Go Back   The Ford Barn > General Discussion > Early V8 (1932-53)

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-06-2016, 10:24 PM   #21
Capt Kirk
Senior Member
 
Capt Kirk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Clarkston MI
Posts: 830
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

I'm not in a hurry to rebuild this. When I left for work this morning I anticipated that it would be my last drive for the season and I got a half block away from home when it broke down. My hardship will be getting it in the trailer for winter storage now. I've got nothing but time. If this was a weekend job, I'd take it on but I don't think it is. I plan on gathering the parts I need and educating myself for what lies ahead this spring. No room for a spare rear end here...in Fairbanks, different story. My first experience digging into a rear end...I'm looking forward to it!!
__________________
35 Ford Cabriolet
56 Chevy Pickup
63 VW Bug
Empty wallet
Capt Kirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2016, 10:43 PM   #22
JM 35 Sedan
Senior Member
 
JM 35 Sedan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Near Rising Sun, Maryland
Posts: 10,856
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Kirk View Post
JM, is there a better option than 3.78 gear ratio for these rear ends? I've had the rear end out of this car so I'm not a stranger to it. I work full time and I've discovered here in MI it's either 90+ and 1000% humidity or 30 below and I don't have an inside environment like I used to. If this is a weekend job then I can swing it...I don't want to be caught by the weather with my car outside if this is a protracted process. I store it in my trailer. If this is more than a quick weekend job, I'd rather put the car to bed for the season, get what I need over the winter and hit it hard in spring when temps are more conducive to human life. This is the last thing I expected!!!
That may depend on who you talk to. In my case, the rear in my fordor sedan, that had 3.78 gears, failed last November. When I tore this rear apart this spring, it was a complete disaster internally. I liked the 3.78 gears, but did not have a spare set with 10 spline pinion. I did have a set of 3.54, 10 spline gears, so decided to use those even though many assured me I would not like that ratio in hilly country. Long story short, it took me nearly a month to take the rear completely out, take it apart, gather all the parts I needed, and get my car back together and ready for a ~ 1350 mile one way/2800 round trip, to Talsa, Oklahoma in June. I took the high roads going out, over the hills and mountains of MD, WVA, and PA, and never had a problem going over those hills and mountains, and never had to downshift going up these inclines. As open road gears, I really like these 3.54's

If you take that rear all the way out, completely dismantling it, carefully inspecting each component, possibly finding issues with other things besides a broken axle, that you will need to find and replace, then carefully and accurately setting bearing preloads, gear backlash by shifting shims (gaskets) from side to side, then doing a final inspection of actual gear mesh, and finally torquing everything to specifications and reassemble this into your car, it will NOT be a weekend job, at least for me it wouldn't. The only gotcha that I can see with putting it to bed and gathering all the parts you need to do this in the spring is....you really won't know exactly what you need until you take the rear apart.
It's a tough call on what to expect next when playing with these early Ford V-8's, but honestly, for me, its all part of the fun.
__________________
John

"Never give up on what you really want to do. The person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts". Albert Einstein

Last edited by JM 35 Sedan; 09-07-2016 at 09:18 AM. Reason: clarifing why it's not a weekend job
JM 35 Sedan is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 09-06-2016, 10:48 PM   #23
Newc
Senior Member
 
Newc's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,462
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

Hi all; remember Vern Tardel has a great new book on rear diff's. Newc
Newc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 12:36 AM   #24
1oldtimer
Senior Member
 
1oldtimer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: South Orange County, Ca.
Posts: 680
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

Take a look at these, I'm in the process of putting together a modified banjo for my '28.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t...st-one.981464/

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t...o-axle.812569/

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/t...ebuild.462776/
1oldtimer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 01:31 AM   #25
ford38v8
Senior Member
 
ford38v8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 6,616
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

The job can certainly be a weekend job for one who has had prior experience doing it. I had built my diff from scratch, but unknowingly installed an axle set with cracks. When an axle let go 1000 miles from home, I got lucky in being able to use a fellow Fordist's garage and beer refrigerator, as well as access to his bone yard! 36 hours later, I was on the road again.

No, you do not have to remove the torque tube, but will have to remove the spring and shocks. As mentioned before, you may want to make a career out of the job, but just for axles, piece of cake.
__________________
Alan
ford38v8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 01:54 AM   #26
flatheadfan
Senior Member
 
flatheadfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Michigan
Posts: 1,218
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
I just went through pulling apart a rear axle on a '36 without removing the entire rear axle assembly from under the car. Generally speaking everything went rather smooth . If you do need a rear axle shaft the part number for a '35 -'38 (48-4235), 32.85" - 18 teeth. A real challenge was trying to find a good axle shaft. Not many of them out there. I do have some pictures of what I did. If interested send me your email via PM and I will dig out what I have and send them to you.

Tom
flatheadfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 07:19 AM   #27
Kerk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 642
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

I had a similar thing happen to me and it was the driveshaft broke at the end of the tube driveshaft where the spline piece was welded to the tube. Trailered it home and that is what I found after about 12000 to 13000 miles of trouble free miles. Just my story. kerk
Kerk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 07:41 AM   #28
Capt Kirk
Senior Member
 
Capt Kirk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Clarkston MI
Posts: 830
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

After sleeping on this, I decided that I'll take on the project if I can find an axle before I get started. I don't want the car apart, sitting in front of the garage, all winter because I can't find the parts to fix it. As I mentioned, I'm not sure if this is the original diff to the car or if my dad swapped it out when he converted it over to juice brakes. What do I need to look for to determine what diff I have and what axle I need?
__________________
35 Ford Cabriolet
56 Chevy Pickup
63 VW Bug
Empty wallet
Capt Kirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 08:39 AM   #29
Mart
Senior Member
 
Mart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Solihull, England.
Posts: 8,733
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

Have a look where the spring attaches to the axle. If the attachment points on the axle are part of the axle casing, it is a 37-40 axle. If the attachment points are on an extension of the radius arms and are bolted to the axle then that is 35/36.

In theory any complete rear end assembly 35-40 ought to bolt in. Obviously if it is exacly the same it may be simpler with regards to running the brake lines etc.

I meant to reply earlier to say that if you jack up the rear and pull each wheel, one of them ought to pull right out. This will confirm the broken axle diagnosis. If one does not pull right out, it may be because it is catching on the brakes or safety hubs or retainers have been fitted in the past.
One other thing, is the speedo working when the car is supposed to be, but not driving? If it is it means the problem is rearward of the gearbox, if it isn't, the fault is in the gearbox or clutch.

No harm in doing a little testing to try and isolate the problem.

If it were me and the tests show it is an axle, I would first get an axle and then only partially dismantle the left side of the casing. This would allow the diff unit and the axle shafts as an assembly to be withdrawn. they can be fitted up with new shafts and reassembled. With luck, if the gaskets do not get torn it can be bolted back together and back up and running in a relatively short time.

Mart.

Last edited by Mart; 09-07-2016 at 08:54 AM.
Mart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 09:12 AM   #30
Capt Kirk
Senior Member
 
Capt Kirk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Clarkston MI
Posts: 830
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

Thanks Mart, I will run home and take some pictures of what I have...I don't believe the attachment points are bolted on but will check. I'm certain it's a broken axle. In neutral with the engine running, there's a slow and steady clink, clink, clink coming from the rear end and when I put my ear on the axle tube, it's clear the noise is coming from within. I can also grab the left rear tire and rock it back and forth with quite a bit of movement...it never did that before.
I mentioned that this will be a driveway project but failed to mention that once the axle is out of the car, I can set up a table in the garage and work on it inside...I just can't fit the whole car in there...sigh!
__________________
35 Ford Cabriolet
56 Chevy Pickup
63 VW Bug
Empty wallet
Capt Kirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 09:34 AM   #31
JSeery
Member Emeritus
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 16,132
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

I've already suggested this is not the way I would go about it, I would remove the whole axle assembly and go through it. However, if you want to go the one axle replacement only approach be sure you understand how the gaskets determine the backlash and bearing load. If the existing gaskets do not come off intact, then you need to be sure of the thickness of them. Any new gaskets must remain identical to the existing ones.

Some of this may help (if you can read it!). Found a slightly clearer copy of one of the pages.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Fordrer1.jpg (51.8 KB, 65 views)
File Type: jpg Fordrer2.jpg (48.6 KB, 62 views)
File Type: jpg Fordrer3.jpg (46.1 KB, 53 views)
File Type: jpg Fordrer4.jpg (41.8 KB, 42 views)
File Type: jpg scan0003.jpg (68.6 KB, 37 views)

Last edited by JSeery; 09-07-2016 at 09:50 AM.
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 10:03 AM   #32
JM 35 Sedan
Senior Member
 
JM 35 Sedan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Near Rising Sun, Maryland
Posts: 10,856
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

Capt, if your axle housings look like these, with the angled flange welded in place like these for rear wishbone attachment, then you would have a '35-'36 rear.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 35 Ford Banjo Rear Rebuild 20.jpg (51.0 KB, 89 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20160605_151532708(1).jpg (72.2 KB, 80 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20160607_154100940_HDR(1).jpg (36.7 KB, 73 views)
__________________
John

"Never give up on what you really want to do. The person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts". Albert Einstein
JM 35 Sedan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 10:27 AM   #33
JSeery
Member Emeritus
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 16,132
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

JM, also aren't these in the years where you have to consider the spider gears teeth counts? I know there are different spider gears (teeth count wise) but are the axle teeth counts different as well?
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 10:37 AM   #34
JM 35 Sedan
Senior Member
 
JM 35 Sedan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Near Rising Sun, Maryland
Posts: 10,856
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSeery View Post
JM, also aren't these in the years where you have to consider the spider gears teeth counts? I know there are different spider gears (teeth count wise) but are the axle teeth counts different as well?
Yes there are different tooth count on axles used in the '35 to '40 rears. The earlier rears in this range have 18 teeth on their axles, while the later versions have 16 teeth. They can be interchanged, but only when using the same tooth count axles, and the appropriate spider gears as an assembly.
__________________
John

"Never give up on what you really want to do. The person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts". Albert Einstein
JM 35 Sedan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 10:52 AM   #35
JM 35 Sedan
Senior Member
 
JM 35 Sedan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Near Rising Sun, Maryland
Posts: 10,856
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Kirk View Post
Thanks Mart, I will run home and take some pictures of what I have...I don't believe the attachment points are bolted on but will check. I'm certain it's a broken axle. In neutral with the engine running, there's a slow and steady clink, clink, clink coming from the rear end and when I put my ear on the axle tube, it's clear the noise is coming from within. I can also grab the left rear tire and rock it back and forth with quite a bit of movement...it never did that before.
I mentioned that this will be a driveway project but failed to mention that once the axle is out of the car, I can set up a table in the garage and work on it inside...I just can't fit the whole car in there...sigh!
In neutral with engine running you hear a clink clink clink?? This would not necessarily mean a broken axle to me because the rear gears should not be turning when trans is in neutral. What does the speedometer head do when engine is running, transmission is in gear, and clutch pedal is all the way out, and what type of noise do you hear at the rear then? Keep in mind that noises can travel on the drive train. What noises you think are coming from the rear could actually be coming from the front area of the torque tube (i.e. U joint area), or the transmission, and vice versa.
__________________
John

"Never give up on what you really want to do. The person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts". Albert Einstein

Last edited by JM 35 Sedan; 09-07-2016 at 11:11 AM.
JM 35 Sedan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 10:55 AM   #36
JSeery
Member Emeritus
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 16,132
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

Thanks JM, I'm a QC guy, so things are a little different. But I remember the spider gear issue. I built my QC with 9 inch axles and the V8 center section so it uses the original Ford V8 spider gears. Had to sort out the spider gear tooth count.
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 10:57 AM   #37
JSeery
Member Emeritus
 
JSeery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Wichita KS
Posts: 16,132
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan View Post
In neutral with engine running you hear a clink clink clink?? What does the speedometer head do when engine is running, transmission is in gear, and clutch pedal is all the way out, and what type of noise do you hear at the rear then?
Good catch, why would there be any sounds coming from the rear axle with the transmission in neutral?
JSeery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 01:25 PM   #38
Capt Kirk
Senior Member
 
Capt Kirk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Clarkston MI
Posts: 830
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JM 35 Sedan View Post
In neutral with engine running you hear a clink clink clink?? This would not necessarily mean a broken axle to me because the rear gears should not be turning when trans is in neutral. What does the speedometer head do when engine is running, transmission is in gear, and clutch pedal is all the way out, and what type of noise do you hear at the rear then? Keep in mind that noises can travel on the drive train. What noises you think are coming from the rear could actually be coming from the front area of the torque tube (i.e. U joint area), or the transmission, and vice versa.
With the trans in neutral (and in gear), there is a ticking noise coming from the rear end. I thought it could be that the axle didn't break in a plane perpendicular to the axis of the axle and as the rotating half of the axle came in contact with the stationary half of the axle, it makes a click. Won't a transmission have a "float" rotation in neutral if there's nothing to prevent it from rotating? The clicking sound is similar in neutral and in gear but I didn't want to crawl under a running car with it in gear so I could put my ear to the axle.
__________________
35 Ford Cabriolet
56 Chevy Pickup
63 VW Bug
Empty wallet
Capt Kirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 01:31 PM   #39
Capt Kirk
Senior Member
 
Capt Kirk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Clarkston MI
Posts: 830
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

First batch of pics
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0657.jpg (54.2 KB, 95 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0658.jpg (48.2 KB, 105 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0659.jpg (64.8 KB, 104 views)
__________________
35 Ford Cabriolet
56 Chevy Pickup
63 VW Bug
Empty wallet
Capt Kirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 01:37 PM   #40
Capt Kirk
Senior Member
 
Capt Kirk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Clarkston MI
Posts: 830
Default Re: Awwe Crap!

Last batch of pics. I measured from the face of the backing plate to the banjo flange and if memory serves, it was 24 5/8"
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0660.jpg (47.9 KB, 66 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0661.jpg (34.0 KB, 61 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0662.jpg (51.7 KB, 69 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0663.jpg (46.5 KB, 62 views)
__________________
35 Ford Cabriolet
56 Chevy Pickup
63 VW Bug
Empty wallet
Capt Kirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:49 AM.