Aluminum Flywheel

[jrvariel48]

I'm installing an aluminum flywheel and I wanted to know if the original spacer between the crank and the flywheel should be reinstalled.
Thank you, Joe

[Tinker]

No spacer. Shield maybe. not a spacer

[jrvariel48]

Thanks Tinker!

[Tinker]

Curious what spacer? flywheel to crank? I learn something everyday.

[GOSFAST]

Hi Joe, wasn't sure what "plate" you meant, there's generally none between the crank and the wheel, but there is a dowel pin retainer plate goes on after the wheel.

It keeps the locating pins in place in the event they ever come lose. I have a bunch of these plates here!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Here's a shot of one, also will get back later today on the pressure plate bolts, I believe have some at the shop, will be getting them here later today!

[Tim Ayers]

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Yes it should and it goes between the bolts and flywheel and NOT between the crank and flywheel.

[Bored&Stroked]

Make sure your flywheel bolts are long enough to catch ALL of the crankshaft flange threads. Aluminum flywheels can have a thicker bolt flange - making the actual original bolts too short.

I always buy new ARP bolts, I do use the above plate and I always use Red Loctite on the threads.

The only thing to ponder is many of these plates are really scared up - so using hardened steel flat washers under the flywheel bolts is another way to do it. I've never seen the locating pins be loose, but Gary does have a good point on that aspect of using the full plate.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Make sure your flywheel bolts are long enough to catch ALL of the crankshaft flange threads. Aluminum flywheels can have a thicker bolt flange - making the actual original bolts too short.

I always buy new ARP bolts, I do use the above plate and I always use Red Loctite on the threads.

The only thing to ponder is many of these plates are really scared up - so using hardened steel flat washers under the flywheel bolts is another way to do it. I've never seen the locating pins be loose, but Gary does have a good point on that aspect of using the full plate.

Curious about using washers versus a plate?

[Ronnieroadster]

Guys Joe is asking about a spacer plate between the crank and flywheel. Hes not asking about a plate between the flywheel and mounting bolts. Joe since there is a difference between early and late Flathead flywheels which causes the ring gear heights at times to not be the same and rear flywheel surface interference a spacer between the crankshaft and flywheel is used at times if a late flywheel is being used on the early crank or if the early flywheel is being used on a late crank. The exact offset difference is not a lot but at times will create two possible problems one with the starter bendix and two some interference with the oil pump idler gear drive cover to the rear of certain flywheels.
Ronnieroadsters

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Guys Joe is asking about a spacer plate between the crank and flywheel. Hes not asking about a plate between the flywheel and mounting bolts. Joe since there is a difference between early and late Flathead flywheels which causes the ring gear heights at times to not be the same and rear flywheel surface interference a spacer between the crankshaft and flywheel is used at times if a late flywheel is being used on the early crank or if the early flywheel is being used on a late crank. The exact offset difference is not a lot but at times will create two possible problems one with the starter bendix and two some interference with the oil pump idler gear drive cover to the rear of certain flywheels.
Ronnieroadsters

That's correct Ronnie! What's the best way to check this before the motor is installed??!! I was planning on using a Powermaster starter and was wondering how to get the correct backspacing. I see they make one for the French block which I was told is the one to use.
Anybody have this set-up?
Thank you!

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

That's correct Ronnie! What's the best way to check this before the motor is installed??!! I was planning on using a Powermaster starter and was wondering how to get the correct backspacing. I see they make one for the French block which I was told is the one to use.
Anybody have this set-up?
Thank you!

Joe when i use the Powermaster starter or any other brand I always measure how far the gear will come out from the starter surface that sits on the oil pan i use a simple steel 6 inch ruler that has a T slide. The T slide is placed on the back of the gear {the back being the farthest in towards the transmission} when the gear is fully pulled out of the starter. Next i simply place the ruler on the starter surface of the oil pan and now see how far into the ring gear the starter gear will engage. The same measuring can be done with a dial or digital vernier.
When i make the flywheels for my race car I always have to measure the gear engagement If I find its not what I want I machine the starters mounting surface so i get as much gear engagement as possible.
Ronnieroadster

[frnkeore]

Be very careful, of any spacer that you put between the crank and flywheel.

It needs to be perfectly flat. Not just "look" flat but, measured. Just a burr or .001 variation, will put your flywheel, out of spec for axial run out at the outer diameter.

[jrvariel48]

Thank you everyone! Great advice as usual!

[jrvariel48]

While on the topic of the flywheel, can someone point me in the right direction for the correct bolts for an 8BA and the correct pilot bearing/bushing.
Thank you, Joe

[19Fordy]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

While on the topic of the flywheel, can someone point me in the right direction for the correct bolts for an 8BA and the correct pilot bearing/bushing.
Thank you, Joe

Here's some flywheel bolts.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Ford-fl...gAAOSwHLFa7m2k

Here's a bearing like the one I used.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1949-1950-1...kAAOSw5WVamV1D

[Ronnieroadster]

Joe the pilot bearing you need is simply a 203 bearing its very common used for lots of applications you should be able to find them for way less than $10.00
Ronnieroadster

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Here's some flywheel bolts.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Ford-fl...gAAOSwHLFa7m2k

Here's a bearing like the one I used.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1949-1950-1...kAAOSw5WVamV1D

Thanks 19, but I'm looking for the flywheel to crank bolts.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Joe the pilot bearing you need is simply a 203 bearing its very common used for lots of applications you should be able to find them for way less than $10.00
Ronnieroadster

Thanks Ronnie! I don't know if this makes a difference or not, but this would be for a Ram aluminum flywheel. I have a pilot bearing from Speedway and it's a loose fit. I would think the hole size is the same, but I could be wrong.

[jrvariel48]

Also wanted to mention it's a T5
Thanks

[19Fordy]

Will these work? I recall that in 1970 when I installed a WEBER aluminum flywheel in my 8BA I used the stock flywheel bolts.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-1928-53...EAAOSwdnZaGgXJ

[solidaxle]

Since we are on the subject of aluminum flywheels. Are there two different Albro models. One for early flat heads and one for 8ba's?

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Thanks Ronnie! I don't know if this makes a difference or not, but this would be for a Ram aluminum flywheel. I have a pilot bearing from Speedway and it's a loose fit. I would think the hole size is the same, but I could be wrong.

Joe the pilot bearing hole in the aluminum flywheel should be the same as the stock Ford Flathead. The 203 bearing fits all of the aluminum flywheels as well as the stock Ford flywheel perfectly. At least the many I have had my hands on. Its possible the speedway item is not correct which would not be a surprise to me. I can measure the T-5 input shaft pilot size and let you know for sure if the ID of the 203 bearing will work memory tells me it will but I can check for sure since I have everything available in my shop.
Ronnieroadster

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Will these work? I recall that in 1970 when I installed a WEBER aluminum flywheel in my 8BA I used the stock flywheel bolts.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-1928-53...EAAOSwdnZaGgXJ

Oh those look good! I'll ask him what length they are and we should be good to go! Thanks 19!

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by solidaxle

Since we are on the subject of aluminum flywheels. Are there two different Albro models. One for early flat heads and one for 8ba's?

I don't know for sure, but I'd have to say yes. Ram makes early and late.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Joe the pilot bearing hole in the aluminum flywheel should be the same as the stock Ford Flathead. The 203 bearing fits all of the aluminum flywheels as well as the stock Ford flywheel perfectly. At least the many I have had my hands on. Its possible the speedway item is not correct which would not be a surprise to me. I can measure the T-5 input shaft pilot size and let you know for sure if the ID of the 203 bearing will work memory tells me it will but I can check for sure since I have everything available in my shop.
Ronnieroadster

Ronnie, I checked to OD on the Speedway bearing and it's good at 1.575 which is what it's advertised at. The ID is also fine at .590 for the T5 input shaft.
I'm concerned the hole in the flywheel is to large, but I haven't got an exact measurement on it yet. I sure hope not, I have some money invested in it with redrilling and balancing! I sent an email to Ram, but haven't heard from them. I wonder if anyone makes one oversized?
Thanks, Joe

[jrvariel48]

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I just measured the flywheel and I'm coming up with 1.574.
Then I remeasured the pilot bearing and it's 1.572.
Seems like that may be the problem. I don't know if I can get a bearing with a better measurement. Any thoughts?
Thanks

[Ronnieroadster]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

I just measured the flywheel and I'm coming up with 1.574.
Then I remeasured the pilot bearing and it's 1.572.
Seems like that may be the problem. I don't know if I can get a bearing with a better measurement. Any thoughts?
Thanks

Joe i will check using your dimensions comparing to the 203 size. If its determined the flywheel hole is the problem and considering what you already have invested in it at this point the only thing you can do is have it bored out oversize so an aluminum sleeve can be installed that has the correct ID for the pilot bearing.
Ronieroadster

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Joe i will check using your dimensions comparing to the 203 size. If its determined the flywheel hole is the problem and considering what you already have invested in it at this point the only thing you can do is have it bored out oversize so an aluminum sleeve can be installed that has the correct ID for the pilot bearing.
Ronieroadster

Thanks Ronnie

[Mart]

The stock Ford bearing is metric. It is 40mm. 40mm = 1.5748".

You need to try another bearing.

If this is an adaption all bets are off.

[Ronnieroadster]

Joe measured a few items today first the Ford bronze bushing measures 1.573 the one I measured was used. Also have the Speedway pilot bearing in stock for a build Im doing for someone the bearing is for the T-5 transmission Speedway part number 916-29520 should be the same as the bearing you have from them the OD on the bearing is 1.574. I also measured a used aluminum flywheel the bore diameter for the bearing measured 1.572. Seeing all of this i would agree theres a problem with the bearing hole in your aluminum flywheel. If I was doing this and ran into the problem you have i would bore out the flywheel hole a bit then machine an aluminum bushing to fit as needed I would include a flange on this bushing thats located on the clutch side of the flywheel. To be certain the bushing remains in the flywheel i would simply add a few small Tig welds to the bushing to be sure it stays in place. The material added is so close to the crank center-line you will never notice any balance issues ever in your application.
.
Ronnieroadster

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Joe measured a few items today first the Ford bronze bushing measures 1.573 the one I measured was used. Also have the Speedway pilot bearing in stock for a build Im doing for someone the bearing is for the T-5 transmission Speedway part number 916-29520 should be the same as the bearing you have from them the OD on the bearing is 1.574. I also measured a used aluminum flywheel the bore diameter for the bearing measured 1.572. Seeing all of this i would agree theres a problem with the bearing hole in your aluminum flywheel. If I was doing this and ran into the problem you have i would bore out the flywheel hole a bit then machine an aluminum bushing to fit as needed I would include a flange on this bushing thats located on the clutch side of the flywheel. To be certain the bushing remains in the flywheel i would simply add a few small Tig welds to the bushing to be sure it stays in place. The material added is so close to the crank center-line you will never notice any balance issues ever in your application.
.
Ronnieroadster

Ronnie, thank you for taking the time to check everything for me, I appreciate it very much. It looks like I'm off to the machinist!!
Thanks again,
Joe

[Brian]

The original size bearing [6203 2RS] is 40mm od 17mm id 12mm deep
If you need to pay a machinist to bore and sleeve your flywheel back to size, you might find this is a cheaper option; get the machinist to bore flywheel to 42mm. Fit a 6203A/42-2RS bearing which is 42mm od.

[Tinker]

What's the advantage of a aluminum flywheel outside of circle track or drag racing?

[FritzJr]

Tinker asked "What's the advantage of a aluminum flywheel outside of circle track or drag racing? "


Bragging rights

[Pete]

Originally Posted by FritzJr

Tinker asked "What's the advantage of a aluminum flywheel outside of circle track or drag racing? "


Bragging rights

That's one. I can think of several more.

1-Saftey.
2- Makes shifting much easier.
3- Ruduces torsional vibration in the crank when used with the proper front
damper.
4- Reduces overall weight of the car thus enhancing performance and gas
mileage.

[Tinker]

Pete I know you know your stuff.



To me the weight of the flywheel has some play in overall performance. The lighter it is the quicker it spins up. Good for race. It also does not maintain momentum. A heavier flywheel is good for street use or driving.


Not sure a aluminum flywheel is safer for street use. Maybe drag, without a shield?


All is valid for a race car not a street car.


A heavier flywheel is good for a street or tour car. It creates momentum.


Or I'm wrong. I'm okay with being wrong.



.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Brian

The original size bearing [6203 2RS] is 40mm od 17mm id 12mm deep
If you need to pay a machinist to bore and sleeve your flywheel back to size, you might find this is a cheaper option; get the machinist to bore flywheel to 42mm. Fit a 6203A/42-2RS bearing which is 42mm od.

Brian I thought of doing just that but that bearing has the wrong size ID for my application. I have a T5 trans that uses a 15MM ID bearing
Thanks,
Joe

[JSeery]

You could always go with a bushing. A lot of people prefer the bushing anyway.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Tinker

Pete I know you know your stuff.

To me the weight of the flywheel has some play in overall performance. The lighter it is the quicker it spins up. Good for race. It also does not maintain momentum. A heavier flywheel is good for street use or driving.

Not sure a aluminum flywheel is safer for street use. Maybe drag, without a shield?

All is valid for a race car not a street car.

A heavier flywheel is good for a street or tour car. It creates momentum.

Or I'm wrong. I'm okay with being wrong.

It will depend on the vehicle and what you are wanting to do with it. If it is stock or mildly hopped up and heavy that is one thing. If it is light with a highly modified engine that is another. Some like to just drive them around and some like to hot rod them around. Why would you build a highly modified engine and slap a heavy stock flywheel on it?

[Pete]

I would like to have one of those flywheels that create momentum.
We are talking perpetual motion now.

[Brian]

Brian I thought of doing just that but that bearing has the wrong size ID for my application. I have a T5 trans that uses a 15MM ID bearing


Oh, ok, try a 6303 2RS, sizes 42 x 15 x 13

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by JSeery

You could always go with a bushing. A lot of people prefer the bushing anyway.

J, I think I'll have the same problem with the size I need. Unless, there's a bushing that has a little bigger OD

[flatheadmurre]

As long as the input shaft is in good shape and won´t chew upp the bronze a bushing goes a long way...and they never fail locking up destroying the surface of the shaft.
Get a piece of bronze and make it what size you need.

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by Brian

Brian I thought of doing just that but that bearing has the wrong size ID for my application. I have a T5 trans that uses a 15MM ID bearing


Oh, ok, try a 6303 2RS, sizes 42 x 15 x 13

Brian, the 13mm will not be flush on the flywheel.
Thanks, Joe

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

As long as the input shaft is in good shape and won´t chew upp the bronze a bushing goes a long way...and they never fail locking up destroying the surface of the shaft.
Get a piece of bronze and make it what size you need.

Flat, that's a great idea! I found a piece of stock on McMaster Carr that's made of 841 self lubricating bronze. There's lots of different materials to choose from.
Is the 841 the best choice or should I be looking at something different? While I'm not capable of making this myself, I have a good friend that's a machinist.
Thanks,
Joe

[flatheadmurre]

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The bushing only "slips" when clutch is used so just about any oilbronze will probably work fine...think about how abused that bushing must have been in a heavy truck jumping gears trying to haul rock...and they survived.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

Get a piece of bronze and make it what size you need.

Yes, I was assuming you would be making it. Sorry I wasn't clear about that!

[richard crow]

ford wanted to make sure the dowles in the crank did not come out that,s why the plate is there

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by jrvariel48

Flat, that's a great idea! I found a piece of stock on McMaster Carr that's made of 841 self lubricating bronze. There's lots of different materials to choose from.
Is the 841 the best choice or should I be looking at something different? While I'm not capable of making this myself, I have a good friend that's a machinist.
Thanks,
Joe

https://www.verntardel.com/store/p34...t_Bushing.html

No need to go that far. Vern Tardel sells the bronze pilot bushing from those French flatheads for $8.00.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

https://www.verntardel.com/store/p34...t_Bushing.html

No need to go that far. Vern Tardel sells the bronze pilot bushing from those French flatheads for $8.00.

You would have to know the dimensions to know if it would work.

[Mart]

Same as the standard ball bearing.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Mart

Same as the standard ball bearing.

Ya, I assumed it was, it needs to matching up with the T5 input shaft and aluminum flywheel dimensions.

Per the dimensions being posted in this thread, Ronnie measured a bronze bushing at 1.573 which is smaller than the flywheel being used at 1.574 (needs to be a press fit). Also the stock Ford bushing ID is .669 and the T5 input shaft is .590. That leads to the need to machine a bushing vs purchasing an original Ford bushing.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by JSeery

You would have to know the dimensions to know if it would work.

True. I have one at home and will try to measure it.

[Ronnieroadster]

Making the bushing out of oil-lite bronze bearing stock would be the easiest solution to the problem. While I personally would never run a bronze bushing in this situation its really the best way to go. My personal experience that being extremely high mileage using a pilot bearing I have never experienced any bearing failures. I wonder if it would also help with fuel economy due to less friction compared to a bushing.
Ronnieroadster

[flatheadmurre]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Making the bushing out of oil-lite bronze bearing stock would be the easiest solution to the problem. While I personally would never run a bronze bushing in this situation its really the best way to go. My personal experience that being extremely high mileage using a pilot bearing I have never experienced any bearing failures. I wonder if it would also help with fuel economy due to less friction compared to a bushing.
Ronnieroadster

The bushing/bearing never rotates unless clutchpedal is down...so can´t affect fueleconomy in any measurable way.

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by ronnieroadster

making the bushing out of oil-lite bronze bearing stock would be the easiest solution to the problem. While i personally would never run a bronze bushing in this situation its really the best way to go. My personal experience that being extremely high mileage using a pilot bearing i have never experienced any bearing failures. I wonder if it would also help with fuel economy due to less friction compared to a bushing.
Ronnieroadster

lol!!!!!

[jrvariel48]

Ram Clutch responded to me today and told me the hole in the flywheel is 1.575.
I ordered another pilot bearing to check the size. Maybe the first one I received was a little small (1.572). If not, I'll have my buddy make me an oilite bushing.
Thank you to everyone that responded and I'll check back when the new bearing arrives.
Thanks Joe

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by Ronnieroadster

Making the bushing out of oil-lite bronze bearing stock would be the easiest solution to the problem. While I personally would never run a bronze bushing in this situation its really the best way to go. My personal experience that being extremely high mileage using a pilot bearing I have never experienced any bearing failures. I wonder if it would also help with fuel economy due to less friction compared to a bushing.
Ronnieroadster

Maybe it would sound like a 'gear drive' when you have the clutch in? All those ball bearings knocking around . . . has to be cool doesn't it?

[Tim Ayers]

Just measured Tardel's bronze bushing and it came to 1.577" on the nose.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

Just measured Tardel's bronze bushing and it came to 1.577" on the nose.

With a Ford T5 you would be in business, the pilot bearing size of the input shaft is .668 and believe the original Ford is around .669. But the S10 input shaft pilot bearing requires about .590 I think, so it would still require some type of reducer bushing.

[GOSFAST]

Hi Joe, brought this back up to give you some sizes I finally got a chance to measure with respect to an OEM flywheel and an OEM pilot bushing!

This is NOT any aftermarket pieces, this is all Ford!

The flywheel bore for the pilot bushing measures 1.573" +/- .0001".

The pilot brg itself measures 1.574", also +/- .0001".

You can see the "press-fit" should be about .001" (nominal) The "press-fit" on the pieces in the photos below is EXACTLY .00125", "dead-on", no guesswork.

(Add) You cannot use "Verniers" (calipers) to get these accurate numbers, they just aren't accurate enough for this type work? Takes a "mike" and a good bore gauge.

Mart, thank you!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Joe, on a side note, the tools left today, you'll have them tomorrow according to the Post Office!

[Mart]

Gary - typo on pilot brg diameter above...

[jrvariel48]

Originally Posted by GOSFAST

Hi Joe, brought this back up to give you some sizes I finally got a chance to measure with respect to an OEM flywheel and an OEM pilot bushing!

This is NOT any aftermarket pieces, this is all Ford!

The flywheel bore for the pilot bushing measures 1.573" +/- .0001".

The pilot brg itself measures 1.574", also +/- .0001".

You can see the "press-fit" should be about .001" (nominal) The "press-fit" on the pieces in the photos below is EXACTLY .00125", "dead-on", no guesswork.

(Add) You cannot use "Verniers" (calipers) to get these accurate numbers, they just aren't accurate enough for this type work? Takes a "mike" and a good bore gauge.

Mart, thank you!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Joe, on a side note, the tools left today, you'll have them tomorrow according to the Post Office!

Thanks Gary I appreciate it!! Why does Ram make the flywheel opening 1.575?? I don't get it!!