NEW A Engine

[Ice man]

Just got the latest up date from Terry Burtz [email protected] He has the first casting ready and it will be at the MAFCA Vancouver,Canada Show. 5 Mains, Balanced Crank, 2 Rear seals. WOW. Iceman

[Model A Man]

It's been a long haul for him. I am so looking forward to when production is up and running. I so want one/two

[Mike V. Florida]

For the projected price it might be the end of stock engines for the non-judged car. I think I remember the price for a short block was to be around $3000.00. With the correct boltons we are looking at a 150 Hp 4000 rpm engine that looks as close to dead on stock at possible.

[Model A Man]

on a judged car would the judges be able to tell if it was a stock block or a new one from Terry?

[29RPU]

Wow, I wonder if that will be a loss for the OD companies! I bet they will have trouble keeping up with demand for awhile...maybe not during these economic times....really cool!

[John LaVoy]

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Looking at the casting of the new block I have it is going to be difficult for a judge to tell the new block from an original. I will have the new block on display at the MAFCA meet in my booth at the swap meet.

[Thom IV]

What a great improvement it will be for the vehicle. Much safer in traffic and it wll allow the owner much more utility. Much success to him.

[BCCHOPIT]

Originally Posted by Ice man

Just got the latest up date from Terry Burtz [email protected] He has the first casting ready and it will be at the MAFCA Vancouver,Canada Show. 5 Mains, Balanced Crank, 2 Rear seals. WOW. Iceman

Is there any pics of the block and crank on line anywhere?
thanks Bill

[Larry Brumfield]

How much will the total price be once all the guts are added to make a complete SHORT block?

1. crank
2. pistons
3. rods
4. bearings
5. gears
6. cam
7. valves
8. lifters
9. what else?

[JoeWay]

Originally Posted by forever4

Just curious how it will be any safer?

The engine is carryover bore stroke, etc, and will not make a single HP more...

Well--might make a couple more HP. Terry told me in email that "...the opening where the intake manifold mounts is opened up to Model B size (1.50 inch dia)." That should help get more air/fuel mix into the cylinders if a B manifold or modified A manifold is used.

I would think it should be fairly easy to get it to 75-80 HP with the right head/cam/carb, etc. That combined with smoother operation and higher RPM will make it practical to drive at highway speeds, especially with OD or high-ratio gearing.

Just be sure your brakes and steering are up to snuff!! (What the heck does that mean, anyhow--up to snuff?)

Joe

[JoeWay]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

Is there any pics of the block and crank on line anywhere?
thanks Bill

http://www.modelaengine.com/

Joe

[JoeWay]

Originally Posted by Larry Brumfield

How much will the total price be once all the guts are added to make a complete SHORT block?

1. crank
2. pistons
3. rods
4. bearings
5. gears
6. cam
7. valves
8. lifters
9. what else?

Crank, rods and bearings will be included. Maybe another $1100-$1200 with a NEW cam and a GOOD head? I've already started collecting parts.

I think the Burtz engine will increase the demand for good heads, Larry.

Joe

Joe

[Larry Brumfield]

Originally Posted by JoeWay

I would think it should be fairly easy to get it to 75-80 HP with the right head/cam/carb, etc. That combined with smoother operation and higher RPM will make it practical to drive at highway speeds, especially with OD or high-ratio gearing.

Joe

All of the above is easy to do right now.

Larry B.

[Larry Brumfield]

Originally Posted by JoeWay

Crank, rods and bearings will be included.

Joe

You get the block plus crank, rods and bearings ..... ALL for 3000 dollars?

Larry B.

[BCCHOPIT]

Originally Posted by JoeWay

http://www.modelaengine.com/

Joe

thanks Joe but it didn't work

Server not found

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by JoeWay

Just be sure your brakes and steering are up to snuff!! (What the heck does that mean, anyhow--up to snuff?)

Joe

Since you asked, from Merriam Webster:
— up to snuff : of sufficient quality : meeting an applicable standard

[Rowdy]

I beleive that was the price suggested about 6 years ago. Likely with the economy, time and unexpected expences it will be closer to 5K now. I am sure the meetings with the various people and places involved will push it beyond a reasonable cost. I have over 30 original blocks set back, so not likely I will be buying a new one any time soon, although I get the monthly update and enjoy seeing the progress. Rod

[JoeWay]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

thanks Joe but it didn't work

Server not found

Must have been a temporary glitch. Works for me right now in IE and FireFox.

Try it again.

Joe

http://www.modelaengine.com/

[vinepro]

This will increase the amount of people putting new engines in there cars and trucks, but it will also make a lot of good engines for sale when people use the new Burts engine witch will be good for people who can't get one. This is going to be great.

[MCHinson]

Wow, that was an interesting link. I do wonder what the cost will actually turn out to be.

[JoeWay]

Originally Posted by Rowdy

I beleive that was the price suggested about 6 years ago. Likely with the economy, time and unexpected expences it will be closer to 5K now. ... Rod

As of April of this year, Terry says "Target price is $3000 for a new cylinder block, crankshaft and 4 connecting rods..."

In another email he also mentions the bearings will be included.

Joe

[Larry Brumfield]

Originally Posted by JoeWay

As of April of this year, Terry says "Target price is $3000 for a new cylinder block, crankshaft and 4 connecting rods..."

In another email he also mentions the bearings will be included.

Joe

More than likely that target is going to grow and may grow some more.

The last e-mail he sent to me he was looking for investors to buy into the deal as he either didn't have the money necessary or was not willing to spend more of his own.

How about it out there? It can't be any worse than the stock market or the measly 3% at the bank. Or can it?

If all the bugs were worked out (and there WILL be bugs) I might invest or handle the machine work.

Once the scrap rate and all the work involved are actually performed and worked out the price may rise rapidly because I can assure you that foundries will not eat very many scraps or do a lot of work without a price to go with it, especially a quality foundry, ISO 9000. If you don't agree you'll be asked to move on. Been there and done that.

Moreover, all of us with machining capability and machines do our best to estimate the time but sometimes it takes more than orginally thought, so the price goes up accordingly.


Larry B.

[JoeWay]

I said "...75-80 HP..."

Originally Posted by Larry Brumfield

All of the above is easy to do right now.

Larry B.

Yes, the HP is relatively easy to achieve. How about sustained reliable operation at 3500 RPM? I have a counterbalanced crank and well-balanced reciprocating parts and flywheel, but I shudder to think of taking my engine to 3500 RPM and staying there, as for instance on the freeway for hours.

What's your take on maximum sustained RPM for a stock-block, balanced A engine, Larry?

Thanks.

Joe

[Larry Brumfield]

Joe, line 'em up and ask how many will rev their Model A's up in the 3500 RPM range and the corresponding road speed that goes with it in high gear. Most won't do it even if you prove to them that the engine will stand it.


Larry B.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Rowdy

I beleive that was the price suggested about 6 years ago. Likely with the economy, time and unexpected expences it will be closer to 5K now. I am sure the meetings with the various people and places involved will push it beyond a reasonable cost. I have over 30 original blocks set back, so not likely I will be buying a new one any time soon, although I get the monthly update and enjoy seeing the progress. Rod

Rod,
How many of the 30 have 'five mains' and a 'new modern tech crank/rods,etc'. I figure that my current NOS B block, with all the trick stuff...is making 80+. I figure when I put similar or better stuff onto new stronger modern tech 5 main block. Well, I'm getting at least two..can not wait!! Rick

[MikeK]

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Originally Posted by Model A Man

on a judged car would the judges be able to tell if it was a stock block or a new one from Terry?

That will depend on two things: 1) What is written into future J.S. revisions to look at/for; and 2) how qualified (notice I didn't say "good") the judges are.

Having made Foundry castings for almost 30 years, it is fairly easy to I.D. the type of foundry sand, binders, and additives from the surface finish of the casting, both the external "green sand" mold surfaces and the cored surfaces.

The preliminary photos I received from Terry (New Engine Update Email) show many issues still to be addressed. Visible are shifts, green sand breakouts, and penetration/ sand burn/in, all to be addressed before production. Even with the proper additives and washes to the chem set cores and synthetic green sand mix used by the Lodi foundry, it will never be possible to get a perfect match to my eyes. The collective sieve grain distribution of the sand used by the Rouge and Lodi will never match, nor will the surface "peel" effected by organic sand additives at the Rouge (wood flour, molasses) and the modern adds at Lodi.

It may be close to some eyes, coverable with a heavy two coat paint job (over-restored???), and will look perfect in the average "A", but wether or not it prompts changes to the J.S. to look for specific clues remains to be seen. At the rate the standards are revised, you will probably be safe 'till 2025. But not to my eyes, ever.

Would I want a Burtz block? Heck yea, but under one of my Yapp/ Rileys for 150 H.P., not in my J.S. correct (well, sort of) roadster. Depending on the grade of iron Terry Burtz specs, you may be able to redrill the block and your heads for 1/2" ARP or aircraft head studs and crank 100+ foot pounds on them. That may help keep the head gasket under some high power heads and engines.

[Larry Brumfield]

Originally Posted by MikeK

Having made Foundry castings for almost 30 years, it is fairly easy to I.D. the type of foundry sand, binders, and additives from the surface finish of the casting, both the external "green sand" mold surfaces and the cored surfaces.

The preliminary photos I received from Terry (New Engine Update Email) show many issues still to be addressed. Visible are shifts, green sand breakouts, and penetration/ sand burn/in, all to be addressed before production. Even with the proper additives and washes to the chem set cores and synthetic green sand mix used by the Lodi foundry, it will never be possible to get a perfect match to my eyes. The collective sieve grain distribution of the sand used by the Rouge and Lodi will never match, nor will the surface "peel" effected by organic sand additives at the Rouge (wood flour, molasses) and the modern adds at Lodi.

It may be close to some eyes, coverable with a heavy two coat paint job (over-restored???), and will look perfect in the average "A", but wether or not it prompts changes to the J.S. to look for specific clues remains to be seen. At the rate the standards are revised, you will probably be safe 'till 2025. But not to my eyes, ever.

I've not received one of his e-mails in quite awhile and have seen no pictures. Are you sure that it's green sand?

I hope he didn't use green sand. Modern green sand castings have a different look all together. They are generally not very smooth in my opinion.

Moreover, people not familiar with foundry work don't realize how sensitive molten iron is as far as transferring the smallest details (texture of the particular sand used, etc.) to the casting. Many people seem to think the molten iron is about like lava when it flows. Not so. It's about like water as it flows and will transfer the slightest detail!

So the end result will be a casting that will work as intended, but it may be real easy to tell them from the original.

Moreover, not only will "shift," "burn in," etc. have to be controlled before production, there may also be other surprises that won't show up until machining, such as shrink tears for example. They may even show up intermittently!

As I said there will be bugs. It's not easy to cast water jacketed parts with internal cores and many foundries want no part of it. I hope Lodi has considerable previous experience with large parts of this nature because they're going to need it.


Larry B.

[raprice]

In John LaVoy's magazine, Model A Times, there's the article about the new Model A engine. Very well done and very interesting. I'm looking forward to seeing on of these new engines
Rog

[Tom Foster]

Originally Posted by Larry Brumfield

Joe, line 'em up and ask how many will rev their Model A's up in the 3500 RPM range and the corresponding road speed that goes with it in high gear. Most won't do it even if you prove to them that the engine will stand it.


Larry B.

3500 rpm = 25mph in low and 40mph in second. Did it at the Addison 'hill'climb with my 5.9 Brumfield head and balanced crank with a B carb. But I don't think I'll try it in high...
Fearless

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

Without actually knowing, I'll make a horseback guess that he went to China for the castings! Why do I say that? Because Bilt-rite (sp) tractor was getting brandy new Ford 8N engines from there and retailing them for around $1800 (IIRC) I'm sure it's more today, but the point is that there are factories in China that scratch build engines for export.
Terry

I would tend to think that the prototype blocks would be made here as it would be easier to witness the progress. But I'm with you on China for the final production run

[Terry, NJ]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

I would tend to think that the prototype blocks would be made here as it would be easier to witness the progress. But I'm with you on China for the final production run

Mike, I deleted the post. Reasons? I gave the wrong name of the company (It's Valu-bilt, not Bilt-rite) Secondly, I went to their site and could scarcely pull up anything related to the 8N, let alone the new engines I saw a few years ago. I have got to learn to confirm my info before I spout off about it!
Terry

[Chris Haynes]

3,500 RPM in my AA with a 5:14 rearend sould be legal freeway speed.

[Milton]

"I would tend to think that the prototype blocks would be made here as it would be easier to witness the progress."

Mike V.
Lodi Iron Works, Inc. in California.

[pat in Santa Cruz]

Terry brought the engine to the last meeting of the Santa Clara Valley Chapter. I was impressed. The crankshaft is heavy, 5 large diameter main bearings with massive caps. The bottom end of this engine will not flex around like a stock A or B. The intake ports are 45 degrees to the larger intake valves instead of 2, 90 degree turns. Breathing will be better than any stock block could ever be. Of course if you put an overhead on it that will not matter. But it should be capable of high rpms without risking ruination, and it should be smooooth running.

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by Larry Brumfield

How much will the total price be once all the guts are added to make a complete SHORT block?

1. crank
2. pistons
3. rods
4. bearings
5. gears
6. cam
7. valves
8. lifters
9. what else?

Larry,
The block comes with crank, rods, seals, and bearings

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by Rowdy

I beleive that was the price suggested about 6 years ago. Likely with the economy, time and unexpected expences it will be closer to 5K now. I am sure the meetings with the various people and places involved will push it beyond a reasonable cost. I have over 30 original blocks set back, so not likely I will be buying a new one any time soon, although I get the monthly update and enjoy seeing the progress. Rod

When I saw the block, crank, and rods at the Turlock meet in January I was told the price was $3,000.00.

[Mike Mc]

Chris, I'm assuming bearing inserts. Do you know what the oiling will be, pressure fewd or the current 'original' 'A oiling?

Regards
Mike.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

When I saw the block, crank, and rods at the Turlock meet in January I was told the price was $3,000.00.

Chris,
So Terry is holding, so far, to his original price!
Q..was the block machined when you saw it and assembled with crank?

[Chris Haynes]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Chris,
So Terry is holding, so far, to his original price!
Q..was the block machined when you saw it and assembled with crank?

The block was their first casting. It was machined but for all intents and purposes it was worthless because of some casting flaws. The crank and rods were also finished. The rod caps are on an angle to the rod to allow for clearance between the boss for the rod bolts and the cam.

[Dick So. Cal.]

Just a note for those interested in Terry's new engine.
Terry will be holding a Technical seminar on Thursday afternoon at the 2011 MARC National Meet in San Diego, June 27th to July 1st.
He hopes to have a complete unit to show the folks.
Registration forms for the Meet are in the Jan-Feb edition of the Model A News.
Hope to see you there.

Dick

[SteveB31]

At $3000 with crank, rods, main and rod bearings , I think that is a bargain. You add crank gear, cam gear, cam, valves, guides, springs, oil pump, head studs, gaskets etc, and your head, valve cover etc, oil pan off your old motor and you have a complete 5 main inserted engine for under $4000- sounds like a bargain- if that price holds out It is a good buy in my mind. Only time will tell.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by Chris Haynes

The block was their first casting. It was machined but for all intents and purposes it was worthless because of some casting flaws. The crank and rods were also finished. The rod caps are on an angle to the rod to allow for clearance between the boss for the rod bolts and the cam.

Chris,
Angled rod caps, isn't that also used in modern engine construction 'for added rod end strenth'? These rods(Chev ?) must be something off the shelf, as Terry indicated that some parts (inserts,etc)would be easily available? Be nice if anyone going to the coming seminar could post a rundown here...gas is nearing $4. a gallon here..yikes!!!

[Milton]

From Terry's Sep2010 update,

"As mentioned in the last update, the connecting rod design was refined. Changes included adding ribs to the cap to make it stiffer, adding a glob of material at the top of the small end that can be partially removed during the balancing operation, and increasing the fillet radii where the small end joins the I-beam section. I’ve also decided to use 2 roll pins to index the cap to the big end of the connecting rod. Other methods of indexing were considered including special studs or bolts with a precise diameter, hollow dowel pins (or drill bushings) around the bolts or studs, and small dowel pins away from the bolts. If anyone has experience or a comment regarding cap indexing, please comment. Bolts chosen are 12 point “off the shelf” (McMaster Carr 91271A641) which have a minimum tensile strength of 170,000 psi. Figures 1 and 2 show the updated connecting rod assembly."

[BobinDallas]

I have used high strength steel precision hollow close fit bushings, line to line fit between the cap and rod body and close fit to the rod bolt on high HP aluminum rods with good results. If I remember correctly, several OEM used this method years ago. The modern method is "cracked rods" which are broken along a scribed line using precision tooling. The fine hills and valleys provide and exact alignment when assembled. No provisions for rebuilding the rod by surfacing cap/body though.

Good luck on the project.