Mechanical vs. Juice brakes on an A

[Roadster62]

For the experts only please, just how much different are PROPERLY rebuilt STOCK A brakes vs. 1939-49 Ford hydraulic brakes on a Model A.

[Special Coupe Frank]

I can tell you from years of experience with flat-head MoPars ( which use the same damned Lockheed Brakes as the Ford) that the fixed-anchor Lockheed hydraulic brakes can be just as lousy as poorly-maintained Ford mechanicals, if they are not set-up properly.

There are two adjustments: the "heel" contact on the lower anchor pin (referred to as "Major Adjustment", which requires a special gauge, such as the Ammco 1750 brake gauge ), then the service adjustment, which is another eccentric, more easily adjusted by feel, with the drum in place. The linings MUST be correctly arced to match the curvature of the drum.

If the Lockheed hydraulics are not adjusted / functioning properly, the only "advantage" you will gain is that the juice brakes are "self-equalizing" between all four wheels.

You'll spend a fair amount of time & money gathering parts for the conversion, and modifying your car, and still wind-up with an obsolete, fiddly braking system.

I think it's six of one, half-dozen of another, having dealt with both types of brake.

The Model A brakes are a bit simpler to adjust, and do not mandate that use of the special (expensive) brake gauge to set the anchor-pin adjustment.

My two-cents worth.

[1931 flamingo]

I believe the 42-48's were easier to adjust. Go over to the EV8 forum and post question, fellow there, richard lacey, specializes in ford brakes, or ck into cling's, and there are others. Supposedly, "properly rebuilt and adjusted" mech brakes as good as hydraulic.
Paul in CT

[SSsssteamer]

We have 20 vintage cars. Six of them are model A Fords. The model A's stop as well as the cars with the hydraulics. What is really nice about the mechanicals is that the cars with them can sit for years and their brakes still work well. The hydraulics freeze up, develope leaks, and they also drie up. So before taking the hydraulics out after a long storage rest, their brakes usually have to be gone through again. In the hydraulic brakes, I have silicone brake fluid in some and hydraulic brake fluid in others. Less problems with silicone fluid.

[Special Coupe Frank]

Also, those step-bore wheel cylinders are EXPENSIVE if they have to be sleeved or replaced.

[mrtexas]

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Originally Posted by Special Coupe Frank

Also, those step-bore wheel cylinders are EXPENSIVE if they have to be sleeved or replaced.

New wheel cylinders are $35.

[Lowbuckboz]

I used front brakes from a 35 Ford, made a huge difference on how it stopped. The brakes are bigger than the stock "A" brakes and they are still mechanical. Was a nice upgrade. Properly adjusted and working correctly, these mechanicals stop well. Just dont drive it like your every day car.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Roadster62

For the experts only please, just how much different are PROPERLY rebuilt STOCK A brakes vs. 1939-49 Ford hydraulic brakes on a Model A.

Would it be fair to ask you what is your opinion?? Why would/do you feel one is better than the other?

.

[Special Coupe Frank]

Originally Posted by mrtexas

New wheel cylinders are $35.

They were $50 each 15 years ago when I needed them for my '41 De Soto...

I guess the Ford guys are lucky then.

Who has 'em for $35 ?

[shooter54]

I have juice brakes on my coupe and it stops on a dime. I've driven stock coupes with both properly adjusted mechanical brakes and with improperly adjusted mechanical brakes. To be honest, from what I can tell-when adjusted correctly, stock mechanical brakes perform really well! If they are not though it can be scary.

I wouldn't say the properly adjusted mechanical brakes stop AS good as the juice brake conversions do, but pretty close.

[Jack '29 Sport Coupe]

I would tend to ask the same question as Brent regarding the
word "better." I'm no "expert" by any definition, but I have owned
juice and mechanical brakes on my two A's and my own opinion
is that in a panic stop----and I have made at least one or two in
my day------is that you need a plan "B" in both scenarios, lol.
Just my opinion, but I think juice brakes on a model A present a
false security. I almost learned the hard way! JMHO

Jack

[mrtexas]

If you want hydraulic brakes you are much better off with a new set of modern bendix backing plates available from several vendors, at least for the front. They are much better than 40-48 Ford brakes.

[jerry shook]

I am not an expert either , but i do have a question ,if mechanical brakes are as good or better then hydraulic why did they change to hydraulic and still 80 years later use the hydraulic system . God bless

[Jason in TX]

Discussing more of what Jerry just brought up, you can apply more force in a smaller space using the hydraulic principal than you can on the fulcrum principle. Think mechanical jack vs hydraulic jack. So, from a physics standpoint, It would seem that you can do more with hydraulics in modern cars.

I would also think it would be hard to run straight brake rods from the pedal to all four wheels in a Modern Honda. You can bend hydraulic hoses and they still work fine. You can't bend mechanical brake rods around corners and they work as well. Maybe cables, but still, hydraulics seems to be the natural progression. In the 50s, cars got much bigger and heavier. I would hate to stop a 1959 Cadillac going 85 mph with mechanical brakes.

But on the light weight Model A with skinny tires, I think the Mechanicals are excellent! Mine stop on a dime as well.

[Bassman/NZ]

Lobuckboz nailed it..... whichever system you use, just dont drive it like your everyday driver.

[rmak]

No expert on brakes either. I understand the hydraulic push principle that Jason pointed out. But another factor has to be cost. Imagine the production cost of all those rods, bushing, springs, clips, etc. and the labor to fit it all together. By comparison, juice brakes have to be cheaper.

[dave in australia]

The limiting factor in the A's braking is the width of the tyre. A well adjusted set of rods/drums will stop just as well as hydraulics on 4 1/2 inches of rubber.

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by Roadster62

For the experts only please, just how much different are PROPERLY rebuilt STOCK A brakes vs. 1939-49 Ford hydraulic brakes on a Model A.

The advantage to hydraulic is they are self equalizing. As far as stopping power it does not matter hydraulic or mechanical, it is all about leverage. You could put longer levers on stock brakes and they would work easier, but you would have to adjust them more often.

I reworked my front brakes on my speedster to bendix type. They work real easy.

[Special Coupe Frank]

Juice brakes are much cheaper to make, and to install on the assembly line.

And cheaper to adjust (if you're paying someone to do it).

Remember, Ford was one of the last American auto makers to switch to Hydraulic brakes, so their mechanicals must have done an okay job of stopping the V-8 85.

The 12 cylinder Packards and K-series Lincolns used mechanicals to the end of their days, 1939 & 1940 respectively.

If you're bent on going with hydraulics, I would recommend investigating one of the conversions mentioned above, that uses the modern (post 1950) Bendix "self-energizing" / self-centering shoes... they work MUCH better than the fixed-anchor Lockheeds.

Just not enough advantage gained by the Lockheed set-up, in my opinion, to make me want to change my A; I've driven over 100,000 miles on Lockheed brakes in my vintage MoPars, so I have some experience with them.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Roadster62

For the experts only please, just how much different are PROPERLY rebuilt STOCK A brakes vs. 1939-49 Ford hydraulic brakes on a Model A.

Mr Texas has it right! Bendix is the proper set up to use if you are going to change mechanicals to more modern hydraulics. Ford knew that Bendix has superior system, but being frugal, scuttlebut has it that Ford refused to license Bendix and used his own (Lockheed) version of hydraulics. 'Ted' floaters, has sold a system all over the world that attempts to mimic the 'self energizing' Bendix brake system! Why is that? Because Bendix system was/is superior brake design(floating/self energizing) was/is the best of the rest!
Now which to pick for Model A:
Pricewise/cheapest...nod to model a to restore/maintain vs complete reengineering to hydraulics;
Maintenance...if car stored long periods of time, nod to model a vs seized/rusted up master and whl cylinders;
Safety...if driven long/hard/often, nod to Bendix vs fadeing/pulling,etc mechanicals;
Ease of maintenance if driven often/regularly...Bendix
Nice to have choices!!

[sturgis 39]

I am an expert in my opion and I will not reply because I do not know what it takes to qualify in your mind to be an expert. You must be the same guy that adds the sentence in want ads, "Serious buyers only".

[mrtexas]

Originally Posted by Special Coupe Frank

Remember, Ford was one of the last American auto makers to switch to Hydraulic brakes, so their mechanicals must have done an okay job of stopping the V-8 85.

I guess you haven't experienced the miserable cable brakes on a 37!

[V4F]

i use mechanical , rebuilt all 4 & installed "teds" kits , cast drums . i think my brakes are plenty good ! be sure you adjust them correctly !!! .......... steve

[pat in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by Jason in TX

In the 50s, cars got much bigger and heavier. I would hate to stop a 1959 Cadillac going 85 mph with mechanical brakes.

.

You would be surprised how well a 30's Lincoln Model L or K or a Pierce Arrow V12 stops with mechanical brakes, and those are 6500 lb cars that go 70-80 easily. They are big shoed, with cast drums, self energizing on the Lincoln and the Pierce had a drive shaft driven power assist that made it easy to stop with a light touch.

[TerryH]

With properly set up brakes, either mechanical or hydraulic, those skinny Model A tires are always going to be the real limiting factor in trying to stop quicker. When they lock up, they won't know or care which system is used.

[Roadster62]

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Thanks for everyones reply. I posted the original question because every now and then someone mentions putting juice brakes on a STOCK Model A. I've always thought the brakes Henry put on A's that are properly rebuilt, work just fine.

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Would it be fair to ask you what is your opinion?? Why would/do you feel one is better than the other?

.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Roadster62

Thanks for everyones reply. I posted the original question because every now and then someone mentions putting juice brakes on a STOCK Model A. I've always thought the brakes Henry put on A's that are properly rebuilt, work just fine.

So true!!

[Special Coupe Frank]

"Thanks for everyones reply. I posted the original question because every now and then someone mentions putting juice brakes on a STOCK Model A. I've always thought the brakes Henry put on A's that are properly rebuilt, work just fine."

There are also those folks who don't / "can't" leave anything exactly the way the factory built it...

( I wonder what percentage of Harley's stay exactly the way they left the factory...? )

I would add a small qualifying statement to: "Stock brakes are just fine on a Model A" - a STOCK Model A...

If someone goes and substantially boosts the HP of their "banger" or re-powers the car with a hotter engine, then the Model A brakes may no longer be adequate.

My personal opinion is, that unless you're building a "heritage rod", and need to stay "old-school" with the Lockheed Juice brakes, if you really need hydraulic brakes, there are better hydraulic brake designs out there.

Chrysler Corp. finally gave up on Lockheed-derived brakes after the 1962 full-size cars. From then on, they used Bendix brakes. The "new" compact MoPars used Bendix brakes from day one, 1960 ( just like the Falcon & Comet).

[mickeyb]

I changed to hydro.I wanted something I had worked on before.They are easy to adjust
and repair

[foresthunter]

Originally Posted by Lowbuckboz

I used front brakes from a 35 Ford, made a huge difference on how it stopped. The brakes are bigger than the stock "A" brakes and they are still mechanical. Was a nice upgrade. Properly adjusted and working correctly, these mechanicals stop well. Just dont drive it like your every day car.

Using the 35 Ford brakes - do they fit with no changes?

[Barry B./ Ma.]

My Model a has cast iron drums and I can lock all wheels at low speed and they are easy to adjust and maintain. My brothers A was converted to 47 hydraulics and he ran silicone fluid. You never knew where you were going when you hit his brakes, one time it would pull left and the next right. I love my Model A mechanicals and I'll stick with them. I drove a restored 27 Chrysler the other day that had hydraulic band type brakes and I almost sailed through every stop sign pressing down as hard as I could so I think I know why external band brakes aren't used anymore. Stick with the A mechanicals and save yourself a lot of work.

[Lowbuckboz]

Originally Posted by foresthunter

Using the 35 Ford brakes - do they fit with no changes?

The only thing needed to fit them was a hydraulic brake conversion kit, it contained the spacer ring for the backing plate, which you dont need and a inner bearing spacer, which you do need. The brake operating pin that goes through the knig pin from the 35 or 36 Ford mates up with no modes to the Model A brake actuating shaft assemblies. Was a real easy swap, only thing I did not have was the operating pins which were hard to find.

[BCCHOPIT]

Originally Posted by Lowbuckboz

The only thing needed to fit them was a hydraulic brake conversion kit, it contained the spacer ring for the backing plate, which you dont need and a inner bearing spacer, which you do need. The brake operating pin that goes through the knig pin from the 35 or 36 Ford mates up with no modes to the Model A brake actuating shaft assemblies. Was a real easy swap, only thing I did not have was the operating pins which were hard to find.

That size was the inner bearing spacer? I am thinking .188 what did you do for the seal? I am working on the swap now. I put 32 rear brakes in the back
Thanks Bill

[Lowbuckboz]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

That size was the inner bearing spacer? I am thinking .188 what did you do for the seal? I am working on the swap now. I put 32 rear brakes in the back
Thanks Bill

I think the spacer thickness was about 3/8". The seal was a stock 35/36 Ford seal. The spindles I used are 32 Ford. The A spindle where the bearings go were the same. Forgot to mention that, though it shouldnt matter.

[BCCHOPIT]

thanks lowbuck...

[foresthunter]

Thanks Lowbuckboy - I'd like to stay mechanical - I actually like those dang rods going out to the wheels - just wondering if I can get a bit more 'stop' as I'm hoping to go a bit faster...

[sam heller]

In 1961, I had a 4 door 1931 Model A. Now in 2015, I have4 a 1929 model A truck with V8-60 engine. My mechanical set up on the '31 were "Hopefully you will stop in time". Now I would like hydraulic something. Is there a vendor that ships ALL parts needed for the Conversion?
Any help here would be very appreciated
sam heller Greenville SC

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by sam heller

In 1961, I had a 4 door 1931 Model A. Now in 2015, I have4 a 1929 model A truck with V8-60 engine. My mechanical set up on the '31 were "Hopefully you will stop in time". Now I would like hydraulic something. Is there a vendor that ships ALL parts needed for the Conversion?
Any help here would be very appreciated
sam heller Greenville SC

MT CAR Products (click the link below) manufactures these absolute quality Bendix-type hydraulic brake system parts. This stuff is based on the early Lincoln Bendix systems that Henry elected to stop his heavier cars. This stuff is virtually bolt-on to Ford and Model A axles. It ain't cheap...........it IS 1st class, and it works! Make sure you click on the Model A "KIT". DD

http://www.mtcarproducts.com/productsgrid.html

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by Roadster62

For the experts only please, just how much different are PROPERLY rebuilt STOCK A brakes vs. 1939-49 Ford hydraulic brakes on a Model A.

How many of the "experts" noticed that your question included 49 brakes which are Bendix and are far superior to mechanical brakes?

I assume you meant 39-48 which are lockheed and not as good as Bendix but better than mechanicals.
Bill

[Larry Jenkins]

Point car or not?

I said this many years ago.. "Model A Ford mechanical brakes, when properly installed and adjusted, are arguably as good as, or better than, Hydraulic brakes."

Besides the cost, Henry felt that his change to juice brakes was Customer driven, knowing that he still had a superior braking system for the day..

Larry

[denis4x4]

Originally Posted by Special Coupe Frank

They were $50 each 15 years ago when I needed them for my '41 De Soto...

I guess the Ford guys are lucky then.

Who has 'em for $35 ?

Just bought some from for my A roadster at NAPA for $20 each

[ian Simpson]

Originally Posted by Special Coupe Frank

"Thanks for everyones reply. I posted the original question because every now and then someone mentions putting juice brakes on a STOCK Model A. I've always thought the brakes Henry put on A's that are properly rebuilt, work just fine."

There are also those folks who don't / "can't" leave anything exactly the way the factory built it...

( I wonder what percentage of Harley's stay exactly the way they left the factory...? )

I would add a small qualifying statement to: "Stock brakes are just fine on a Model A" - a STOCK Model A...

If someone goes and substantially boosts the HP of their "banger" or re-powers the car with a hotter engine, then the Model A brakes may no longer be adequate.

My personal opinion is, that unless you're building a "heritage rod", and need to stay "old-school" with the Lockheed Juice brakes, if you really need hydraulic brakes, there are better hydraulic brake designs out there.

Chrysler Corp. finally gave up on Lockheed-derived brakes after the 1962 full-size cars. From then on, they used Bendix brakes. The "new" compact MoPars used Bendix brakes from day one, 1960 ( just like the Falcon & Comet).

Why does a hotter engine make a difference? Stopping from 55 with a stock engine does not differ from stopping from 55 with a more powerful engine. If you are driving faster with the rudimentary Model A steering and suspension, may the Lord be with you.

IMHO unless you go for cast iron drums and Ted's floaters with properly arced shoes you are not experiencing the best of Model A mechanical brakes.

Too bad you cannot fit a set of four disk brakes from a MK II or E-type Jaguar to a Model A. These were the best ever!

[pooch]

The mechanical brake dudes sure got a shock when I let them drive my 28 plymouth. They almost busted their nose on the windscreen when stopping.

[modelaer]

I know it is an old thread but I think it is worth mentioning that juice brakes do suffer from corrosion due to long term storage and environmental conditions. Some antique cars tend to sit for a relative long period of time.

Pete

[denis4x4]

When you have 60 HP at the rear wheels with 1931 A running gear, hydraulic brakes help. Too, when you drive them a lot they don't present any problems.

[mshmodela]

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Brake shoes are mechanical --regardless of the method of applying force...

[bbrocksr]

Originally Posted by mshmodela

Brake shoes are mechanical --regardless of the method of applying force...

And hydraulics are a better means of applying force.
Bill

[dumb person]

Originally Posted by modelaer

I know it is an old thread but I think it is worth mentioning that juice brakes do suffer from corrosion due to long term storage and environmental conditions. Some antique cars tend to sit for a relative long period of time.

Pete

That is true, that was a primary reason for buying a model A for me.

[Brujo29]

On my Phaeton,I was looking into swapping out the mechanicals for juice brakes.The car is set up at as a pre WW2 era dry lakes car,so doing so would throw the whole look/feel of it.After doing some research,I had decided on a kit from Klings and was ready to purchase it.A friend of mine had bought a semi restored Roadster that he was turning into a hot rod.He gave me all of the mechanical brakes,drums/hubs,everything except new rods.With everything in alot better shape than mine,I spent a weekend swapping them in and giving them a proper adjusting..WOW,what a difference!Needless to say I will be sticking with the mechanicals...

[jerseyboy]

Originally Posted by Brujo29

On my Phaeton,I was looking into swapping out the mechanicals for juice brakes.The car is set up at as a pre WW2 era dry lakes car,so doing so would throw the whole look/feel of it.After doing some research,I had decided on a kit from Klings and was ready to purchase it.A friend of mine had bought a semi restored Roadster that he was turning into a hot rod.He gave me all of the mechanical brakes,drums/hubs,everything except new rods.With everything in alot better shape than mine,I spent a weekend swapping them in and giving them a proper adjusting..WOW,what a difference!Needless to say I will be sticking with the mechanicals...

Have you been to the TROG? If you haven't, this is a great car for that race.

Keep 4-banging!

[Brujo29]

Originally Posted by jerseyboy

Have you been to the TROG? If you haven't, this is a great car for that race.

Keep 4-banging!

I haven't been to the New Jersey races.I'm holding out in hopes of a West Coast Race in the future..

[Tiny]

Love your Tub Brujo. Some of us West coasters need to put together a race or even a Banger meet or something

[Brujo29]

Originally Posted by Tiny

Love your Tub Brujo. Some of us West coasters need to put together a race or even a Banger meet or something

I think there would plenty of interest in a West Coast version,but maybe our California enviromental laws and ocean conservation puts a stop to it..Damn Hippy legislation

As far as Banger meets,F.A.S.T. has a couple of events per year.The Auburn Hill Climb in Sept/Oct and the Banger Drags at Santa Margarita Ranch in May/June..

[Tiny]

I keep missing the Auburn meet due too other commitments. This year I vow to make it, probably put stock wheels back on my coupe for the race, so I can be competitive . Maybe a beach in Oregon? I'm not sure about their "greeny" laws. I know you can drive on Clam Beach in Humboldt County just north of Arcata. Its a LONG beach too. It might be an option?

[Bill Stipe]

I guess I can add my 2 cents for what its worth.
I see a post about too much HP at the rear wheels that it is a problem for the mechanical braking.
This is just from my experience and that is if you go through every detail of the mechanical brakes and a must that you install cast iron drums with the soft woven lining, the car will lock all for wheels with not a lot of pedal pressure and you can almost let go of the steering wheel.
I don't know what my HP I have at the rear wheels the engine dyno was close to 100 HP and 175 Ft lb. torque so I would guess 15% to 20% less and the rear wheels, but that is not a problem of stopping the wheels from locking up, it is the skinny tires, if your traveling 65 or 70 miles per hour! and any quick steering maneuver things can get hairy real quick. There simply is not enough rubber contact on the road with the narrow tires. At normal speeds in town or say 45 to 55 there great.
The mechanical brakes are great for me I love them there no trouble if the car sits too long, easy to adjust and repair and simple.
Just my opinion for what its worth.

[denis4x4]

Bill Stipe said:
"I see a post about too much HP at the rear wheels that it is a problem for the mechanical braking."

My tongue was deeply in my cheek when I posted that.

[Bill Stipe]

Originally Posted by denis4x4

Bill Stipe said:
"I see a post about too much HP at the rear wheels that it is a problem for the mechanical braking."

My tongue was deeply in my cheek when I posted that.

I'm sorry I didn't read that close enough, you didn't said it was too much HP for the mechanical brakes just that juice brake help.

I did try juice brakes when I was just out of High School on the one posted on my avatar and just could not get them right. I had 46 ford rear axle and 41 ford front backing plates and brake drums. it would always pull me in the ditch on the first hard brake and if I pumped them then apply they were better. I had the drums turned, new shoes arced all new wheel cylinders and master. the master was under the floor like the 41. I think I just could not get all the air out would be my guess. didn't know any one with power bleeder at the time that may have helped.

[Terry, NJ]

My own experience with both mechanicals and hydraulics is that I favor mechanicals. Besides, the real stopping power is in the drum and shoe contact. How big? What materials? Equalization? Not the actualization method. I was so happy when my first model A (Town Sedan) had hydraulic brakes installed until I found out exactly what that entails, Rusted lines, stuck cylinders, fluid levels, bad MCs, etc. All the things that one doesn't encounter with mechanicals.
Terry

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by Bill Stipe

I guess I can add my 2 cents for what its worth.
I see a post about too much HP at the rear wheels that it is a problem for the mechanical braking.
This is just from my experience and that is if you go through every detail of the mechanical brakes and a must that you install cast iron drums with the soft woven lining, the car will lock all for wheels with not a lot of pedal pressure and you can almost let go of the steering wheel.
I don't know what my HP I have at the rear wheels the engine dyno was close to 100 HP and 175 Ft lb. torque so I would guess 15% to 20% less and the rear wheels, but that is not a problem of stopping the wheels from locking up, it is the skinny tires, if your traveling 65 or 70 miles per hour! and any quick steering maneuver things can get hairy real quick. There simply is not enough rubber contact on the road with the narrow tires. At normal speeds in town or say 45 to 55 there great.
The mechanical brakes are great for me I love them there no trouble if the car sits too long, easy to adjust and repair and simple.

Just my opinion for what its worth.

I could not agree more. But I do think narrow tires are better in deep snow.
You must not have the chev head on that car if you only have a 100 hp

[mike657894]

my model A fordor was bought in 76 has sat from that time. i got it up and running. have not touched the brakes yet. and they will lock on gravel and will put an unsuspecting passenger into the dash if you catch them off gaurd. as long as it has the original drive train i will stick with the mechanicals.

[Bill Stipe]

Originally Posted by George Miller

I could not agree more. But I do think narrow tires are better in deep snow.
You must not have the chev head on that car if you only have a 100 hp

George it is only a flat head, but I am going to work on the Chevy OHV head again fairly soon I hope that meaning next summer. unless something interferes with my plans again!!
how is that Chevy project going on you end?

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by Bill Stipe

George it is only a flat head, but I am going to work on the Chevy OHV head again fairly soon I hope that meaning next summer. unless something interferes with my plans again!!
how is that Chevy project going on you end?

it is going ok. Rods are about done. Working on lifter bosses. Did you ever see a Model A engine with hydraulic lifters?

[RUNNERBUN]

Post 63 is reported