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Old 07-13-2019, 09:06 PM   #1
Tom Endy
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Default Poor quality transmission roller bearings

Some while back it was reported on this forum that some really poor quality transmission roller bearing have descended on the Model A hobby. It was not clear what supplier or suppliers were offering them, but they would fail after 300-400 miles. I later learned one of the better suppliers were offering them.

A well known supplier of synchronous transmissions also fell victim to these poor quality bearings.

Since I rebuild transmissions I became concerned and called Walt Bratton, where I buy my transmission parts. Walt assured me that the bearings he is offering are the same as before.

Just recently I placed an order for transmission parts with Bretton's; I was told they were out of stock of both size roller bearings. Their supplier had sent them the poor quality bearings and Bratton's would not put them in stock and returned them.

The attached photo is of a proper quality roller bearing. Note that each roller element has a small axle on the end that protrudes through a hole in the end cap. The poor quality bearings have end caps that have dimples stamped in them. Each roller element is rounded on the end and fits into the dimples. It takes about 300-400 miles for the end of the roller to wear through the end cap, then the bearing comes apart.

My problem now is I need transmission roller bearings and they appear to be not available. Does anyone have knowledge of a supplier that is still offering the quality roller bearings?

Tom Endy
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Old 07-13-2019, 09:15 PM   #2
Joe K
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Default Re: Poor quality transmission roller bearings

See https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=199040 for a reply from MikeVFlorida on original interchange numbers.
Specifically
Quote:
A–7118–A Countershaft Short bearing
24780 Timken
F–93324 SKF
J24–1256 RHC
93328 Hyatt
J–24–1248 BCA Federal Mogul
A–7121–A countershaft long bearing
J–24–1256? BCA Federal Mogul
94216 Hyatt
J201632 Bowers
J–24–1256? BCA Federal Mogul
If there is a Timken short bearing, I would be surprised if there is not a Timken long bearing. Long a believer in Timken.


Edit: The Timken number seems to be in error as it specifies a taper cone bearing.

Rather, working backwards from a 93328 Hyatt I come to https://www.yoyopart.com/oem/11469267/hyatt-93328.html which has an interchange of:

DT Components J241256
Precision Seals & Bearings J241256
STUDEBAKER 175365
STUDEBAKER 176365
IHC 62772D
TIMKEN J241256

One could probably do the same for the long bearing.

Joe K
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Last edited by Joe K; 07-13-2019 at 09:22 PM.
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Old 07-13-2019, 10:05 PM   #3
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Default Re: Poor quality transmission roller bearings

When I ordered from Brattons about 3 weeks ago they still had the long bearings but not the short. Bert’s had them in stock and they look exactly like the ones pictured. You might want to call and see if they are still in stock.

Also, Tom I used your transmission articles when I rebuilt mine recently. Great stuff, thanks.
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Old 04-28-2020, 04:57 PM   #4
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Default Re: Poor quality transmission roller bearings

Just got a set from CW moss ,I sent them back
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Old 04-28-2020, 07:45 PM   #5
Tom Endy
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Default Re: Poor quality transmission roller bearings

I think the Model A kingdom is in big trouble. The only roller bearings being manufactured for the model A transmission are these extremely poorly designed bearings that all the suppliers are now selling. These poor quality bearings were slipped into them by the middle man without their knowledge. Most suppliers don't even know how to tell the difference between the good and the bad. If you install these in a transmission they will fail in 400 to 500 miles. I don't think the suppliers are doing anything about it.

I just overhauled a transmission for a Model A person because it was screaming and found it had the crummy bearings installed. The long roller bearing in the back end of the cluster gear had come completely apart. The transmission had been overhauled about three years ago. In order to complete the overhaul I installed some used roller bearings I salvaged out of another transmission that were of the correct design.

If I am sked to overhaul another transmission I will have to tell the customer that I will re-use the existing roller bearings if they appear serviceable or install the crummy ones that will prematurely fail. In that case all warranty bets are off.

Tom Endy
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Old 04-28-2020, 08:16 PM   #6
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Default Re: Poor quality transmission roller bearings

This does not answer the question you asked. Sorry. I can not resist comment. All bearing manufacturers and major bearing distributors have gone the way of China.

Chinese authorities controlled society for decades by prohibiting it citizens from travelling inside the country. That meant that every region was somewhat self sufficient. Each area had its own metal working industry, its own agricultural industry, etc. There are hundreds of bearing manufacturers in China.

As I worked in the bearing industry, I visited a number of Chinese bearing manufacturers. Some are quite good, having been joint ventured with leading US and European producers. Many are small shops with horrendous quality control although the Chinese government has made efforts to consolidate many of the small producers.

What you are witnessing is that there are so many retailers, distributors, wholesalers, importers, exporters in the chain, all of whom are looking for cheaper sources, that quality and consistency do not exist.

I have not been in the bearing industry for some time, but I would guess that China is moving toward Viet Nam, Thailand, etc. Cheaper, cheaper, cheaper.

I am old. I grew up in an age when America could do something with machinery rather than with keyboards. I will not be around to see it, but the country will rue the day when it no longer has the capability to manufacture.... be it bearings, or prescription drugs, ventilators, let alone Model A parts.
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Old 04-28-2020, 08:53 PM   #7
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Default Re: Poor quality transmission roller bearings

NOTE: I have seen both types of roller bearings discussed above fail. These bearings happen to be ones with the pins on both ends of the rollers.

I deleted my information from this post on 06-10-20 because as mentioned in the post I could not find the photos.

Well I have found the original failed bearings and gears from the transmission that screamed VERY loud in second gear in less that 500 miles after rebuild with ALL new Mark gears.

Brand-new Mark gears in all positions:
Second slider was damaged along with the second gear position on cluster gear.

Teeth are badly pitted from all of the vibrations.

NO ... this transmission NEVER had any water inside it and 600W was always used. Never ANY STP or other Snake oil.

I have seen both types of roller bearings discussed above fail.

It appears to me that the steel used to make the bearing cages is soft OR maybe the rollers are tapered.
I will mic the rollers to see if they are tapered.

1. Soft steel cages problem is obvious as to what it causes.

2. Tapered rollers might cause rollers to move forward or backward and place pressure on soft roller cages.
I say this because not all rollers have worn into the cages.

3. I also found a possible problem with the REPRO spacer inside the cluster gear that I used.
Spacer may not be the cause but it could have contributed to the destruction of the bearing cages.

I am very busy at the shop trying to catch up so will post photos later when time allows.

Last edited by Benson; 06-26-2020 at 08:14 AM. Reason: I deleted post on 06-10-20 ... see this post
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Old 04-28-2020, 08:55 PM   #8
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Default Re: Poor quality transmission roller bearings

Tom,

What you have with the "good" photo are rollers with machined trunion ends. The holes in the retainers are machined/drilled, perhaps pierced depending on the retainer thickness. A typical solid race roller bearing.

From what you describe as the junk, the rollers are spherical end, probably produced by tumbling in a barrel. The dimples are produced by stamping, probably in the same operation when the blank is pierced. Spherical end rollers are generally used in drawn cup needle bearings where there is radial load, but very little end load.

Given the design you describe, the rollers will skew with even the slightest misalignment (caused by inconsistent roller diameters, torque, etc., the bearing will self-destruct.

Poor quality, perhaps, but more than that wrong design for the application.
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Old 04-28-2020, 08:57 PM   #9
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Default Re: Poor quality transmission roller bearings

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjdeb View Post
Cheaper, cheaper, cheaper.

I am old. I grew up in an age when America could do something with machinery rather than with keyboards. I will not be around to see it, but the country will rue the day when it no longer has the capability to manufacture.... be it bearings, or prescription drugs, ventilators, let alone Model A parts.
I don't know... i thought that day would be a lot closer
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Old 04-28-2020, 09:06 PM   #10
Tom Endy
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Default Re: Poor quality transmission roller bearings

See the attached article. It shows a photo of the poor quality bearings and explains how to tell the difference between good and bad.

Tom Endy
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Old 04-28-2020, 09:43 PM   #11
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Default Re: Poor quality transmission roller bearings

Has anyone taken the edited reference numbers supplied by Joe K above and tried Motion Industries or Bearings Incorporated?
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Old 04-28-2020, 10:02 PM   #12
Chuck Sea/Tac
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Default Re: Poor quality transmission roller bearings

Bert’s has the good ones
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Old 04-28-2020, 11:28 PM   #13
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Default Re: Poor quality transmission roller bearings

Not sure, Tom, but you might try the Early Ford Store in San Dimas, Ca. earlyfordstore.com
909 305-1955
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Old 04-28-2020, 11:44 PM   #14
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Default Re: Poor quality transmission roller bearings

I recently bought a transmission sourced from a restored car that was being parted out by a hot rodder. The previous owner had rebuilt the unit with NOS Ford gears, which showed little or no wear. I nevertheless dismantled it for inspection and found the dimpled type of bearings throughout. Those in the cluster gear had a significant wear pattern. The short bearing in the input shaft/mainshaft pocket had completely disintegrated, with severe damage to both shafts. I got some decent gears out of the deal but was otherwise disappointed.

I have dismantled at least a dozen transmissions over the past 15 years. Most had gears that were badly worn yet the bearings, which were from back when we made good stuff, were usually intact and not too badly worn. I have saved some and will inspect them for possible reuse, given the apparent poor quality of current stock..
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Old 04-29-2020, 10:30 PM   #15
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Default Re: Poor quality transmission roller bearings

Sometimes replacing parts might not be the best thing. Going through a pile of roller bearings I found a bunch that were original and measured with no wear. The face of the bearings were all good. They really were nothing that would fall apart anytime soon.

So a bunch of bearings in my car are original factory bearings that I could not find anything wrong.

I should also say I did find a bunch that were bad. I have even not bought NOS in the box Ford. Always pull away the paper and inspect. I have found many NOS in the box with rusty bearing faces. Little patches and such. Kind of disappointing.
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Old 04-30-2020, 08:19 AM   #16
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Default Re: Poor quality transmission roller bearings

Quote:
I have even not bought NOS in the box Ford. Always pull away the paper and inspect. I have found many NOS in the box with rusty bearing faces. Little patches and such. Kind of disappointing.
I think I mentioned the Hyatt Box with a bearing inside for sale on Ebay. The bearing was NOT like any Hyatt bearing I've ever seen. But the substitution may not have been intentional - one hopes anyway. Just somebody cleaning out Granpa's drawer of Model A parts who didn't know better?

Sometimes its hard to think the best.

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Old 04-30-2020, 02:14 PM   #17
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Default Re: Poor quality transmission roller bearings

glad I saw this. I got new bearing from snyders and In "ford authorized" bags stamped made in china. are these dimple bearings. and I checked berts and they have the dimpled ones pictured. I guess Im going to reuse the OE with the lines cut in them.
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Old 04-30-2020, 03:51 PM   #18
Joe K
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Default Re: Poor quality transmission roller bearings

As I understand it, the bearings exist in three configurations.

1. Bearing rollers as "tubes" (either solid or like helical spring) held in position by rods which pass through the end rings and are riveted or welded to the ring.

2. Bearing rollers which exists as "solid" - but have the ends turned down to match holes in the end rings which are held otherwise by four independent rods.

3. Bearing rollers which may be solid with the ends "dished" to match dimples on the end ring but may be tubes. End rings separated by rods similar to 2. above.

I would look to these in this order of attractiveness.

I have looked over my "transmission inventory" and find only bearings of the 1. above. All of these would have been taken from original probably never opened transmissions.

Its nice when you go to the dump (Transfer Station) and find a transmission left by someone who was "cleaning out the barn." Doesn't happen often, but when it does it makes your day.

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Old 04-30-2020, 07:12 PM   #19
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Default Re: Poor quality transmission roller bearings

Bert’s just bought a bunch of NOS ones that are the type we want. Just so you know. $20 each. All old stock .
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Old 04-30-2020, 11:13 PM   #20
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Default Re: Poor quality transmission roller bearings

I just bought a set of roller bearings from Brattons. I was uncertain if they were "dimpled" or "axled" so took one apart. It was the dimple type. Called Bratton, was told these were all he could get, there are differences in quality among suppliers, and he had never had any complaints on these. Bratton has always been good to me so I am going to use them. Will advise if they fail soon (although with the lockdown do not have anywhere to drive it to).
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