Slow engine turnover TEMPORARILY SOLVED I Have a new ?

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by foxfire42

Marco, I crimped ends on a heavy stranded copper wire and ran it from a bolt on the starter to the bolt securing the positive battery cable to the crossmember. Apparently it was just what the starter needed at least for now.

Ok this is a long shot, but you've messed with the ground strap connection at the cross member. Leave it exactly as is but disconnect the other end from the starter and try it again. If it turns slow again be sure there is plenty of bare metal where the starter contacts the flywheel housing.

Every other point of contact should work itself out in just few miles of driving.

[steve s]

Go to an auto parts store and get a short braided grounding strap--maybe a foot long. Attach one end to the positive battery clamp bolt using a 2nd nut; attach the other end to the closest bolt on the transmission. That will provide a plenty direct path to the starter mounting holes. Simple, cheap, easy to undo, and not too ugly.

Steve

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by steve s

Go to an auto parts store and get a short braided grounding strap--maybe a foot long. Attach one end to the positive battery clamp bolt using a 2nd nut; attach the other end to the closest bolt on the transmission. That will provide a plenty direct path to the starter mounting holes. Simple, cheap, easy to undo, and not too ugly.

Steve

Hey Steve, look at the first paragraph in post #15 of this thread. Are you of the opinion we/she could do this and it would remain obscure enough to pass in fine-point competitions?

[steve s]

Originally Posted by foxfire42

Marco, I crimped ends on a heavy stranded copper wire and ran it from a bolt on the starter to the bolt securing the positive battery cable to the crossmember. Apparently it was just what the starter needed at least for now.

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Mike, the problem is that I think Barb's vehicle is probably a fine-point car where running that cable is not realy an option. ...

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Hey Steve, look at the first paragraph in post #15 of this thread. Are you of the opinion we/she could do this and it would remain obscure enough to pass in fine-point competitions?

Brent,

I did notice that. I also noticed that the fine-point issue was not raised by the owner, but a "probably" speculated by someone else. Also, I noticed that she has apparently already opted to run another wire up to the starter, which judges could not miss; the grounding strap I suggested at least isn't in your face unless you are seriously on your back under the car, or you've pulled the carpeting back, removed the battery access plate, and got down on your knees to see if there's anything incorrect off on the edges. But, I've never been involved in fine point judging.

My impression is that the car has Float-A-Motors and the lady was primarily interested in getting the car running reliably: "With the rubber pad set on the rear motor mounts insulating the motor from the frame where does adequate bonding of the frame and motr occure?"

Steve

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by steve s

Brent,

I did notice that. I also noticed that the fine-point issue was not raised by the owner, but a "probably" speculated by someone else. Also, I noticed that she has apparently already opted to run another wire up to the starter, which judges could not miss;

I understood Barb to say she added the extra cable as a test. She then indicated she wants to repair it correctly. Whether it's for judging or just personal satisfaction it's a moot point in my opinion.

While it isn't uncommon for folks to opt for all kinds of "fixes" to make or keep their cars roadworthy, Barb clearly isn't choosing that path.

[foxfire42]

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The guess is correct about it being a Blue Ribbon Vehicle. Although it may not be entered again. I don't want to be faced with unfixing and refixing fixes should I choose to enter her one more time. It did not fair very well in the start and idle so that's one reason, besides I don't want to embarrass myself should I take her to a local show and have to have help from the "boys" to push start me.

[theHIGHLANDER]

You got some good advice regarding the grounding and it's path. I might tend to agree with a well concealed additional ground, and I can probably go out and look at my PU to see where you could do it. Now I reference Packards often, and I'll do it again. All of them had an additional ground strap that bonded the motor mounts to a chassis ground. Barring that path, the other option is to be sure that at least 1/2 of the OEM Model A motor mount bolts and spacers are seeing the same bare steel that the battery ground strap sees. it might mean some deeper digging, but that's a real key to good electrical, good grounds. I almost ALWAYS employ a hidden star washer and some grease under anything in a ground path. Once done, I don't like to re-do, and they seem to be a fine answer, even on a fine point resoration. You can't see a star washer under a strap, and I've always said the day I go to a show where they make me disassemble my car for judging I QUIT!!

[foxfire42]

AWK! I hope none of the judging committee reads HIGHLANDER's last sentance. They may just like the idea.............

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by foxfire42

AWK! I hope none of the judging committee reads HIGHLANDER's last sentance. They may just like the idea.............

One thing I always hang my hat on is that a freshly restored Model-A should be just like a brand new Model-A was. Therefore if these extra/concealed cables weren't necessary back then, ...why now??

[steve s]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

... if these extra/concealed cables weren't necessary back then, ...why now??

can you say, powder coating?

[pat in Santa Cruz]

I usually use the extra strap from the cross member ground bolt to a trans top bolt. But on a high point car, that will not work. I suggested a hidden ground strap on the motor mount only because Barb said her engine pans were powder coated. That would be a lot of work, but would be hidden.

With a clean contact between the frame and bolt, pan and nuts and oil pan bolts, the ground should be good, assuming the cross member contact is clean too. Perhaps a little dremel work where the nuts and bolt heads touch the pan and frame or where the pan contacts the frame (which would be hidden) might do it with less effort than pulling the motor mount..

[montanajohn]

Two comments. First, in wiring the breaker panel in my house, the main feed into the building is a large aluminum cable that connects to a copper bus bar at the panel. Aluminum is very prone to oxidizing and causing resistance and heat. That's why there are few old trailer homes -- they have all burned-up because of aluminum wiring that they can no longer use. I smeared the connection (power off) with an anti-oxidant goop, as per code. Maybe that would help make better grounds on my Model-A. Haven't tried it yet. Second, I had a car whose starter would go dead if I drove even a few miles, parked, and tried to start it. The starter was near the exhaust pipe. The armature bushing would heat-up, and was worn enough so that when it expanded just a few thousandths, the armature would drop down and short out. When the engine cooled, the bushing would contract and lift the armature, and the car would start. It took a while plus some new bad word combinations to figure that out.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by montanajohn

Two comments. First, in wiring the breaker panel in my house, the main feed into the building is a large aluminum cable that connects to a copper bus bar at the panel. Aluminum is very prone to oxidizing and causing resistance and heat. That's why there are few old trailer homes -- they have all burned-up because of aluminum wiring that they can no longer use. I smeared the connection (power off) with an anti-oxidant goop, as per code. Maybe that would help make better grounds on my Model-A. Haven't tried it yet. Second, I had a car whose starter would go dead if I drove even a few miles, parked, and tried to start it. The starter was near the exhaust pipe. The armature bushing would heat-up, and was worn enough so that when it expanded just a few thousandths, the armature would drop down and short out. When the engine cooled, the bushing would contract and lift the armature, and the car would start. It took a while plus some new bad word combinations to figure that out.

John, if you have this conversation with a qualified electrician he will tell you, in no short order, AC electricity reacts to aluminum differently than DC current. DC current is very prone to corrosion at contact points, where as AC current is not. Mobile homes are no more susceptible to fire than stick built homes. The reason most don't last as long as stick built is, they are built as disposable homes and most are never set on permanent foundations leading to disintegration and rot from underneath. There are probably less mobile home fires than fires in conventional home fires.

[theHIGHLANDER]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

One thing I always hang my hat on is that a freshly restored Model-A should be just like a brand new Model-A was. Therefore if these extra/concealed cables weren't necessary back then, ...why now??

I agree 100% regarding extra cables. It really shouldn't be needed, but when you've purchased that really well done car that can score high but you didn't do the work, and from A to Z that ground path is considered in your own personal approach, what do you do? Re-restore just because? I wouldn't. I'd solve the case and move forward, and enjoy the car and the rest of it's quality. I had a client who puchased a high end sport phaeton, something around $210K, and it was beautiful. Less than the cost to restore, but that hot start-slow start-dead battery syndrome. Between the missing small ground straps, excess pint at the starter hole and on the starter, the too small battery because the actual size wasn't available any longer...

So in essense, if you consider it from the start (no pun intended) the issue never shows up. And star washers, wasn't there a conversation about individual craftsmanship not long ago? To my way of thinking, adding some additional grip at a ground to ensure a long lasting contact and a schmutz of grease to repel corrosion...