Model A head, and other questions on the banger

[jnunez1955]

so im building a mild 4 banger, for a daily driver.
im deciding on which head to use...but i cant really find much information
whats the stock compression on a original model A head
and whats the compression on a C (1932) or b head?
i dont really wanna to spent the extra dough on an after market one or a aluminum one....but i would like to hear your opinion on the matter first.

will it be for a daily driver and around 70-80 hp
i plan on using a hc head (not sure what type i should go with) counter balance crank, lighten flywheel.
FSI electronic ignition, header, and a b camshaft(not sure on the carb yet either...whats your opinion), and a weber carb.

whats your opinion on the parts i plan on using? good bad, okay? should i switch up some parts?

[jnunez1955]

also, whats your opinion on babbit vs inserted bearings? is it a waste of extra money?

[1931 flamingo]

These questions might be better answered on the H.A.M.B. message board, there is a special "banger" section.
Paul in CT

[James Rogers]

These are good questions for here. This is not just a purest site it is for any questions about Model A's and era correct parts. I don't see any hot rod question here just questions about improving reliability and performance.

As for the questions:

Stock compression is 4.22-1 very low but works
Police head 4.5-1 better but still low
32 "B" head 4.7-1 better still but still too low for your projected HP
Snyder head old 5.7-1 best money you will spend on performance
Snyder head new 6.0-1 even better


As for the rest, you might want to PM me or call me and ask your questions because I talk better than I type.

[LeroyM]

Model A and daily driver doesn't go so well together. Not that it can't be done, but if you're planning on making it a true daily driver you will want to look into a complete rebuild on the whole drive train or a different drive train all together to be able to keep up with modern highway speeds and safety requirements.

[jnunez1955]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by LeroyM

Model A and daily driver doesn't go so well together. Not that it can't be done, but if you're planning on making it a true daily driver you will want to look into a complete rebuild on the whole drive train or a different drive train all together to be able to keep up with modern highway speeds and safety requirements.

ya...i plan on rebuilding the entire engine and with a later tranny with hydraulic brakes all the way around.
in town...traffic is usually 45 and under.
i feel confident that a model a engine can pull it off and handle it if its build right.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by LeroyM

Model A and daily driver doesn't go so well together. Not that it can't be done, but if you're planning on making it a true daily driver you will want to look into a complete rebuild on the whole drive train or a different drive train all together to be able to keep up with modern highway speeds and safety requirements.

I drive mine as I would any of my other cars even on the freeway. I bet it is as safe as many of the jap krap junk I see daily. BTW, mine is visibly bone stock but is pushing 80HP and will do freeway speed all day long. This can be verified by several here.

[V4F]

ive been driving mine "DAILY" for 6 yrs now . it takes regular maintainance , patience & a good motor . mine is insert , counterwieghed , balanced , 20# off the flywheel , down draft 97 , cam , header , etc . mileage is not great but i love driving it ! if you get it to be a daily driver you wont be sorry . the talk , looks , comments are daily also . much fun !!!!!!!!!! ............... steve

[PC/SR]

I dont think a B cam is going to give you 70-80 horses. You should talk to Jim Brierely, Bill Stipe, or Dema Elgin on cam design. Check Dennis Pirrano's site http://modelaparts.net/dynosheets.htm/dynosheets.html for dyno tests of different combinations. Ron Kelley also has tested combinations. http://www.amuffler.com/dyno/dyno2.htm. I dont want to open an old debate, but IMHO, PROPERLY restored babbitt can handle it if the bearing grooves and reliefs are done Henry's way. There is an article in teh Restorer a few issues back about that. Get a 3.54 or 3.27 rear end or an overdrive to keep the RPMs reasonable and you can cruise at 60 or more provided the rest of the car can handle it. For the power you want you might be looking at at least a dual carb set up. 70-80 hp is not a "mild 4 banger" but a pretty hot A, depending I guess on your definition of "mild." If most of your driving is 45 mph in town you just dont need that much power. Define your use and goal first, then build to that. Trouble is, you start on the speed stuff and you get to like it. Good luck with the project. Sounds like fun.
PS to James Rogers, you type fine. Keep on posting.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by jnunez1955

in town...traffic is usually 45 and under.

With that kind of speed and around town driving you don't NEED to do anything other then maintain a stock Model A as a daily driver. Didn't they drive them daily when they were new?

The choice is yours but I'd save my money and drive it stock, maybe an HC head.

[popcorn-guy]

Originally Posted by PC/SR

I dont think a B cam is going to give you 70-80 horses. You should talk to Jim Brierely, Bill Stipe, or Dema Elgin on cam design. Check Dennis Pirrano's site http://modelaparts.net/dynosheets.htm/dynosheets.html for dyno tests of different combinations. Ron Kelley also has tested combinations. http://www.amuffler.com/dyno/dyno2.htm. I dont want to open an old debate, but IMHO, PROPERLY restored babbitt can handle it if the bearing grooves and reliefs are done Henry's way. There is an article in teh Restorer a few issues back about that. Get a 3.54 or 3.27 rear end or an overdrive to keep the RPMs reasonable and you can cruise at 60 or more provided the rest of the car can handle it. For the power you want you might be looking at at least a dual carb set up. 70-80 hp is not a "mild 4 banger" but a pretty hot A, depending I guess on your definition of "mild." If most of your driving is 45 mph in town you just dont need that much power. Define your use and goal first, then build to that. Trouble is, you start on the speed stuff and you get to like it. Good luck with the project. Sounds like fun.
PS to James Rogers, you type fine. Keep on posting.

I would like to second PC/SR's above comment on contacting Jim Brierely. In the latest F.A.S.T. publication he addresses just such a motor. http://www.hotforhotfours.com/newsletter.html This will provide the contact information that you need to contact Jim. Ask him to send you a copy of the article and consider joining as you'll find it quite interesting and perhaps a lot of fun as well if you choose to participate. The best to you and your project.

[PC/SR]

Thank you Popcorn guy. I checked my mail after writing the above and saw Jim Brierely's article in the FAST magazine on Building a Mild Engine. Jim's definition of a mild engine is a little different than mine, but then he runs at Bonneville while I just putt around. Check the article for sure, lots of good info, and joining FAST is informative and fun.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Some of these thoughts just 'kill me' because I think some of you are truly sincere in believing what you typed. I like Mike's thought about didn't they drive them daily when they were new! Duhh.........

In all seriousness, it honestly does not take many (if any) modifications to maintain 50mph or less in a Model A if everything is within original specifications. Now just like most of us would not drive a Chevette w/ 100,000 miles in the left lane on the German Autobahn with their flow of traffic, the same applies to driving a mechanically worn-out Model A at 50mph.

Reading between the lines based on a couple of comments you made, if you are thinking you can have a Model A engine rebuilt without spending much money, IMO you chose the wrong vehicle! Spending the extra dough for higher compression is something that I feel is prudent. Spending the money for a brand new Stipe camshaft is another thing that is prudent. I know some people out there brag about their "reground" camshaft and how wonderful it is, but I have no financial stake in either type however I do have a bunch of experience with engines that have had both type cams, and IMO the new cam is the one that outperformed the "regrind" based on the entire drivetrain we typically spec out at my shop.

Now here's how I see a daily driver broken down financially. To take a typical 'restored' eBay Model A and turn it into a driver capable of safe, right-lane freeway speeds, then a minimum of a 60 horse rebuilt engine consisting of a H/C head, a new cam, oversized intake valves, correctly poured babbit, and a thoroughly balanced engine will be needed. Prices will be all over the place for this but generally speaking, the minimum will be around $3,000.00. On the outside will need to be a properly rebuilt distributor and properly rebuilt carburetor. These are two items that consistantly are found to have been poorly rebuilt and can severely limit horsepower capabilities.

The next area that will need to be looked at it the rear end. I am a huge fan of the 3:54 gear ratio because it adds as much as 4-5 mph at freeway speeds over the stock ratio. Following the rear end will be the brakes in which one can usually plan on investing $800-$1,000 and some of their time bring each, & every item back within factory specifications. Good quality new Cast iron drums are a must have too. Next, ensuring the spindle bolts (King Pins) are tight, the steering balls are all round, and the steering gearbox is adjusted properly and within specifcations is a must for safety. And finally, IMO no "driver" Model A should be without a good quality shock absorber on each corner of the vehicle. The control and stability that properly operating shocks afford to a Model A's safety should make this a mandatory item. Now, the problem with all of these above mentioned items is that in all liklihood, you will need to spend over $5,000 to make these operations, ...and more probable in the $7k-8k range, --which most feel is too much money. When I ask "why" is that too much money, the typical response is I just want a Driver. When I ask why their steering has so much play, or the brakes nearly go to the floor, or there are no shocks on the car, they just act like I don't get it or understand.

.

[Terry, NJ]

Brent, I'm taking your comments under serious advisment. They seem right when one thinks about it. A couple of things however. The 3.54 rear gears, Is that with 16" or 19" wheels? Or isn't there that much difference between actual wheel + Tire diameters? Or with a 16" wheel configuration would you change you preference to the higher rear ratio? Also do the brakes work more efficiently with the smalller Dia wheels? And lastly, Shouldn't the flywheel be lightened somewhat?
Terry

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Some of these thoughts just 'kill me' because I think some of you are truly sincere in believing what you typed. I like Mike's thought about didn't they drive them daily when they were new! Duhh.........

In all seriousness, it honestly does not take many (if any) modifications to maintain 50mph or less in a Model A if everything is within original specifications. Now just like most of us would not drive a Chevette w/ 100,000 miles in the left lane on the German Autobahn with their flow of traffic, the same applies to driving a mechanically worn-out Model A at 50mph.

Reading between the lines based on a couple of comments you made, if you are thinking you can have a Model A engine rebuilt without spending much money, IMO you chose the wrong vehicle! Spending the extra dough for higher compression is something that I feel is prudent. Spending the money for a brand new Stipe camshaft is another thing that is prudent. I know some people out there brag about their "reground" camshaft and how wonderful it is, but I have no financial stake in either type however I do have a bunch of experience with engines that have had both type cams, and IMO the new cam is the one that outperformed the "regrind" based on the entire drivetrain we typically spec out at my shop.

Now here's how I see a daily driver broken down financially. To take a typical 'restored' eBay Model A and turn it into a driver capable of safe, right-lane freeway speeds, then a minimum of a 60 horse rebuilt engine consisting of a H/C head, a new cam, oversized intake valves, correctly poured babbit, and a thoroughly balanced engine will be needed. Prices will be all over the place for this but generally speaking, the minimum will be around $3,000.00. On the outside will need to be a properly rebuilt distributor and properly rebuilt carburetor. These are two items that consistantly are found to have been poorly rebuilt and can severely limit horsepower capabilities.

The next area that will need to be looked at it the rear end. I am a huge fan of the 3:54 gear ratio because it adds as much as 4-5 mph at freeway speeds over the stock ratio. Following the rear end will be the brakes in which one can usually plan on investing $800-$1,000 and some of their time bring each, & every item back within factory specifications. Good quality new Cast iron drums are a must have too. Next, ensuring the spindle bolts (King Pins) are tight, the steering balls are all round, and the steering gearbox is adjusted properly and within specifcations is a must for safety. And finally, IMO no "driver" Model A should be without a good quality shock absorber on each corner of the vehicle. The control and stability that properly operating shocks afford to a Model A's safety should make this a mandatory item. Now, the problem with all of these above mentioned items is that in all liklihood, you will need to spend over $5,000 to make these operations, ...and more probable in the $7k-8k range, --which most feel is too much money. When I ask "why" is that too much money, the typical response is I just want a Driver. When I ask why their steering has so much play, or the brakes nearly go to the floor, or there are no shocks on the car, they just act like I don't get it or understand.

.

[Jim Brierley]

Thanks guys! You will need more than a B cam, contact me at [email protected] and I'll send the article.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Terry, NJ

A couple of things however. The 3.54 rear gears, Is that with 16" or 19" wheels? Or isn't there that much difference between actual wheel + Tire diameters? Or with a 16" wheel configuration would you change you preference to the higher rear ratio?

Also do the brakes work more efficiently with the smalller Dia wheels?

And lastly, Shouldn't the flywheel be lightened somewhat?

Typically, everything coming out of my shop has stock size wheels & tires on it. You can do the math and figure tire roll-out to compare it with the alternate sized wheel/tire combinations and see what effect it would have.

I suppose that the brakes would indeed be more efficient with a smaller diameter wheel/tire, but lets just say the wheel/tire combination was 3% smaller, ...does that mean the brakes would be 3% better? Probably, but not much to brag about IMO.

Lightening the flywheel does not increase horsepower. The only thing I feel like it really helps you do is make faster gear changes. It does takes some stress off of the rear main but I think we could all add things that would make the combination better, ...but is it needed to make a reliable daily driver?


.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Brent,
"It does takes some stress off of the rear main but I think we could all add things that would make the combination better, ...but is it needed to make a reliable daily driver?"

?? What is needed to make a reliable daily driver? The weight of the flywheel, or the removal of some of the flywheel weight?

[Vic in E-TN]

I totally agree with Brent's estimate of $7-8,000 to put a good engine, brakes, carb, distributor, steering, etc on the car. I would add an overdrive to the mix adding another $2,000 to the mix. This will make a car that you will not be pushing to the limit every time you want to take it out. Hopefully that does not scare many people away. This assumes that a person does most of the work themselves except for the engine rebuild. Everything does not have to be done at one time. My preference is to attack the brakes first with cast iron drums a must.

Vic

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Tom, I think there comes a point where someone needs to determine when it is good enough. While I will agree that less flywheel weight is a good thing, as someone mentioned above, these cars were daily drivers for years with a heavy flywheel. It does make someone wonder why everyone is in such a 'Hell Fire' hurry these days. Maybe we should all slow down a bit and enjoy the car for how it was manufactured??


.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Tom, I think there comes a point where someone needs to determine when it is good enough. While I will agree that less flywheel weight is a good thing, as someone mentioned above, these cars were daily drivers for years with a heavy flywheel. It does make someone wonder why everyone is in such a 'Hell Fire' hurry these days. Maybe we should all slow down a bit and enjoy the car for how it was manufactured??


.

My mistake! I read your statement as "it is" instead of "is it", so I thought you were saying something was needed to be done to make it a reliable daily driver.

I agree, slow down and enjoy the ride!!!