to pull the head but I don't think you will have a choice. Namely for the following reasons:


-It will make vacuuming out the cylinders extremely easy, you can then inspect the cylinders for any scoring. You may also want to scrape the piston tops while at it.
-It will also make it easier to put Kroil down the valves to free them up or at least lightly tap on them after awhile to free them up.
-You can also, vacuum out the water passages and inspect the block for cracks.


Like the others have said pull the pan as well and check out the lower end as well.


Mike

[WHN]

Originally Posted by TheDude

Thanks a ton for all the feedback!

Noted about the steel wool - I'll be sure and take a shop vac to areas I used it.


40, for your trick with the blow gun, is the idea to try and blow the debris out the open valves? I'm trying to picture where it will all go once it starts blowing around.

Thanks for the info on the frozen clutch. I'll definitely be looking to try any sort of trick to get it loose rather than trying to replace it. That seems like a big job that I wont be able to tackle.


Any suggestions on what to do about the rust underneath the car? It's basically on everything, brake rods, axle, differential, etc. I'll try and post a picture this weekend. Should I be worried about oil passages or water jackets being blocked?


I did find a nice rat nest under the seat right beside the random tool collection.

I have restored Model A’s without removing complete body. Once you get it running right. You mostlikely will want it to drive properly. A lot of those rusty items will have to be taken off and checked/cleaned/rebuilt. Brakes, front end, springs, and wiring. That should just leave the frame and rear end. Wire brush, sand, and clean. Then a good coat of paint or undercoating depending on what you want.

Now put things back together, and adjust everything. You can now worry about the body, top, and interior as time goes on while enjoying the drive.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Yo' Dude,
GURU, Claude would heat the stuck valve stems & flood it with carb cleaner & penetrating oil.
Chief & I freed up a stuck engine, mounted on a trailer & powering an OLD ARC WELDER.We filled it to OVERFLOWING, with DIESEL for 2 weeks & it turned.
Mounted like it was, was like an engine stand & we ripped it apart & "REBUILT" it, in place!
We ran it in, in place & found out that the WELDER was KAPOOT!!
OH, the Dog jist commented, that "DEBRIS" would be a FUN Car Name !---LOL
Bill Grimyandgreasy

[TheDude]

After looking into this further over the weekend. It looks like the "debris" I was referring to is carbon deposits around the valves and on top of the pistons. I guess everyone's advice is still to pull the head and clean it up? I actually removed all the head bolts yesterday, but the head wont budge so I'll have to look into using a puller.

[WHN]

Originally Posted by TheDude

After looking into this further over the weekend. It looks like the "debris" I was referring to is carbon deposits around the valves and on top of the pistons. I guess everyone's advice is still to pull the head and clean it up? I actually removed all the head bolts yesterday, but the head wont budge so I'll have to look into using a puller.

Put some penetrating oil on head studs. Than put plugs back in. Make sure you remove distributor. Put a few of the head nuts back on very loose.

Now hit your starter. Head should pop right up. Enjoy.

[1930artdeco]

If you have the stock copper gasket you can gingerly use wedges. Dad and I used screwdrivers but be very careful if you do. It would be used just to break the seal and budge the head and make it easier.

Mike